Did Jesus Have a Beginning? Was He Created?

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Christ: His Origins

The Image of the Invisible God

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.—Hebrews 1:5,6

Jesus is called the “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). Paul also says it was the Father “who . . . delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (verses 12, 13). The word “icon” in English means an image or representation of something else. Because Jesus is the representative of the Father, he is the eikon (Greek) the “image” or “picture” of what the Father is (verse 15). While most Christians agree that Jesus is not the Father, there is a difference of opinion over who Jesus is. The first chapter of Colossians gives us a part of the answer.

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15). Here Jesus is called the “firstborn [Greek: prototokos] of God.” What does “firstborn” mean in this context? The word does not necessarily mean first in birth order; prototokos also means priority in importance or rank. In the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) prototokos appears 130 times. Half the time it refers to the first born son, the other half it means preeminence. In the New Testament, prototokos (firstborn) is used in a wide variety of ways, but usually with either of these two meanings.

First-in-time or First-in-importance

Why did Paul not describe Jesus as the “first created”? This would have directly answered who Jesus is and what his role in the universe has been, is, and will be. The Greek word protoktistos does mean “first created.” However, that Greek word is not used in the New Testament. Is Paul saying that Jesus is the preeminent one of creation?

When the word firstborn is followed by the genitive “of,” it requires the firstborn to be in the class that it is of. The “firstborn of” the house of Pharaoh belongs to the house of Pharaoh. The firstborn of the beasts is a beast. The firstborn of creation is therefore a part of the creation.

“He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the “firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18). Here firstborn refers to a rebirth from death. Jesus was not the first raised from the dead, but he WAS the first who was raised to a new life, to the glory of the divine nature, the first who came back from the dead to never die again.

The word protoktistos [first created] did not come into popular use until the second and third centuries. When it first began to be used, there was little distinction between it and the word for firstborn. Clement uses these terms interchangeably in his writings. He clearly calls Christ the “first created” and later the “firstborn” in the same letters.

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him” (Colossians 1:16, KJV). Jesus was the agent of creation; he was not the Creator himself. We see the same Greek word (di or dia) translated “by” in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:3. Jesus is before all creation, the first in a series, because through him God MADE the creation. A similar phrase in 1 Corinthians 15:26,27 (NIV) says that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death.” For he “has put everything under his feet.” The next verse goes on to say that the “everything” excludes God himself who put everything under Christ.

The word “all” (Greek: pas) can be translated “all other” or “everyone.” It is so translated in Luke 13:2 (NIV) and 21:29, and Philippians 2:21. Paul is not teaching that Jesus is distinct from the creation. 1 Corinthi­ans 8:6 explains that God the father is the source of all creation, while the son is the agency through which creation occurred (see also Proverbs 8:22-30; John 1:1-3). “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17, NIV). Jesus is before all things that were created through him.

“In these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world. The son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence [image of God—Colossians 1:15], and he sustains all things by his powerful word [now in these last days, now after he was raised to the glory on high], and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Thus he became so far better than the angels.” (Hebrews 1:2-4, NET; comments supplied.) Not only was the son the agent of creation in his pre-human existence, but since being raised to his resurrection glory, he continues to be the instrument by which the universe adheres or remains together.

Firstborn from the Dead

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning [Greek: arche], the firstborn [prototokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence” (Colossians 1:18).

Jesus is the arche (beginning) and prototokos (firstborn) from the dead. To what do these words refer? They refer to Jesus as the head of the body of Christ, the first who would be raised from the dead never to die again. Both words can refer to anything that is the “first of a series.”

“He is the beginning of the Christian church, the root, the fountain and foundation of it, the active beginning, or the first principle and author of it, and of all those influences of grace and spiritual life which animate and en­liven it. . . He is called the first-born from the dead . . . because he was the first that arose to an immortal life, never to die more; all others that were raised to life, besides him, died again, but death had no more dominion over him.”—Burkett’s Notes on the New Testament

Jesus had preeminence in all things over the old creation AND the new creation. The word “preeminence” also literally means “to be first.” Jesus was the first creation and he was the first who rose from the dead never to die again. Jesus was first in all things!

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Revelation 3:14). The book of Colossians was also shared with those in the Laodicean church (see Colossians 4:16). In the message to Laodicea in the book of Revelation the same thoughts about Jesus Christ are also found. It says that he is the “beginning [arche] of creation.” (Compare Revelation 3:14 with Colossians 1:15.) In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 Jesus tells each of the churches, “I am this,” and “I am that.” In this verse Jesus tells us he is the arche of the creation of God.

Greek scholars will say that arche in this sentence structure could mean that Jesus is the first created being, or that he is the ruler over all creation. It could even mean that Jesus was the source or origin of all creation although it does not have this definition anywhere in the New Testament. When discussing the word arche, a Trinitarian in his book says that “it must be admitted that the word might bear this meaning” (in the sense that Jesus was the first created being). He then goes on to quote Alford’s commentary, saying that “arche out of this context could possibly mean, ‘the Christ is the first created being.’” (See Robert M. Bowman, Should You Believe in the Trinity, p. 65.) Although he says that arche could be taken “out of. . . . context,” he does not explain his reasoning. The context of Revelation 3 certainly does not prohibit or encourage any specific definition to help us understand what this word means.

Other commentaries state a similar principle that the word arche and the grammar of Revelation 3:14 do not prohibit the idea that Jesus is the first created being. Every time the word arche is used by John in his writings in the singular form, he uses it to mean first in time.  Never once does he use it to mean origin or source. The point of Revelation 3:14 is that Jesus is the first of all creation.

Did God Make the World Through Wisdom or Through Jesus?

If Jesus is indeed the first created being, how can we say Jesus created all things? ­(Colossians 1:15,16) Proverbs chapter 8 helps to answer this question. “The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago” (Proverbs 8:22, TEV). “Get wisdom, though it cost all you have, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7, NIV).

Romans proclaims that the world is without the wisdom of God. It says that that the world is “without excuse” (Romans 1:20) because they should recognize the power of God in creation. But even today they do not know God and continue to sin. Nor do they know the son who was sent to redeem man, who is the Word of God, “the true light which lighteth every man [individually, without exception] that cometh into the world” (John 1:9). As a spoken word reveals invisible thought, so Christ the living Word reveals the invisible God. Jesus, as the mediator between God and man, said “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9, NIV).

By definition wisdom is the application of knowledge, i.e., “daily practical living.” Wisdom is nothing unless it is manifested. God manifested his wisdom to us through Christ: “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:24,30; see also Col 2:3).

The evangelist alludes to the pre-existence of Jesus in Luke 11:49 when he identifies Jesus as the “wisdom of God.” The Barnes’ Noteson this Scripture say: “By the wisdom of God, here, is undoubtedly meant the Saviour himself.”

Luke 11:49 (AV) “Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute…”

There is no Old Testament passage Jesus is referring to.  Rather he is referring to his own words, describing himself as wisdom.  To verify, compare with the Matthew verse below.

Matt 23:29, 34 (AV) “29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees… 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:”

Therefore in Luke 11:49, it is Jesus (as wisdom) saying that he will send prophets and apostles, etc.

In Proverbs we find that God made the world through his wisdom: “The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth” (Proverbs 3:19). This is exactly the thought of Colossians 1:15,16 concerning Christ: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth.” Here Jesus is called the firstborn of every creature, which is the same thought of Jesus as God’s wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30. “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning . . . When there was no depths I was brought forth. . . . Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.”

Jesus loves those who seek him and love him: “I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me” (Proverbs 8:17; see also Proverbs 1:28). Jesus leads in the way of righteousness just as wisdom does: “I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment” (Proverbs 8:20). Beginning with the early church fathers even to our own time Christians of all theological persuasions—Arians, Sabellians (Oneness), Unitarians, even Trinitarians—have for centuries applied Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to Jesus Christ.

“Wisdom here has personal properties and actions; and that intelligent divine person can be no other than the son of God himself, to whom the principal things here spoken of wisdom are attributed in other Scriptures.”—Matthew Henry Commentary

Jewish commentaries understood wisdom in Proverbs 8 to refer to a creature. “The Targum makes this wisdom a creature, by thus translating the passage: . . . ‘God created me in the beginning of his creatures.’ The Syriac is the same.”—Clarke’s Commentary

Wisdom says, “Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you” (Proverbs 1:23). Jesus said, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me” (John 15:26).

Many Bible commentators for centuries have understood Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to be descriptive of the works of Jesus Christ. contains the instructions of Wisdom or Christ; showing the excellency of them, and the author of them, in opposition to the harlot and her “This chapter allurements, in the preceding chapter.”—Gill’s Commentary

“It is a great question what this wisdom is. Some understand it of the Divine wisdom; ­others of [Christ] . . . the chapter may be ­understood of Christ considered partly in his ­personal capacity, and partly in regard of his office, which was to impart the mind and will of God to mankind.”—Wesley’s Notes

Can Wisdom be a Personification of Jesus?

Some argue that Wisdom can not be a personification of Jesus because Wisdom is feminine and Jesus was male: “Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth HER voice?” (Proverbs 8:1). Although the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is feminine, because wisdom is personified it is only a matter of grammar. Although war is normally associated with men going into battle, the Hebrew word for war is also feminine. Many non-English languages ascribe gender to nouns. The Polish word for “table” is masculine, but it is feminine in French. The gender of the Hebrew word for wisdom has no bearing on the object to which it refers. Jesus is prophetically spoken of as the “sun of righteousness” in Malachi 4:2; the Hebrew word for “sun” is also feminine (Strong’s 8121). See Strong’s Morphological Dictionary for word gender.

‘They are proclaimed from on high: She stands in the top of high places’ (Proverbs 8:2); it was from the top of Mount Sinai that the law was given, and Christ expounded it in a sermon upon the mount.”—Matthew Henry

Some say that this can not be prophetic of Christ because he did not cry out in the streets. Yet we read: “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets” (Matthew 12:17; see also Isaiah 42:1,2). These words are quoted from Isaiah by Matthew to explain why he retreated from his enemies and sought to hide himself. Those familiar with Jesus’ ministry know that Jesus did cry out the message of God in the streets. The Hebrew word translated cry is Strong’s 7121 which means “to preach.” Jesus preached everywhere he went.

In Proverbs 9 Wisdom is contrasted with Foolishness. If Wisdom is Christ and Wisdom is contrasted with its opposite, then foolishness must be that which is the opposite of Christ, i.e., the Antichrist who is represented as a “woman” in Revelation 17:3,4,6,18.

There are differences about the meaning of the word qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as to whether it means “possessed” or “created.” From a footnote on the NET translation of Proverbs 8:22 found at www.bible.org: “There are two roots in Hebrew, one meaning ‘to possess,’ and the other meaning ‘to create.’ The older translations did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Genesis 4:1; 14:19; Deuteronomy 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation ‘possess’ because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation ‘create.’ Athanasius translated it, ‘constituted me as the head of creation.’ The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of ‘to acquire’; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning ‘create.’ Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (‘appointed,’ ‘given birth’) argue for the translation of ‘create’ or ‘establish’ (R. N. Whybray, ‘Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,’VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, ‘Where Will Wisdom Be Found?’ JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).” Many translators render qanahas “created.”.

“Gesenius gives as the primary meaning of qanah: ‘to get, to gain, to obtain, to acquire.’ Davies gives it the meaning of ‘to form or make, to get or acquire, to gain or buy.’ Strong defines qanah as ‘to erect, i.e., to create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase.’ ” —The Great Debate, by Robert Wagoner

Regardless of the controversy surrounding the meaning of this word, contextually Wisdom is still spoken of as being “brought forth”: ”When there were no depths, I was brought forth” (Proverbs 8:24). The Hebrew word translated “brought forth” means “to be brought forth, to be born.” Wisdom was indeed “brought forth” and this helps us understand the context and meaning of this chapter and especially what “possessed” means in verse 22.

“Then I was by him, as one brought up [Strong’s #525: “artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman”] with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him” (Proverbs 8:30).  Not only can the word “possess” in this context have the meaning of “create” as translated in the Septuagint and Syriac, but we also see that Wisdom was brought up, was trained, and was the master workman of God’s creative works.

Testimony of Early Church Fathers

In the early third century, Origin, in his commentary on the Gospel of John said, “But Christ is demiurge as a beginning (arche), inasmuch as He is wisdom. It is in virtue of His being wisdom that He is called arche. For Wisdom says in Solomon: Proverbs 8:22   God created me the beginning of His ways, for His works, so that the Word might be in an arche, namely, in wisdom.”

In the Council of Nicaea, (325 AD), all three parties (Arians, Nicene Church Fathers and pre-Nicene CF)  applied Proverbs 8:22 to Jesus Christ, yet each did so differently. Even so, all factions were unified in applying the passage to Jesus.

Trinitarian scholar Edmund Fortman writes: “Paul applied it [Prov. 8:22-30] to the Son of God. The Apologists [Christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries] used it to prove to Gentile and Jew the pre-existence of the Word and his role in creation.” – (See CREEDS 5-16: quotes from the writings of Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Justin Martyr which equate the Son with “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 and admit that he had been created by God as the beginning of God’s works – Prov. 8:22.)

No Scripture States that Jesus Existed from Eternity

As can be seen, the passages spoken of thus far can be interpreted multiple ways which fit both contextually and grammatically.  Although one point of view has been presented in this article, the burden of proof must come from the other side. There are no Scriptures which state that the Son of God existed from eternity and did not have a beginning.

Passages that have been attempted to prove such a concept either do not fit contextually or grammatically. One such passage is found in the prophetic passage regarding the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.

“With a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek. But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:1-2)

Some have proposed that this passage states that it is Jesus’ who has come from eternity, that he has not had a beginning, however the passage merely states that his goings forth, or his works, have been from everlasting. This is because God has planned the sacrifice of his son who was born in Bethlehem so that he could be the Savior of the world.

The passage does not say that the ruler that would come from Bethlehem was God himself, but that he would be one who would go forth “for me”, for God, to be the ruler in Israel. The “days of old” here are translated from the Hebrew word, “Olam,” elsewhere translated by the same prophet Micah as “the days of Old” when speaking of the flocks which would feed in Bashan and Gilead as the days of old.

The same words are also used in Proverbs 8:22-23, where is speaks of the one who was created in the beginning of the way, before the works of old. This one was established from “everlasting”, from the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

Yes, Jesus is the master workman of God’s creative works! He was the first of Jehovah’s creative acts, and it was with his assistance that all other things came into being. Truly this great being who plays so many important roles in the great plan of the ages is worthy of our adoration and worship!

Contributed by Jeff Mezera

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64 comments to Did Jesus Have a Beginning? Was He Created?

  • Born Again Christian

    How can all things be through God, if God is only the Father?
    Romans 11:32-36
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
    34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
    Or who has become His counselor?”[a]
    35 “ Or who has first given to Him
    And it shall be repaid to him?”[b]
    36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Born Again Christian – I am not sure I understand your point, but I do think the scriptures teach that Jehovah created everything through Jesus.

      1 Cor 8:6 (NASV) 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

      Col 1: (NASV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

  • Malcolm Little

    “To me it doesn’t matter what he looked like, but what matters is what is message was and what example he set”.

    I could not agree more. But if you honestly feel that way, then why not have a depiction of Jesus that is more realistic and more fitting to one who came from a Palestinian background. That’s all. Maybe I am wrong, I don’t know.

    But I thank you for being a true gentleman about it. And I hope you forgive me for judging your comment so wrongly.

    Respectfully & peaceably
    Malcolm

  • Malcolm Little

    “Do these pictures offend you?”
    No, they do not offend me sir, but from the tone and manner of your response it would appear that you are the one who is offended. Offended by my question.

    I mean does the subject disturb you?
    Are you threatened by it?
    Are you not emotionally or spiritually mature enough to deal with it?
    Or are just like most people emotionally and mentally attached to a Caucasian Jesus?

    Something to think about, right?

    Respectfully
    Malcolm

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Malcolm Little – I was not offended. I was just asking to understand what you are thinking. Forgive me if I had an offensive tone. It was not intended. Thanks.

      To me it doesn’t matter what he looked like, but what matters is what is message was and what example he set.

  • Malcolm Little

    So the Caucasian and long haired Jesus image, that is so commonly used and accepted by most religious and non-religious people alike, is also being used by this website purely for the sake of custom & tradition?
    In other words you do not wish to question or cause controversy regarding the long held sentimental belief of a falsely unbiblical depiction of Jesus?

    Respectfully
    Malcolm

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Malcolm – Do you have a picture you can link us to that shows how Jesus really looked? Do you know what he looked like? Why is this so important to you? In each of our posts we are trying to convey a message. These pictures of Jesus, that people are familiar with, often help convey his love, compassion, mercy, etc. Do these pictures offend you?

  • Jacqueline

    Hi Malcolm Little, welcome to the forum,Let me take a stab at this, (just an opinion).
    Most persons looking at that picture will say “oh, this article is about Jesus”, just from the picture alone. Because as you say it’s what most Christian religions would expect. What did he really look like? The scriptures are silent on that. His mother was a Jewish woman and they wore beards, but we don’t know what characteristics his father imparted (Jehovah). Because we don’t know what he looked like either. I know his hair wasn’t as tight as mine, because mine is from genetic bottlenecking. In fact after his resurrection it seems he wasn’t concerned for they never recognized him on several occasions until he opened his mouth. Thomas wanted to see the nails for ID. So at least on those occasions it was what came out of his mouth, and the nail holes of the impalement. His looks added nothing really. And it adds nothing now, except that we don’t want to distract from the sacrifice and the words he spoke when on the earth and the Revelation and the words of his father. With me, it is not a salvation issue.
    But thanks for asking that, I am sure others have wondered also. Take Care my brother.

  • Malcolm Little

    Hello,

    I am just curious to know why your depictions of Jesus are like most of the other Christian websites in that you portray him as Caucasian with fairly long hair.

    Is there any historical or scriptural backing for this?

    Thanks

  • Born Again Christian

    The Father and the Son are one God, Proof#1:
    Proverbs 30:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
    4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
    Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
    Who has bound the waters in a garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
    If you know?
    a. This verse really shows you the equality of the Father and the Son, what the Father did, so is the Son, because they are one God.
    b. The question at the beginning is who has, which is singular in nature, but at the end of the verse, it is asking for the Father’s name and the name of his Son. Why is it like that? Because the Father and the Son are two persons but one God only, this also tells you that the Father and the Son has only one name, because by using “who has” instead of “who were” for the Father’s name and the Son’s name, it is implying that the Father and the Son has only one name, because they are only one God.

    The Father and the Son are one God, Proof#2:
    Luke 1:68 New King James Version (NKJV)
    68 “ Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people.
    a. Who is the Lord God of Israel? Answer: The Father
    b. Who has visited and redeemed Israel? Answer: The Son
    c. Who is the Lord God of Israel that has visited and redeemed his people? Is it the Father or the Son?
    d. The Father and the Son are one God.

    The Father and the Son are one God, Proof#3:
    Isaiah 62:5 New Living Translation (NLT)
    5 Your children will commit themselves to you, O Jerusalem,
    just as a young man commits himself to his bride.
    Then God will rejoice over you
    as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.
    Hosea 2:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
    16 “ And it shall be, in that day,”
    Says the LORD,
    “ That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’[a]
    And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’[b]
    Revelation 19:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
    7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”
    Revelation 21:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me[a] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[b
    a. In Isaiah 62:5 and Hosea 2:16, the LORD God is the future husband of the Church.
    b. In Revelation 19:7 and 21:9, it is the Son who would marry the Church.
    c. Who would be the future husband of the Church? Is it the Father or the Son?
    d. The Father and the Son are one God.

    The Father and the Son are one God, Proof#4:
    Revelation 22:3-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
    3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.
    a. The subject of the verse is the Father and the Son.
    b. Shouldn’t it be “thrones” instead of “throne”, since it is referring to the Father and the Son?
    c. Shouldn’t it be “Their servants shall serve Them”, since it is referring to the Father and the Son?
    d. Shouldn’t it be “They shall see Their faces”, since it is referring to the Father and the Son?
    e. Shouldn’t it be “and Their names shall be on their foreheads”, since it is referring to the Father and the Son?
    f. While the verse is clearly referring to the Father and the Son and still used “His name shall be on their foreheads”, this implies that the Father and the Son have only one name, because they are only one God.
    g. The Father and the Son are one God.
    I have 30 proofs that the Father and the Son are one God, I just gave you only 4 proofs for now.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Born Again Christian: All your proofs “imply,” in your mind, but don’t prove anything. Can you provide one passage in the Bible that explains the Trinity, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons, but one God?

      RESPONSE TO YOUR PROOFS:

      Proof 1: But the Father and Son do not have only one name in common. The Father is Jehovah (or Yaweh) and the Son is Jesus.

      Proof 2: God often accomplishes his purposes through representatives. For example, God appeared to Moses (Ex 3:4 ) through an angel (Ex 3:2). Jesus was the agency though which he created the world, but that does not make them the same person.

      Proof 3: Jehovah was a husband to natural Israel (Jer 31:32) when he led them out of Egypt and will be a husband to them again on Paradise Earth (Isa 62:5)

      Proof 4: Since Jesus’ followers will sit with him on his throne, does that make them a part of the Trinity too? Rev 3:21

  • Born Again Christian

    John 8:57-59 God’s Word Translation
    57The Jews said to Jesus, “You’re not even fifty years old. How could you have seen Abraham?”
    58Jesus told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”
    59Then some of the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. However, Jesus was concealed, and he left the temple courtyard.
    Here the Son uses “before Abraham was ever born, I am” he didn’t say “before Abraham was ever born, I was”
    if the Son uses I was, then he would have a beginning just like Abraham, but he uses I am, present tense, forever present, indicating that the Son did not have a beginning or would have an end, he is eternal.
    Here is something to think about:
    I had my firstborn when I was 29 years of age, that is when I became a father, so for 28 years, I cannot be called father, because I never had a child yet. Our Father in heaven is called the eternal Father, because he has an eternal Son. If the Son is not eternal, then there would be a point in eternity that he was not a Father, then how could you call him an eternal Father?

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Born Again Christian, welcome and thank you for commenting. I and most persons coming to this site are in agreement with the source test presented in the article. We appreciate your imput. The trinity is a subject that has been discussed somewhat spiritively for centuries. We have had discussions for what would have been a long time on this site. There are some sites that are devoted to discussing this subject. We were at one time able to point another reader to one of these. You will probably hit your target audience of persons debating the trinity. There is not much of an audience here for it. This site is geared more toward those with beliefs similar to the Bible Students and Jehovah Witnesses. If we were to get into a discussion on these pages it would benefit only a few.
      Thank you so much for your imput however and many will read it.
      This is only my personal statement. Others may have some other thoughts. Sincerely, Jacqueline

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Born Again Christian – Jesus said ““before Abraham was ever born, I am” because from the time of Abraham to the time he spoke, he never ceased to exist. To say “I was” would imply there would have been a time when he did not exist. What scripture are you referring to that says “eternal Son?”

  • Unforsaken

    Have you ever heard from Jesus directly? He loves you. I have heard of Jesus… who is Russel… just a dis-illutioned lier who mislead millions. millions who were living then are now dead. You pump up russel but won’t accept the truth of the Bible on it’s own merrit. You need to be lead not by Holy Spirit as scripture says but buy an organization…. (By the way… Jesus saved most of his critisisms for organized religion). All would do well to seek out the true vine (Jesus), who all who want life must abide in. Russel himself would tell you the same… religion is a snare.. get out of it.

    • Jacqueline

      Hi unforsaken, thanks for commenting. I believe it was Br. Rutherford that said “millions now living will never die”. The Bible Students do not have an organization. You are confusing us with Jehovah Witnesses. I agree with you, one must be led by Holy Spirit not an organization. The Sanhedrin had indeed developed in Jesus’ day. And I agree with you that Jesus is the answer. I am sure others will reply to you also, take care.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Unforsaken – Yes, like you, I have heard from Jesus directly through his Word, the Bible. As Jacqueline said, we agree with you in that we don’t believe God has an organization. There is no scripture that indicates that he does. The closest thing you can say that God ever had to an organization was the kingdom of Israel and that organization was corrupt and rebellious. So hypothetically, if Jehovah had an organization today, wouldn’t the same danger exist. The religious leaders of the old so called organization, convinced the Jewish people to crucify Jesus. Jesus’ real organization are the members that make up is body (1 Cor 12).

      Eph 4:”15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” NASV

      Now if you want to criticize Russell, the first thing I need to recommend is that your provide a specific and concrete example of how he was disillusioned and mislead millions. It is more loving to criticize specific issues people support, rather than the individuals themselves. Remember that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others (Matt 7:2). Jas 4:11 says, “Do not say evil against one another, my brothers.” BBE. Also, Eph 4:29 says, “ Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.” NASV

  • Anonymous

    please explain if the New Testament states like you said “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him” (Colossians 1:16, KJV). How do you explain Isa. 44:24 ” Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread forth the earth by myself;”

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