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Did Jesus have a “pre-human” existence? Anthony Buzzard verses Peter Karavas

CLICK HERE TO WATCH THE VIDEO

Did Jesus pre-exist as Michael the Archangel?  Or did Jesus first come into existence when born of Mary?

Anthony

PeterK

Find more information by clicking below.

DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING?  WAS HE CREATED?

THE SCRIPTURAL CASE FOR JESUS’ PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE

DOES JESUS HAVE A BODY OF FLESH?

WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?

49 comments to Did Jesus have a “pre-human” existence? Anthony Buzzard verses Peter Karavas

  • Richard Tazzyman

    Hello Bro Peter & all my friends at friends of Jehovahs Witnesses.Bro Peter our class Kensington Bible students are hosting a 3day Convention in the State of N.S.W Not very far out of the city of Sydney.It will be for 3days,starting from 11th May after 3P.M Till Sunday 13th ,finishing around Lunch Time.Total cost will be $160.00 Aust.This is the first time for many years that we have had a Convention in Sydney& one of the reasons we are holding it there is that we have a few ex Jws who are Interested in studying with the Bible Students.If you could make it known that we would like any of the Bretheren who could find the time to attend this convention ,we would realy appreciate it.Christian Love Bro Richard.

  • Ellis Green

    Peter, thank you for those links, much appreciated. As an exJW I was taught Jesus became King in 1914 not 1874 so I keep an open mind because JWs used dates like 1925, 1941, 1975 – all failed – for end of system so I’m sceptical about dates, but I do believe the “sign of the times” Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 was definitely fulfilled in 20th century. So the Second Coming is getting much closer.

    Zionsherald, great talk on that link! Animation of woman and dragon was good!

    Thank you both

    • Love and Peace

      Hey Ellis. I don’t do dates either. 1874 was actually a failed Second Adventist date that was just switched to “invisible.” when their expectations didn’t come to fruition. They were wrong every time so why would it be correct now? 1878 failed to see the bride go to heaven to they made that invisible. Jesus knew the bible more than anyone. Why couldn’t he add up 6,000 years and get 1872 -1874? Why couldn’t he add up from Jacob to Jesus and then parallel it with 1845 years? Why couldn’t he add 1335 days to 539AD and get 1874? I don’t do dates anymore either. He told us no man knows. Not that those in the end would know we are to keep on the watch because NO ONE knows the day of the hour. Not no man “Now” knows. I love the Bible Students but for some of them you may as well Chapter and verse the Studies in the Scriptures. If it’s not in those volumes it’s not truth for them. We have very many of Russelites.

      • just say sweet and good

        You cannot really say Russelites unless you add on Arias of Alexandra, Polycarp, Justin Maryter, Iraneous, Tertulilian, Franic David, George Fox, Issac Newton, William Winston, George Storrs, Henry Grew and then say C. T. Russell. They didn’t live in a vacuum and neither do we. We must know church history because We stand on the shoulders of giants. Between the truths taught by the disciples and our Lord and these great teachers we have everything we need to light our walk by faith, not by sight or credulity .

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Love and Peace – Hi. Nice to hear from you. I would like to learn from you since you are correcting us. What is your thought? Do you feel that the days of Daniel are all in the future? I mean the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days?

        If you object to the invisible presence, do you believe that Jesus is not an invisible spirit being and that if he were in the room with us we could actually see him?

        The reformers tied the 1260 days (3 1/2 times) to 1260 years of the Antichrist system (the Papacy) persecuting the true saints largely during the Dark Ages. This is well documented in the famous books published in the 1800s by the Adventists called, “The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers.” So do you disagree then with the reformers conclusions and put these times future from today as literal days?

        Matthew 24:36 (NASV) “”But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

        If you believe that after Jesus returns that Matt 24 36 shows that there therefore must be no Saints on earth recognizing his return after his return, then would you also conclude that after Jesus returns that neither the angels nor Jesus himself would be aware that he had returned?

        If Jesus has already returned, we find confirmation in the Daniel 12 signs of Michael (meaning “who is as God” = Jesus) standing up at the time of the end? It seems we have been seeing these signs for well over 100 years.
        * Knowledge increased
        * Travel increased
        * Time of trouble such as never was World Wars and conflicts on unprecedented historical scales
        * Israel delivered (in process – returned to land and a nation again)_
        * Book of Daniel unsealed = Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures. If not, then when and how unsealed? Or do you believe the meaning of the book is yet to be revealed in the future?

        By the way, my expectations have and are coming to fruition. Wouldn’t you agree that in 1878 that Israel established their first Jewish settlement – Petah Tikva?

        Interestingly, Brother Russel is the only one we know of in history that actually predicted two future dates and got them correct – 1878 and 1914. His mistake in 1914, was not the date, but rather in expecting things to wrap up soon after that date.

        • Love and Peace

          I’m not saying he’s not invisibly present. Now as to whether it’s 1874 or not is what’s up for discussion. Jesus could have easily added 6,000 years. Why not? Because he wasn’t to know the day or hour. We aren’t to know either. All dates have failed in the past and calling this one invisible doesn’t make it more of a true date. The second Adventists believed 1874 was to the the return. It failed. They didn’t want to redo the date so they claimed it was invisible and Russel clinged to the date. Every date and I mean every date has failed. So why calling this one invisible make it truer?

          • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

            We are told to “watch” and all the signs and info was given by Jesus for us to identify the time of his presence, yet I do note he never said to calculate and estimate but to prepare and be ready. Each would have oil, some enough, others not enough.. It seems that those without enough were certain of a time or date and therefore thought they were good to go, yet he comes as a thief, the thief never indicates when he will arrive nor does he announce it but simply comes and steals. All with or without enough oil will be found as good and faithful servants or not so much. Jesus kept things very simple, and It would seem that since he would have know the exact date of Adams creation he would have been able to calculate 6000 years and tell the disciples any date they needed but he disnt know dates and times but he did have a good estimate it seems from what he told them. Seems to be the point for us, watch and be ready, I wouldnt rely on times and dates but would simply do my best to be found faithful wether things kick off 2morrow or another 50 years. I guess I take the neutral approach to the whole matter. Simple black and white or in this case Red.
            Lee

            • Anonymous

              Agreed. I don’t do dates.my question is Jesus made a big deal of watching for we don’t know the day or hour that he comes. Now that here’s here what we we watching for? I think there is an event we are waiting on.

              • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                It seems that for those who are watching and have realized this that it would be all the more important to PREPARE, do right with given talent, be faithful with what one has been given, ensure you have enough oil, etc… Exa Mat.25:21) Jesus said well done to faithful servant..I set you over many things…
                Matt 24:46-47) Jesus said blessed is that servant…. He will set him over many things…Etc
                Other examples of this is found in Jesus parables… Many are called… Those who see he is here and and prepare… Few are chosen… Some may see but not be prepared either by delaying the masters coming as did the evil servant or by predicting it would be soon and not preparing for a long wait as in the virgins. A contrast, but it is the same leason point from Jesus simple teaching. The bride class is being prepared now, most do not watch and are not preparing and will miss it. Either way you must be faithful unto death to recieve the crown of life, and to be faithful you must have 1st been called and responded to the call. I personally feel those called who respond, recognize the Lords presence and act by taking all their given talents, aka time, energies, focus, funds, etc and put it to good use in the masters service.
                Again My take is neutral, I like the aimple approach and the simple lessons we can learn from the black and white or again in this case Red.
                Lee

              • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                In short, we are waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. The bride of Christ will be completed eventually.
                Lee

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Anonymous – Thanks. We are each doing our best to understand the Bible and I respect your comment. I not that the 70 weeks time prophecy of Daniel 9 brings us to Jesus first Advent (end of 69 weeks = AD 29 = Jesus baptized, etc.) Let me share a scripture that seems to attach importance to time prophecy.

                Daniel 12:7-12 (NKJV)
                7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time;[3.5 x 360 days = 1260 day/years] and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
                8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
                9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
                10 “Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
                11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
                12 “Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

                It seems that the statement “the wise will understand” is in reference to the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. As a matter of fact, in Luke 12, Jesus seems to apply the 1335 days to the time of is return.

                Since time prophecy establishes the time of Jesus’ first advent, it should not surprise us if even more time prophecies are found in the Bible as one of the ways to establish the time when Jesus’ had invisibly returned.

                Thanks again for sharing. It is good that we have the Christian liberty to discuss and even disagree in Christian love.

                • Love and Peace

                  Again I know that line of arguement. Now explain to me why Jesus couldn’t have done that. Plus the line of reasoning for 1844 was strong and nothing happened. Same with 1874. Jesus said no one knows the day or hour. No one last or present. We can fumble with adding those numbers. Nothing happened so the second Adventists made it invisible. Russell accepted this date. As Bob Carnegie said. If you make it invisible you can prove anything.

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Love and Peace – Thanks.

                    You asked, “Now explain to me why Jesus couldn’t have done that.” I do not understand the question. Could not have done what?

                    1844 was a wrong date predicted by William Miller. Yes, I agree with you that he was a wrong date. So if Miller got it wrong, does that mean know one else is allowed to try to figure it out?

                    For 1874 is your point that nothing happened? If that is your point, why do you think then that Bible Students believe Jesus returned in 1874 if nothing happened? Just because Russell said so?

                    I can comment on 1874, but I would first like to understand where you are coming from. I think you mentioned earlier that he is now invisibly present. Is that right?

                    • Love and Peace

                      They believe he returned in 1874 believe Russell did. Many many bible students are volumites. Russell accepted this date because second Adventists did. Every date has been wrong. Making this one an invisible fulfillment doesn’t make true.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      Now I would be glad to have a discussion with you just on scriptures.

                      You can say we Bible Students are volumites and that Russell only accepted the date because he believed what the Adventists told him. If that satisfies you, well, you’ve made your point. I just disagree, but you are welcome to think what you want. However, if you want to discuss scriptures, I am here for you.

                      Since you are mentioning dates, do you say 1878 was wrong for ending Israel’s disfavor. They acquired their first Jewish Settlement in Israel in 1878. Isn’t that remarkable how he got it right?

                      What about 1914? That war broke Church / State rule and ended the divine right of kings. WWI was the cause of the Balfour Declaration in 1917 setting aside a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. Yeh, Russell over expected, but he got the date right, didn’t he? What if he had picked 1911 or 1923? No, he picked 1914. Just luck?

                    • just say sweet and good

                      You can disagree all you want but you’re not being honest with yourself. For example you disagree with David Rice’s Chronolgy on 2043 because it contradicts the second volume. Not because you have any real refutation other than “That servant said”. And many bible Students only hold to what’s in the volumes. At general convention someone told me David’s chronology contradicts russells book. For some you may as well chapter and verse the volumes. They are russellites. That’s what’s wrong. Look at volume four. It’s full of clippings showing that their day was the end. 1914 didn’t happen so they just adjusted it. I’m sure many people believe that the spirit led them to their convictions. But every date has been wrong and 1874 is no different. Each group including Millerites were certain they had it right. When 1874 and 1878 failed they just made the fulfillment invisible. Well if they didn’t switch it to invisible it would be false. The saints weren’t raised in 1878. They return didn’t happen in 1874 so they made them both invisible problem solved right. 1914 didn’t bring the saints glory so they changed it. 606-607 BC is historically incorrect. It’s false chronology. We need to be honest and say Russell was wrong. We aren’t in the millennium because some chronology said so. So Armageddon is a millennial age occurrence? No. We are 130 years in the millennium and that’s a lot of crown replacements.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Sweet and Good,

                      Thanks for being courageous and bold by sharing your thoughts. I can see you have a passion for this topic. The JW Organization would not permit different opinions on this type of discussion. This website is for that kind of opportunity to dialogue and I am glad that brothers and sisters who have different thoughts on chronology and time prophecy have a place to share their views and disagree.

                      You said, “1914 didn’t bring the saints glory so they changed it.” Yes, I agree with you that Brother Russell over expected what would happen shortly after 1914. He thought the heavenly bride would be completed sooner and I don’t think he expected over 100 years to elapse with the bride still not complete.

                      Perhaps someone at General Convention had a bad attitude about anyone disagreeing with Brother Russell’s chronology in Volume 2? If that is the case, I am sorry about that. Brother Russell was very clear in volume 6 about Christian liberty and I have found that the scriptures support this concept. So the brethren are not perfect. Some are more spiritually mature than others. I don’t worry about that. I just try to be the best New Creature that I can be. In being very direct in my comments, sometimes I may come across abrasive. If so, I apologize.

                      You said, “you’re not being honest with yourself. For example you disagree with David Rice’s Chronology on 2043 because it contradicts the second volume. Not because you have any real refutation other than “That servant said.” Now I will challenge you on this statement dear one. How do you know your judgement of me is true? My material on chronology is under my name at http://www.BibleChronology.org. What is it in my chronology material or discourses that is not based on honest scriptural evidence? If I have not been honest with myself, I am willing to change if you can help me.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Caution: FYI, JUST STAY SWEET AND GOOD, WE KNOW THIS ISN’T YOU OKAY, someone impersonating you, notice the difference in names.
                      Just say sweet and good, this is what I like about being with our association of Bible student brothers. We can all express our opinions without fear of reprisal or being kicked out from association.
                      Once you attend the General convention you will appreciate how all of the different ecclesias come together in discussion and never get distraught with each other.
                      I remember about 2012 two (2) brothers had the same scripture to speak on, in fact almost the entire convention had this and they looked at the same scripture but instead of seeing the difference in their viewpoint, they demonstrated how 2 people can see a scripture from 2 different views. I loved it!
                      Br. Peter is so honest, he is constantly thinking of ways to help our xJw brothers as they come out. The testimony meeting is just one of those undertakings.
                      He is passionate as I have found Br. Rice and many of our Bible student association of brothers to be.
                      I also find they are heartfelt in their beliefs and have seen them say humbly that what they thought on a particular subject warranted some additional prayerful consideration.
                      Isn’t it nice to be able to disagree and keep on discussing as one.Again I appreciate the hard work Br. Peter does here and mistakes are made by all of us but Jehovah blessed and saved me when he answered my prayers and put me in a smaller group that has a lot of understanding of the deeper things. Enjoying you and Br. Peter’s interchange, looking forward to more.
                      Might I suggest, please,Maybe it might be better for the person to go straight to Br. Peter instead of gossiping to you, just a suggestion. This is at least what the Bible suggests. Just an observation. Peace.

                    • Love and Peace

                      Yes I’ve been on that site before. Again it assumes that 606-607 was the destruction of Jerusalem. History and records show that 586/587 BC was it. Also if Jesus was to return 6,000 years later how come he couldn’t find 6,000 years by adding up numbers? Because it’s not for us to know. And no they didn’t have a bad attitude. This attitude is very common among the brethren. If that servant didn’t say it then it’s not Gospel. Bob carnegie has a perfect talk called “Are we really Bible Students”. And he’s right. We spend more time studying books about the Bible than the Bible itself. We are always looking to see what Russell said as if he is some inspired prophet. He was just a man. When I read some books they try to place Russell into types and antitypes. Bible Students basically are russelites. I have a Book of revelation commentary and they state that when Jesus was at the wedding in Cana that when he filled six pots they these are the six volumes. Or when the vials are poured out that these are the volumes. I listened to Bob Carnegie’s talk about how the scapegoat doesn’t represent the great company class because the great company doesn’t bear anyone’s sins and that it represents Jesus taking our wings away Bible Students quickly jumped to “That not what tabernacle Shadows says” even though he used the Bible in Hebrews to prove it. So sad that we look to a man for answers.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      You have brought up so many different topics to respond to. Thanks for the stimulating thoughts. I am walking into a meeting right now typing this message into my phone. For now let me just ask you one question. Let’s take the topic of evolution. Wouldn’t you agree that the consensus of the scientists and professors at the University’s is that man evolved and that he was not created? If so, doesn’t this mean we just can’t take the word of the scientist but need to dig deeper into the investigation ourselves?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      Sure you want to stick with that name? LOL

                      You are entitled to your opinion. I am glad you have the freedom to express it. My opinion is that your point of view is a great misrepresentation of the Bible Students overall. Not sure what commentary you were referring to, but I don’t recall ever hearing those views. Because of our liberty, there are always brethren on either side of the more strict or more liberal perspective. Most fall in the middle. However, you and the Elder mentioned are living in a different parallel universe than my experience.

                      So where do you find a better place to he than with Bible Students. I would like to meet them.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      I wanted to followup with your comment on BibleChronology.org. You said, “Yes I’ve been on that site before. Again it assumes that 606-607 was the destruction of Jerusalem. History and records show that 586/587 BC was it.”

                      In followup, I asked you about evolutionists and you agreed that scientists were wrong on this. So you don’t trust the scientists honesty, yet do you trust the anti Bible historical scholars for 586/587 BC?

                      The following Professor Furuli text is part of a long dialogue in 2009:

                      “The very backbone of the Neo-Babylonian chronology is VAT 4956… I made digital photographs of this tablet in Berlin, and analyzed it sign for sign (about 600) from a philological, linguistic and astronomical point of view (87 pages with this analysis is found in one of my books). My conclusion is that the positions of the moon better fit the year 588/87 than 568/67, and that would fit the 70-year chronology.”

                      The following is from Bible Student elder Jerry Leslie:

                      “Archaeologists misrepresent a reading of the VAT 4956 tablet regarding the moon’s position on Nisan 8, whereas the moon’s position on Nisan 9 is the actual date inscribed. Proponents of the year 587 for the fall of Jerusalem contend it was a scribal error and so support their historical bias. Contending that Nisan 8 points to the year 568 for the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar, avoids their rewriting of traditional chronology and accepted history. They attempt to force harmony to the secular record with the fiction of Nisan 8 to arrive at the contrived 587 date for the destruction of Jerusalem. This is nothing short of misrepresenting the record. This is the hazard of building historical consensus with non-Biblical sources.”

                      “The difference in the cuneiform marks for the numbers 8 or 9 is crucial in identifying the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar which extends earlier to his 18th year for the siege on Jerusalem. Here the correct mark for Nisan 9 only supports the year 588 for Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year. There are 13 sets of lunar positions on the VAT 4956 tablet. Only Some , but not all of these lunar positions are claimed to match the year 568 BC. Yet all 13 sets do match calculated positions for 20 years earlier at 588 BC for the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Consequently, his 18th year then indicates the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BC as the beginning of the Biblical 70 years for the desolation of Jerusalem until Cyrus.”

                      All of this information above is elaborated on in the following link: http://www.biblechronology.org/studies/EvidenceVAT4956.pdf

                    • Love and Peace

                      Evolution is a special topic for me. Scientist have fraudulently created evidence to back up their claims. For example they took a tooth and formed a whole specimen of some transition fossil creature to show evolution. This was known as the Piltdown Man. They have showed that this tooth belonged to a pig and yet refuse to take the exhibit down. Also, let’s take “Lucy” who is supposed to be a transitional fossil. The only part connecting her to “humans” is he knee joint. However the knee joint was founded several miles away from the rest of the remains. So it was just a chimp. We do need to dig deeper I agree. However Jesus said NO man knows they day or hour. Yes Bible Students claim they do. We have signs not dates. Not past nor future. And it’s not for us to know the times and seasons. Just because he utters those words to them back then doesn’t mean we know now. Every date has been wrong. Just because we make the date 1874 invisible doesn’t make it true. It’s just a string of false dates given by the second Adventists. Russell adopted it and spread it. He was wrong about many things. As Bob says “If you make something invisible then you can prove anything.” The 1878 was a false date claiming it was the resurrection of the saints. Well it failed so it must have been invisible. Even though 1 Thes says that they saints and those remaining would be caught up together. Not one before the other. 1881 nothing happened. 1914 a war broke out. But yet Gentile powers are still ruling. Miller was wrong and his followers were wrong. All these dates were given with the expectation that 1914 was the end. And it wasn’t. The tearing up the lease has been going on for over 100 years. We may not agree with the JWs but at least they reevaluate and make changes. We try to stick to a set of books that are full of errors and have the expectation that 1914 was the end. But many like to stick to what they know.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      I hope we can avoid a war. LOL

                      Okay, so far you haven’t quoted anything I said or wrote on BibleChronology.org and attempted to refute it. I am not convinced you have any idea of the evidence refuting the new chronolgy.

                      For now, let’s start with two dates that you say are false:

                      1878 – end of 1845 years of Jewish double, disfavor ended. First Jewish settlement established in Israel as favor returns to Israel of future dates.

                      1914 – World War 1 ended the divine right of kings, church/state rule and led to the Balfour Declaration in 1917, setting aside Palestine as a homeland for the Jews.

                      So do you view Russell’s dates as lucky guesses?

                    • Love and Peace

                      The movement of which you speak known as Zionism is not Biblical. Yes Israel will be restored to thier land but the nation known as Israel today is not it. The Bible clearly shows that Israel cannot be restored to their land until after 2 days (two-thousand year days) on the third day (Hosea 6:2) after they have crucified thier messiah. Each time Israel has been restored to their land its through obedience and repentance. This one is no different. Israel today has not repented. Israel will be removed from their land one more time during Jacobs Trouble. They are a secular movement and Balfour Declaration is for the secular nation of Israel. As Moses led the Israelites from Egypt after the passover and crossing through the sea so Jesus will lead Israel back out of the world (antitypical Egypt) to make a new covenant with them. Israel 1948 is not the fulfillment. Jonah is a type of both Christ and Israel. As Jonah was disobedient and went into the ship so Israel (who has not been called back to Israel by Gods means through repentence) has gone back. The waters around Jonah were in turmoil. Waters represent nations and we can see that Israel being in the middle east is causing turmoil. The only things left is to throw them back of their land and the “waters will calm down.” Then they will repent and be put back on their land as shown by him going back onto the land through repentance. Also Numbers 35 shows they cannot bgo back until the ministry of the high priest is complete. They are the antitypical manslayer and can only return after the bride is complete.God cannot deal with the bride and the jews at the same time. Only when the Bride is complete can God turn his attention back to gathering the jews. We know that Sarah and Hagar represent the covenants. However there is another picture. Sarah represents ISrael and when she died that represents God setting aside Israel. Then comes the search for the bride with Isaac. Then after the bride married Rebekah then the married Keturah showing his dealing with the Jews again. So Petah Tikva and Balfour Declaration and all those are part of the secular movement. Most of those jews are not real jews but are converts or european jews.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      If you as a student of scripture lived 200 years ago and someone told you that the Jews would return to their land before they repented, how would you have responded?

                      Click here and go to subhead: ISRAEL ALREADY CONVERTED WHEN THEY COME BACK TO THE LAND?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      Per Numbers 35, we cannot establish truth from types. Types merely can confirm, support or clarify truth already established by the clear statement of scriptures. An exception might be when the type is explained in the New Testament where Abraham’s wives as representing covenants in Galatians 4.

                      I nearly agree with you on Hosea 6:2, but look closer. The fifth thousand year day from Adam (beginning in 125 BC Gregorian Calendar Calendar) is when Jesus was crucified and Israel rejected their Messiah (29 AD); plus the sixth 1000- year day (beginning 874 AD), and now we are in morning of seventh 1000- year day (beginning 1874 AD), the third from the cross.

                      Now do you think Israel’s Double (1845 years) of Favor and Disfavor would BY CHANCE work out to 1878 (first Jewish settlement) and the extended double (1880 years) to 1948 (became a nation)?

                      ISRAEL’S DOUBLE
                      1813 BC Jacobs death. Israel’s period of favor begins
                      33 AD Israel’s rejection by Christ. Period of favor ends after 1845 years. Period of disfavor begins.
                      1878 AD Period of disfavor ends after 1845 years. Berlin Congress allows Jews to purchase land. First Jewish settlement established, Petih Tikvah.

                      ISRAEL’S EXTENDED DOUBLE
                      1813 BC Jacobs death
                      68 AD Roman Armies encircle Jerusalem (Christians flee to mountains Luke 21) 1880 years of disfavor.
                      1948 AD Israel becomes a nation

                    • Love and Peace

                      Who says you cannot extablish truth from types? The Bible is built in an type-antitype format. Genesis 1:1-2:3 it the first type in the Bible.It follows Creation, Ruin, 6 of restoration and rest on the seventh day aling with adam and eve being married typifying the marriage of the Bride and Christ. Then the six days of creation are the typical of the new creation. The Adam and Eve picture is also at the beginning. Abel and Cain represent Israel and Jesus. Abarahams story and Esau and Jacob and Joseph all are types. Then Exodus is all typical. Nothing in there is not a type. The whole old testament is a type. So I disagree with your view on that.

                      As for the double who says the the doubles time parallels 1845 years? I says punish them double. No scripture gives us the the the double is from the length of Jacob to Jesus. We can only guess. Some of the parallels are wrong. 1881 was not an end to the genral call the 6,000 years according to Russell gives us 1872 so it doesn’t fit 1874 so it must mean it was two years in the garden. Sorry thats made up and oure assumtpion. Favor has not reutnred to israel. They are a secular nation and they will be attcked again. If they were rbought back to their land by divine favor they would show signs of returned to them. They are not being favored. God cannot deal with israel until the bride is complete. We cannot latch onto anything that comes along as a fulfillment. For example the 1290 days giving us 1829 for the Millerite movement. He was active way before then.

                      David Rice does the same thing. When it says the third day we cannot cound days from Adam or Israel. We must count fron the day the Jews killed jesus and were cast off for a time.If they are cast off for two days and are restored on the third then 1948 isn’t it. Numbers 35 shows that the slayer (Israel) cannot return to their land until the death of the high priest ending his ministry. Jesus will end his ministry in his sanctaury after the bride is complete. Then they can return. As Moses led Israel out of Egypt and made a covenant with them so Jesus will lead Israel and establish a covenent with them. Jesus is not leading them today. Israel will be cast out of thier land one more time. This secular israel today is not a fulfillment. 1948 was still day 2 of their being cast out.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Love and Peace,

                      I just wanted to say I am really surprised you are saying that we can establish truth from types. P.S. Johnson, president of the Layman’s Home Missionary movement did this extensively. The problem is, if you give me free reign to make types of anything in the Old or New Testament that I want, I can invent any doctrines I want and spin the type to agree with my thinking. Do you really want to stand by the idea that you can “establish truth from types.” If so, what if you and I apply a totally different meaning to a given type, who’s interpretation is correct? Yours or mine?

                      Let’s say that I were to agree that the three scriptures referring to Israel’s Double do not refer to two equal periods of time, one of 1845 years of favor and one of 1845 years of disfavor. If so, how would I answer someone who argues that the statistically, the odds of starting both Doubles at the same starting point (the death of Jacob in 1813 BC) and the 1845 years extending first to 1878 and then the 1880 years extending to 1948. So you are totally satisfied to accept that as a lucky coincidence? Do you want to argue anyone can do the same thing playing with numbers? How so?

                      You said, “No scripture gives us the the the double is from the length of Jacob to Jesus.” Okay then, if the Double were true, what would be a better start date then when Jacob died and God was now dealing with the 12 tribes of Israel? To Jesus saying “your house is desolate” is pretty obvious as an end point, isn’t it?

                      In answer to your points about the Jews now in Israel, once again, Click here and go to subhead: ISRAEL ALREADY CONVERTED WHEN THEY COME BACK TO THE LAND

                      You said, “You said, “God cannot deal with Israel until the bride is complete.” I would agree that blindness cannot be removed from Israel until the bride is complete.
                      Romans 11:25 (NKJV) “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”

                      You said, “When it says the third day we cannot count days from Adam or Israel. We must count from the day the Jews killed Jesus.” My response: If we count from Jesus, it totally throws off the six thousand year count starting with Adam. Jesus died near the beginning of the fifth thousand years day, so if we count three days from and including that day, it brings us to the 7th day.

                    • Love and Peace

                      I have all of PSL Johnson’s Books. His types don’t follow the antitypes. He made types follow the antitypes in our day to fit his preconceived notions. None of there types I sent you are made up and you can see they are correct. Not made up to show a movement to be the trying that’s fulfilled in a youthful worthy class. He showed that he was the antitypical Eliezer and all that. That’s garbage. His types don’t follow NT antitypes. Also when Jesus walked with those on emaus the opened up ALL THE SCRIPTURES and showed them the fulfillment in him starting from Moses. Each type must have a NT antitype. Not a truth movement antitype like Johnson did. . Each type must find it’s antitypes in Christ. Not Russell and not Modern-day fulfillment’s of movements like the LHMM. . Also, if you look at the type with Joseph. Joseph’s brethren went from their land to Egypt (type of the world) and it wasn’t until they were in Egypt that they realized that Joseph (Jesus) was the one they persecuted. And it you notice that this is in the Seven days of famine which is a type of the coming tribulation. Not before. When Jesus ask your house is left unto you delsolate yes there will be a restoration of Israel. But it’s not the secular movement that has Israel in their land today. As for your response about the third day. Well first off the 6,000 year theory is just a theory. We are not in the millennium. Secondly if 6,000 years were it then it doesn’t throw off the 6,000 years. The Jews were cast of for three days. That’s 2 one thousand year days and in the third day he would raise them up. There is the six thousand what’s from Adam yes. But just like when Jesus said that in three days he would raise up the temple. That’s the third day from his day which is about to be complete. Not three thousand years after Adam. It doesn’t always start there. . That doesn’t throw the time off. Three days from when they killed Jesus they can be returned from their land. Each time they are restored it’s through REPENTENCE. never in disobedience. There is no scripture showing Israel is to be returned in disobedience. Anger yes. But they cannot go back until the repent. It’s hows it was always done in the past and how it will be done in the future. He cannot deal with Israel until the bride is complete.

                • just say sweet and good

                  The way I see it is that the great JHVH, the Master of the Universe knows what he is doing.
                  He put those numbers at the end of Daniel 12:9-12 for a reason and we will not have to wait till Daniel’s resurrection to understand it. He said that no wicked one will understand but only those who have insight will. Insight into what? Insight into Jehovah’s ways. Those ways are of no value to us unless we choose to make them our ways also. We have absolutely no spiritual growth until we bow in complete submission to him in full consecration. Then, and only then are our spiritual eyes are opened to what is going on in this world right now. We then can “see” his presence is slowly tearing down this world. Every man born has a sense of justice, which Jehovah “hot wired” into us. We know there has to be something more than this current groaning state of man. As Jacob said: “God is in this place and I did not know it” Gen 28:16 also see Matt 28:20 and Col.1:27 He always reveals himself to the obedient.

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Thanks “sweet and good.” In connection with your comments, I think of John 16:13 (Concordant) “Yet whenever that may be coming—the spirit of truth–it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.”

        • Love and Peace

          I do not believe 1948 is the true restoration of Israel. I have 25 books showing type after type after type showing that Israel cannot be restored to their land until after 2 days on the third day (Two 1000 years days on the third). The current Zion movement is a secular movement and has no worshipping of their God. They are mainly atheists and nonbelievers. The ancient worthies will be resurrected and guide Israel back to their land as shown by Israel going free with the bones of Joseph. Amos 9:14,15 shows they will never be uprooted again but we know in Jacobs trouble they will be cast back out into the world one more time. Then the ancient worthies will bring them back and will be god’s people again.

          Hosea 6:2
          “After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.” This shows 2 days on the third. 1948 is the 2nd day

          • ZionsHerald

            Edited to include Scripture.

            ———————-

            Indeed, Israel’s restoration to the Lord did not happen in 1948. Scripturally this event is outlined for us in Zechariah 12 where Israel is in the land while still in unbelief.

            It isn’t until all the nations come against them to battle when the Lord restores them by first pouring out his spirit upon them. It is only at that time that they will recognize the Lord and return to him.

            The conditions for this prophecy in Zechariah 12 are clear. They must be in the land, and they must be in the land in unbelief. Israel returned to their land in unbelief in 1948, and they gained control of Jerusalem in 1967 (also in unbelief).

            We look forward to the time when they will no longer be in unbelief and will return to the Lord

            Zechariah 12:9-11
            9 For on that day I will begin to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

            10 “Then I will pour out a spirit[b] of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. 11 The sorrow and mourning in Jerusalem on that day will be like the great mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.

            This same prophecy in Zechariah 12 about the conversion of Israel is repeated again in Zechariah 14 from the perspective of the Gentiles who attack them.

            Unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses (which focus this site is about) which claim that every nation that attacks Israel will be destroyed in Second death, Zechariah 14 gives a far more hopeful answer that is full of undeserved grace.

            Just as Zechariah 12 told us about Israel’s conversion to the Lord, Zechariah 14 gives us the conversion of the unbelieving Gentile at that time frame.

            Zechariah 14:2-3, 16.
            . 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle

            16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

            Obviously Israel has not returned to the Lord, but He has returned them to their land (in unbelief) as prophesied. We look forward to their promised conversion to come, as well as the unbelieving Gentile nations which will attack them.

            • Love and Peace

              ZionsHerald Exactly.

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Love and Peace,

                Yes, I agree with you. ZionsHerald got it right. However, aren’t you saying the The Lord has had nothing to do with the Jews returning to the land up to this point in time and that they have returned to the Land without His help?

                • Love and Peace

                  1948 isn’t the true return. Most of them aren’t physical Jews but are the results of the coverts in europe. The true return is after Jacobs Troubke they will be guided back by the ancient worthies.

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Love and Peace,

                    Yet ZionsHerald quoted Zechariah 12:9-11. The chapter shows the Jews return to the Land and God delivers them from enemies and after he gives them the Holy Spirit and after that they repent.

                    Verse six indicate the God helps the Jews regain Jerusalem. This is before they receive the Holy Spirit and repent.
                    Zech 12:6 “In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place–Jerusalem.”

                    • zionsherald

                      Pete,

                      I think he’s saying that Israel really isn’t a faithful country at this point. They aren’t dealing with the Lord nor looking for his leading.

                      I think he/she was agreeing with me that Israel was prophetically returned to their land in unbelief, but they won’t recognize how the Lord is working with them until Jacob’s Trouble.

                      We can see all through history where the Lord has used those in unbelief to accomplish his will. King Cyrus is an example of how the Lord used him to return Israel to their land. ISrael needed a few more prophetic experiences to push their rebellious nature toward the Lord’s goal. Prophetically we can see the same in our day as the Lord has used unbelievers to return his chosen people to their land. Now we wait for the other prophecies to be fulfilled and then watch the miracle the Lord will perform of turning an unbelieving nation into believers through attacks from unbelieving nations who also in turn will become believers.

                      God’s grace is truly undeserved.

                      Jeff

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jeff,

                      Thanks – Yes I understood, but may not have explained myself well. I like your example of Cyrus. In contrast, Nebuchadnezzar was used by God to punish Israel. Either way, God was fulfilling his will for Israel.

                • Anon CJ

                  Love and peace. Does it matter? We know they’ll be restored. Who cares the date.

    • Greetings Ellis,
      I was a Jw too,- now I am a Christian/ Acts 11:26)
      here invite you to read some of my studies :
      — The Kingdom of God – when in Heaven ? —
      —– according to Jesus’ teaching —–
      https://plus.google.com/116459431650427846618/posts/2YGoYM4jpZq
      ======================================
      Has God An Organization On Earth Today ?
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/116459431650427846618/posts/UPpyMMVo4TW
      Other studies may be found on my Google-page:
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/116459431650427846618
      ………..
      May Jehovah gather all His sheep! Micah 2:12.

  • Ellis Green

    Hi Peter, Ellis here. I joined this site recently and found all the articles very enlightening. I was raised JW, am 59 years old, and been rather disillusioned with Watchtower for the last 3 years. So I’m inactive as they say. I honestly didn’t know Bible Students were still around (most JWs don’t) but I’m so pleased that you are! I follow the Dawn Bible now, read the Dawn on their website, and listen to FRANK & eARNEST regularly.

    I’ve always believed Jesus and Michael are the same person, and still do. Funny thing is, there’s no actual verse in the Bible that says they are, but what verses do suggest that they are particularly Daniel 12 and Revelation 12. One speaks of Michael standing in behalf of God’s people – and people coming out of dust which suggests a resurrection – and the other Scripture speaks of Michael defeating Satan with angels and other verses in the Bible refer to Jesus defeating Satan and also having an Archangel’s voice. Also the 2 of them (Jesus and Michael) are never seen to have conversations with each other so if they live in heaven then surely they must have contact? Going back to Daniel 12, if a resurrection happens after Michael’s standing up, and Jesus’s Second Coming will bring a resurrection; if the 2 are different people then does this mean a Presence of Christ and another of Michael, both featuring resurrections? Or if they’re the same person then the 2 Scriptures are predicting the same 1 event.

    Maybe when Jesus returns with Kingdom Power, some bright spark might ask if they’re the same and then we’ll know for sure!

    That was a good video you did and I hope you do more. I’ll watch the one mentioned above as well. Thanks for explaining things simply and logically.

  • Peter K. (admin)

    This morning at 10:00 am Central, I will be discussing the End of the Age and Jesus’ Parousia (Second Presence) with Anthony Buzzard. Here is the Link to Join:

    here’s the link to join Webinar: https://zoom.us/j/819396249

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