Heavenly or Earthly Call? – 144,000, Great Crowd & Other Sheep – Listen to June 5 Conference Call recording

To listen to the recording, click above or  To listen, click here and look for the June 5, 2011 program.  — It is described at the link as “Who are the “Little Flock”, the “Great Crowd” and the “Other Sheep”?

Does the Bible teach that you should be pursuing a earthly hope today, to be a part of the Great Crowd on earth?  Or does it teach that the Christian should be pursuing a heavenly hope, to be a part of the bride of Christ?   Former JW and Bible Student elder David Stein interviewed a panel of Bible students to investigate and discuss this topic.  They will answer the questions– What does the Bible teach about the Little Flock, the Great Crowd, the Other Sheep and the Heavenly Call?  Callers participated with your own questions and/or comments.

59 comments to Heavenly or Earthly Call? – 144,000, Great Crowd & Other Sheep – Listen to June 5 Conference Call recording

  • Anonymous

    If there’s no such thing as an earthly great crowd who’ll survive armageddon then why do so many people want to serve God yet live on earth?

    • Jacqueline

      Hi anonymous perhaps these links wll answer your questions. https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/armageddon-2/
      Keep in mind JW believe that they only will survive Armageddon so they hijack the great crowd so they can exclude others.
      You might also like to read this link, it helps you to understand that Judgement is on the system not people at Armageddon including the Church systems, welfare states etc. Jesus will set up his government that will work for the good of all mankind and all will get to know for sure what God wants them to do. They may decide that they don’t want to live under Christ’s rule and opt to die prematurely or listen to Satan once again at the end of the thousand years and have their lives ended by Jehovah himself in his battle. This battle is often mistaken for Armageddon. Jehovah sends you to Gehenna, everlasting death.
      From Adam to now all have die Adamic death, which is redeemed by Christ and they rise from that death during Millenium.
      https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/judgement/

    • Jacqueline

      Anonymous I read your question more closely and it seems you are asking why some love serving God but have no hope of going to heaven or want to.
      Php. 3:14,15 (NIV) “I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
      15. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.”
      This indicates a calling by God. And this is the call sent out now during the Gospel Age. He is gathering the saints and great crowd. Not everyone will answer this call and began the run for the upward call of Christ. It simply means they don’t want to strip every thing off that hinders them and run.
      Yet there are many that still love God and are good people. I find that vs 16 can be applied to them also.
      Php.3:16 ” Only let us live up to what we have already attained.”
      So don’t despair if you don’t feel that way. Maybe God will reveal it to you. At any rate, the Millenium and the worlds and time beyond is off our radar. We can’t even imagine what God has in store for all of Mankind. Millenium under Christ Jesus is the hope of mankind. The Higher calling is for a purpose to rule and help in the task of bringing the many to righteousness. Priest and Kings, helping the Ages to come to know the “Divine Plan of the Ages” and how they are in it.
      Hope I understand what you are asking. Jacqueline

      • Anonymous

        Hi Jacqueline,What you said makes sense in terms of many being called to the high calling but unwilling to make the necessary sacrifice to obtain it. My hope is heavenly, what yours?

        • Jacqueline

          Anonymous, I believe that the call out today is for the heavenly calling and I am running for it. The spirit has in fact enjoined with mine to let me know this is an invitation from Jehovah. I agree with the Apostle here:

          Php 3:12 “Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal;[a] but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved,[b] I do not consider that I have made it my own;[c] but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on towards the goal for the prize of the heavenly[d] call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.”

  • SUN

    You all need help , if need to talk email. ” SUN”

    • Jacqueline

      Sun since you have commented before we know you visit the site and we are glad to see you read the articles. If you have any questions, please ask them and we will try to help you.
      I notice Your posts are on the anointed links 3 times, is there a question there. Or what about switching to some of the other subjects, and ask or comment. Please take Care.

  • Anonymous

    Check out this video on the 144,000……http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_JnephdlP8

    • Jacqueline

      This is strictly witness teaching and some of it is dated now. They have changed a lot. There are lots of videos like this one out there. Also I can appreciate his observance that John is looking in heaven. That is what Christian look forward to according to the promise made by Jesus. The book of Revelation has so many facets to it.

      • Anonymous

        You mean the teaching of only 144,000 going to heaven?

        • Jacqueline

          Yes, most religions teach that all Christians go to heaven. If you read the scripture that he is using there is a sealing of the “servants of God”. The angels stand around the elders and four living creatures, they bow before God. The “Great Multitude also are before the throne. These spoken of here are obviously taking part in a heavenly scene.
          Now whether or not they are the same seen from a different perspective is what this poster sees. And that’s all right with me, I will respect his right to think this tru in his way. I like hearing what each Christian say as they are convinced themselves of the issue. Realizing that heaven is open is good enough for me. I also keep in mind that this is just a tiny bit of what God has in store for us in the future.
          Also not a hair on any of our heads will change if we don’t get it all very accurate down to the tee. The evil doer on the cross beside Jesus didn’t know but one thing, that this was the Christ. He didn’t even know about heaven as a choice. I say this to say, that with me, the big picture is sufficient until the great Revelation is made clearer as time progresses. To me salvation does not hinge on it.

          PS: BTW, I think John would have recognized paradise earth as the Jews believed they would live on earth not heaven. But what surprised him was seeing all theses in heaven before God. If he had turned him attention to the earth and saw this multitude he would have known they were in paradise like Jesus told the evildoer, also, I am sure some of the things not written but taught to the apostles was about paradise but to see so many in heaven other than those of his generation must have been a shock. He probably expected Jesus return to come quickly and there not be a great number in heaven but we know over 2000 yrs have passed already.
          So you see each of us have thoughts that helps us to prove to ourselves and strengthen our FAITH individually.

          Anonymous, also are the great multitude sealed like the 144,000 or did John look at another set of people. He didn’t ask who the 144,00 were. If they are the same why would he ask? Also if no man could number them then that statement is untrue for he did give a number 144,000. It stands to reason that the Holy Spirit is active on Spiritual Jews that have an outward sign thru their ministry, life, faith and for the will of God that it is speaking of. I also believe it is these that dispense food to the household of faith.

    • Anonymous

      I have a theory: 144,000 is symbolic and represents the great crowd of Rev. 7:9. “Other sheep” are gentiles. When Jesus said “little flock” at Luke 12:32 he meant ‘little’ in an effectionate sense like; ‘poor little boy’ or ‘little cutety’, not necessarily meaning a numeric value,e.g. in Matt. 15:26 he uses the term “Little dogs”, that doesn’t mean they were little in size. Tell me what you think.

  • Mathias Wingsternes

    What does it mean that only 144 000 has been bought FROM EARTH? (revelation 14:3) This is the identic number with the 144 000 that is mentioned in chapter 7 which is said to be of Israel’s twelve tribes. Yet in chapter 5 verse 9 it is said that the Lamb bought men FROM ALL NATIONS AND TONGUES with it’s blood and in verse 10 that THESE(of all nations and tongues) are to serve as kings and priests.

    Yet in chapter 7 the one’s described as being of all nations are the great crowd. I do not make any conclusions, this is mere questions I hope someone can make sense of. I’ve been learnt that the 144 000 is the anointed, heavenly class and the great crowd is the earthly survivors of armageddon, but I am not sure if I really believe this.

    I understand that bible students use psalm 45:14-15 to explain that the great crowd is identical with the servants of the bride, and that these are also coming with the bride into the palace(heaven). I have leartn that the other sheep is the earth class, yet I find it more reasonable to understand this as the gentiles, as Jesus was preaching for his Father’s flock, Israel, and that the other sheep then was referring to gentiles.

    If all is to be redeemed, what then does it mean that those that endureth to the end shall be saved? (matthew 10:22)

    Thanks for any enlighetening comments in advance

    • Jacqueline

      Mathias we see your comment and will get a response but most are with family this weekend. Thank you, Jacqueline

    • Anonymous

      Mathias,all mankind has been given the opportunity to accept the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ,however,not all of us will.As far as enduring to the end…….this applies to those who accept the call and live in a Christ-like way, then to get the ‘prize’,they must be faithful all their lives(endureth to the end).Remember, just because Jesus died for all doesn’t mean all will accept it, some people just plain don’t want to be christians!

  • Hank

    To K.

    The Great Company fails, they have to be replaced and it is alot of them. That us why it is called Great Company. They lose the crown! But they are happy losers because they go to heaven to assist the bride class with Jesus.

    So it is a win win. Does it matter which one you get?

    Hank

  • K

    Here’s my take on the identity of the 1)”great crowd,and the “144,000”, 2)the “24 elders” and 3)the “other sheep”. 1)the number 144,000 symbolicly represents the “great crowd”. 2)if the “24 elders” represent the 144,000(as the Jws teach)then why can’t 144,000 represent the great crowd? 3)The “other sheep” are gentile christians. Let me know what guys think of my interpretation.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      K – I admire your interest and enthusiasm at resolving the meaning of many symbols so concisely. You state your thoughts very clearly and that is a gift. Now what I think is not so important as:
      1) your personal commitment to understand the scriptures
      2) your deep love of Jesus and His Father which drives that determination
      3) the patience which accepts that true answers often come only with deep and honest study over time.

      Isaiah spoke to Israel. Isaiah 28 (GNT) “9 They complain about me. They say, “…Who needs his message? … 10 He is trying to teach us letter by letter, line by line, lesson by lesson.”

      Isaiah well explains what it takes to study and understand the Bible. This is why I love the “Divine Plan of the Ages.” It lays out God’s basic plan so beautifully and harmoniously, step by step and lesson by lesson. http://www.godsplan-today.com/#The Divine Plan of the Ages:

      Being spiritually in love with Jesus means wanting to know everything about Him and His Father. As you already know, that comes from frequent study of the Bible.

      Okay now. So you want some feedback on:
      1) The Great Crowd
      2) The 144,000
      3) the 24 elders
      4) the other sheep.

      We actually have conference calls and other information on these topics here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/great-crowd/

      You can find some thoughts on the 24 Elders starting on page 303 here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Revelation-Notebook.pdf

      I’ll give you some brief thoughts:

      The “other sheep” could either refer to the Gentile Christians as you suggest or the obedient world of mankind on paradise earth. I prefer the first.

      Rev 7:9 says of the Great Crowd, “which no man can number.” Yet we can number the 144,000. So the Great Crowd seems to be millions of the anointed since Pentecost who were not sufficiently faithful to be of the Bride of Christ. Remember that for the most part, numbers in Revelation are literal, even if what they apply to is symbolic. For example, there are 7 trumpets, 7 churches and 7 seals. The fact that there are 7 of each is literal. However the trumpets, churches and seals are symbolic. Same with the 42 months (equals 1260 days). It is literally 1260. However, as in the Seventy Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, a day is symbolic for a year. Therefore the 144,000 are a literal number. Yet the Great Crowd could be millions (no fixed number).

      Hope this helps.

      • K

        Thanks Peter K., that really helped! I can accept the fact that most of the #’s in Rev. are literal. I wonder why the Jw’s insist that the great crowd refers to them exclusively? It doesn’t seem fair for the other people of the world who are Christ like but perhaps blind. Will they all be enlightened before the outbreak of “the great tribulation”?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          K – Rutherford wanted the JWs to be Jehovah’s earthly organization. First he had to eliminate Israel as God’s earthly organization. Next, he needed to find a Biblical Class that could be his organization. The concept of the Great Crowd already existed among Bible Students, so he tweaked (changed) the concept to apply to the members of the Watchtower Organization.

          When will most JWs be enlightened? Well they are enlightened on the errors of Hell, Trinity & Immortality of the Soul and that there will be a Paradise on Earth. They have lost their old understanding of God’s favor with natural Israel, a Ransom for ALL and that the Great Crowd is a heavenly class for those not faithful enough for the 144,0000. As to when this enlightenment will come, we cannot say for sure except that the scriptures show that the Apocalypse is associated with rescuing natural Israel and enlightening mankind as Jehovah’s activities on earth in beginning to set up the earthly kingdom beginning in Israel. Prior to then, as the light shines brighter we think and hope that more will learn. Jesus said that there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. Today we see with the Internet and 24 hour news cycle that information in all areas is available as never before. However the problem is sorting through all the errors and deceptions to find truth.

          • K

            Thanks Peter K. I noticed the Jw’s are constantly “tweeking” their doctrine to fit into it’s theology e.g.”new light” in the July 15 2013 watchtower study addition. Makes we wonder what their beliefs will be 10 years from now??

  • There are no differences between the 144000, the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep the number, quality and destiny are the same.
    The 144000 called for heavenly governance are staffed by Jews and other sheep Gentiles John 10:16:

    “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.. . . NWT

    Which fold is ‘this fold’ in the above verse?
    Why, the one the Lord was in at the time: Israel, for whom he had come (Matthew 15:24; Isaiah Chapter 53)
    The expression sheep in the entire bible applies exlusively to the flock of Jacob Israel natural and amalgamenated. (Galatians 3:28-29)
    See chapter 34 of Ezekiel and a whole host of Jehovah’s personal expressions of his love for these sheep of His inheritance.

    To save unnecessary efort and space here in this place, you may wish to go for all the fascinating details about the other sheep here:
    http://www.sanctifyname.com/othersheep.html

    As for the great crowd they are those of the multiethnic amalgam of anointed still on earth at the time of the final call and sorting of the constituent members of the heavenly King/Priests:
    Matthew 24:29-31; and 25:31-46; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52;
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
    Again much more fascinating detail about the great crowd here: http://www.sanctifyname.com/greatcrowd.html

    I just don’t have the energy to repeat myself in this place. Sorry
    Dieter

  • Why “think” God wants us to be color-blind? If one knows God and Christ that goes without saying.

    I will never buy the ideal that it “does not matter whether Jesus and the disciples were Black or White.” That, my Brother, is not the point. The point is that we should not view them as ANY color. The mention of Black and White are just “two” racial groups among the many within the human family. The world is not just made up of Black and White people.

    I respect Dr. King but his speech have been enslaving to Black people today. It is not “his” dream any should be pursuing. Our pursuit is entry into the Kingdom of God that Jesus said would come down to the earth. (Matt 6:9, 10) Only something from above can overshadow and uproot the disease and plague that is in place today – White Supremacy. I believe this is the plague Christ mentioned in his teachings.

    It saddens me each year after year we sing old Negro spirituals and chant the same “We shall overcome” slogan. All these do is lull us to sleep in a figurative sense. We are not going to overcoming anything because we are trying to be accepted in a European-conceived world that does not want us. We are trying to maintain a world that Jesus says will be destroyed. So what is there to be overcame in a world destroyed?

    As Blacks (Africans), we have been made to “stand still” by such false hopes and slogans as “I have a dream” and “We shall overcome.” They enslave us. While they sound good to the ears and appeal to the emotion, they have been a lethargic drug to us.

    I know many Blacks (Africans) who have tried to live “as Brothers” with Whites. Many Whites do not want this “unless” we cast off our African identity and adopt theirs (a European one). That is the only way they will be comfortable with us if they know we have their mindset and even believe “religiously” as they do. So the blame is primarily Whites who refuse to accept persons ANYWHERE of different colors and faiths. They seek to convert them; violently and forcefully, if necessary.

    There will be no sitting down of the Sons of former slaves and the “children” of the Slave Master on a large scale. God will end this human domination and control of others, not men. He will bring justice.

    This is not a dream, but a reality.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Jerome – Dreams do come true when we have faith in Jehovah and Jesus. Blacks and whites are arm in arm among the Bible Students. Sister Jacqueline is Black and I am white, yet our Christian love and respect for each other is true.

  • humbleman

    Hi R Jerome Harris . i enlarged the picture you are talking about to check to see if what you are saying is true I see many different races of mankind in that picture not just white people. in the book of Daniel chapter 7 he describes God has having clothing as white as snow and hair like pure wool was Daniel wrong in saying this ? because God is a spirit.i feel a balance is needed here bro humbleman

  • Many are blind. This Jesus in the picture and the people with palm branches in their hands are White people!

    There are false images everywhere.

    None of this is the truth.

    What has possessed so many of you that you envision something like this?

    Is this the deification of White people or something?

    Neither God or His Christ should be depicted in this manner.

    You have done a terrible, terrible thing and you convince yourself otherwise.

    Consider Acts 10:34-35:

    “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”

    Looks like according to this illustration God is partial and favors White people.

    Consider Exodus 20:4:

    “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.”

    You HAVE made “forms” of things in the heavens above and on the earth and underneath the earth.

    You have falsely depicted the Son of God – who is in heaven above and who is a spirit creature – as a White man. This is False.

    Don’t give me that “It’s just an illustration” line. That is a cop out and it is selfish and disses everyone else in the human family. These are particularly dangerous illustrations because they are false.

    Yet, you are supposed to be in the business of “The Truth.”

    If you REALLY are, then speak out about stuff like this. Why would any of you sit by idly and be OK with this?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Jerome – I think God wants us to be color blind. It doesn’t matter whether Jesus and the disciples were black or white. It is their message and example that matter. One of my heroes, Martin Luther King, Jr. said…

      I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
      — “I Have a Dream” speech, August 28, 1963

      We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.
      — Speech in St. Louis, Missouri, March 22, 1964

      When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every tenement and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old spiritual, “Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last.”
      — “I Have a Dream” speech, August 28, 1963

      I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
      — “I Have a Dream” speech, August 28, 1963

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