Former JW and now Bible Student Elder, David Stein, tells the story of how he used to go door to door and faced a crisis of conscience when he realized his good Christian neighbor would die in Armageddon for not accepting the JW message. David clearly explains what the Bible teaches about the Ransom for ALL. He also explains how a correct understanding of Jesus Ransom refutes the false doctrines of Hell, Trinity and the Immortal Soul.
Listen by clicking here: The Ransom a Touchstone
Addressing Peter K
Thank you for your good words. Appreciate your wanting to encourage me. Though coming from a different, but certainly not from a Jehovah’s Witnesses perspective, my desire, and it seems my mission, has developed in to one not that far from that of the Bible Students, namely to hallow or sanctify Jehovah’s immaculate name in what He stands for and has purposed for humanity.
It would please me greatly if I were allowed just one final comment here on rhis site, but this current one is not it. I shall not comment on your site again, while careful ‘Never To Say Never Again’.
There is this point of opinion you raised dear Peter, I wish to briefly comment on right now:
Whenever we have a conclusion in mind, it is easy enough to
convince ourselves that we have found support for it in the Bible.
For example, replacing “all” with “all sorts of people” in 1 Tim
4:6. Keep in mind that other than Russell, no major Christian
commentator believes that Jesus died for everyone, in the sense
that ALL mankind are coming back from the dead in the future.
So it makes sense that the commentators will attempt to
rationalize and justify their views. So in attempting to define
a Greek word, rather than just accepting commentators that agree
with our point of view, it is good to see several examples of how
the Bible uses that word to get a more objective sense of the
meaning
I had no conclusions in mind whatsoever. I went along with all assumed-to-be-truth-doctrines and outcomes that were opined upon my soul for many decades. There was nothing pre-conceived that I needed to find scriptural support for. The very opposite is true.
I only wish that more Bible reading was done not in support of hand-me-down doctrines, but what that inimitable word actually says, while taking phrases like ‘trees clapping hands’ not literally. Proverbs 3:13-26 beautifully describes the many different ways he mind and every fiber of our being needs to be engaged when we try to make Jehovah’s thoughts our own. Lots of bible reading is done without putting the brain into gear.
Oh, yes, I do have opinions, but these are formed by the Scriptures – and doesn’t everyone and his dog claim that ;-).
When the Apostle Paul stated that the people under the former covenant were ransomed by the Christ, is that my opinion? Or that Jehovah is not a Hypocrite as He appears to be according to the Christian establishment who allege it must have been Jehovah’s will for Adam to have bequeathed sin and death upon humanity otherwise t would not have happened, while saying at the same time in Deuteronomy 24:16 that sons should never be punished for the sins of their fathers.
Jehovah devoted the whole chapter 16 of Ezekiel to that subject in order to debunk the Jewish blame-game proverb they invented to blame their forefathers for their transgressions:
Ezekiel 18:2 ‘That you use among you this parable as a proverb in the land of Israel, saying: The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’
If all that is just my opinion, then Jehovah must be a hypocrite.
This is my opinion taken straight out of Jehovah’s mind:
(Hebrews 11:1 NWT) Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped
for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.. . .
I deal with realities, not opinions, in an endeavour to counter opinions with realities.
Dieter
To Dupin;
Do you think Matthew wrote his account in Hebrew. If so what words were used for all?
Also could you explain mat 28:18 the Greek word used for all has 4 letters. And at first Tim 2:4 and 6 the Greek words used for all have 6 letters and the second one is a bit different then the first.
So right here we have three words translated all.
In an English-Greek Lexicon By Henry R. Hamilton eight edition 1872 it gives 3 words for all. 3 letters,4letters,6 letters. Then a few words meaning, not at all and in all ways.
And did you ever meet and consult with that Mr. Franz you keep referring to?
I really enjoyed Bro. Steines audio presentation…thank you!
Loath to do tit-for-tat replies playing ping-pong with bible verses especially where the translators were doctrine driven by the universal sin theory.
Understanding the ALL is absolutely prerequisite to comprehending the Ransom and its implications. Who was to be ransomed? Who only were sold in order to be repurchased via a ransom? Who were to be saved through that remarcable provision from Jehovah?
The OT has it all!
Romans 5:12 is touted to be the all in point of definition, while the very next verse is ignored: (Romans 5:13) 13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. NWT.
Perfectly mirrored in Romans 4:15: (Romans 4:15) 15 In reality the Law produces wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there any transgression.. . .
Seconded also by the inspired Apostle Paul in Corinthians where Paul laid he blame for sin fair and square on the Mosaic Law:
(1 Corinthians 15:56) 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law.. . .
(1 Timothy 2:4-6) . . .. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all***. . . -NWT Reference edition
*** Footnote – Or, “all sorts of people.”
1 Timothy 2:1-6 is all about all kinds being saved rather than all per se.
Pertinent comment here from a prominent English Baptist preacher
of the 1800s a Mr Spurgeon:
… “the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts — some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption
The meaning of the Greek word translated all in 1 Timothy 2:6, as used in other verses, reflects these definitions:
————————- Strong’s No. 3956 (GREEK) —————
3956 pas {pas}
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone,
all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
In fact the tenor of the verses preceding verse 6 show that Paul was referring not to absolutely all. This is further highlighted by the kinds of people making up the seed of Abraham Jesus came to save:
(Galatians 3:28-29) 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
The version you quoted is a free or paraphrased translation tailored to suit a cross-section of the doctrinal spectrum of those sponsoring it. I purchased a printed version in the 1960s to help others into the truth.
After 50 years a Jehovah’s Witness, which assocuation terminated in January 2006, I don’t only now have to contend with their errancies, but also with tose of the rest of Christendom primarily the ubiquitous lie of universal sin.
May Jehovah forgive them all.
More on my site: http://www.sanctifyname.com
Thanks, Dieter
Dieter I was agreeing with you in your summative conclusion that you drew. Perhaps you missunderstood. Sorry. I agree that all men are ransomed by Jesus, whether you go about your way of coming to that conclusion or not. One thing I have learned is persons have the right to reason on scripture as they see fit especially if they draw the correct conclusion. One should be allowed to express themselves as well as read another person’s opinion. Again thank you. Jacqueline
Greetings Dieter:
If you go to Thayer’s Lexicon, the full version, you’ll find he gives an explanation of some of the subtleties of the use of πας. He tells us that when it is used of a group collectively, such as in 1 Tim. 2:6, then it means all in that group. He gives 1 Tim. 2:4&6 as an example. Bullenger and Liddell & Scotts’ Lexicons, in the editions which would’ve been sitting on the shelf next to Fred Franz’s desk as he was translating, both agree with rendering πας in this case as either “all” or possibly “every.”
If we take into account other passages in the scriptures such as Rev. 20:11-15 we see that Paul was speaking in terms of all people learning the truth in the thousand year Kingdom when all are resurrected.
Thank you Dupin,
No problem with that. Albeit, what is or who comprises that group Jesus died for.
ALL lexica are extremely useful even essential at times to hone one’s understanding, as are the menagerie of Bible Translations. We’d be lost without them for sure. That, by the way, includes the WTB&TS Insight on the Scriptures.
ALL, as in everyone of them collectively and individually are tainted with that universal doctrine of sin, judgment and punishment Christianity is beholden to, whatever their individual take on it.
What Franz had on his desk beside him may be of significance to some, but is patently irrelevant, given his own doctrinally tainted belief system.
Jesus was the currency Jehovah used to redeemed, bring back or ransom all Israel. In this manner were ALL Israel repurchased by the Father Jehovah, the antitypical Abraham, while only doing so successfully ‘for the many’ of Abraham’s seed accepting that.
That’s what the Bible is all about: preparing a government by selecting and chosing its members so that they can then govern to benefit humanity.
As it is indeed in the human governmental realm of democracy, where ALL the members of a government need to be selected first (by vote)from ALL the population and be seated in place, before becoming the ALL of the many thus chosen to benefit ALL in that national realm.
Many are called from out of ALL the redeemed, but only a few, namely 144000 are finally chosen. The whole nation of Israel were potentially called to saintly separation from ALL the earth’s people and assigned to form a Governmental Holy Nation of Kings and Priests (Exodus 19:3-8), later confirmed in 1 Peter 2:9 by the apostle to the Jews. Many out of ALL those making up that nation of Israel would eventually make it via a very convoluted road into their heavenly destiny.
That passage in Revelation 20 you referred to is also about judging ALL the potential members of that multiethnic amalgam of faithful men and women, the Israel of God from whom many would finally be judged suitable by the Christ to form government. Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31-46 cover that same event.
MANKIND IS NOT ON JUDGMENT, because Jehovah has no basis for doing so, since they had no law from Him to conform to and be judged by.
Only Israel had such a law and is guilty of transgression.
So some of ALL kinds out of the ALL Jesus had died for, will finally take their seats in the heavenly Kingdom as the Seed of Abraham to benefit ALL humans who submit to Jehovah’s rule
Many translations, the NWT no exception, use mankind at times to translate the plural ‘men’. Even when that is not the case, humans tend to read themselves into a group they’re not a part of.
Like the phrase ‘death will be no more’ in Revelation 21:4, which can only apply to the group of generic men having gone to heaven to be the government and not to ALL humanity as in mankind, who will still need to eat to stay alive, for there is no immortality package deal for them.
That should almost cover ALL, that’s all.
Dieter
Dupin – Thanks. This is good backup to add to my “Ransom for All” notes. Do you have more detailed notes on this?
Dieter,
I appreciate your sincerity and knowledge of the scriptures. Thanks so much for sharing some stimulating and challenging thoughts.
The Bible teaches us that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8 NASV). Sadly, since the fall of Adam, our human nature (of everyone) is ingrained with pride and selfishness. (Phil 2:1-4; Isa 2:11; Prov 8:13) Denominational churches have won the masses of Christian people, partly because it is appealing to human nature to think that we are so special that Jehovah will save and reward us, then those who disagree with us will go to “hell” or “second death.” Christians say we are sad about those who are lost, but most of them resist ever effort to consider that there can be a future hope for unbelievers, who have rejected the Truth message in this “present evil world” (Gal 1:4 NASV) where Satan “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel” (2 Cor 4:4 NASV) and where “darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people.” (Isa 60:2 NASV)
Whenever we have a conclusion in mind, it is easy enough to convince ourselves that we have found support for it in the Bible. For example, replacing “all” with “all sorts of people” in 1 Tim 4:6. Keep in mind that other than Russell, no major Christian commentator believes that Jesus died for everyone, in the sense that ALL mankind are coming back from the dead in the future. So it makes sense that the commentators will attempt to rationalize and justify their views. So in attempting to define a Greek word, rather than just accepting commentators that agree with our point of view, it is good to see several examples of how the Bible uses that word to get a more objective sense of the meaning.
The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live. Here the word “ALL,” clearly means EVERYONE, all Adam’s posterity.
Under Moses’ Law, justice demanded “a life for a life.” This was God’s perfect law. If a man killed someone, he must pay with his own life: a life for a life. (Exodus 21:23-25; Deuteronomy 19:21). Jehovah solved the problem by satisfying justice with the Ransom price of Jesus perfect human life paid for Adam’s lost perfect human life.
The Apostle Paul uses the Greek word anti-lutron, signifying, “a corresponding price,” saying, “The man, Christ Jesus, gave himself a ransom [anti-lutron—corresponding price] for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:6. The Greek word lutroo is rendered “redeemed.” Prof. Young defines lutroo to signify “to loose by a price”—that is, to set free by the payment of a price. The basis or root of this word is lutron, which, as noted above with anti, used either as a prefix or a suffix, signifies a corresponding price.
Put in simple terms, Ransom means that something was lost and that you have to pay something of equal value to get it back.
Salvation comes by substitutionary atonement. One man, Jesus Christ, died for one man, Adam, so that Adam and all his posterity might live. The Apostle Paul outlines this concept of substitutionary atonement in two passages:
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Corinthians 15:21, 22
“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Rom. 5:15
Since the first man, Adam, was a perfect human being, it follows that Jesus, as a corresponding price, must also be a perfect human being and that the resultant life for Adam’s posterity must be perfect human life.
As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his life, so Jesus, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s life, and in consequence for all Adam’s posterity—every human soul—sharers in his fall and in his loss. With Adam redeemed, all his posterity are entitled to a resurrection from the dead to human perfection and a trial for life under the favorable conditions of Paradise Earth.
Check out this great short video that clearly lays out the concept of the Ransom for ALL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC4hzC93yb4
My Goodness, I truly hope someone actually listened to this presentation. But wait, there’s more.
I wish many Jehovah’s Witnesses listen to this, for it echoes my exact feelings during my door-to-door ministry. Unfortunately much of this good information falls through the cracks of time and fades as this seems to have.
The subject of the ransom had also touched me very deeply, but not emotionally as it seems to initially affect others. We tend to personalise the ransom and embrace it much too readily, allowing emotion to override the key ingredients of discernment, understanding, knowledge, wisdom, practical-wisdom, thinking-ability suggested in Proverbs chapter 2.
The whole of Psalm 119, all 176 verses of it, focus on the manifold manifestations of Jehovah’s word, which need to be in place before we give free rein to our emotions.
Jesus died for me, generally accompanied by a sigh, may be very emotionally satisfying, but it is a somewhat self-indulgent trademark of Christendom, where understanding plays second fiddle.
Does any one bother to look at what is there in Jehovah’s word rather than what Christianity’s leaders dish up? Hebrews 9:15 suggests that the Christ ransomed those under the first testament or covenant, while Galatians 4:4-5 second that.
Jesus the Christ had already indicated in Matthew 15:25 that he had come for an Israel lost to Jehovah as His inheritance. All Israel were lost to Him:
(Isaiah 53:6) Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one.
(Jeremiah 50:6) A flock of perishing creatures my people has become. Their own shepherds have caused them to wander about. On the mountains they have led them away. From mountain to hill they have gone. They have forgotten their resting-place.
(Ezekiel 34:6) My sheep kept straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; and on all the surface of the earth my sheep were scattered, with no one making a search and with no one seeking to find.
(Acts 13:46) And so, talking with boldness, Paul and Bar′na‧bas said: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to YOU. Since YOU are thrusting it away from YOU and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations.
The last phrase actually means ‘turn to the non Jewish nations’ in order to graft Gentile branches into the Israel Olive tree of Romans 11 to make up the numbers to the required 144000 Jehovah had destined to become the heavenly Kingdom.
It needs to be remembered that all of Scripture, from Adam’s refusal to cooperate with Jehovah right up to the end of Revelation, is all about Israel as the only means chosen by Jehovah to restore Adam’s original opportunities to every human being past, present and future, embedded in His sworn oath promise to Abraham for his seed to bless all the families of the earth, these key verses need to be seen in exactly that context.
Even now can I give my emotions full rein since I understand the purpose and consequences pertaining to the ransom. Although not of anointed Israel, Jesus may not have died for me personally, but as part of all the families of the earth to be blessed by that ransomed Seed of Abraham, I, along with many millions, will become an ultimate beneficiary.
I pray that this, along with my website http://www.sanctifyname.com will throw some light on the ransom issue.
Dieter, thanks for your thoughts. I hope that is actually Billions! The end point is that all of Adams children will get the one chance to make their own decision on whether they unlike Adam will choose to obey Jehovah. We have had many experiences with evil and not being able to somehow redeem ourselves, because we would sin again over and over again.
So thank God for the Christ “A Ransom for ALL.” 1tim 2:5,6 NE says:”For there is one God, and also one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus, himself man, who sacrificed himself to win freedom for all mankind,”
Sometimes one has to wonder what part of all don’t some religions understand. Sincerely Jacqueline