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We Believe

WE BELIEVE

  • Both the Old and New Testament are Jehovah’s inspired words; the primary source of all Truth.
  • Man did not evolve but was created
  • Jehovah created his only-begotten Son, Jesus.  Jesus created all other things.
  • Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born of Mary as a perfect human man, not as God in flesh.
  • God raised Jesus from death in a Spirit body, not in a physical body of flesh.
  • The Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active power and force, not a person.
  • The Trinity is no where found or taught in the Bible.
  • Man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul.  The soul ceases to exist after death.
  • There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished.  “Hell” is from the same Greek and Hebrew words for “grave,” describing the sleep of death, not eternal torment.
  • We are now living in the ‘time of the end’
  • Jesus returned and has been invisibly present on earth since the early days of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
  • The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the anointed Bride of Christ in heaven.
  • Earth will never be literally destroyed or completely depopulated
  • In the Kingdom, Christ will rule the earth in righteousness and peace
  • By their faithfulness to God, the obedient of mankind will be granted what our original parents lost—everlasting life in human perfection on a paradise earth.
  • Ultimately, the wicked will be eternally destroyed, but not first without a full opportunity to follow Christ.

Chart of the Ages Detailed

255 comments to We Believe

  • Hank

    Hi Mike;

    If you decide to become a Bible Student you should be made aware of this. Vol I Divine Plan of the Ages page 198,”As we have borne the image of the earthly, we{the Church} shall also bear the image of the heavenly”-unless their be a falling away.-1 Cor 15:49; Heb. 6:6 And here is what it says on page 321,”But those who willfully reject him and his work; after coming to a clear, full knowledge thereof, are in danger of the second death.”

    It gets a tougher language in some of the other volumes, but I won’t mention those.

    On the other hand I would like to give you some friendly advice. Hebrews was written about 61 C.E. and am not sure how long it took to get there. But in 5 years 66 C.E. the Romans came and left. Those who were spiritually awake, got out of the city and did not return. There was only a short period of time to get out. If you read the whole book of Hebrews you will see Paul, who had a compassion for his fleshly Israelites who had become Christians shows that some were very weak. Did he give up on them? No! But he gave a very big clue. Heb 10:23-25—Be at the meetings and not missing as some have the custom. I encourage you to come back to all the meetings. And I am not an elder or a ministerial servant and don’t talk to many, but an encouraged by the Bible topics. If you are looking for a social thing to get up built, you are looking for the wrong thing. NOW HERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS.

    Lets say I have sinned 20 xillion times. Because I am heeding the inspired Word of God and trying to make meetings and feed on His Word, and pray forgiveness. Jehovah God takes an eraser and wipes the board clen and even uses a wet cloth to totally remove the chalk and stains,NEVER TO BE BROUGHT AGAINST ME AGAIN.

    There is not one person living who does not sin. Read Isiah 65:1, you have been there come back. Remember James wrote how the tongue can start a big fire. Elders are immperfect to. As for whatever your problem is, keep going to Jehovah. Jer 33:3 Keep, means doing it,doing it, and doing it. He will forgive and forget.

    Hank

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Hank – Now, now Hank.  Let’s not discourage Mike here talking about second death.  You are a bit of a paradox to me.  Sometimes I want to wack you with my mothers dreaded wooden spoon and other times I want to give you a big hug. 

      For someone who who wants to warn us about what the Studies in the Scriptures say, you sure seem to enjoy reading them.  I do like the way you shifted to a more encouraging message as you continued your message to Mike. 

      We are not telling Mike or any other visitors that they should become Bible Students.  We want to be a source of spiritual encouragement and friendly discussion for our visiting friends here.  Mike expressed an interest in Bible Students and whenever that happens we are more than happy to provide our friends with information on on how to meet Bible Students in their area. 

      Of course Hank, you are always welcome to comment because it gives me another opportunity to pick on you.

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Hank, Matt. 18:20 says where there are two or three meeting in his name, thee am I in your midst. So it need not be a great number but it may.
      Hebrew 10:24,25 rightfully encourage us to assemble together for instruction in prophecy and moral doctrine; for Christian development; for questions; for expressions of divergent views; For mutual edification, encouragement and strengthening. For mutual advancement in spiritual things.
      The meeting together is for the brother’s benefit not the meetings benefit. There has to be an interchange and freedom to express how you see a scripture, not just sit there an parrot others thoughts from a magazine or a kingdom ministry’s script. Now we have skype, internet interaction, phone and snail mail. TV and Radio. Meetings should not be for control and keeping statistics and holding leaders on high. Christians meet together for the Spirit of Jehovah and Christ to flow and comfort as were as teach and admonish. Yes we should meet together often but like the evangelist Paul and others we also have freedom to go out to preach and let the two or three be the meeting. Witnesses once taught that the house meetings would be where we would meet during tribulation, but it was getting impossible to control the after meetings and comments that were different from the governing body’s view. So freedom should be where you meet. Sincerely Jacqueline

  • Mike

    I called the dial in conference about a few topics and each one focused on why your beliefs are so different or conflicting with JW’s or spent more time telling ones why they are wrong rather than it seems just focusing on the material and your viewpoints but still your site is “friends” of JW’s. I’m confused… just like I asked an elder who also has a site that discusses points he doesn’t agree with the org but still serves as an elder and gives talks so then why would you call yourself friends of an org you believe has it so wrong? It seems there could be confusion by many who might get an unclear picture of who you are and might even think you’re associated with them.

    This is not to come down on you since, even though I have emailed you via your contact us page and not got a response (cough cough lol), I do find it refreshing that you all get talk things out, regardless if someone has a different perspective or point, without thinking anything outside the cookie cutter is evil/ apostate. Bottom line.. both people who followed Russell and followed Judge were TECHNICALLY both apostates in the sense of the definition by church’s, although to me an apostate is someone who tries to convince me there is no Jesus, no Jehovah and to extent tells me they are one in the same. So I find it somewhat sad that both parties, where many of it’s members seem to want to do good, instead of just focusing on the material and teaching spend so much time telling others why the other is so wrong, apostate or other things that just to me as an imperfect man seems a bit judgmental. Just my humble opinion.

    So… explain to me and no doubt others why someone who is seeking spiritual guidance and direction should listen more to your org/ groups rather than go the jw route which would likely then deter me from reading such sites as yours. If what I’m getting from your site and talks you believe that all Christians will have chances to prove themselves during the great tribulation so it seems there is a HUGE difference between what you teach and the “only stay in the jw faith and do it NOW or else once the GT starts it’s way too late”. Also, I read some comments where some are still JW’s and go to meetings but still jump on here to vent or raise doubts, I like to also know how many of your members started out or if most are ex-jw’s who were DF, left because of stumbling or just came in from other religions.
    Thanks

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Mike – It is good to hear from you. I am sorry you were missed in the contact email. Is it too late now to hunt for that and respond? Our intention is to respond to all direct email contacts, so if we missed anyone else, feel free to reply here and let us know.

      You are wondering why we call ourselves “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses” when we spend so much time talking about why Bible Students have a different point of view than the JW Organization on this point or that one. Solomon couldn’t have explained it better.

      Proverbs 27:5-6 (NASV) “5 Better is open rebuke, Than love that is concealed. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.”

      Mike – Many JWs want to know who the Bible Students are and what are the differences between the JW Organization and the Bible Students. We try to provide that information and answer those questions on this site. We also discuss areas where we are in agreement. For example, Paradise earth, the Trinity error and that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

      Notice in the right panel that we have links to many other Bible Student websites. Very few of these focus on JWs. For the most part they present the Bible Student view as beautifully presented inn the Studies in the Scriptures. These websites will also explain how and why our views are different from Orthodox Christian thinking (i.e. Trinity, Hell and Immortality of the Soul.)

      It is not our attempt to attack honest and sincere JWs. We love them as brothers and sisters in Christ. However we hope that by discussing where we agree and disagree that this will open up the opportunity for more mutual communication and fellowship. Please notice Mike, that we don’t go around telling JWs that they should stop going to the Kingdom Hall, unless they are trying to leave and are looking for help on how to do it without having their personal life and relationships destroyed.

      Now the Apostle Paul went into the synagogues in Gentile lands and explained Christ. Paul was not there to condemn those who disagreed, rather to encourage those seeking more truth to find it and receive Christ.

      Now regarding the GT (Great Time of Trouble) and Armageddon, yes the organization under J.F. Rutherford departed from Russell’s view of a Ransom for ALL and believe that non-JW will be eternally destroyed if they die in Armageddon. Bible Students believe that even the wicked will be resurrected to the Paradise earth kingdom for a trial period of learning, where they will have to account for their evil deeds and make remedy and amends to the full extent that they can. The kingdom will be a very difficult time for the wicked, however if they repent and pursue righteousness, they will ultimately have an opportunity for happiness and eternal life. Find more here: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/

      Mike – Does this help for you to understand what we are doing here. I encourage you to continue the dialogue here and let us know what you think. Sister Jacqueline just became a grandmother, however she may find time to comment here too.

      • Mike

        Thanks Peter for responding and for further clarification. So looking at the site it seems you have conference call meetings and in some of the comments it mentions you have actual meetings but do you have actual in person meetings or just online call meetings? If so, where at on your site would ones find meeting locations around the US? Also, if you’re friends of JW’s then I suppose your group disfellowships members as well but how does it differ from JW’s? Do your members in each area also encourage each other in person or always just online?

        The reason I’m on your site is NOT because I think JW’s overall are bad, false prophets, or as a group have evil intent. I read from others online (including someone who says he is an elder currently in a congregation) that call them “false prophets” and show from the bible Deut. 18:22: “. . . when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.” Now does that lay it out that maybe the JW’s have been presumptuous it never calls them evil, so for anyone that says they are I close my mind to them since them that person accusing the JW’s are worse since they are doing the very things they accuse that org of doing. It says you shouldn’t be frightened of them, not that they are all evil nor they don’t have some purpose. But to be honest.. THAT is the reason for my trip to your site, fear.

        Pressure, feeling or being unworthy, disagreement with certain base teachings, had been on my mind for years and has beat me down so much that I have not been regular to meetings or service for over 2 years even though I 100% realize I need spirituality. I also seemed to not get any help fighting a weakness I had since 17. I was someone who knew the weakness needed to be conquered and didn’t make excuses but also had been someone abused as a kid so it wasn’t something I was just doing for the sake of it either. Instead of helping me a few elders called me an agent of Satan, though I never EVER tried to influence anyone inside the hall and each day/ time I lived in depression and mental anguish. One elder told me I might have committed the unforgivable sin since someone who keeps sinning there are no sacrifices left for that person he said according to the bible and two groups refused to reinstate me since they said I needed to be out a min of 1 year to REALLY understand my gross sin. What was more sad was I defended the org PASSIONATELY about why this was fair although people of other religions who we were taught everyone outside JW’s are “wordly” showed more concern to help and guide me spiritually to overcome my weakness or just in general than people who are known for their love.

        On top of that I also had issues with a few other things such as saying:
        * everyone not a JW faith are “worldly” (hate that term) will be destroyed,
        * although finally saying we are not directly inspired by God the GB telling all they are God ONLY direct channel on earth (on top of being the faithful and discreet slave even though they admit that isn’t put on a person until the future),
        * cliques where if you’re not an elder, MS or pioneer you’re not included in activities or invited to do anything but are counseled strongly if they see you with someone that is not a JW.
        * failure to admit mistakes although if it was me then I had a “bad heart condition”.
        * if someone has different views on a scripture or understanding contrary to the org you HAVE TO BE an apostate. even if that person believes core beliefs about Jehovah and Jesus and the bible is Gods word you’re STILL an apostate, which I pointed out I find ironic since technically JW’s and even bible students are ‘apostates” in that sense since they believe different things than the religions they left.
        * we started out as bible students with Russell even saying he held no special role and was just striving for truths the jw org now has elevated itself from just bible students to the only chosen ones which in the back of my mind if we would have stayed that way then even failed predictions would have been overlooked as overzealous but when we say we are the ONLY channel then ones mock God and us.

        Sorry for the book but I, like MANY others, know spirituality is not only important but vital to our pleasing God well and our survival. With that in mind I want to restore my weekly bible studies with others but find it more and more difficult to go to meetings without feelings coming back. Plus going out in field service would be VERY difficult since certain teachings of 1914, only JW’s will be saved, certain other teachings I would feel like do as I say not as I believe. I find it ironic that I have not been to meetings in 2 years but even though I fight the same weaknesses, and yes I still fail sometimes, I did not get worse and give up but kept picking myself up and even cut down on things I know I should work on and have bettered even my personality. I, like many, just want to be able to serve God without being even MORE pressured with the org we serve with since we get soo much pressure from ones who live contrary to what my core beliefs are. I also want to serve with other Christians without teaching of FEAR. I will admit… being around the org since 3 years old it does in the back of my mind STILL scare me that me checking out bible students as a way of serving God will lead me to destruction and maybe JW’s are right and are the ones ONLY on the ark but part of me still cannot shake that my readings of the bible shows Jehovah is near to ALL those who strive to serve him well and obey his commandments. Now I’m not saying EVERYONE who thinks they are serving God is right nor am I saying God approves of all worship but… I do believe while I do see a lot of individuals with the JW org doing the right thing and I’m sure are good people I just want to explore other options and your group is the ONLY other org I would consider since you share the same beliefs I do with the same tone I believe all worshipers of God should show to each other.

        • Jacqueline

          Mike, I had not read this reply when I posted the first one. In fact I can’t believe how you are stating some of the same things that I and others stated.
          Mike to still your fears, the Ark represents Jesus not an organization and they died Adamic death that Jesus would later redeem them.
          Armageddon is the take down of society not judgement day, it is 1,000 yrs. (even the GB admitted this in 2005.)
          Mike remember the Pharisee that prayed that he was not like the other man that admitted he was in sin? Which one did Jesus accept? For it is us sinners that he died for.
          You fall down but YOU GET BACK UP AGAIN! AND AGAIN! And Again! That’s what Christians do. I am going to try and get an ex elder to come on and comment to you if he will.
          He was molested from 18months to 12 yrs old! Tried committing suicide, checked out many religions and landed in the JW. I cry as I think about the things the Elders put this man thru!
          Another one I will ask if they will come on and talk to you. I sat in the congregation and saw the vile way they treated him after as a 50 year old man he came to the witneses only to see and ask questions and got on the elders blacklist! His DF meeting bordered on abuse but like you he took it.
          Mike the Holy Spirit of God is powerfull it can work wonders in your life if you will accept it. Remember the kings son that God let die and not suffer the anguish promise for the entire household? Why?
          Because God saw something GOOD in HIM!.
          Your comment reaches my heart personally. I saw it early this morning and thought about it as I drove from out of state to make an appointment. Now I know why.
          I am not able to write the scriptural text for my statements so please forgive me. I have to drive and I need to have my bibles out to find text but when I settle down I will quote the scripture’s place.
          Since three, WOW! For 61 years all my life also. The feelings of guilt will go away as you stay here with us.
          I am going to get started now on finding you a meeting face to face if possible but I would love if you will come on with us on Wednesday to start out. You will see people just like you that have sins but recognize the call of the Father.
          Could you give Br. Peter your phone number in contact us.

        • Dupin

          Hello Mike:

          I haven’t read on upwards to see if Br. Peter further addresses your post, so please excuse me if I cover something he’s addressed.

          I did notice that he did mention the intent here isn’t to attack the Witnesses as a group, individuaslly etc. However, many who come here want to know how our teachings differ, to be frank they want to leave the Witnesses are checking out what the Pastor wrote and taught because they don’t want to go back to doctrines they rejected when they became Witnesses because the know them to be false, AND want to make sure they aren’t somehow jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. I know that because those were some of my motives.

          To do that it is often to contrast our teachings with that of the Organization for lcarification of what we believe. It is what many are looking for. How are we different? Are we controling of our flocks’ personal lives? Just what sort of people are we? We also address subjects of interest to many Witnesses which they don’t dare discuss among each other such as the recent changes in the Watchtower teachings on the Faithful and Discrete Slave.

          We simply believe that we are the best alternative for those who want to leave the Witnesses, and we’re willing to give those who can find no place to discuss things that bother them about teachings whether they leave the Witnesses or not a place to do so and decide without pressure whether they want to personally do something about it or not.

          I commented in another topic that I consider the so called “false prophecies” of both Russell and the Witnesses to be predictions, not prophecies, and, hence, no more false prophecies than Hal Lindsey’s prediction in the book “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the world would end by 2007. So you’ll find little disagreement with me on that one.

          All the pressures you mention are things I’m well familiar with for the most part from my own 30 years as a Witness. I also understand your problem with various teachings, many of which simply do not comport with the God of the Bible, who according to it is the epitome of love (1 John 4:8). Jesus tells us through his word to: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt.11:29, ESV). If that isn’t what is going on then we need to reevaluate where we are and what we are doing, and find that rest, period. Although you find a few things which concern you please continue on with our site. but whether it is with us or eleswhere I hope you find that peace and rest our savior promises.

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Mike – Don’t mind Hanks talk about “second death.”  He can be a bit of a rascal sometimes, however we love him.

          I don’t believe anyone should be pressured to pursue the heavenly call, even if I encourage people to consider it.  It is a serious decision and those who choose it are on trial for life now rather than in the future on paradise earth.  There are usually some very well loved brethren in most Bible Student congregations who are NOT anointed and pursuing the heavenly call.  That is a personal decision.

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Mike, this is Jacqueline and I find your comment to be packed with logical questions. The site and none of us wish to make the JW religion a problem for those that are doing just fine. (I will elaborate in my last paragraph).
      We are not friends of the organization as we see no scriptural support for this corp and it’s earthly governing body. We seek to be friends in a helping way with individual JW.
      I am one of those that the BS came across and this site works well for xjw that spoke out against rape against young children and the policies that allowed it to continue to put them at risk. I had no issues with individual witnesses or elders. I dealt with the watchtower bureaucrats and they dictated the harmful and wrong dealings on the pedophilia issue. They have conceded only because of court action from sisters like me on the sexual harassment and the MASSIVE lawsuits of the victims.
      Thus this site deals with those that the watchtower society fought back on. I was not DF’d. They had not biblical nor legal ground to do so.
      But, they can have the elders and CO,DO make your life a living Christendom hell, publicly and privately. Sincere Jw are hurt and beat up when they finally realize these men have created a hellfire doctrine with Armageddon and your family nor others will come to help you against their pressures.
      Most if DF’d spoke out against doctrine that is clearly out of harmony with the scriptures and was silenced as an outward show to scare others into submission or lose your family.
      We are the friends of these Jehovah Witnesses!; and others that reason from the bible and know most of the scriptures are put in the wrong time frame and that Israel has to be the people talked about in scripture after the times of the Gentile domination ran out. My father, mother and some others that are deceased now was in this fight on blood transfusion when they were being forced on the brothers in the south. My dad fought back and was DF’d and refused to come back after a year when they asked him.
      Mike it makes sense now, that the world in general including most JW (they don’t profess the heavenly calling) are not on a trial for their life now. Adamic death not second death is still going on. Adamic death is ransomed already.
      However there are many JW that realize their begettal by the Holy Spirit and recognize that aside from the Levites priestly (Most Holy) ones there were the other levites that assisted in the temple work. These represent the Great Crowd that are seen by John in heaven not on the earth.
      These ones can find comfort in that hope here as we understand their knowledge of these deep things and how they are affected, and we try to calm and help them get steady on their feet. It does not take long, once they see they can talk without fear they leave this site and spring forward and we see them in the dust! David, Dupin, Jubal, Sharon and these are just a few.
      That is why we do the contrast it is for a certain “Concious Class”. Most witnesses are not conscious of their spiritual needs in this regard, they are happy with what they have and that’s okay.

      Now, I said I would elaborate on not making the JW religion a problem for those that are happy. Most witnesses follow the outline and feel this will get them thru Armageddon if they just obey the GB, something they can see. They feel if they die they ransom themselves (false belief that the wages sin pays is death statement means ransomed from death, not so.) So if Armageddon hit, they have gone in field service, studied watchtower and ministry school and they are happy.
      I need to apologize however to elders and what they have to do. How so? Well I had many witness visitors a few weeks ago, family and some I never met before. I had to take 2 persons that were stuck at my home to a party. It was on a narrow street in a small town. There were cars parked everywhere. There had to be over 700 witnesses in this huge yard (large enough to hold them). There was obvious over drinking and I was directed to the adults throwing the party on the dance floor (8×10). They were twerking! Bodies moving and swaying in a frenzy to the music! Floor so crowded bodies touching persons in front, behind and sideways. I asked the 40 something male that took me to look for my family if there were elders here? His reply and others was yes! So why do I bring this up and 2 more multistate parties of this nature?
      Because they studied their watchtower first! Then they got up to put some, I’m sure, none professing decent regular people to shame.
      These brothers would not find this site advantageous as they follow the script and know little about the bible except what the society says.
      I felt I just had to tell this experience Mike and your comment was the only one where I could show the contrast with the JW that would devour this site and search and prove to themselves and the ones that need to stay in a controlled religious environ. The average age of this group was 38-60 yrs. Fear of the elders probably helped keep it from becoming illegal.
      There are those that want the bible to make a difference in their lives by accountability to Jehovah and Jesus only. Maybe if the org removed accountability to them, then the true seekers of the bible would be revealed. Right now in the org. as my 12 page letter to them stated it is full of sexuality, gossip and clichés.
      The elders have their hands full and often will have to remove these ones from among them to keep it at bay. These are not the witnesses that this site appeals to.
      I know you are aware of what I am talking about and that this is a blessing to have the doctrines straightened out.
      Br. Rutherford saw a way to make money and he and his followers did good financially and he promised the adherents would survive Armageddon following his script and not worry about a personally relationship with God. The organization has supplanted Jesus and begun to rule now as the “earthy part of his organization”.(direct quotes from the org. literature.) With sincerity, Jacqueline

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Mike – Bible Students have congrgations around the world where we meet. I am one of several elders elected annually by the Chicago area congregation where we have over 150 brethren attending. We may be able to help you find a congregation near you.

  • doug

    Jacqueline and Dupin thank you for the welcome i appreciate it greatly, I sent a email earlier on asking any of you good people out there to sponsor me and send me the dvd( Russel and all the books on it)note i am a pensioner 68 living in Namibia I have a income of U$70.00 per month only and cannot afford the U$9.00 .
    my address is: MAY JEHOVAH BLESS ALL OF YOU.

    D H Dereuck
    P O Box 125
    Tsumeb
    Namibia.

  • doug

    I believe 100% in your beliefs,( friends of Jehovah’s wit) and cannot find anything
    wrong, i studied the Bible for 34yrs and will continue to do so,
    thank you,
    doug

    • Jacqueline

      Doug we would love to hear your story, would you share it with us.I am at the Indiana state fair we have a booth and many honest hearted perons are stopping to talk. I am typing on a cell phone,but I saw your comments and just had to welcome you.

    • Dupin

      Please allow me to extend a warm welcome to you as well, Doug. Go ahead and tell us a little about yourself if that isn’t a problem. And by all means ask any questions if you have them. I would also recommend that you read the “Divine Plan of The Ages” if you haven’t already.

  • I CAN NOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM HEARING. CHECK OUT ‘1 JOHN 4:3’. OLD IS OLD,
    THE NEW IS NEW TESTAMENT.
    HIS NAME IS ‘GOD THE FATHER, AKA: LORD CHRIST JESUS.
    CHRIST(GREEK) MEANING “THE ANOITED ONE” IN ENGLISH. LORD AND THE ANOITED ONE ARE “ONE”. ACTS 4:26. I AN AN EX-FREEMASON.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Carter – There is no verse in the Bible where we are told that Jesus is part of a Trinity. Or that God the Father is is Lord Jesus.

  • Jeff,
    I was associated with that group, in two periods.
    Between 1992 and 1993 and after a new split, when International JW’s was formed, some years ago, for another few months.
    I still believe that the true believers will be attached by all nations, in the End Time, in all places of the world.

    • Jeff M

      Thank you for the history Jani.

      What group do you associate with now? It appears they have some similar prophetic beliefs (in regards to this context of Zechariah).

      What city do you live in Romania? My wife is from Targu Mures, but I’ve visited many cities in the central and northern part of Romania.

  • max

    To Jeff;

    Starting on page 228 and it prints out on 15 pages beginning with R3820 TITLED “harvest gatherings and siftings.” It was previously published in 1894, entitled, “Harvest Siftings.

    What an article by the Pastor!!! For people who wanted to change one, I repeat one, simple belief of the Pastor his first sub heading reads,”Perils Among False Brethren-2 Cor. 11:26

    Note what he shows Jesus went through,”but it was when those who dipped in the dish with him lifted up the heal against him Psa 41:9; Matt. 26:23 and left him, that his heart was troubled; wounded by professed friends.”
    “and many went back and walked no more in his company,” saying of his doctrines,”This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
    Paul had his severest trials from “false brethren.” “and attempt to force new light.”

    The moral of his story is certain ones are with him and then say this is what I believe and it is different from his and they part ways. No where does he say about the 4 in the article, your okay, go that way and whoever wants to believe what ever, we are all going to rule from heaven, so its good we have different beliefs we can help more people then who have different beliefs.

    I challenge you Jeff to read the article. Or anyone who thinks we have the freedom of disunity. Ps 133:1

    • Jeff M

      You are welcome.

      I see actions such as that proceeding from a well intentioned heart.

      Keep it up, but keep the mind open as well.

      Let me tell you a story.

      Let me tell you a story.

      A friend of ours brought a relative (who was a Jehovah’s Witness) to one of our meetings. This friend is from South America and translation was needed.

      During the meeting a point came up that some of the Bible Student brethren had different opinions on. Each opinion was discussed, the Scriptures reviewed, and they moved on.

      This relative was a bit perplexed and leaned over to our friend (the translator) and asked, “When is the elder going to tell them the truth?”

      The point is that each of the Bible Students were going to go home that night and research from their Bibles to see what the Scriptures themselves said.

      This is what the Bereans did long ago and it is what we should also do. If we see something that we are told that doesn’t quite fit, we should question it and look to the Scriptures (with prayerful guidance from the Lord) so that through the Holy Spirit we can all come to a better understanding.

  • max

    Jeff he can’t gather dead people to come against heavenly Jerusalem. They that do are destroyed at Armegeddon. They go againt the faithful slave class, it is the only way they can go agaist God and his Son. They are in heaven so they attack the remaining ones of the seed. Check all the hate thats on the internet. Its there. Then after Armageddon those who were dead are given a resurrection, and keep in mind their former life stlye for most goes against God. Then the correction starts and they start worshipping the great God Jehovah. True there are some tjhat don’t make it, but it wasn’t because God didn’t give them a chance, and of coarse Jesus and the bride tried to them them also.

    • ken

      Max, keep in mind some people hate the JW’s for reasons other than theirs belief,in fact I just heard there’s a one billion dollar law suit against the GB in Australia….anyone else know about this?

    • Jeff M

      Max,

      I wasn’t meaning to restart this conversation. Of course he can’t gather dead people.

      You already know that I find the Jw perspective on this concept illogical based on several contexts of Scriptures. I don’t mind that you hold these views at all. I look forward to seeing the time when you will also recognize that God’s grace was much larger than you had anticipated. What I do mind is that you don’t generally respond to any of the reasoning that I raise for a response from you.

      Would it hurt to give it a try?

      I see you as a person who is trying to help his former believers. I see the good intentions behind what you are trying to do.

  • max

    Hi Jeff;

    What will these have to do? John 5:28,29. With the great crowd to assist and teach them, they will be faced with a choice. They will all have to put Jehovah’s worship first. Those who do will come up to the worship of the heavenly Father, at his spiritual temple. This divine requirement for such resurrected ones is spoken of in Zechariah’s closing sentences. Here is a key part Jeff.

    Those of whom he speaks did not come up to Jehovah’s temple before Jerusalem was attacked. So they do not picture survivors of Armegeddon. They appear on earth after it by resurrection.

    That last paragraph Jeff makes it so clear. I pray you can see it.

    • Jeff M

      Max said, “Those of whom he speaks did not come up to Jehovah’s temple before Jerusalem was attacked. So they do not picture survivors of Armegeddon. They appear on earth after it by resurrection.”

      Scripture says —

      “. . . for I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle . . .” Zechariah 14:2

      ” . . . then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts . . . ” Zechariah 14:16

      Seems clear to me. The unbelieving survivors of this battle will be given an opportunity after the battle of all nations against unbelieving Jerusalem to worship!

      How wonderful is our God!

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