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DOES JESUS HAVE A BODY OF FLESH?

DEFINITION OF SPIRIT

pneuma ^4151^ primarily denotes “the wind” (akin to pneo, “to breathe, blow”); also “breath”; then, especially “the spirit,” which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.  (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

HEAVEN AND IT’S OCCUPANTS ARE INVISIBLE

Col 1:16: For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  (NKJ)

2 Cor 4:18: while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (NKJ)

Jesus is in heaven: Luke 24:51 “While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.” (see also John 20:17 “‘I ascend to My Father”).  Also, 1 Thess 4:16 says “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.”

CHRISTIANS GET A SPIRIT BODY IN THE RESURRECTION

John 3:6-8, 13   “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit…  No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.  (NKJ)

1 Cor 15:40:  There are also celestial [heavenly] bodies, and bodies terrestrial [earthly]: but the glory of the celestial [heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [earthly] is another. (KJV)

1 Cor 15:44:  It is sown [we are born in] a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  (NKJ)

I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (NKJ) [Since Jesus has a spirit body, then so will we since we are to be like him]

ANGLES ARE INVISIBLE SPIRITS

Heb 1:7, 14 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”  Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (NKJ)

Mark 12:25 “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [in heaven everything is invisible]  (NKJ)

II Ki 6:15-17 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my masTer! What shall we do?”  So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”  And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.  (NKJ)

Acts 8:6-7 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.  For unclean spirits [fallen angels], crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.  (NKJ)   [No one could see these fallen angels.  They were invisible.]

Mark 1:23-27 Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit [fallen angel]. And he cried out,  saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are– the Holy One of God!”  But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!”  And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.  Then they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? What new doctrine is this? For with authority He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”  (NKJ)

GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

John 4:24 God is Spirit…(NKJ)

Col 1:15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God…  (NKJ)

1 Tim 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.   (NKJ)

Exod 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”  (NKJ)

John 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12: No one has seen God at any time. (NKJ)

JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

1 Pet 3:18 being put to death in deed in flesh, But made alive in spirit Rotherham

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; (NKJ) (2 Cor 1:3 – “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” KJV)

1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit. (KJV)

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  (NKJ) [compare “image” with 1 Cor 15:49 below]

1 Cor 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Jesus] is the Lord from heaven.   As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  (KJV)

Acts 9:1-9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest  and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.  And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”  And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”  So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” And the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”  And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.  Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.  And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.  (NKJ)

SPIRIT BEINGS IN HEAVEN DO NOT HAVE BODIES OF FLESH

1 Cor 15:49-50 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.   (KJV)

Luke 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”  [When Jesus or an angel materializes, they temporarily leave their spirit state, and occupy a body of flesh.  That’s how angels ate a meal with Abraham, how the fallen angels conceived children through woman, and how Thomas was able to touch and feel Jesus after his resurrection.] (NKJ)

HOW DID JESUS DISCIPLES RECOGNIZE HIM AFTER HIS RESURRECTION?

Luke 24:35 [The two disciples on the road to Emmaus]  And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.  (NKJ)

Mark 16:12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.  (NKJ)

John 20:14-17 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.   Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”   Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).   (NKJ)

John 21:1-13 After these things Jesus showed Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and in this way He showed Himself:   Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together.   Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.” They said to him, “We are going with you also.” They went out and immediately got into the boat, and that night they caught nothing.   But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus.   Then Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?” They answered Him, “No.”  [They didn’t recognize his voice.]   And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.  Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it), and plunged into the sea.   But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish.   Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread.   Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.”   Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.   Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”– knowing that it was the Lord.  [If he looked like Jesus, why would they even consider asking?]   Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish.   (NKJ)

HOW DO WE EXPLAIN REV 1:7?

Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.  (NKJ)  [They will see him through the evidences of his return, beginning at the time of Israel’s deliverance (Eze 38:22,23; 39:6,7,27)]

Heb 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,  choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.  (NKJ)

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,  (NKJ)

THE WORLD WON”T SEE JESUS WHEN HE RETURNS

John 14:19 A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.   (NKJ)

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: (NKJ)

I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.  (NKJ)  [This promise is made to the Christians, not the world.]

John 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”  (NKJ)  [Since he gave his flesh as the ransom (corresponding) price in place of Adam, he cannot take it back.]

ARE THESE SCRIPTURES LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  (KJV)

II Th 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angelsIn flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  (KJV)

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (KJV)

Rev 19:11-16 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  (NKJ)

The only way to harmonize these four scriptures is to take them symbolically.  Otherwise they contradict each other.  These scriptures are explained in detail in the Studies in the Scriptures series.

146 comments to DOES JESUS HAVE A BODY OF FLESH?

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hi Sam and thanks for commenting. Elaborate a little for us if you’d like. These thrones or judgement seats, where would you say they are. John here is seeing a vision of these things.
      I would say the rulership seen would be from heaven, Is that what you are saying?

  • greg (Bible Student)

    Hi Bret.

    It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

    I agree that the Bible refers to “spirit bodies.” I agree that they must, at some level, be tangible. However, I do not believe that such “substance” must be limited to the same “matter” as constitutes the “material universe.” I believe that such wordings and phrasings are descriptive, not ascriptive. In other words, the words the Bible writers used were attempts to convey something unfamiliar in terms which were already familiar.

    To attempt a possibly awkward illustration: I might speak with someone about the color of a car I see. I might describe it to them as bluish-green. But calling it bluish-green isn’t what makes it bluish-green. The color is what the color is. In another language, especially one in which there is NO WORD for the color blue, it’s going to be much more difficult–and possibly very different sounding–to describe. (Compare the article “Blue–green distinction in language” on Wikipedia.)

    So for us who live in a material universe, it’s going to be very difficult to communicate about things which simply do not “exist” in our limited frame of reference. I believe that is why 2 Cor. 5:16,17 speaks using the phrase “new creation” and Heb. 1:3,4 refers to the resurrected Jesus having being made so much better than the angels. It’s really hard to explain something which is completely unfamiliar in terms which are familiar.

    I believe Brother Russell makes some very valuable, insightful, and logical expressions in the Studies in the Scriptures which would be very illuminating on the subject. Perhaps you’ve already read them, but if not, I can recommend the following chapters to further your research:

    Volume 6, “The New Creation”, Study 2 – “The New Creation”
    Volume 2, “The Time is at Hand”, Study 5 – “Manner of the Second Advent”
    and Volume 1, “The Divine Plan of the Ages”, Study 10 – “Natures Separate and Distinct”

    -greg

    • Bret (B.S.)

      Hello Greg…

      Thanks for joining in on the discussion and topic..

      We both know what confusion the word “Spirit”, and “Soul” has caused so many in the Bible reading world and much has to do with context and how it is understood…

      Consider again Lu 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and “supposed that they had seen a spirit”.

      The language here indicates they were not seeing a spirit… “They Suposed they were”
      Byington
      Lu 24:37 And they, terror-struck and unnerved, “thought” they were seeing a spirit;

      Or they Thought they were seeing a spirit…
      Either way the text indicates they were not looking upon a spirit..
      And Jesus reconfirms this in his own statement…

      Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

      Certainly Jesus is not causing confusion here as well.. I believe he is indicating that he was in fact an “immortal man”, son of man ect…I believ the text i quoted in my earlier material indicate that Paul still viewed Christ as a man, immortal man…

      1 Cor 15 indicates that these boddies are something different and new certainly not the same creation as the Angels…

      But they are spirit driven and spirit here means life force… that chapter says they are spiritual bodies and are heavenly in other words from God… 1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body…

      I believe that reference to Jesus becoming a life giving spirit is saying he has an invisible spirit body… But that he is a life force that gives life…

      • Bret (B.S.)

        Correction..
        Not saying he has an invisible body..

        • greg (Bible Student)

          Hi Bret.

          I believe I hear what you are saying, and I perceive that you and I seem to be in agreement on many of the core fundamentals. I very much applaud your willingness to entertain questions rather than just accept what could turn out to be simply tradition and demonic deceptions.

          I have given much more than just a few minutes of consideration to your expressions and questions, even though my words here may not reflect it. Even as I grapple with myself over whether or not to submit another very lengthy response I’ve been working on, I wonder if I am perhaps “preaching to the choir” or perhaps arguing about bananas when you were hoping to talk about apples.

          I’ve wrestled with your comments because **I** keep getting lost in **MY OWN** mental pictures, and then I lose track of YOUR picture. So to be sure, This is what I’m understanding your question to be:

          Is the belief that The Annointed Class will actually be resurrected to Life IN Heaven a scriptural teaching, or another Demonic untruth that’s just become a traditional belief?

          What you are NOT debating is that a Heaven exists, nor that Spirit Beings inhabit said Heaven.

          Have I got a clear picture of the core of your concern?

          -greg

          • Bret (B.S.)

            Hello Greg and Greetings.

            Fist let me make this clear I believe Psamls 115:6 The heavens are the heavens of Jehovah;
            But the earth hath he given to the children of men.

            Yes I believe Jehovah’s lives in the Heavens as well as all his Angelic creatures, and this I have never questioned or it’s existence…..

            What I have proposed is that the 144,000 the bride class as well as the great crowd will receive a resurrection to life as “Immortal Men”, on earth not in Heaven. They will receive as mentioned at 1 Cor 15:38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption… 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
            I believe they will inherit the “age to come”, the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of the Heavens, the “World to come”

            Consider Luke 20:34 And Jesus said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage: 35but they that are accounted worthy to attain to that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 for neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

            Is Jesus here speaking about Heaven when he says “attain to that age, and the resurrection from the dead”. That “age to come” is not heaven but the earthly Kingdom of God… Where Christ’s followers can no longer die but are immortal…

            Certainly these are the same ones who inherit “the inhabited earth to come” (Heb. 2:5) or the “the coming world” (Rom. 4:13).

            To take Jesus words about the “world to come” or “age to come” and make that heaven is simply not accurate….

            Was Jesus speaking about them just ruling invisible from heaven, as receiving or inheriting such a thing? I would say give me a firm confirmation of this.

            Consider that the word heaven can imply many symbolic things such as a new heavens is intact a rulership or government. It can also mean that it is from God for example; John 3:27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.

            So Heaven here simply means God…. There are so many scriptures that make reference to Heaven that are not stated that we live in heaven but simply refer to it in a figurative sense..

            I will post some examples as we consider further..

            • Bret (B.S.)

              Greg.

              Here are some scriptures I think are often misunderstood

              Philippians 3:14
              I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the “high call of God” by means of Christ Jesus.

              Heb 3:1
              Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the “heavenly calling”, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.

              Much confusion over the “calling” is it to a place to live in heaven or is it to a plan and purpose?

              “upward call of God” -Phil 3:14
              “heavenly call” -Heb 3:1
              “a holy calling” -2Ti 1:9
              “the calling and choosing” -2Pe 1:10
              “God who is calling” -1Thes 2:12

              Notice these are a calling, all the same calling but different descriptive terms (High, Heavenly, Holly, Of God)

              How about these scriptures, a reward to go live in Heaven?

              Colossians 1:5 because of the hope that is being reserved for YOU in the heavens. This [hope] YOU heard of before by the telling of the truth of that good news

              1Pet 1:4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time

              Reward is reserved in the Heavens not a place to live. Jesus said when he returned he would give to each their reward.

              Example John 3:27 “In answer John said: “A man cannot receive a single thing unless it has been given him from heaven.”

              Rev 22:12 Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is

              John 14:2,3
              2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be

              I believe here Jesus was saying he would go away to prepare the Kingdom which would come (Mat. 6:9,10) when he returned and after returning he would gather his follower to Jerusalem or New Jerusalem where he would sit down upon the throne of David and begin to administer earths affairs from there (Isa 2, Dan 2:35,44, Dan 7:27)

              Lu. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob 17for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

              What about 1Th 4:17? Nowhere does it say those caught into the air would be taken back to heaven but I believe they will be gathered to christ at his return and will then escort him the King and Messiah to his throne where they would govern the world or age to come from the new world capital….

              1Th 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

              In fact there simply is not a single scripture that says anyone will live in heaven or is returning to heaven with christ, in fact not even 1 of Jesus parables has anyone returning with him to where he came from…

              • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                Brett I can understand your thinking this through but I don’t think you can say that Jesus and his bride will be confined to living and ruling physically on the earth. If you say there is not scripture that says definitely that they will go to heaven then the converse is also true. There is no scripture I am aware of that says Jesus will live and rule from earth and earthly ones of the bride class and great crowd will not go to heaven.
                We look at all scriptures to draw conclusions.
                And the beauty of it all is we can think and disagree and keep talking it through.
                Hopefully more persons will comment.

                PS: Some are taking time to read each comment thoroughly and will comment later. Take Care.

                • Bret (B.S)

                  Jacqueline,

                  I do not think it could be much clearer than the fact it states at Rev 5:10, they shall rule on earth. Also I pointed out Revelation 20 where the rebellious people encircle the saints and camp of the saints and “Fire comes down out of heaven” and devours them..

                  Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

                  Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

                  • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                    Brett, I just noticed your Revelation references. It is a book of symbols and much is not clearly understood because most is future. For instance do we know exactly who gog and magog are in the future after millennium. Where exactly the holy city is after 1000 years. Fire out of heaven, is this atomic fire? Or what is it symbolic of. You are stating as factual, symbolic, unrevealed yet things in Revelation. To do so means you have to identify accurately all the symbolic items in the text. Most Bible readers can’t do that accurately because the little season dynamics are not fully revealed now.
                    But if this is your belief I am not trying to change it just discussing and pointing to problems I see 28th this point of no heavenly residing. I don’t think Jesus reward would be to live on earth when he asked his father to put him back in position he had before he came to earth. Take Care

                    • Bret (B.S)

                      Jacqueline,

                      So you are stating that Revelation 5:10 is possibly symbolic? Because the scripture clearly states that the saints with “Reign on earth”…

                      Matt 5:5 says the “Meek shall inherit the earth”, certainly the meek is in regards to those who would inherit the Kingdom of God, or Heavens… Certainly the promises in the New Testement is speaking to Christ body!

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      No, I have always believed we would be able to see our loved ones that go to heaven because of Rev. 20:5. I know pduring the thousand years Jesus and the bride will work for restitution of the earth and its people. It was just some of it could stand for something else as the entire book is given in signs and symbols for that period of time and slightly beyond.
                      I can’t see where it proves they can’t be spirits and also go back to live in the spirit world or dimension before and after Revelation is fulfilled.
                      I don’t think Jesus will be confined to this earth with his bride or that they won’t be able to go back and forth like in the Beginning.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Bret (B.S),

                      I am a little late coming to this conversation. Thanks for feeling comfortable to share your point of view. I have carefully read your comments and I can see where you are coming from. You are logical and make sense, even if I disagree with some of your conclusions. It would be too much for me to respond tit for tat to every comment you made. However, I can come back to any specific point you would like me to address.

                      Let me state where I disagree.
                      1) I do believe Jesus is now a divine spirit being.
                      2) I believe the resurrected Bride of Christ (144,000) are divine spirit beings like Jesus.
                      3) The Great Crowd are spirit beings in heaven.

                      That spirit beings can be on earth or rule on earth is not a problem since we know that with God’s permission they can materialize and be visible to men, as we see so many examples with the resurrected Jesus and the angles who appeared to Abraham, Lot and others.

                      Since the New Jerusalem from Heaven is the Bride of Christ, then the Bride of Christ comes to earth from heaven.
                      Rev 20:2, 10 (NKJV) “2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband… 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”

                      Consider also that the prophecy of Joel shows that when mankind is filled with the Holy Spirit, that communication from the Heavenly Kingdom (New Jerusalem) will happen through dreams, visions and prophecies.

                      Joel 2:27-28 (NKJV) “27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame. 28 “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.”

                      I think the article “Does Jesus Have a Body of Flesh” answers points 1 & 2 well.

                      JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

                      1 Pet 3:18 (Rotherham) being put to death in deed in flesh, But made alive in spirit

                      2 Cor 3:17 (NKJV) Now the Lord is the Spirit; (NKJ) “Lord” is Jesus. Compare 2 Cor 1:3 – “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” KJV)

                      1 Cor 15:42-45 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.

                      Col 1:15 (NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [compare “image” with 1 Cor 15:49]

                      1 Cor 15:47-49 (KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Jesus] is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

                      CHRISTIANS GET A SPIRIT BODY IN THE RESURRECTION

                      John 3:6-8, 13 (NKJV) “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit… No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

                      1 Cor 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial [heavenly] bodies, and bodies terrestrial [earthly]: but the glory of the celestial [heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [earthly] is another.

                      1 Cor 15:44 (NKJV) It is sown [we are born in] a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

                      I Jn 3:2 (NKJV) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. [If Jesus has a body of flesh, then so will we since we are to be like him]

              • greg (Bible Student)

                Bret,

                I’ve been toying with your expressions but I cannot fit them into my mental picture. I could offer a very lengthy and verbose attempt to explain my view, however I wonder if it might be better if I simply try to convey ONE (of many) of my difficulties in integrating your suggestions.

                I think of the Old Covenant versus the New Covenant. If the annointed, spirit begotten bride of Christ was meant to “live” visibly (or invisibly) and conspicuously here on earth, with and alongside Christ, I fail to see why the Old Abrahamic Covenant would have needed to be replaced with a New Covenant. It seems to me that everything you suggest could have been just as easily accomplished within the framework of the original OLD covenant.

                It’s also my understanding that the Apostles went to great lengths to try and emphasize the vast DIFFERENCES between the Old Covenant and the New -and Better- Covenant, including the necessity of the New Covenant.

                Moreover, if the New Creation is going to live and move and work HERE, then would not the Ancient Worthies -Abraham, Moses, Noah, Enoch, etc.- be largely redundant, and virtually reduced to irrelevance? I mean, I wonder what would be the point of having Earthly Representatives if Christ and His Bride were going to be here in “person” anyway?

                Even though I do not agree with, nor arrive at the same conclusions as you, I do wholeheartedly applaud your efforts in taking a look with fresh eyes at things we might not otherwise question. I’m confident that God and Christ will richly reward your curiosity and studious efforts.

                -greg

              • greg (Bible Student)

                Bret,

                I would like to add this quote from R5189:5, not because I believe what it says, but because it puts into words what I have already come to believe as a result of my own personal studies.

                “The New Jerusalem primarily will be the Church in glory, on the spirit plane, the Kingdom or rule of God, emanating from Messiah. But it will have its earthly representatives, too. The very ones to whom St. Paul here refers, found faithful in their time—Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Prophets and all the Ancient Worthies—will be princes in the earth, representatives of the invisible Messiah and His Bride, backed by their full power and authority.—Psalm 45:16.

                “Of these Jesus spoke, saying, “Ye shall see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the holy Prophets in the Kingdom.” But He Himself has said, “Yet a little while and the world seeth Me no more.” Of the Church the Apostle declares, “We shall be like Him.” We all must be changed. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, on the spirit plane.”

                -greg

                • Bret (B.S)

                  Greg,

                  Thanks for your input and thoughts on this subject…

                  I am trying to wrap my head around this point that you made. Firstly let state this, that a brother who runs the Bible Student site RestorationLight has an excellent article about the great crowd and his belief that they are to receive life on earth.. He quotes an article by brother Russell that places the timing of Revelation 19 scene prior to the fall of Babylon the great and thus the great crowd seen there in Heaven doesnt therefore place the Great Crowd of Rev 7 in Heaven…

                  But explain this to me…. The body of Christ, the Church, New Jerusalem is in Heaven that is spirit beings invisible and they transmit direction through another group of invisible spirit beings in Heaven (Great Crowd) who transmit direction through the Faithful worthies of old, who do not posses immortality and incorruption and they receive this information from invisible spirit who received it from other invisible spirits????

                  That sounds like a whole lot of confusion to me, just saying!!!

                  Another thing that i Question is that there is a great crowd who cannot be numbered that gain immortality and yet these faithful men of Old are not a part of the first resurrection? Abraham the father of faith, Daniel and so many other faithful ones of old remain mortal men while a Great crowd gains immortality…

                  What makes sense to you Greg without being disrespectful makes absolutely no sense at all to me…

                  Flesh and blood cannot inhereit the Kingdom of God yet Abraham Isaac and Jacob fleshly mortal men do????

                  Someone please explain Matt 8:11 without sounding like a JW and preforming mental gymnastics…

                  Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven

                  I will try and find that quote of Russell and Rev 19 “Great Crowd”

                  • greg (Bible Student)

                    Bret,

                    Hmmm… Something you’ve expressed a couple times keeps prompting a picture to come into mind. I’ll share it for whatever it’s worth.

                    While I don’t presume that it will sort out your confusion for you, one thing I found that tripped me up for a while was the word inherit. To me there’s a critical difference between inheriting and receiving benefits.

                    To illustrate: If a relative of mine dies and leaves me an inheritance, my wife might benefit. But she doesn’t inherit. I may also have other siblings and cousins that inherit. I might even have a step-brother, or an adopted child that receives an inheritance. But my wife only receives the blessings from my inheritance.

                    Perhaps there’s a mansion that’s left to me. I come to possess, or OWN it. But that stands separate from who actually inhabits said mansion. So, overseeing the care of the mansion, deciding what is done to maintain it, and deciding who lives in it, and deciding who I want to administrate the affairs of the house are my prerogative because I have inherited it.

                    To me, Christ’s “Brothers” inherit the Kingdom. That is to say, they become HEIRS WITH CHRIST. Collectively they come to POSSESS the Kingdom. But MANY will BENEFIT from said Kingdom by living within the Kingdom, yet they do not actually come to inherit it.

                    -greg

                    • Bret (B.S)

                      ZionsHerald,

                      You made a interesting statement in one of your posts, “but I believe that the “stars of heaven” promise is a separate and distinct one. You indicated this is inreference to Heavenly life for some of Abraham’s “Seed”, but I couldn’t help but notice that there were scriptures tying this Idea to that verse..
                      Help me to see your point by allowing scripture to interpret scripture..
                      Certainly there are “Words” within those scriptures that tie into verses that explain what is meant by “stars of Heaven”?

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Hi Brett,

                      I haven’t a lot of time, but I do have some short notes on some interesting things related to the promises to Abraham that I will expand upon below. Hopefully I can simplify these ideas enough without making the relations too complex.

                      Before beginning I will explain the main idea in a short summary. The idea is that there are two basic promises that were given to Abraham, one like the sand/dust of the earth, and one like the stars of heaven. The sand dust of the earth is just that, and earthly promise. The stars of heaven are a heavenly promise. This is the two salvations, two resurrections, in a nutshell. There is a spiritual / heavenly reward for the bride of Christ, and everyone else has an earthly promise. The promises are different and this can be seen in their explanations and details which I will quote below.

                      When comparing the multiple promises to Abraham, and the specifics mentioned, with with the other places in Scripture where those promises are fulfilled, you’ll find that interesting patterns begin to appear. I tried to pull together as many of the references to the Abrahamic promise I could find throughout Scripture (in the short time I had to put this together).

                      In Genesis 12:1-7 Abraham is promised by God, “I will make you a great nation….To your descendants I will give this land….in you all families of the earth shall be blessed.”

                      All that is promised here is land to Abraham’s actual descendants. I believe this would include both the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael.

                      In Genesis 13:14-17 this promise is expanded on where the seed is described as the “dust of the earth” and the dust is related to “all the land you see, I will give it to you and your descendants forever I will give it to you.” Here the LAND promise is linked with the symbol of DUST. Similar promises are found in Genesis 17:8, 24:7, and Genesis 18:8 where the promise is called an “everlasting possession”, “nations and kings” will come from Abraham, and Genesis 18:18 says “all nations of the earth will be blessed.” Here the promises are expanded from Israel to the nations. Both Israel and the nations are promised “land.”

                      To start diagraming it out I would list it as follows —

                      DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.”

                      In Genesis 15:5-21 and Genesis 22:17-18 a change appears, now the seed is “multiplied” beyond the dust of the earth. Here it mentions that the Lord will “greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and the sand of the seashore.” It says that this seed “shall possess the gate of their enemies” and “in your seed all the nations will be blessed.” NOTE CAREFULLY — There is nothing about the land mentioned here. This is the entire world, all nations.

                      Two more phrases are used here, and two more symbols.

                      In Exodus 6:2-8 the land promise to Abraham is specifically tied in with Israel’s possession of the land. “… I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned … I will bring you to the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I will give it to you for a possession.” See also Genesis 28:4; 35:12; 46:3; 48:4; Exodus 12:25, 13:5; 23:31; 33:1; Deuteronomy 10:22; 30:5; Joshua 21:43.

                      Continuing to chart this out we end up with….

                      DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Israel / Ishmael)
                      SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.”
                      STARS –

                      The Seed “shall possess the of their enemies”
                      In that Seed “all the nations will be blessed.”

                      I listed these separately as so far we do not have enough information to continue to map/compare/contrast these symbols until we go through more of the promises and their explanations.

                      In Genesis 26:3-4 these symbols are expanded upon further. Of the stars it says, “I will multiply Isaac’s descendants as stars” and it repeats the land promise in relation to the nations. Note that Ishmael is not related to the stars portion of the blessing — only Isaac. Continuing to map this out I would see it as —

                      DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Israel / Ishmael)
                      SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.”
                      STARS – (Abraham / Isaac’s descendants as stars)

                      So far this is coming together but Isaac’s descendants are also described as “dust.”

                      “And behold, the Lord stood [a]above it and said, ‘I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'” (Genesis 28:13-14)

                      Note here that the promise is split into two separate promises, “your descendants will ALSO be like…” There are TWO promises here. One is a DUST promise, and the other is a STAR promise. Exodus 32:13 makes this same distinction between two different promises. After adding that to our chart …

                      DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Isaac / Ishmael / Jacob / Esau / Israel)
                      SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.”
                      STARS – HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL (Abraham / Isaac’s descendants as stars)

                      The author of Hebrews reiterates this. “Even Sarah received ability to conceive…since she considered Him faithful who had promised; therefore, also, there was born of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore…”
                      (Hebrews 11:11-16)

                      Now lets go a little further with this and see if it all continues to fit together. We know that there were three women in Abraham’s life. Lets look at how these women are mentioned in the book of Galatians. Sarah, Keturah, and Hagar.

                      “Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, ‘Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.’ And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say? ‘Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.’ So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.” (Galatians 4:21-31)

                      According to Galatians, we the potential bride members of Christ are children of the freewoman, Sarah who is from the spiritual seed, the heavenly Jerusalem, and free from the law. Those of the present Jerusalem or Israel are children of the bondwoman, fleshly, and a slave to the law. According to the Abrahamic promise, both are to receive an heirship, and according to Galatians, the promise appears to be different. The promise to the bondwoman is not the same as that of the free woman. “The son of the bond woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

                      These also map to our comparison chart we’ve been building.

                      HAGAR – Bond Woman – Fleshly – DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Abraham / Isaac / Ishmael / Jacob / Esau / Israel)
                      – SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.” (Abraham)
                      SARAH – Free Woman – Spiritual – STARS – HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL (Abraham / Isaac’s descendants as stars)

                      The only one not mentioned in Galatians is Keturah, but it also appears to map in nicely.

                      HAGAR – Bond Woman – Fleshly – DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Abraham / Isaac / Ishmael / Jacob / Esau / Israel)
                      KETURAH – Concubine – Fleshly – SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.” (Abraham) (Six Sons – 1 less than 7. Sons of Concubine before she was wife).
                      SARAH – Free Woman – Spiritual – STARS – HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL (Abraham / Isaac’s descendants as stars)

                      If there was any question about whether or not those who were under the law and those who were not under the law, would receive this promise of Abraham, Paul in Romans explains —

                      “For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, ‘A father of many nations have I made you’)” (Romans 4:16-17)

                      Yes, those under the law will receive that promise. But those not under the law will as well. This is the point Paul is making in Galatians.

                      “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

                      “And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.” (Galatians 4:28).

                      Jesus is the way we (including those under the law also) that we receive these promises. See also Hebrews 6:11-13;19-20 and Acts 13:32-33,38.

                      Now…going one step further ….

                      HAGAR – Bond Woman – Fleshly – DUST – LAND – Abraham’s Seed will be as “dust of the earth.” (Abraham / Isaac / Ishmael / Jacob / Esau / Israel).

                      We know that Israel is promised the land and it will be theirs forever. It is a modern day miracle they are back in their land, but they are in that land in unbelief. This too was prophesied. We know that at some point in the future all nations will come against them to battle and they will be miraculously saved and after the spirit is poured out on them they will recognize Messiah (Zechariah 12) and mourn for him. The land promise of Abraham will be eternal for them at this point in time.

                      KETURAH – Concubine – Fleshly – SAND – LAND – “All nations will be blessed.” (Abraham) (Six Sons – 1 less than 7. Sons of Concubine before she was wife).

                      We also know that all the nations that will go against Israel to battle in that day will be taken care of. They will be defeated, but if they will go up year to year to worship the Lord, they will get blessings. If not, they will receive curses. They too will have a land promise.

                      “And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.” (Zechariah 14:9)

                      “And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.” (Zechariah 14:17)

                      I believe this is why the symbol of sand is used in Revelation 20:8 where the defectors are numbered as the “sand of the seashore.” They are numbered as those who received a land promise of Abraham. Their deception will nullify that promise as they will be removed from the land and destroyed in that day.

                      SARAH – Free Woman – Spiritual – STARS – HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL (Abraham / Isaac’s descendants as stars).

                      According to Galatians, this is the Church class. Just as I mentioned yesterday, the Levitical priesthood in the nation of Israel did not receive a land promise. They were to be priests over the nation of Israel, but they did not have an inheritance in the land (Deuteronomy 10:9), they have a spiritual / heavenly promise and this is born out from the Abrahamic promise forward through all Scripture.

                      I probably made this all too complex, but it was a good study for me to recognize the different portions of the promise and who and what they referred to throughout Scripture.

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald

                      Thanks for your response.. I believe I have read much of this material from articles here on this site as well as other Bible Student web sites…
                      First I would like to say I am a believer in “Types” and “Anti-types”, especially when It is an Apostle (i.e. Paul Gal.2:21-31) who determines the type and anti-type…
                      But I feel we have no right to go into the scriptures a determine a type and anti-type, that neither Jesus or the apostles who had authority to determine such even mentioned or spoke of….

                      Certainly interpretation or understanding of scriptures are very important but determining a type and anti-type which seems to have become a habit has long plagued many who have attempted such..

                      It seems to me that the context of a scripture giving a description of a promise has been turned into a “Type”, and “Anti-Type”I notice you posted only one quote from the New Testament book of Hebrews that mentions the “Stars of Heaven and Sand of Seashores” and have given it an interpretation that again neither the Apostles or Jesus gave….

                      I mentioned the “Promise” given to Abraham and you said “I’m a Stickler for context”, your “Out of Context” the context is about faith and not the promise, but you use several scriptures then as Types and Antitypes that are different than the context of what is being discussed…

                      I am an EX-JW and there is a real danger of creating our own types and anti-types….

                      I shared several scriptural points about the promise to Abraham and his seed in connection to the “World to come”, “Age to Come”, “Kingdom of God”, or “Heavenly kingdom/kingdom of the Heavens”

                      Seems as though you have divided the seed into more than one seed and the promise into more than one promise, when Paul said there is “One Seed” Gal. 3:16….

                      I will try and further expound on my point about the “Promise” and the “Seed” in case of “One” as time permits me perhaps this evening…

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald,

                      Jehovah’s promise to multiply Abraham’s seed to be like the “Sand of the sea”, “stars of heaven”, or “dust of the land” are descriptive terms within the context not separate promises…

                      Not sure how these descriptive terms have turned into such a doctrine without Jesus or the apostles and bible writers of the Greek scriptures making a single type and anti-type reference about such…

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Brett,

                      I completely agree about types and antitypes. This is why I tried to sort things out as the texts describe them and not go much further than the texts state. The only exception I listed was Keturah as the type isn’t mentioned in Galatians at all.

                      But Galatians does make a difference between the children of the bondwoman and the children of the free woman.

                      “The son of the bond woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” (Galatians 4:29-30)

                      The children of the bondwoman are also the seed of Abraham, but they will not receive the promise of being the bride of Christ. Yes, they will receive the land promise given to them, but not the bride of Christ. I believe strongly that this is why this promise is listed throughout scripture distinctly in regards to sand/dust/land and stars/spiritual/heavenly promises.

                      There are so many Scriptures showing that there is a distinction between what blessings the current unbelieving world will receive in the kingdom, and what the Church will inherit at that time.

                      I am curious as to if you see the difference in reward between these two groups in Scripture?

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald,

                      Yes I absolutely see and know the difference… The whole purpose of the “Seed” is to bring relief to the creation/mankind who is under or subjected to sin and corruption (Romans 8:19-25)

                      I view the purpose of Christ bride and joint heirs as sympathizers along with Christ who will work along with him as King priests to redeem mankind from this state in the future during the millennial reign (John 12:47,48 and Rev 5:10)

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Perhaps then I can clarify more?

                      We know that the seed of Christ that will bless the nations of the earth stems from the Abrahamic promise.

                      We also know that promises for the nation of Israel who are now under the law as well as the rest of the world who will be blessed by the seed of Christ also stem from the Abrahamic promise.

                      Both are not the seed of Christ which will bless the world, but both are under the Abrahamic promise and counted as a “seed.” As the texts describe, one is a seed under the law, one is a seed of the nations that will be blessed, and one is a seed that will participate in the blessing.

                      The promises to each are different, just as the promises are described differently.

                  • ZionsHerald

                    Good morning everyone,

                    I don’t comment here often, but as I’ve been enjoying the discussion on this topic I thought I might throw some comments on the table.

                    I would first start with definitions. When I speak of an immortal man, I mean an immortal spirit body. I mean something that is different than now, and something that does not yet exist. In 1 Corinthians 15 we know the bodies of the Church are called Celestial bodies. The other bodies are called “terrestrial.” Terrestrial means “of the earth.” Celestial of course means, “of the heavens.” 1 Corinthians 15:38-44 defines the bodies as “spiritual,” “Celestial,” “Immortal,” and “Incorruptible.” Whatever bodies the Church will be given, we know they will not be “of the earth.” What will they be like? We really don’t know other than the few clues that are scattered throughout Scripture. In 1John 3:2 it says that, “what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” What I know is that I should use and choose to use Scriptural terms to define what reward the Church will be given. When I use the term “Spiritual” to define the bodies

                    What is Jesus like now?

                    In Luke 24:39 Jesus told Thomas, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” but in John 20:11-17, “Jesus said …. ‘I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'” This appears odd from the beginning. He tells Thomas to touch him in Luke, yet in John he tells Mary not to touch him. Why? In Matthew 28:9 Jesus lets the disciples touch him. Why did he tell Mary this? Each of these instances are before his ascension. I think that in John, Jesus is saying, “don’t take the time to worship me now, go tell the others, don’t hold this for yourself and go and tell the others.” These verses have very little to do with what Jesus actual current body is like.

                    Hebrews 1:3,4 tells us that Jesus was made so much better than the angels. This of course is the point of Hebrews. Jesus is better than the angels. He’s better than men. He’s better than the priests… Hebrews also tells us that Jesus went to his Father in Heaven. From His ascension onward Jesus location was a heavenly one.

                    1 Timothy 6:16 also tells us specifically that Jesus is immortal, that whatever Jesus is, we know that of all the Kings of the earth and all the Lords of the earth, “He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will.” We know that whatever his nature is, it is something that cannot be seen by the human eye. Whatever it is, it isn’t human.

                    I saw that you quoted Luke 20:34-35 earlier. I have a different thought that many of the Brethren on this verse who believe it speaks of the resurrection of the masses of mankind. I prefer the thought which was the one which Br. Russell used in the Sixth Volume and other Reprints —

                    Here are the notes which support this perspective from the “Expanded Biblical Comments” –“No doubt, referring to the spiritual resurrection.” (R1510:1) “The resurrection to spiritual conditions is in Scripture designated as special, the first resurrection. It is also frequently designated, as here, by the article the (very noticeable in the Greek text, but less so in our English translations).” (R277:3, 205:6, 194:6) “Leaving the question of human conditions during the period of “resurrection by judgment” for amplification under other Scriptures.” (R4411:3) In this statement our Lord omits any reference to the masses of the world and their opportunities for restitution to human perfection through a judgment-resurrection, a resurrection depending upon their cooperation. R1510:1 As we examine the context it is evident that not the resurrected condition of the Church is discussed, but the resurrected condition of the world. R915:3

                    If this is correct, then the though here basically is that whatever the reward of believers are, are something like the angels in the fact that they are spiritual and will not die.

                    As for the context of Revelation 19, The marriage of the bride takes place in heaven, not the “ecclesiastical heavens.” I highly doubt the bride of Christ will have any power in the “ecclesiastical heavens” at the time of the fall of Babylon. In this chapter, it appears that a great company is invited to the marriage of the bride just prior to the final destruction and fall of Babylon. Whoever this great company is, they are not the bride. The only other great company mentioned with the exact same Greek words in Revelation is a group that is described in Revelation 7 as different than those who have white robes. How different? This group has to wash their robes. The first group of 144,000 did not. To me this is evidence of a different reward. The one spotless group will be the bride, whereas the group with spoiled robes will still be invited to the marriage of the bride in heaven, but will not be a part of the bride itself.

                    What will the role of the Church on earth be?

                    We know we will judge men and angels (1 Corinthians 6:1-3). We will be Kings and Priests and serve God (Revelation 1:6). But how we will be kings and priests to mankind? A King rules, but a priest’s job is to restore the people to God. Think for a moment of the example we have in Ezekiel’s temple.

                    “But the Levitical priests, who are descendants of Zadok and who guarded my sanctuary when the Israelites went astray from me, are to come near to minister before me; they are to stand before me to offer sacrifices of fat and blood, declares the Sovereign Lord. They alone are to enter my sanctuary; they alone are to come near my table to minister before me and serve me as guards. When they enter the gates of the inner court, they are to wear linen clothes; they must not wear any woolen garment while ministering at the gates of the inner court or inside the temple. They are to wear linen turbans on their heads and linen undergarments around their waists. They must not wear anything that makes them perspire. When they go out into the outer court where the people are, they are to take off the clothes they have been ministering in and are to leave them in the sacred rooms, and put on other clothes, so that the people are not consecrated through contact with their garments.” (Ezekiel 44:15-19)

                    Note that in this picture, the priests remove their garments of glory, and replace them with priestly garments before they see the people. Perhaps this is a picture of how the Church could possibly reveal themselves to men here on earth because we know that the human eye is unable to see the glory of the nature we are promised.

                    WHERE is Jesus now?

                    Jesus sits “at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Hebrews 1:3, NIV).

                    Acts 3:21 states that “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things” therefore Jesus is retained in Heaven until the time he comes to bring restitution of all things.”

                    (The Acts passage is referencing what the prophets of old had explained of the promises of God for Israel and the nations. They would live on a restored earth. No heavenly promise. The OT promises did not promise a heavenly reward. This was not promised until Christ opened a new and living way).

                    Perhaps we should ask, What happens when the restitution is over?

                    We also know that from Scripture that Jesus comes FOR his saints. This is what John 14:2,3 tells us.

                    “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.” (John 14:2,3)

                    This is to take them to heaven for the wedding. Later he returns WITH the saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13, Jude 1:14-15)) to destroy Babylon and to judge the world for 1000 years.

                    Revelation 5:10 says that we shall reign on the earth. We know how long we will reign. We know from Revelation 20:4 that we will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. Revelation 5:10 does not state what the eternal home of the Bride will be after that period is over.

                    The main point of Galatians 3:29 is not Abraham’s inheritance of the land. Paul isn’t talking about the land. He’s specifically pointing out that we have the opportunity to be justified by faith like Abraham was, and that we are not under the law that only brought death.

                    There are a lot of Scriptures on this topic, and a lot of opinions, but at least we can be respectful of each others opinions and allow for them here on this friendly forum.

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald;

                      Interesting statements, let me respond to just a couple things…

                      “The main point of Galatians 3:29 is not Abraham’s inheritance of the land. Paul isn’t talking about the land. He’s specifically pointing out that we have the opportunity to be justified by faith like Abraham was, and that we are not under the law that only brought death.”

                      Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith

                      Paul here is making obvious reference to the Land/Earth or World to come… It was faith that justified receiving the promise for both Abraham and his seed that is “US” “heirs with reference to a promise”

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald

                      Paul’s clear teaching is that the destiny of true Christians is closely related to the destiny of Abraham.
                      Along with his fellow Jews, Paul, a leading, knew well that God had promised Abraham that he would eventually come into possession of the land of Palestine and consequently of the whole world. The certainty of the coming inheritance of the world formed the basis of Israel’s national hope of participation in the covenant promise God had made with “father Abraham.”
                      According to Paul, however, only Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles alike, become potential participants in the very same inheritance of the world promised to Abraham (Rom. 4:13). Paul says this so plainly that only the force of a contrary tradition can account for the unfamiliarity of this basic teaching.
                      In Galatians 3:29 Paul makes one of his determining statements for the whole Christian faith: “If you are Christ’s (A True Christian), then you count as Abraham’s offspring and are heirs according to the promise [made to Abraham].”
                      In Romans 4:13 Paul’s illuminating definition of the promise reveals what the future had in store for Abraham and his spiritual offspring: “The promise made to Abraham and his offspring that he should be heir of the world…”
                      Combining this information with Galatians 3:29, the truth becomes apparent that the promise to Abraham and to all true Christians is that they should be heirs of the world.
                      Once grasped, this basic truth of the Bible throws light on numerous parallel passages referring to the destiny of believers: They are “joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:17), “God’s heirs” (Rom. 8:17), “heirs, because we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:17).
                      Heirs of what? Supplying the thought found at Romans 4:13, we see that Christians are “God’s heirs to the world,” “joint-heirs to the world with Christ,” “heirs to the world, because we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:17). Paul made the same point when he wrote to the Galatians: “For if the inheritance (of the world) is based on law it is no longer based on a promise, but God granted it (the inheritance of the world) by means of a promise…And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs (of the world) according to the promise” (Gal. 3:18, 29),

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Hi Bret,

                      Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. When you get to know me, you’ll find I’m a stickler for context. You know… Why is the writer saying what he is saying? Who is he saying it to? What is he saying, etc…

                      Paul’s point for writing Galatians is scattered throughout the book. At the end of chapter three he tells them that the law was a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ. The entire point of Galatians is that Faith justifies, not following the law. This was Martin Luther’s rallying point at the start of the Reformation. Yes, Abraham had a land promise, but the point of Galatians was justification through faith.

                      The point of Romans is similar. We’re actually studying this book verse by verse in our Sunday meeting at the moment. Paul is writing to the Romans to basically say that no one is better than the other, believer, non-believer, Jew, gentile, those who follow the law, those who don’t, etc.. we are all guilty of death because of sin.

                      When he gets to Romans 4, Paul’s main point again is faith. The gift Abraham received was faith (Romans 4:3-4). What did Abraham get? He didn’t get land, he received justification through faith. He will get land, but Paul’s point in the 4th chapter here is that Abraham’s faith was credited to him for righteousness.

                      None of this negates that Abraham had promises for the land that he never got. It just points out the focus of why Paul is using Abraham for his arguments about justification. When I read and study through the context of these passages, I try to keep the big picture of what the author is saying, so that I don’t get lost in the details and derailed into something that may not have been the intention of the author.

                    • greg (Bible Student)

                      Greetings ZionsHerald.

                      I am very appreciative that you “broke silence” and expressed these comments. Thank you sincerely.

                      Some of the points you made I had been wrestling with as I tried to find clear and simple words to express them. I’m glad you found clear and simple words for me. Thank you.

                      -greg

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald,

                      Jesus constantly promised his followers that in the future they would inherit the Kingdom of God. It is a very simple matter to deduce from this that “inheriting the world” (Rom. 4:13) and “inheriting the Kingdom of God” mean exactly the same thing. True Christians, therefore, are heirs to the world and heirs to the Kingdom of God.

                      Simply put “The Kingdom of God”, “Kingdom of the Heavens”, “Heavenly Kingdom” are the same thing as “The Age to Come”, or “The World to come”

                                  James 2:5: “God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom which He promised to those who love Him.”
                                  Matthew 21:38, 43: “God sent his Son…This is the heir, let us kill him and seize his inheritance…Therefore the Kingdom will be taken away from you [hostile Jews] and given to a nation producing the fruit of it.”
                                 Psalm 2:8 invites God’s Messiah to “Ask of me and I will surely give the nations as your inheritance and the very ends of the earth as your possession.” This is simply the ultimate form of the promise to Abraham of the possession of the world (Rom. 4:13).

                      Therefore the statement at Gal 3:29 is tied into more that just Abrahams faith!!

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      ZionsHerald,

                      I appreciate and understand context as well.. I understand that is due to Abrahams faith that he received the “Promise”, but not that the promise is that his offspring would inherit faith… It is faith that put us “Heirs” in line to receieve the Promise…

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Thank you Bret for your comments. As I said, when I simply go by the context of Romans and Galatians, the main point of each is “the law is done”, “Faith justifies us (the law doesn’t), and “we are all guilty.”

                      When I read these passages, I compartmentalize each according to context and who they are talking to and what they are talking about. The Abrahamic promise makes a heavenly and earthly distinction in how it is described and also how it is used.

                      I do not deny an inheritance of the land for some under the Abrahamic promise (i.e. the sand of the seashore), but I believe that the “stars of heaven” promise is a separate and distinct one. Yes, there is an inheritance of the land, but just as in the Old Testament, the priesthood will not inherit the land. They didn’t have a land inheritance in the law of the old testament. Deuteronomy 10:9 states, “Therefore Levi has no portion or inheritance with his brothers. The LORD is his inheritance, as the LORD your God said to him.).” The priests were the only ones that did not get land. Thats why Israel had a tithe so that the hard working and poor priests would have something to eat. The bride of Christ inherits the priesthood and kingship portion of the Abrahamic promise. Everyone else, the Jews, and Gentiles, believer and unbeliever, will inherit the physical earth, but they won’t inherit the priesthood or kingship. In the end, everyone wins.

                    • Bret (B.S)

                      ZionHerald..

                      I appreciate the point of faith found both in Galations and Romans in fact that is what freed me from enslavement to an Organization the JW machine thats makes you work for salvation..

  • Bret (B.S.)

    Does Jesus have a corporeal body, both tangable and able to be invisible? How about the resurrection of his New Creation us Christians?

    I thought it would be interesting to re-touch this topic and some recent scholarly works that I have read and considered.

    In this article it uses comparisons of Jehovah, angels, fallen angels and Jesus.
    I would like to mention 1st that I believe that Jehovah’s existance is much different than that of any creation and he is in fact invisible and beyond Human compehension.

    I would note that the body possessed by Angels however is different than those of both Christ and his resurrected body members will be.

    The Angels are not immortal and do not posses immortality like the bride class will. We know that some of the fallen Angels will be destroyed according to Revelation 20.

    I believe that 1 Corinthians 15 (Resurrection chapter) is clear on the fact that the body that spirit begotten christians receive is a spirit driven body that is immortal but yet tangible or corporeal.

    Certainly the corruptible, mortal body is put off or discarded and a incorruptible, immortal body replaces it. And it is the same with Jesus, he gave up his mortal fleshly body and was raised with a immortal corporeal body, able to eat, drink, be touched and looked upon.

    I noticed in the article 1Tim 6:16 is given as evidence, but I believe that this is in reference to the fact that Jesus is now in Heaven waiting where no human has access to or the ability to visibly see him and not with referrence to his body being invisible and in support to that idea Acts 3:21 “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things” therefore Jesus is retained in Heaven jntil the time he comes to bring restitution of all things.

    Jesus words at Lu 24:37 “But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit”. Indicate he was not a spirit in the same sense as the angels and in fact I do not believe he was being misleading by saying at Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Therefore scriptures in reference to Christ as a spirit or spiritual is that he has an immortal spirit driven body that is heavenly and spiritual and therefore different from any other existing life form.

    There are some very questionable deffinitions with regards to some of the words used in the Bible and how they are translated. Such as the “Age to come” translated as world or system that leaves some very gnostic ideas to creep into Gods word.

    Some Biblical Scholars such as AT Robinson and NT Wright present the Idea thatChrist bride or spirit begoten New Creation will rule on earth with Christ (Rev 5:10, Matt 5:5)

    In fact no where in the Bible does it state that anyone will go to Heaven, and this is an idea completely foreign to the jews and their teachings on the Messiah.
    Jesus spoke about his followers inheriting the Kingdom of God, The Heavenly Kingdom or the age to come.

    It appears that those who would inherit the “Age to Come” would have immortal Bodies that Jesus likened to the angels in that they would not be bodies to procreate with what he said at Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    “That World” is the age to come…

    This raises the question; if Christ body of members are to be kings and priest and rule on earth (Rev 5:10) why would they be invisible spirit creatures in heaven?

    Wiuld it not make more sense if they were immortal men walking about the earth preforming visible miracles like those preformed by jesus when he walked the earth?
    I am not dogmatic on this idea but when Jesus said that he is returning and will have his body of members join him (John 14:2,3) or be gathered to him so that they will be with him, it does not say that they will return to heaven or be in heaven.

    It appears that is read into the verse with a preconceived belief. Some scholars are. Ow saying the mention of the “Kingdom of Heaven” has caused much confusion and Jesus a jewish messiah with jewish belief and background would have understood this to mean Gods earthly kingdom.
    They suggest that early church fathers influenced by the hellinistic age and gnostic beliefs allowed these ideas to creek into Christianity like a disease and corrupt much of the teachings.

    We know that we are encouraged to store up treasures in Heaven and that we have an inheretance and reward in the heavens, even our names are inscribed there but this does not mean that we will go to heaven to receive those rewards because jesus said that he would return and give to each one his reward Rev 22:12.

    A couple of scriptures that I have found of interest are;

    1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by “man” came also the resurrection of the dead

    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the “man” Christ Jesus

    Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that “man” whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead

    The interesting thing about each one of these scriptures is that they all refer to Jesus as “A MAN”, that is an immortal man of course being that at the time that each of these scriptures refer to events after his resurrection and putting on immortality.

    So I leave this question… Have we allowed gnostic beliefs to creep into our teachings and belief that some will live in Heaven as invisible spirits?

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hi Brett. I enjoy seeing an exercise of your brain. You are thinking and speaking. I normally let others deal with most of the conversations like this but I had one question to see your take on it.
      John 14:2 “2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; , a traveler’s resting place. The Gk word is related to the verb meno , meaning remain or stay, which occurs 40 times in John. if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.”
      The Vg used the Lat term mansio
      Why would there be a need to prepare a place where God lives if they were to have visible bodies and live on the earth as rulers?
      To have them go thru the earth healing etc like Jesus during a time of restitution, of learning and making changes and acceptance are not in my mind compatible. It would seem they want their positions acknowledged with such a display or redoing what Jesus did as a preview. Just thinking it through.

      1Cor. 15:50 “50 Brothers, I tell you this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.”
      51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
      I know you are saying a visible immortal body that is seen but it seems it is not consistent with a change of the human nature to another one as indicated by these scriptures.
      They are said to sit on thrones as Kings and Priest for a period of time.
      Rev. 20: 6 “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.”

      I do admit that there is a probability that they can materialize as angels have done and acquire different bodies as Jesus did while walking on the road and when he showed the holes to Thomas. It was not his body that he died in for it was bloodied and whipped.
      Jesus only lived on this earth because he was ransoming Adam. His home and position was along side his Father and he prayed to get it back. He never held out the notion to rule from this earth as his home with his bride healing in a spectacular way. For he said:
      John 18: 36-37 ” 36 “My kingdom is not of this world,” said Jesus. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I wouldn’t be handed over to the Jews. As it is, My kingdom does not have its origin here.” 37 “You are a king then?” Pilate asked. “You say that I’m a king,” Jesus replied. “I was born for this, and I have come into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.”

      Many of the men wanting power make it complicated to understand what Pilate grasped right away.
      That his kingly power is not of this world, but from where his Father resides.
      Also when he ascended he said that his father is involved. It is a heavenly affair.
      Acts 1:7 “7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

      ““All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations…” (Matthew 28:18) Then, in Ephesians 1:20-23 we are told that when God raised Christ from the dead, He “seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over every thing for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills everything in every way.”

      I just don’t see that this is visible earthly immortal bodies of flesh ruling. The stars of Heaven (Christ and 144,000) and the sands of the sea (The Jewish nation) The ancient worthies and the Jewish nation seems to me to be earthly. Abraham”s promise made to him by God is fulfilled in this way.
      That is how I reason this out.

      • Bret (B.S.)

        Jaqcueline,
        You make some very nice and valid points…
        Here are some things that I believe need to be considered with respects to some of the points you made…
        1) 1 Cor 15:50 “Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom” I believe this is talking about the fact that the kingdom rulership is reserved for immortals The New Creation.. an example is Mt 8:11 “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven”.
        Certainly we do not believe that Abraham Isaac and Jacob received a Heavenly reward. Here Heavenly Kingdom is simply the Kingdom of God on earth…

        2) With regards to John 14:2,3 No where in this text does it say that Jesus simply does a drive by to pick up his body of followers and return to Heaven… It states that he will return and gather them to himself so that they will be with him where he is… All of the prophets said he would be upon Mnt Zion where the throne of david is…
        Notice Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must “RECEIVE UNTIL” the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
        Must receive until times of restitution…. this is in line with all the text that Jesus would sit at Jehovahs right hand until it was time to take his throne (Psalms 110)
        So does John 14:2,3 say that Jesus has to go to Heaven and make a place or prepare a place for his followers to come and live? That does not make sense… But go there and beginning to prepare an administration that would involve the last 2,000 and development of the bride class..

        3)With regards to Rev 20:6 ruling as kings and priests the exact same description at Rev 5:10 places the location of this on “Earth” not in Heaven.
        Consider also that Rev 21:2,3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God
        The scripture indicates “New Jerusalem”, comes down from Heaven, that is that this is of God a heavenly source not an earthly source but prepared by God..
        .Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

        Also consider Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
        The “Saints”, Christ body and the Beloved city “New Jerusalem” are both on earth where this rebellion encircles them…

        4) Consider the promise to Abraham and to his seed… they shall Inherit the land..
        As Christ body of members would not this promise belong to them as well?
        Ga 3:29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
        Promise includes Inherting the land… (Matt 5:5)

        5) Immortal Boddies to be a new creation from God, the source of these bodies is Heavenly or of God.. 2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

        6) Jesus stated the Kingdom is not of this World… I believe he had in mid that it was of the Heavenly source and not of this present evil age.. Also it was on a time schedule… Certainly this earth is to be beneficiaries of this Kingdom…

        Note that as I presented there is not a simple clear statement that anyone is to live in heaven or go to heaven… There are a lot of scriptures that are assumed to mean such like when the term “Heavenly calling” is used, but this is referring of a calling not a place to go and live as a reward…

        Jesus will give rewards when he returns Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

        Our rewards and our Inheritance is reserved in the Heavens and you might liken it to your retirement; it is being kept in the bank but you do not need to go and live in the bank to recieve your reward…

      • Bret (B.S.)

        Jacqueline;

        With regards to the John 14:2,3 your definition is right on but it is refering to it being the resting place of Christ believe and that is inline with so many of Jesus parables of traveling to a distant land and staying there a long time before coming back…

        Isn’t it interesting that not a single one of those parables has him coming back and gathering his followers to travel back to where he left too or came from..
        Instead it has his coming back as a permenant situtaion to give rewards and to straighten out matters..

        Again it is very interesting to me that not 1 scripture in all the Hebrew text has Christ the Messiah in Heaven… this sort of foreign idea was not wven considered among the Jews…

        In the New Testemant there is not a solid scripture that states anyone would go and live in Heaven, but the word Heaven caries some very symbolic ideas in both the old and new testament…

        • Jacqueline (Bible student)

          Brett, the Jews believed and had hope of life on earth only. Jesus brought in something new. Jews today even have belief in earth never in heaven so their belief
          Doesn’t matter in Christianity.in his fathers house are many abodes and he went there to prepare a place for them that where he would be they would be also.
          HEAVEN is an actual place like Venus, Mars, Earth is a place not just up. Jehovah has a dwelling in a place called heaven and Jesus lives there. This is new to the Jews and the rest of man before Jesus came. He opened the way for humans to be changed to a NEW CREATURE and go to heaven and see him just as he is and see God face to face. All Christianity basically have that thought correct. That is how I see it.
          PS: Also Brett you said Paul thought of Jesus ad an immortal man but when he appeared on the road they didn’t recognize him and yet he had another covering of flesh when he appeared to Thomas. Do which body is his immortal one?
          Also what body was that they saw him ascend in in Acts. We know he didn’t take flesh and blood to heaven. Where on the earth would he be with his flesh? Do you believe he went back to his father in heaven as he prayed for in John 17?
          Rev 21 does indeed say that Jehovah tents with man. The book of Revelation is in symbols however.

          • Bret (B.S.)

            Jacqueline:

            I would like to state once again that I am not being dogmatic on these points and questions I raised. first let me get this out of the way. I believe Jesus ascended to Heaven and sat down at the right hand of Jehovah. I do not believe Jesus was resurrected with his fleshly body that he had prior to his death and resurrection. I believe that he received an immortal body, incorruptible and that it was a New Creation. He could both present himself visible to others, even eat food as he did during the time he revealed himself to his apostles and followers. He appeared within locked rooms and even disappeared obviously having the ability to be invisible. I am simply stating that he did not refer to himself as a spirit, and Paul did refer to him as a “MAN” after his resurrection; therefore I stated he is an “immortal man”.

            JESUS resurrected immortal body- I do not put any limitations on what Christ can do in this immortal state or with the material he is made of therefore it is not out of the realms of jesus being able to appear different each time he was seen. This fact has no bearing on what I stated with regards to Jesus and his resurrected body.

            With regards to Christ’s followers receiving life in Heaven, I do not agree with you that it is that simple of a truth….
            You quoted John 14:2,3 again as proof text for heavenly life, and notice if you would in your Benjamin Wilson Diaglott or any word for word translation for that matter that the word “Home” isn’t in the original Greek text but has been injected in some translations to present a preconceived idea.

            John 14:2,3 is the most quoted text for proof of life in heaven but Jesus said that when he returns he would receive the apostles to himself that where he is they would be also.
            You have to read a whole lot into the text to present the Idea that he was returning to gather them together and then take them back to heaven. That simply is not stated in that text…

            Certainly if life in heaven is so clear and evident you could give me a few scriptures that state such? As of yet when I consider the context of those scriptures that I previously consider text saying that Jesus followers would have life in Heaven I have learned do not say such a thing…
            I life in heaven is so clear in scripture that even christendom is correct certainly someone has some plain statements from the Bible that people are going to live or gain life in Heaven…
            Please present such text…

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Brett, I will leave it here for others to comment. I understand more precisely what you are saying now. I also reserve space to be thoroughly convinced only myself on some points I see in the Bible and not convince other than discuss my views. Let’ open it up. I told our class last night to come here and read the conversations. So I will give others their chance to speak. Take Care

            • Lee Anthony

              Hello,
              I have found this conversation very interesting. I read through 1 cor. Chap 15 and i feel as if it says there is a place for those of the spiritual being outside of the earth as an abode though of course i agree that i have saw no where in the scriptures that point to those of the bride of chtist actually living in heaven specifically but i feel the implication is there. Just a thought. Actually this has made we wonder about something else, in revelation chap 21 seemingly after the 1000 years the new jerusalem comes down out of heaven refered to as the bride and in verse 24 it speaks of the kings of the earth bring their splendor into it.. At this time would not the kings of the earth be the bride of christ? Either way it seems that they are on earth coming into this city that came down from heaven… Ia this making sense?

              • Bret (B.S.)

                Lee
                Jesus promises the land to the meek (Mat. 5:5) and locates the Kingdom of the future “on the earth” or perhaps “in the land” Rev 5:10

                Rev. 5:10 “epi tes gys” “in the land” or “on the earth,” because the Kingdom is destined to extend to the “uttermost parts of the earth” (Ps. 2:8).

                The promise to Abraham is to be fulfilled in the Messiah when the Jesus is invited to “Ask of me [God] and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession” (Ps. 2:7, 8).
                All these blessings are contained in Paul’s phrase “inheritance of the world” (Rom. 4:13) which he sees as the essence of the promise made to Abraham-the promise to which Gentile believers should cling since in Christ they are equally entitled to it Galations 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

                • Lee Anthony

                  Bret,
                  I agree with that, thanks for the response. I will say I believe that those ruling with christ as kings and priests will also, like Jesus, be able to take on a body as did Jesus after his resurrection or to also be an invisible spirit. (Phil 3:21) seems to me to explain this, but it still seems according to the previous verse (20) as it says that “our citizenship exists in the heavens” (Greek word translated from strongs number 4175) The word citizenship comes from the latin word for city. So being members of the household of God (eph 2:19) seems to imply they will be in heaven considering they have a body not of the earthly man but the heavenly man (Jesus) (1 cor 15:48-49)

                  • Bret (B.S)

                    Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ…

                    Paul was here speaking to living brothers and sisters so context has to be considered and understood to grasp what Paul was saying…
                    These brothers and sisters were said to have their citizenship in the Heavens along with the rest of the Christian congregations of the 1st century..

                    So if you are joint heir with Christ you too have a citizenship in the heavens while alive on earth… so what does this mean? Was Paul saying that they would go live in Heaven in the future?

                    I do not understand this to mean that Heaven is their future home… This simply means that their hopes and promises rest with God and they belong to the living God a part of Christ body where they are enrolled.

              • ZionsHerald

                Lee,

                I found your question about these ‘kings’ fascinating as it’s been an interesting study and continual discovery of mine as we work verse by verse through the minor prophets where this idea is also mentioned.

                You asked about Revelation 21 stating that “in verse 24 it speaks of the kings of the earth bring their splendor into it.. At this time would not the kings of the earth be the bride of christ”?

                Considering your text, look at the following parallel references in the Old Testament. It appears that after the judgment on Babylon, after the fall of the nations and the beginning of the judgment, that the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their actual wealth to Israel as an homage in worship to the Lord.

                Revelation 21:24
                The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth [s]will bring their glory into it.

                Zechariah 14:14
                Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles

                Haggai 2:6-8
                6 For thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Once more [h]in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. 7 I will shake all the nations; and [i]they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts. 8 ‘The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,’ declares the Lord of hosts.

                Isaiah 66:18-22
                [i]the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, [j]Put, Lud, [k]Meshech, Tubal and [l]Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites,” says the Lord. 22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,

                This last chapter in Isaiah shows the distinction between those who receive a land promise, and the Levitical priesthood which does not. This fits in well with the discussion I’ve been having with Brett.

                • Lee Anthony

                  ZionsHerald,
                  Thanks for the added input, this gives me a better understanding of the revelation verse and helps me to be more satisfied with what i feel the scriptures are saying as a whole in regards to the conversation as a whole.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Brett, the Jews believed and had hope of life on earth only. Jesus brought in something new. Jews today even have belief in earth never in heaven so their belief
          Doesn’t matter in Christianity.in his fathers house are many abodes and he went there to prepare a place for them that where he would be they would be also.
          HEAVEN is an actual place like Venus, Mars, Earth is a place not just up. Jehovah has a dwelling in a place called heaven and Jesus lives there. This is new to the Jews and the rest of man before Jesus came. He opened the way for humans to be changed to a NEW CREATURE and go to heaven and see him just as he is and see God face to face. All Christianity basically have that thought correct. That is how I see it.

  • Joey

    I love you Jacqueline ….I will post something soon on Ask You…..LOL

  • Jacqueline

    Thanks for the imput on third heaven, I was asked about the scripture and wanted your thoughts. You show great love for Jesus and what he has done for all of us.

    I never expected to go to heaven. But now I believe just as you and others do, that the door is still open and christians are being chosen. I believe that those living at the time of Jesus’ Return will join him in heaven. The Bible says this. There is no getting around it. The little hows is where some of us differ. I believe in order that cars will not be abandoned etc. but again those are the little hows.

    I do believe in a paradise on earth, but not in the exact manner as the witnesses. I believe armageddon is a war with nations and Jehovah, his day, not wholesale massive killing of humans. I believe he will use Jesus and his army to accomplish this.

    I understand what most people mean when they say rapture, however it is a deeper teaching that does not quite harmonize with Jesus purpose in having saint in heaven. They have a job to do also. Help him subject all things under his feet and go ruling in the midst of his enemies on earth until it is back to Eden.

    Enjoyed your post and Joey, cold water can be refreshing on a hot day. Until later my brother. Jacqueline

  • Joey

    Thank you for your kind words of support, Jacqueline. I know that this is a freedom from fear house, and I should have known better…I believe you mean second not first Corinthians 2 Corinthians 1 thru 7…the term third heaven used by Paul is one that will keep people in discussion forever,it seems, with opinions all over the place,I’m afraid I don’t have anything to add to it. ..It seems like to me Paul had an out of body experience,the. 14years ago MAY speak of the time he was stoned nearly to death when he was in Lystra with Barnabbas ( acts 14:19) I may be wrong,I am just supposing…I do believe that “Paradise ” refers to a place in heaven where God resides, On the cross Jesus told the believing criminal that he would be with him in Paradise that day, (luke 23:43) I will not allow the placement of a comma keep me from believing that the moment I die I will be in the presence of the Lord…absent from the body,present with the Lord…especially since the Manuscripts are written without punctuation. For 2 thousand years now Christians have faced death knowing that they would merely be passing through a portal …There are many who believe Paradise is in heaven as Rev.2:7 seems to indicate, There are less who believe that there’s 2 groups or classes of redeemed: a heavenly class (144,000)that has been closed to new “anointed ” since theWTBTS said so in 1935…and a second group with an earthly hope of living on a Paradise earth where a lion will lay down with a Lamb,and other normally dangerous beasts will be led by a child….I have no doubt that the earth will be restored to its previous garden of Eden existance.Even though the words Paradise and earth are not ever found together in the Bible. ..Again I will believed the Bible when it says that Jesus rose bodily and that he is coming back in like manner as it says in acts the first chapter. I Believe it is God coming back to give what for(Zechariah.12:10 and14:4, and especially 5) …Rev.1:7 …I listed verses above plus I can list scripture ad nauseum,however there appears the need to differentiate between the coming of the Lord for his church(his bride) that would be all spirit begotten believers in the Lord,his saints that are still alive on the earth,this event known as the rapture(do not be alarmed that word not found in the Bible,simply-a catching away) as described in thessalonians (1&2)…between the rapture and the great day of the Lord when God will reckon with his enemies ( Zechariah.14:4,5)…RAPTURE:Titus2:13,1Thess4:16,2thess.1:10.1john2:28…etc.
    The Lord coming back to judge the world:Rev.1:7,Rev.19:11-16,psalm96:13,98:9,Isaiah 66:15,16,Math. 25:31…..etc..So it is an interesting discusion about Paul in 2corinthians 12:1-7…I certainly look forward to heaven (whatever level) when I die, or if the Lord returns to rapture his church ( body of believers ) while I am alive ( for I am waiting for him,my lamp is lit,and plenty of oil ) then I shall meet him in the air at the sound of the trump,I will be changed and so shall I ever be with the Lord…I hope I added to your discussion Jacqueline and not poured cold water all over it.( smile ) God bless …….

  • Joey

    HELLO PETER K. I AM GLAD YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST…I ON MY END AM HAVING TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES WITH MY COMPUTER,,I AM FORCED TO
    USE MY PHONE TO MAKE THIS ENTRY HERE. ..I WILL GO BLIND IF THIS CONTINUES…I HAVE JUST AN ADMINISTRATIVE QUESTION CONCERNING THE LOCATION ARRANGEMENT OF MY POSTED ENTRIES,MY EARLIER POSTS APPEARING LATER AFTER MY LAST ONE…JUST WONDERING IF YOU THOUGHT IT BEST THAT WAY,I THOUGHT IT WAS BETTER THE ORIGINAL WAY…
    GOD BLESS AND THANK YOU

    • Jacqueline

      Joey hello,
      I have been busy on the fading article and other matters.
      But did I read correctly that you think you have worn out your welcome???
      There are Lurkers that read but never post. One such lurker called and said Joey is holding his own. It’s an ex-JW elder. You encourage others when you comment and present scripture to explain why you believe as you do. Remind me of the csripture in Mark 9:49,50.
      49. “For everyone will be salted with fire.
      50. ‘Salt is a good thing; but if the salt loses it saltiness, what will you season it with?
      Have salt in yourselves; and be at peace with one another”.
      One aspect of salt is it’s ability to not only to preserve but it has a cleansing and healing effect. Oh it might sting a little bit.
      You see Joey, many persons coming to this sight are watching and reading the back and forth comments. You see they are witnesses or ex-witnesses and they cannot express themselves openly if it is not what is “present truths” taught by the watchtower. They will get disfellowshipped! But they want to talk sometime and say what is on their mind.
      When they see you are not kicked off (smile) yet you hold to your beliefs, it might give them the courage to speak up and say whats on their mind. They are searching because they want to talk and discuss scripture, sometimes it’s like a fire in them. Don’t you dare stop posting and talking, maybe some of the ones lurking will jump in feet first. (That’s an invitation lurkers). This is a fear free zone. Many talked about your life story and realize there may be a Veronica in their family if they leave the Org.
      Joey, knowledge is not the mark one looks for in Christians. Jesus said at John 13:34,35.
      34. “I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love on another.
      35. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have LOVE among yourselves.”
      Families love each other and don’t always agree. But Christians als should agree on this scripture and it binds us like love a perfect bond of union.
      1John 4:11-15:(Jerusalem Bible)
      11. “My dear people, since god has loved us so much, we too should love one another.
      12. No on has seen God; but as long as we love one another God will live in us and his love will be complete in us.
      13. we can know that we are living in him and he is living in us because he lets us share his Spirit.
      14. We ourselves saw and we testify that the father sent his Son as savior of the world.
      15. IF ANYONE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, GOD LIVES IN HIM, AND HE IN GOD.
      Here we all acknowledge that scripture. We can disagree and not have the correct total understanding of a scripture. but the Bible says, if we built on the foundation that Christ laid, we still get a reward, one who’s works are burned up will suffer lost, but they will still get life. (1Cor 3:10-15.)
      So don’t you go anywhere. Stay with us. People are reading my brother.

      But can you please tell me what you think about 1Cor. 12:1-7? What is your take on the “Third Heaven”? And where is Paradise? What happened to Paul here? You seem to have reference books and etc.
      Br. Peter might post this last par. on the ask Jacqueline page, but some of us are in hot discussions on this. Look forward to your comment. Joey please don’t use your phone to post, it is painful thinking about you typing with such a small device. (smile)

  • Joey

    Peter K. with due respect I posted my comments to establish what I believe the bible teaches…A literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.It is what my interpretation is when I read all 4 gospels and the rest of the new testament.
    I do not believe it is possible for me to convince someone,anyone,who believes opposite,(a spiritual resurrection)and also believes that that tenet is supported by scriptures which they believe back it up..So in effect if I were to comment on every scripture you listed to support the spiritual resurrection of Christ,it would amount to a theocratic warfare scenario which would serve but to scissor up the scriptures…Now I realize what I just said sounds like a cop-out,and what I am also going to say right now sounds like one as well..that is, that all the scriptures listed have to be taken in context and have nothing whatever to do with a spiritual resurrection of our Lord. O.K. be that as it may, a cop-out on both,though I firmly believe the latter
    Let me then look at the scriptures listed,do I have to go all the way to the top? MAN,that is a lot to comment on but I will try.
    HEAVEN AND ITS OCCUPANTS ARE INVISIBLE?
    well both scriptures listed have word which mean the same;one says invisible and the other says unseen. In colossians and in 1corinthians,while I get that there are invisible and unseen entities in the heavenly and spiritual realm.I get that I(we) can’t see the spirit realm,pardon me I do not see how those verses show that those who are in heaven are invisible to each other.That which is flesh is temporal,that which is spiritual is eternal.Occupants in heaven will be able to see each other…don’t you think?A study on the new body that we will have in the heavenly realm is in order.Reading all of Pauls and others description of the hope groaned for rom.8:23,1cor.15:35-58,phill.3:21,colossians3:4,phill.3:20,2cor.5:2,4, for is necessary,please I am sorry if that sounds condescending.
    CHRISTIANS GET A SPIRIT BODY IN THE RESURRECTION
    I know that we disagree on John3:1-21..I heard brother Stein and his take on ‘born again’. I believe that what Jesus was saying there in those verses is that once you believe,truly believe, in Jesus Christ, then one has become spiritually alive at that moment…They have passed ‘from death unto life eternal’John5:24,1john3:14,2cor.5:17,1peter1:23,john20:31,1john5:11–13,1john4:9,john3:36…all these passages describe a spiritual rebirth,that before believing one did not have,in effect before believing we were dead spiritually,only by becoming ‘born again’are our spirits quickened unto life eternal…the passage you mention there john3:6-8,13 I don’t see that it talks about the kind of body we are going to have in heaven..The rest of the verses under that heading I already said that an exhaustive study of the kind of spiritual body Paul was talking about should be undertaken.In no way am I saying that the flesh,blood and bones body we have now will occupy the heavenly realm, for as Paul says we shall be changed.1john3:2 and Paul both talk about ‘we shall know him then,how we see thru a glass darkly,but then we shall know and see Him as he is…Not flesh as we know flesh to be,but a spiritual incorporeal vessel(body)..not invisible to each other there,but to us here.We cannot see the spirit world but we will be able to see up there,when and if we get there.
    ANGELS ARE INVISIBLE SPIRITS
    Complete agreement
    GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT(BEING)
    Complete agreement
    JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT(BEING)
    That statement is too dogmatic I believe, the bible is clear that Christ rose bodily. In my previous post I mentioned many scriptures that affirm this.
    Notwithstanding the verses you list thus;
    1peter3:18 has been used many times to show Christ raised a Spirit,and it does say that, so how do we answer?For example do we disregard all the verses I mentioned in my previous post?Do we say all of the physical appearances by Christ should be taken symbolically?Is there a contradiction in the word of God?Do we disregard acts1:9-11,especially 11.Ye men of Galilee…this same Jesus,which is taken up from you into heaven,shall so come in like manner as you have SEEN Him go into heaven.
    There has to be an answer from the word of God concerning 1peter3:18..For surely Peter was an eyewitness to the physical resurrection of his Lord,as was all the other apostles,including Paul(1cor.15:8)despite what was written in acts above on the damascus road(acts9:7)yet in acts22:9 Pauls companions SAW the light but heard nothing.I firmly believe without contradiction what Peter means in1pet.3:18 is expounded on in 1pet.4:6…We can go round and round. I am not arguing that The Lord Jesus Christ is limited as to how he will and does appear to whomever he wishes.I am just saying that the bible shows that saying that Jesus is a spirit being and therefore always will be a spirit being and invisible is a little too dogmatic.We see in acts chapter1 listed and we know elsewhere that Jesus is coming visibly (zech12:10 and zech.14:4)..
    SPIRIT BEINGS IN HEAVEN DO NOT HAVE BODIES OF FLESH
    AGREED, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
    Not the flesh we have,again an exhaustive study of the ‘corruptible putting on incorruptible’ needs to be undertaken by everyone to be satisfied on that question.verses listed above(not exhaustive)
    note that Luke24:39 needs to be understood clearly, Jesus here is clearly indicating a bodily,not spiritual resurrection the context is clear and unambiguous.Jesus rose from the dead bodily,and the disciples knew it and wrote about and taught it.John20:20,27,1john1:1,john2:19-22,(BODY)Mk.16:11,13,14-Mt.28:17…
    There is scriptural support for the bodily resurrection of Jesus.The bible clearly does not teach that Jesus rose spiritually and just manufactured a body (materialized)a body whenever, just to show his disciples a body..He clearly showed himself in the body that was crucified pierced with a lance wound in his side,nail wounds in his hands…Now because he entered a closed room,or the two on the emmaus road did not recognize him right off,or at the shore where the disciples could not make him out is no indication that he had a spiritual body.That the Lord was capable of transcending dimensions,or that he can cover eyes so that He cannot be recognized,or that He is capable of anything we can or cannot imagine,cannot nulliify the fact that the disciples were indeed satisfied and taught that he rose bodily…On this point we will have to agree to disagree.
    HOW DID THE DISCIPLES RECOGNIZE HIM AFTER HIS RESURRECTION
    I believe I just answered this above
    the question was: If He looked like Jesus why would they consider asking?
    The premise of the question I think is, Jesus materialized bodies as needed in order to indicate that he rose from the dead,spiritually only…that the disciples could not recognize,meaning He materialized his bodies at will..I don’t know why the question needs asking,really…the answer is that it says they knew it was the Lord.Why Jesus did not want folks to recognize him on occasion is not answered in the scriptures.Speculating is one thing but saying that because He did not want to be immediately recognized is not proof that he rose spirituallly
    HOW DO WE EXPLAIN REV.1:7
    How about we believe it as written plus verse4and 8,plus zech 12:10-14 which is quoted again in john19:37,dan.7:13,1thess.4:17,rev.4:8,rev22:17-20…there are more that indicate that the Lord is returning visibly, and will be seen.
    HEBREWS the 11th chapter is the great faith chapter;the verse indicated:
    As seeing him who is invisble ”as if” he(Moses) saw God,he didn’t doubt that God called him to this work and sustained him,than as if HE HAD SEEN HIM WITH HIS OWN EYES.A very accurate account of faith, as the entire chapter indicates.
    Romans1:20 Unless you are prepared to say that Jesus Christ is God allmighty(which I believe)and I know you don’t believe that.Then it puzzles me why you would use that verse to indicate that Jesus is and always will be invisible. For Paul is writing here for all of those numbskull pointy-headed ATHIEST AND AGNOSTICS that we all love so much,here..
    THE WORLD WON’T SEE JESUS WHEN HE RETURNS
    Again we will agree to diagree
    I have indicated via biblical scripture how that the world will see Jesus clearly;you also have indicated the same when you list rev1:7…I included verse 4 and8;you included ezek.38:22,23 and ezek.39:6,7 and27. I also included a bunch more,but not exhaustive verses that clearly show we (the world,everyone)is still awaiting the Lords physical and visual return…I do not believe in my heart that the bible says anywhere (what theWTBTS believes,maybeBS as well)that Jesus returned invisibly since 1879 for BS(?), 1914 forWTBTS…
    In fact just the opposite:
    Mt.24:23 Then if any man say unto you, Lo,here is Christ,or there;believe it not
    Luke17:22,23 And he said unto the disciples,The days will come,when you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man,and you shall not see it.
    23.. And they shall say to you,See here;or, see there:go not after them,nor follow them…see also Mark13:21,Luke21:8..
    ARE THESE SCRIPTURES LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC
    Again we need to agree to disagree…
    I believe that the bible is clear;that the Lord will be revealed visibly when He returns in like manner as he left(which BTW we did not mention others who ascended directly into heaven,Enoch and Elijah,I’m sure their flesh and blood bodies instantly changed,or Houston,we have a problem,perhaps a future discussion)as described in acts the first chapter.The scriptures you mentioned above should be taken literally as the bible clearly indicates. As I mentioned in my earlier post these scriptures become problematic when confronting the “Studies in the scriptures” by C.T.Russell.
    They all fit nicely when the entire council of the bible is weighed as I have indicated….God bless all.

    p.s. I certainly hope that I have not worn out my welcome here,by what I posted,after all,as you know I am not a ”Bible Stident”and Peter K. you are well within your rights to ask me to not return to this website,and I will comply,should you ask.It is not my intention to argue with anyone, I just felt compelled to reveal what I believe the scriptures disclosed to me…
    THANK YOU

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Joey,

      Thanks for taking time to respond to me. I appreciate your enthusiasm, as well as you deep love for Jesus and the scriptures.

      * Yes, I agree that the spiritual occupants in heaven can see each other, even if they are invisible to us.

      * Yes, I agree that Christians (begotten of the Holy Spirit) get a spirit body in the resurrection

      * Yes, I agree with your thought regarding a spiritual rebirth, that those that are baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit become New Creatures. However in John 3, Jesus is talking about the going to heaven (John 3:13) and he points out that the person born of the spirit is like the wind, in that you don’t know where he is going (John 3:8).

      * I do think Christ is an invisible spirit being. Just as angles were able to materialize and eat a meal with Abraham, so Christ exercised the same ability during the forty days before his ascension. I do not think that the disciples were able to recognize him by his physical appearance, but only by his familiar mannerisms, behavior and miracles.

      * Yes, I think Jesus will return in the same MANNER as he went (Acts 1:9-11), quietly and only seen by his followers. If by “same manner,” Jesus meant his physical appearance, then taking other scriptures literally create contradictions. For example, in 1 Thes 4:16 he descends from heaven with a trumpet, in 2 Thes 2 he descends in flaming fire, in Rev 14, he comes on a cloud with a crown on his head and sickle in his hand and in Rev 19, he comes on a white horse with a sword coming out of his mouth. I personally harmonize all of these four apparent contradictions by interpreting them symbolically, not literally.

      Joey – I don’t have time right now to respond further since I have to work today. I have some Bible Student friends who may correspond further, so for now I will give them an opportunity to comment, or anyone else visiting our site. I really do admire your passion and commitment to exploring scriptures. I wish that many more Christian’s would share your passion.

  • Joey

    BTW the question above;
    ARE SCRIPTURES LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC ?
    I believe they are literal are are only problematic when they are confronted with the premise (faulty,I respectfully submit)put forth in the ‘Studies in the Scriptures”. Again I respectfully submit that if everyone start afresh with the revealed word of God, the bible, than one can see its truths in a new and exciting way as directed by the Holy Spirit of God.
    God bless one and all.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Joey – It’s always good to hear from you on our site. However, I must say that I am puzzled by your comments. You have not responded to even jone of the scriptures quoted. This post contains dozens of scriptures which support the view that Jesus has an invisible and spiritual body, not a body of flesh, blood and bones. Often times, people will quote a scripture and take several paragraphs to convince us that the verse is not really saying what it appears to say. We don’t need to do that. We often just simply quote scriptures and let them speak for themselves. If you want to address a particular scripture that we quoted and explain to us why it is not really saying what it seems to be saying, we are all ears. Or perhaps you have a different scripture that you would like to present. Either way, you have the challenge of overcoming the apparently clear statements of dozens of scriptures. Thanks.

  • Joey

    The suppressed Gospels and Epistles of the original New Testament of Jesus the Christ/Chapter 18
    From Wikisource

    ←Chapter 17: Philadelphians The suppressed Gospels and Epistles of the original New Testament of Jesus the Christ
    by Ignatius of Antioch, translated by William Wake
    Chapter 18: Smyrnaeans Chapter 19: Polycarp→
    For other translations of this work, see Epistle to the Smyrnaeans.

    IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRNEANS.

    CHAPTER I.

    IGNATIUS, who is also called Theohorus, to the church of God the Father, and of the beloved Jesus Christ, which God hath mercifully blessed with every good gift; being filled with faith and charity, so that it is wanting in no gift; most worthy of God, and fruitful in saints; the church which is at Smyrna in Asia; all through his immaculate spirit, through word of God.

    2 I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom.

    3 For I have observed that you are settled in an immoveable faith, as if you were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit; and are confirmed in love through the blood of Christ; being fully persuaded of those things which relate unto our Lord.

    4 Who truly was of the race of David according to the flesh, but the Son of God according to the will and power of God; truly born of the Virgin, and baptised of John; that so all righteousness might be fulfilled by him.

    5 He was also truly crucified by Pontius Pilate, and Herod the Tetrarch, being nailed for us in the flesh; by the fruits of which we are, even by his most blessed Passion;

    6 That he might set up a token for all ages through his resurrection, to all his holy and faithful servants, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, in one body of his church.

    7 Now all these things he suffered for us that we might be saved; and he suffered truly, as he also truly raised up himself; and not, as some unbelievers say, that he only seemed to suffer; they themselves ‘only seeming to be.’

    8 And as they believe so shall it happen unto them, when being divested of the body they shall become mere spirits.

    9 But I know that even after his resurrection he was in the flesh; and I believe that he is still so.

    10 And when he came to those who were with Peter, he said unto them, Take, handle me, and see that I am not an incorporeal daemon. And straightway they felt and believed; being convinced both by his flesh and spirit.

    11 For this cause they despised death, and were bound to be above it.

    12 But after his resurrection he did eat and drink with them, as he was flesh; although as to his Spirit he was united to the Father.

    I thought it might be interesting to copy and paste but just one chapter of an epistle of a very early church father,Ignatius who was a contemporary of Polycarp who knew John the apostle and learned by his side.
    I could have and wanted to copy as many of these early epistles as possible but decided one chapter of Ignatius makes the clear point that at no time did Christians during John,Peter,and Pauls day and after did they teach or believe that Jesus Christ was raised a spirit and not flesh.They most certainly taught and believed that Jesus was resurrected in the same body that suffered on the cross(see these:luke24:11, luke24:39,40,41,- john20:20,25, mark16:11,13,14, Mt. 28:17).. When the gospel (1corinthians15:1-8 actually the entire chapter)continued to be preached right through to the present time everyone who believed in the Lords resurrection believed it was a literal,BODILY,not spiritual one, at the time he was showing himself to the nearly 500 people for forty days.
    I humbly submit that only pastor Russell and maybe other not so well known folks have taught a spiritual resurrection.Only students of C.T.Russel (BS and WTBTS)and of the”Studies in the Scriptures” believe that Jesus did not rise bodily.So historically one must do something with the body that was interred in the sepulcher !!Do BS believe what is taught bythe WTBTS that Jesus’ body dematerialized into gases??..I submit that if you read the bible alone without extraneous literature you will not believe in what Russell put forth in his literature…
    I know that what Ignatius wrote in his epistles above is not scripture, I only bring it to show that he, Polycarp,and all early church fathers believed and taught a bodily resurrection,clearly…The only scripture that is true is the bible…nothing extraneous but the bible.
    Thank you and God bless

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