Isaiah 43:10 – YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. NWT
Is Isaiah 43:10 speaking about today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses?
No, it is not. Find out why not and find out who the real Jehovah’s Witnesses are by clicking here:
I suppose right here! 🙂
You know, he closes the whole treatise with a very ambigious, and loose belief in what he wrote.(No offense, it’s just my opinion)
He says, ‘God is incomprehensible’, and ‘we get into to trouble when we try to pinpoint what his nature is’, and again ‘he is far above human intillect’.
With all of these things i agree, in fact, they are the arguments that us who believe in the triune nature of God would use ourselves!
Here is my main concern Kris:
Was Jesus created or not? This author states that it doesn’t make much difference because of the Man Christ Jesus’ inferiority to God the Father. So as long as we honor him we are alright. But i say that God wants us to know him, and as John 17:3 states this intimate knowledge of God is Eternal life! It is important to know exactly who Jesus is. Is Jesus uncreated or created? If he is uncreated/eternal, he is YHWH. If he is created/had a beginning, he is a creature.
It makes all the difference in the world and i will show you why…….
EXODUS 34:14
“-for you shall not worship any other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-”
a few things to draw from this
*we can only worship Jehovah, and no one else
*if we cross-reference ISAIAH 43:10-11 we see that Jehovah is the only God in existence, therefore worship of anything, or anyone else is idolatry and evil!
What about Jesus?? If Jesus is created, he CANNOT be God, a god, demi-god, or anything that has to do with polytheism. Why? look at Isaiah, plain and simple there is only one God and none else!
Some say we can worship Jesus even though he isn’t God. Really??
ROMANS 1:25
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
afew things to draw from this
*worshiping a created being is evil in the sight of God
*serving a created being is evil in the sight of God
Now look at these verses for me:
JUDE 4
……ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
whom does Jude say he serves in this verse??
REVELATION 5:12-14
……Worthy is the Lamb……..To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb………And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and WORSHIPED.
JOHN 5:23
..so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Was Jesus worshiped in this verse??
Is the only way to worship the Father by worshiping the Son the same exact way??
Is this how we give glory to the Father THROUGH the Son?
I’ll cut it short for any responses, and I appreciate your interest Kris. Peter stated that the only place that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are used together is in Matthew 28:19.
What about:
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
2 Corinthians 13:14
Ephesians 4:4-7
1 Peter 1:2
Jude 20-21
Matthew 3:16-17
Mark 1:10-11
Luke 3:22
John 14:16-17
John 14:26
John 15:26
John 16:14-15
Romans 8:9
Just to name a few
Alex – When the author said that God is incomprehensible, he continued, “…When we start talking about what “stuff” God is composed of we are talking out of a profound ignorance.” The early fathers had lots of disagreements, some believed that God and Jesus are composed of the same substance. This idea was drawn from pagan beliefs and there is no scriptural evidence to substantiate it. Do you believe God and Jesus are composed of the same substance or do you think some of these early Fathers were wrong?
Alex – There is no other verse in the Bible where we find the “Father,” “Son” and “Holy Spirit” all mentioned together in the same verse. The word “Father is in the Eph 4:4-7 citation that you provided. “4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.”
In the above passage, the word “Son” does not appear, however the “One God and Father” in verse 6 is distinguished from the “One Lord” (Jesus) in verse 5. If we are going to make them the same, why not also the “one body” in verse 4. Just because you can find a group of verses in the Bible that talks about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, among other things, is no evidence that the three of these are all the same one person.
I’ve actually downloaded it before and have read parts of it……..where do i comment!??
Sorry, that was me.
Alex
Shalom Alex, I am doing fine, how are you and Joey? My life is just looking up and I am happier than I’ve been for some time. I am making plans for the summer events, the General convention and time with my family in other parts of the US. I retired In October, so I want to do more to help any that are spiritually in pain because of the org. That seems to be the way the Holy Spirit points and moves me.
Hi Alex,
For your convenience we have attached a link to the Father/Son relationship treatise by br. Ron Frye. It would be great if you could read some or all of it and give us your impressions. Check the link on the right side under Books – Electronic – Trinity – The Father/Son relationship.
Thanks,
Kris
Hey Peter, I wouldn’t mind if you opened up a thread on the sharing of roles & titles by the Father & Son. You are right, this thread isn’t for that discussion. But, you and i have discussed this before, and i wouldn’t mind seeing others opinions and approach to this dividing subject between us evangelical christians and those who deny that Jesus is YHWH in the flesh.
I know you are busy, so i appreciate your time as always. I will be looking forward toward this thread if you are up for the challenge. Thank you Peter
ps. I hope you are doing wonderful Jaqueline, Joey and i have kept you in our prayers.
Shalom
Hello Jehovah Witness,
I think most of the people visiting here are aware of the JW beliefs as they are either one or has been one for quite some time. The discussion is not “who are THE Jehovah Witnesses”, the organization. It is who are the witnesses for Jehovah mentioned in Isa. 43:10. I hope this helps you to understand the discussion. Thanks so much for commenting. Enjoy the site. Your sister Jacqueline
If you want to know who Jehovah’s Witnesses are and what their beliefs are, then examine these sites. There is a lot misinformation about Jehovah’s Witnesses on the Internet, which is half true, but with essential details omitted. Some of it is propaganda-oriented. These sites are from Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves:
Jehovah’s Witnesses public information site
Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs
Also, there is a good unbiased page on Jehovah’s Witnesses on the KNOCKING.org PBS documentary page. BBC also has good information on Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Witnesses of Jehovah and Jesus are the same because Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the New. That’s not to say that Jesus is the Father, but it is saying that Jehovah is NOT the Father. The OT says that Jehovah will come to judge the nations, but John 5:22 says that the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son. And Zechariah quotes Jehovah as saying that they, the Jews, shall look upon “me, whom they have pierced.” And Psalms 110:1-2 says that “the Lord saith unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand….” Who was David’s Lord? Jehovah. Yet the Father is speaking to him. Thus, we as Christians acknowledge that Jehovah is the Christ, the only intercessor between the Father and Man.
Stargater – Thanks for sharing your point of view. This topic is really not about the Trinity. However, since you bring it up, if Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus of the New Testament, how come none of the Apostles tell us that? This would be such a major point, why didn’t Jesus or the Apostles ever just come out and explain what the Trinity was and how important it was? Not only is the word Trinity not found in the Bible, but the only place where you will find the Father, Son and Holy Spirit mentioned together is in Matt 28:19. There is evidence to suggest that those words were added later and are not part of the original text. However, even if we accept the verse exactly as stated, it provides no evidence to support the Trinity, because nothing in the verse indicates that these three are all the same person or that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The fact that Jehovah and Jesus share certain title or roles, does not make them the same person any more than a King and his coregent son are the same person. Although Jehovah and Jesus share the role of judging, that does not make them both the same person. As Christ’s anointed body members, the Bride (Little Flock) will share the role of judging Israel and mankind on Paradise earth. That does not make them part of the Trinity along with Jehovah and Jesus.
JUDGES OF ISRAEL & THE WORLD
1 Cor 6:2 – “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” NKJV
Matt 19:28 – “in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. NKJV
Dan 7:27 – “the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints” NIV
I like what the linked article states about The “Witnesses” of Jehovah. . .
—————-QUOTE———————————
Were delivered from the land of Egypt (43:3)
Offered animal sacrifices to the Lord (43:23)
Transgressed the Law Covenant (43:24,25)
Are forgiven for the Lord’s sake (43:25)
Are being regathered from all over the world to the Holy Land (43:5,6)
These five stated identifications are true only of one people—the Jews! Therefore, it is clear that the Jewish people—the “ancient people,” “my chosen”—are the real “Witnesses” of Jehovah (44:7; 43:20).
—————-QUOTE———————————
The Jewish people are truly Yahweh’s witnesses. Their restoration as a nation in modern times is a testament to God’s foreknowledge, and his loving care over his chosen people during their long dispersion.
Great question! Who are YHWH’s true witnesses? Hmm….what does Jesus have to say, after all we should listen to him.
ACTS 1:8 …’but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses…….’
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2 ‘To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours…..’
John 8:24 ‘Therefore I said to you that you will dies in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.’
So folks, it’s seems without to much prooftexting, distorting, or allowing false doctrine to blind us, the answer lies before our very eyes!
Who are YHWH’s witnesses???
* those who are witnesses to Jesus Christ
* those that call on his name!
* those that believe that ‘I am He’ obviously is Jesus the Christ!
Remeber John 5:23 ‘…so that all will honor the Son just as they honor Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.’
Have you really honored the Father? Have you really honored the Son? Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit, and received HIM into your body so as to be a witness for Jesus?
If not friends, you mine as well hang it up.
2 CORINTHIANS 13:14
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.’
Alex – It’s true the we are to be witnesses for Jesus. Thanks for reminding us. This article is specifically addressing how to apply Isa 43:10 and that is talking about the Jews.
I have read that article and I have to “comment” something
This is sure that “Jehovah’s witness” is not the name for God’s worshipers , it is a title or a quality ! The name is “Christians” .
But now, regarding the above article…
The author is right , from the LITERAL point of view …
But we wants to be Christians , so we MUST obey Father’s command :
“This is My beloved Son ; listen to Him ! ”
And the Son has taught us that Father wants “worshiper with spirit…”
“with spirit” means understanding God’s word “spiritually” , or according to God’s will , or to God’s point of view , because “God is spirit” !
So, a Christian , worshiper “with spirit” after searching this subject will get the true conclusion , or “the truth”
Firstly, an loving exhortation from “Elijah” :
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/161688/1/Strange-e-mail-from-Romania
in Christ,
rus virgil