We Believe

WE BELIEVE

  • Both the Old and New Testament are Jehovah’s inspired words; the primary source of all Truth.
  • Man did not evolve but was created
  • Jehovah created his only-begotten Son, Jesus.  Jesus created all other things.
  • Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born of Mary as a perfect human man, not as God in flesh.
  • God raised Jesus from death in a Spirit body, not in a physical body of flesh.
  • The Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active power and force, not a person.
  • The Trinity is no where found or taught in the Bible.
  • Man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul.  The soul ceases to exist after death.
  • There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished.  “Hell” is from the same Greek and Hebrew words for “grave,” describing the sleep of death, not eternal torment.
  • We are now living in the ‘time of the end’
  • Jesus returned and has been invisibly present on earth since the early days of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
  • The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the anointed Bride of Christ in heaven.
  • Earth will never be literally destroyed or completely depopulated
  • In the Kingdom, Christ will rule the earth in righteousness and peace
  • By their faithfulness to God, the obedient of mankind will be granted what our original parents lost—everlasting life in human perfection on a paradise earth.
  • Ultimately, the wicked will be eternally destroyed, but not first without a full opportunity to follow Christ.

Chart of the Ages Detailed

289 comments to We Believe

  • With this part, I have some comment, please.

    We are now living in the ‘time of the end’ – Right, But I believe not after Revelation 6:1. We are before Revelation 6:1. I believe this great events will coming in the right time.

    Jesus returned and has been invisibly present on earth since the early days of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. – No, no, no. The great sign of his presence will be clearly seen, by all man of the earth, according to Matthew 24:30

    The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are the anointed Bride of Christ in heaven. – I admit. But they are without lie and fault, according to Revelation 14:5. Could we say this about CTR, JFR, NHK, et CO? I read the SS and the FM, is with great errors, and this will cost them.

    Earth will never be literally destroyed or completely depopulated – Totally not, but If you will read the book of Revelation with an open mind, you will see the great and terrible tribulation before us. Milliards will die in their great sin, the sin of the great apostasy – compare with Revelation 14:9-11

    In the Kingdom, Christ will rule the earth in righteousness and peace – And with a terrible law for sinners, the penalty of the death will be a fact of punishment for unrighteous, all sins will disappear

    By their faithfulness to God, the obedient of mankind will be granted what our original parents lost—everlasting life in human perfection on a paradise earth. – Yes, after the last test.

    Ultimately, the wicked will be eternally destroyed, but not first without a full opportunity to follow Christ. – I disagree. No second chance.

    Lets talk about this differences, please.

    • Jacqueline

      Hi Jano thanks for commenting. I will comment on our getting a “second chance”. Ezekial 18:20; Romans 3:23; Gen 2:17 all show we are captives to sin and death. Adam had a first chance but we never did. We were born with a shackle of failure to meet the mark of perfection and thus die through no fault of our own. Acts 4:12 shows there is only one name whereby we can be saved it is Jesus and there lies JUSTICE. Is it right for another to decide you and my fate. What would you and I have done when faced with the eating of the tree. Thru Christ we can see. I agree that ultimately the wicked will be destroyed either during the millenium or at the great test of the loosing of Satan afterwards. Here is an article from this site about that in detail, you might find it useful.
      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/11/23/liberty-justice-for-all/
      Jani, may I ask how you found our site? I might not get back to you right away as I must step out for a bit. I see you have great respect and faith in the bible and I want to welcome you to the site. Others will no doubt comment.

      • I know this site before. I forget how I find it, believe me.
        For your answer, there is a matter of understanding, just one bible verse> John 3:36
        I think we have many chance in our life to start to obey God, even without the Bible or any Christian preacher. And if we did not do this, we are without excuse, according to Romans 1:20.

        • Jacqueline

          Jani some feel that Jesus can’t ransom all of mankind. They say it his ransom is very limited in whom it releases from Adamic sin. But the Bibles says at 2 Peter 3:9 – “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ASV Have you ever wondered why he says all if all will not have that chance. Some humans now don’t have a chance because of where they are born or in circumstances beyond their control.
          “Who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.” (1Ti 2:6 NW notice again the value of that gift the ransom can cover all. As humans we sometimes are critical of our own fellow humans, not knowing the shoes they walk in. Some don’t even have the mental capacity now to understand Christ. I heard in reply to that is that God will read hearts. The heart is affected by what is put in thru the mind sometimes. But wouldn’t the simple action of the at-one-ment (atonement) of the ransom provided be the solution. One man got all of us in this and one man the heavenly son of God can get us out of it. The simplicity makes it difficult sometimes to understand. Even somewe consider wicked have probably done a lot of good in their lifetime just as those we considered good have done some bad, but Jesus can cover it. I like your blogspot’s name “waitingforthefinaltest.blogspot.ro. I am waiting for the resurrection first myself as there are so many I want to see for the first time and some meet again especially my mother and father.

          • Thank you. My struggle against your opinion comes from love. I want to save you from a wrong interpretation, who could be fatal to you at resurrection. Trying to save people through wrong doctrines about salvation will cause you to lost your proper salvation. Please, take care first of your soul.

            • Jacqueline

              Hi Jani, 1John4:8 says God is love. 1John5:3″ For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” Matt 12:28-34 Jesus sums up the whole law code which is from God in two commandments, bothe of them are about love of and for God and the other is about love for our fellow man. One is not far off from the kingdom of God Jesus said if you obey these.
              I think the point I am making is when you said “trying to save people through wrong doctrine about salvation…..” The bible does not say doctrine saves you. To believe this means you think you can earn salvation by some vast correct knowledge and exact understanding of scripture.
              Acts4:12 :Furthermore there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” We know that Jesus has saved us, it is a gift from God.(Rom6:23)
              I once thought learning by rout the doctrines taught would get me life, even obedience to what manmade religions and institutions acting in behalf of Jesus(supposively) would help me get salvation. But this is not so according to the scriptures, I was misinformed. Now I know Jesus requires Christians that are to help him bring the many to righteousness to live up to a standard of closely following his footsteps.
              One born in the 12th century or even in some Muslim nations or Hindu nations may die or never really understand fully what Jesus was about althought they know of him, evenincapacitated ones. But they can survive armageddon if alive then or come back in the ressurrection when the knowledge of Jehovah only will be taught and his books only will be used.(Isa. 11:9) Then everyone will have an EQUAL chance to decide if they will be righteous or wicked. This is JUDGEMENT DAY ONE THOUSAND YEARS LONG. The love of God is so simple and his plan so great yet not burdensome for those stuck in circumstances where they can’t escape. Even they will get a chance for once like Adam. I love people Jani, I see in my profession some insurmontable circumstances of abuse, that they do good just to go fromm day to day. God loves even the people we human judges call wicked. He will give them a chance to repent and turn around in his decreed JUDGEMENT DAY, not the judgement day that most religious people have decided to set up now. He loves us all as shown by the provision of the ranson. Some will take advantage of it some won’t. Man always rush things. I was reared putting all the scriptures in the wrong time period because of men impatience.

              • Hi Jacqueline,
                You wrote: This is JUDGEMENT DAY ONE THOUSAND YEARS LONG.
                What said the world of God, about the judgement? We must discuss this in the context.
                The Bible shows us that exist a judgement in three (3) acts.
                1. First act – Before the millenium
                2. Second act – In millenium
                3. Third act – After millenium
                Would you agree, or you need Bible verses?

                • Jacqueline

                  Jani are you talking about the judgement of mankind as in the separation of the sheep from the goats and that of John 5:28-30 the resurrection. And Acts 24:15 ‘ there is going to bwe a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous? It is true the righteous will have put themselves a inch ahead and benefit quickly in the millenium as they had faith before death. Br. Peter quoted scriptures that showed that it would be more endurable for unrighteous Sodom and Gommorrah than for those that saw him and hated him. They are going to have to admit that he was the saviour. That might be hard. So I guess I am talking about salvation of all mankind and you might, (I don’t know for sure) are talking about different times in history when certain of men have been judged and punishment isssued. But non of those was unto second death, Gehenna. We see this from the fact God judged and destroyed Sodom, spared an equally rotten city because of Lot but his was to rid the earth then of something that he does not mention.
                  Some theologist feel that the Incas (violence sacrificers of women and children) might have had something divine happen to them, just conjecture maybe.
                  1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth Does whole really mean whole or part?
                  1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV Does it really mean all?
                  Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Will they really be given that decision or are they bound by Adam’s decision and Jesus can’t redeem them and break that stranglehold?
                  Isa 40:5 – “The glory of the LORD shall be revealed, And ALL flesh shall see it together ”
                  Who of the all should we leave out my relatives of centuries ago or someone elses? Sometimes it helps me Jani if I keep it personal to understand God’s mercy.
                  So I know there are judgement periods but all will have a final judgement period in the 1,000 yr judgement day of Jesus after the day of Jehovah of Rev.16:13-16.
                  So, the final judgement is what I refer to, respecting that there are all kinds of judgements meted out in the bible on various people and nations. Ananias and his wife, Miriam, Moses sister. Blessings also, the harlot of jericho, Job etc. But all would have to die none of these blessings or judgements was to Gehenna. Are we on the same page with this, maybe.An armageddon is a judgement on governments and institutions. Individuals however will rise in the millenium and will have to bow before Christ.
                  Zephaniah 3:8-9 (NIV) “Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, “for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them—all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 “Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder.”

                  I am babysitting so I am checking only in between so forgive me for long response time. (:) (:)

                  • Jaqueline, you wrote> Jani are you talking about the judgement of mankind as in the separation of the sheep from the goats and that of John 5:28-30 the resurrection. And Acts 24:15 ‘ there is going to bwe a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous?

                    Yes, I would like to present this parts, according to the Scripture. Remember that we, as the Body of Christ, will be the judges (1Cor 6.1-3)
                    1. Before the millenium –
                    Will be the judgement of of all nations, tribes and persons, according to the Scripture, this will be the judgement of the living persons, in a short time according to Matthew 25 and Revelation Chapters 14, 15, 16
                    2. In millenium –
                    Will be the judgement of all those who will born and live in milleneium, according to Isaiah 11:6,8 and 65:20,23
                    3. After millenium –
                    Will be the judgement of the death, after the general resurrection, according to Revelation 20:5
                    Let’s discuss this, please.

                    • Jacqueline

                      I don’t agree that the body of Christ sits in judgement of the world and other men now before millenium, so I can’t discuss something that holds no truth for me but I will listen to your argument for that. I believe in the Millenium reign of Christ,and that it is one thousand years of Judgement day. I also believe that all will know that Christ has started to do the literal work of resurrection and restoring paradise not just a few. If he has power it will be felt no guessing we will know that reign has begun.
                      (2)I am not hung up on wanting to judge people, I have a softer view but agree that his Bride will judge (providing knowledge and help toward repentance included) angels and men as the bible clearly states.
                      (3) I see nothing in scripture that goes past the great and final judgement when Satan and his angels are loosed. I personally do not speculate to far beyond what is written. That is not to say others can’t be concerned but I deal with the work that is for now, declaring the good news about Christ to others. I don’t really argue doctrine Jani. My reason is that some things are not salvation issues. And allow for other brothers to express and have another opinion. The interest in judging people I will leave to Christ for now for non of his bride class on this earth now is perfect and so will render an imperfect judgement now.

  • Peace J.
    I could agree with this:

    Both the Old and New Testament are Jehovah’s inspired words; the primary source of all Truth.
    Man did not evolve but was created
    Jehovah created his only-begotten Son, Jesus. Jesus created all other things.
    Jesus descended from heaven to earth and was born of Mary as a perfect human man, not as God in flesh.
    God raised Jesus from death in a Spirit body, not in a physical body of flesh.
    The Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active power and force, not a person.
    The Trinity is no where found or taught in the Bible.
    Man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul. The soul ceases to exist after death.
    There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished. ”Hell” is from the same Greek and Hebrew words for “grave,” describing the sleep of death, not eternal torment.

    • Jeff M

      Jani,

      I’ve been busy of late and haven’t been able to join in the discussions here. I am glad, but also surprised that you agree with the following points of discussion.

      The Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active power and force, not a person.
      The Trinity is no where found or taught in the Bible.
      Man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul. The soul ceases to exist after death.
      There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished. ”Hell” is from the same Greek and Hebrew words for “grave,” describing the sleep of death, not eternal torment.

      Now regarding discussion of the differences I have several questions about what you’ve said.

      You said, “The Bible shows us that exist a judgement in three (3) acts.”

      1. First act – Before the millenium

      Jani, who are being judged before the millenium? Scriptures would be key here.

      2. Second act – In millenium

      Jani, who are being judged in the millennium? Who is doing the judging? Again, Scriptures are key here.

      3. Third act – After millenium

      Jani, who will be judged after the millennium? Who will NOT be judged? What Scriptures do you have?

      Jani, do you believe Jesus will come for his saints? Will he return with his saints to judge mankind? What is your opinion? What Scriptures do you have?

      Why do you seperate Revelation from 6:1 forward? How do you interpret Revelation 6:1? This is an interesting view I would like to hear more about.

      Regarding an opportunity for salvation after death, have you heard about or seen the documentary at http://www.hellboundthemovie.com?

      Jeff

      • Hi Jeff,
        I responded to Jacqueline, about that, but I repeat:

        You said, “The Bible shows us that exist a judgement in three (3) acts.” 1. First act – Before the millenium Jani, who are being judged before the millenium? Scriptures would be key here.

        – OK. Before the millenium will be judged all the living people from the end time, according to Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation chapter 14, 15 and 16

        2. Second act – In millenium Jani, who are being judged in the millennium? Who is doing the judging? Again, Scriptures are key here.

        – The Body of Christ will be the judges, according to 1Corinthians 6:1-3. In the millenium will be judged all the people who will born and live there, according to Isaiah 11:1-7, 65:20

        3. Third act – After millenium Jani, who will be judged after the millennium?

        – After millenium will be the general resurrection, according to Revelation 20:5,12-15

        Who will NOT be judged?

        – Only the Body of Christ.

        What Scriptures do you have?

        – Revelation 20:4

        Jani, do you believe Jesus will come for his saints?

        – Yes, I believe this.

        Will he return with his saints to judge mankind?

        – Yes, sure.

        What is your opinion? What Scriptures do you have?

        – Matthew 25:31,32, Revelation 20:4

        Why do you seperate Revelation from 6:1 forward? How do you interpret Revelation 6:1?

        – I believe the events presented after this verse shows us a context for the future.

        This is an interesting view I would like to hear more about. Regarding an opportunity for salvation after death, have you heard about or seen the documentary at http://www.hellboundthemovie.com? Jeff

        No, I never seen this, I try today but unfortunately don’t work my PC. Is an old Pentium Intel III.

        God bless,
        Jani

        • ken

          Jani, in your third act you listed Rev. 20:5…”the rest of the dead didn’t come to life till after the 1,000 Yrs. were ended”, this scriptures is spurious(not part of the original writting)so, there will be no resurrrection at the end,or after, the 1,000 years.

          • Hi Ken,

            There is not in Codex Sinaiticus? Yes, I heard that. But, as a conclusion is very biblical, if you read all the chapter 20. We could talk about this.

            Jani, in your third act you listed Rev. 20:5…”the rest of the dead didn’t come to life till after the 1,000 Yrs. were ended”, this scriptures is spurious(not part of the original writting)so, there will be no resurrrection at the end,or after, the 1,000 years.

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Jani – About 35-40% of the nearly 200 Rev mss. omit the sentence;about half of those 4th-13th century omit it; after that the percentage
              omitting drops rapidly towards zero. The only pre-Constantine evidence is the Revelation commentary by Victorinus of Petau (Petavia):
              manuscripts (mss.) of the commentary omit the sentence, but Jerome a century later says he included it! The good mss. 2053 and 2062 (with
              Aecumenius’ commentary) omit it both times in the text, but the commentary adds it. A later revision of the Aecumenius text also omits
              it. The quality of the ms. evidence is pretty evenly balanced, but wherever there is a demonstrable change, it is towards adding the
              sentence, not omitting it. [The sentence also occurs in several different forms.] I’d have to say that the total evidence suggests that
              the sentence more probably did not originate with the Apostle John. It is omitted in Lamsa (as the Aramaic never included it) as well as
              RVIC-2000; the Anchor Bible also mentions the ms. evidence against the sentence.

              A common view by many Christians, based on Rev. 20:5, is that the resurrection and a quick judgment of mankind will occur at the end of the 1,000 years. The judgment is considered a formality since it is believed that the trembling sinner is judged hell based on his behavior before he died and he is not permitted any further opportunity to repent and be saved.

              Let’s look at the text upon which is based the concept of the quick and final judgment at the end of the 1,000 years.
              Except for this one text, the thrust of scriptures on this topic is for the resurrection and judgment to begin earlier in the Millennium and lasting throughout, the 1,000 years.

              Rev 20:4-6
              Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. – NASV

              Notice that if you remove the phrase, “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” the passage makes more sense. Verse 4 describes the saints who come to life (are resurrected) and reign with Christ. The end of verse 5 says, “This is the first resurrection.” Yes, the resurrection of the saints is the “first resurrection.” If you add back in the phrase, “the rest of the dead…,” those raised after the Saints are then described as the “first resurrection.” This makes no sense. “The rest of the dead” would be a second resurrection, after the Saints are “first” raised. The general resurrection of the world of mankind cannot be described as the “first resurrection.”

              • Hi Peter,
                Thx for the good ms references.
                I agree that is an interpolation.
                But the meaning of this interpolation could be right.
                Let’s resolve some technical problems from Revelation chapter 20, through some questions.
                Brother Peter, what do you believe, about the “age to come” from Matthew 12:32, could be even the millenium from Revelation 20:4?
                Jani

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Jani – Yes I believe it is.

                  • OK. I believe this also. So, we have a great thing in common.
                    Now, here is another question in connection:
                    Do you believe that in the age to come (millenium), will exist possibility to sin, according to Matthew 12:31,32?

                  • Peter you wrote> Yes. Acts 3:22-23

                    OK, we have another great thing in common. Now, another question: Which will be the punishment for sin in the age to come (millenium)?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jani – During the Millennial Age and after, in the “Little Season” (Rev 20:3) mankind will ultimately be subject to “second death” (Rev 20:8-10; 21:8) for incorrigible sin. However, Jehovah is exceedingly patient and mankind will have time to walk up the “highway of holiness” (Isa 35:8) to learn righteousness and reform from their wickedness. Otherwise, what would be the point of the resurrection if people were immediately destroyed for their first sin after awakening, then no one would survive.

                      Actually,mankind will be Judged by Their Future Behavior in God’s Kingdom

                      Rev 20:12 – “the dead were judged according to their works, by the things written in the books.” [Compare – Matt 8:21-22 – “let the dead bury their own dead.” NKJV]

                      John 12:47-48 – “I did not come to judge the world but to save the world… the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” NKJV

                      Rev 22:14 – Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are immoral, murderers, idolaters and liers.

                      Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.“

                      Ps 96:10-13 – “The LORD reigns…He shall judge the peoples righteously… let the earth be glad”

                      Ps 67 – “let the nations be glad and sing for joy! For You shall judge the people righteously”

                      Ps 9:8 – “He shall judge the world in righteousness, And He shall administer judgment for the peoples”

                      Even the Wicked get an Opportunity to Repent in the Kingdom

                      Matt 11:20-24 – it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you… if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

                      Luke 11:32 – The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. NKJV

                      Ezek 16:55, 61,62 – Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state NKJV

                      Isa 60:14 –all those who despised you will bow themselves at the souls of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD. The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – NASV

                      Rev 3:9 – I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan…to come and bow down at your feet”

                    • Peter, just a last reply> We will see. But, repeat, for me is not a problem if I am wrong, cause according to you, I have a second chance. But If you are wrong, and I am right, you will loose everything. My brother, think about this. You are in great danger. I said this in love, to save your soul.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jani – Should our doctrinal conclusions be based on fear?  “Perfect love casts out fear.” (1 John 4:18)

                  • Peter,
                    I could not reply on your post, what is the problem? So, I must put here the answer.
                    I think your citation are out of the context. Anyway, you agree that in millenium the punishment of the sin will be death.
                    Now, let’s return to the general resurrection, presented in Revelation chapter 20. In verse 13 we see three places of the death>
                    1. sea
                    2. death
                    3. hades
                    A question> What will happend after the general resurrection with the death and the hades?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jani,

                      Thanks. My citations are NOT out of context, but I understand how it seems that way if the Bible presents a different point of view than what you had previously decided on.

                      Rev 20:13-14 “13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
                      14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.” ASV

                      Isa 11:9 “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

                      So in the Millennial Kingdom, all the dead of mankind will be raised to life and taught righteousness, when the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters covers the seas. Those who are incorrigible and will ultimately be condemned to “second death” based on their evil deeds.

                      To answer your questions, as Rev 20:14 shows, death and Hades are destroyed. There will be no more dying in Adam.

                      Jer 31:29-30 “29 In those days [when the New Covenant is set up with Mankind] they will not say again, ‘the fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 “But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.”

                    • Peter, you wrote: To answer your questions, as Rev 20:14 shows, death and Hades are destroyed. There will be no more dying in Adam.

                      OK. I agree in this point. But the point is that this event will be at the general resurrection. The context is clear>
                      1.Resurrection
                      2.Judegement
                      3.Destruction

                      All this in the same time.

                      See an early statement, by Justin Martyr
                      “…John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place.”

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jani – Resurrection, judgement and destruction are spread out over 1,000 years and beyond into the Little Season.  Prophecies and parables fulfilled in the past often span centuries or thousands of years.  (I.e. destruction of Tyre (Eek 26), parable of wheat and tares (Matt 13) etc.  A common mistake most Christians make is to think that end time and future prophecies are sudden and quick.  If we learn from slowness of historically fulfilled prophecy, we can better understand the present and future.

                      As we discussed earlier, the expression, “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed” (Rev 30:5) is likely spurious.  It makes no sense for John to call this “the first resurrection.” He is referring to verse 4, the resurrection of the Saints, as the “first resurrection.”

                      2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
                      I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

                      Therefore, the Judgement process begins at Christ’s appearing and lasts 1,000 years (2 Peter 3:7,8)

                      In Acts 4:2 the religious rulers were upset at the disciples preaching the resurrection from the dead.  How we’re the disciple preaching the resurrection from the dead?  It was by speaking of the times of restoration and blessing of all the families of the earth at the time of Jesus return (Acts 3:21-4:2).  So clearly the resurrection is not at the end of the thousand years.

              • Dupin

                That is an interesting analysis of the evidence Bro. Peter.

                i can confirm that the phrase under discussion does not appear in the Greek Sinaitic Manuscript since I have an image of the passage where it should appear in front of me and it isn’t there. Yet it does appear in an image of the Alexandrian Manuscript 100 years later.

                ” It is omitted in Lamsa (as the Aramaic never included it)” I had to chuckle a little as the whole book of Revelation never appeared in the Peshitta text because the churches who relied on that text rejected that book. My copy of Lamsa doesn’t explain that, or where he got his text for the Revelation, though my guess would be the later Philoxenian text which did include Revelation. Still, I would consider the omission of the phrase from that source of significance in spite of its comparative youth as it had a basis somewhere.

          • Jeff M

            Ken,

            I would like you to consider another perspective of Revelation 20:5. I mentioned some of it in the response to Jani in another post.

            The verse reads this way.

            Revelation 20:5 — “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

            The Greek word “lived” here is translated from Strongs#326.

            — Here is the definition of that word —

            326 αναξαω anazao an-ad-zah’-o
            from 303 and 2198; TDNT-2:872,290; {See TDNT 282} v
            AV-be alive again 2, revive 2, live again 1; 5
            1) live again, recover life
            1a) to be restored to a correct life
            1a1) of one who returns to a better moral state
            1b) to revive, regain strength and vigour

            This is the goal of the millenium. The world of mankind will be convicted of their sins when they are raised from the dead to be restored to a correct life, one of a better moral state. They will be revived and will regain their strength and vigor. They will have an opportunity to worship God.

            This is the same thing that happens to the unbelievers who will attack Israel in the last days.

            Isaiah 26:9 “for when the earth experiences your judgments the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

            When God’s judgments through Jesus and his bride will come, then the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness in those days.

            Zechariah 14:16 — “then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.”

        • Peter K. (admin)

          JanI – It is nice to see that you are giving Jeff answers to each of his questions and that you are providing scriptural support for some of your answers. Thanks. Now let us see how Jeff responds.

          • Thank you, Peter. Because sister Jacqueline wrote she don’t want to be a judge, I would like to know how she understand 1Corinthians 6:1-3?

            • Jacqueline

              Hi Jani, I will answer for myself regards 1Cor6:1-3. Judge, examine; I didn’t say I didn’t want to be a judge. I said I WILL NOT JUDGE any man to condemnation now. I, you and everyone else sin and make mistakes our judgement is faulty. This is concerning condemning to Gehenna. We examine, judge or make decisions everyday, but we don’t judge anyone to Everlasting death.
              All men have come into some form of darkness whether Jew, Greek or Gentiles so it is fitting that as regard judging for death it says:
              Romans 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge: for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things.”
              Paul more than once appealed to the law for justice and protection from his enemies.(Acts16:37, 22:25-28, 23:17, 25:10-13, 26:32)
              I understand this to mean disputes among themselves not crimes committed by any. Differences between brothers in the Church. Vs 2, we are being fitted now to judge the world in the future, not now.
              The world order, social, financial, political will be in their hands (Saints)in the future to help uplift mankind to the standards of Jesus in Millenium. It is true we are being prepared now and will be made perfect with Christ in the future.
              Mark 10:35-40 has a story for all that will be with Christ. Wanting to be important and in a position of authority to judge now is why people don’t like religion. Most who want to judge others are often big sinners. Try pointing your finger, there are at least 3 pointing back at any given person. Jani I would rather help my fellowman than condemn him as worthless to eternal death.( Matt 5:22), All present knowledge is incomplete and our reasoning faculties at present imperfect.
              Matt5:28 ALL Power has been given to Jesus at this time. Where Jani does it give you and I the power to Judge to Gehenna? Show me directly a scripture if you will, please.

              Now may I ask you Jani, why do you have such disdain for people Jesus died to save? Why do you want so many to be judged and condemned now without a chance? What has the human race done to you to make you so judgemental? I ask because you seem to be reading the bible with some understanding but it has hardened rather than softened you to see the immense power of sin over mankind. In the spirit of:
              Romans 5:8 “But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
              Yet you by your words say yes, but he can’t cover these people. We need to judge them now and get them out of the way. Forget giving them a chance. I know you aren’t saying the things done in the door to door work of the witnesses is enough for them to make a decision, or are you? Are you saying what you, Br. Peter, Jeff. Ken, Max, me and others on the internet is enough for them to be judged? Who gives you the right to set a standard? As a Christian I ask you Jani what is wrong? You seem to have some knowledge of Jesus. I will wait for your reply.

              • Hi Jacqueline,
                Thx for your reply. So, you want to be a judge, for millenium. Sorry, for I misunderstand your position.
                Regarding your question about the second chance, why they will not have anther chance, I can quot only the Scripture: John 3:16-21
                So, according to this Scripture, people don’t love the light, cause they love the darkness. They don’t want to see their sins.

            • Jacqueline

              Jani also so I don’t seem insensitive to the suffering of the Brothers through what must have been a very hard time I want to say I know there are mean evil people now that do evil things. It is just I am saying Jesus will eventually deal with it under circumstances where he can bring them to repentance. Some may just bow and ask forgiveness for the crimes against humanity perpetrated during the iron curtain days. Down through the ages the Assyrians, the Huns, the Otttoman empire all and more have done things unthinkable as have child molesters, murderers and those with malicious tongues. But, why? The sin born within them from Adam. Some of these people will repent and accept Christ and some won’t in the new world of mankind. So I hope you undertand my questions to you as I have some insight into some of your national experiences. Sincerely in Jesus dear name Jacqueline

              • The second chance we could see in this present time and not for the future. In this present time, in our live, we have a second chance, even more to repent and be righteous. Romans 1:32 shows us, that all people, without exception have the notion of right and wrong, cause of their conscience Romans 2:14,15. That’s why they are without any excuse.
                That is not in connection if they heard or not about Christ. Unrighteous people who ever not heard about Christ, will be judged according to their conscience.

                • Jacqueline

                  Hello Jani, each of us by our experiences in life can sometimes see scripture differently. Like me for instance, because I was made to suffer so from the policies of the present day witnesses, I see the man of lawlessness and a whole lot of other bad phophecies being fulfilled in them. Some of it would not hold up under scrutiny. LOL. If I had not gotten my balance (aided by kindness of the Bible Students) I could have ended up wanting them to be punished and the perpetrators. It could have filled me with so much poison that I could have been consumed. But thanks to Christ I have steadied and leveled out.
                  So, I can see how you see people differently maybe from the reality that they, we, you are all imperfect and captive to this thing, condition called sin and are in need of a redeemer which has already been provide.
                  Hopefully for the sake of all these people that you judge unworthy of this redeeming power, it will rescue them anyway. I appreciate your thoughts. I know a little about the group you were once with and I understand what happened from the fifties to 1990’s. Hopefully many of the victims of the harsh treatment by the government for standing up on policies of the watchtower have healed sufficiently to let their experiences shape, mold and create a new creature for Christ. In Christian love Jacqueline.

                  • Hi J.
                    My feeling comes from the Bible. I am not interested to see people in the lake of fire, so, because I love them, I will urge them to repent and be righteous. If I am wrong or right, we will see in that day in which Christ our Lord, will judge the living and the death.
                    Anyway, if I am wrong, probably I will loose the heavenly calling and the membership in the Body of Christ, but I will have a second chance to life in millenium, but if I am right and you Jacqueline are wrong, you will loose not only the membership in the Body of Christ, but also your life, cause you teach a lie. And I say this according to Revelation 22:15.
                    I suggest read bro. Ray Franz book Crisis of conscience.

                    • Jacqueline

                      Jani hello. I have read Br. Franz books 2-3 times. He settled in my area and my brother knew him well and sat on his committee. I also saw the meetings that he had in your country. No doubt you were there.
                      Br. Franz was not so judgmental and condemning, that’s what I liked about his books, they presented the facts and the LOVE of Christ rather than his harshness.
                      Rev 22:15 will certainly prove true and unrepentant ones deemed like wild roaming dogs unfit to live in the peaceful rule of Christ and go into second death. The time period of most of the scriptures you use Jani is off. You don’t seem to wait on the day of the Lord to see what his ransom can do to reform many of mankind. Scripture shows not all will repent and accept this ransom provisions of gaining life for the first time ever. You mention the fate of you and me, don’t worry just do what you can to tell others and help them understand the Love of God instead of so much negativity.
                      You experiences in life might make you want to see the wicked pay Jani, but remember Jonah and plant. Those are not your people they belong to Jesus and God, like parents they are willing to let their offspring have a chance. Take Care Jani, Jacqueline.
                      PS: Br. Peter gave great scripture support and I agree. Our persecutions and experiences in life can harden us or make us pliable to be used by the Lord either way we still can please him if we wait on the New World in which righteousness will dwell.

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Jani – Romans says they are without excuse, but where does it say God destroys them.  Your child may be without excuse for putting their hand in the cookie jar, but yout don’t kill them for it.

                  Most people never had a first chance, for in past centuries much of the world’s population never even had heard of Jesus (I.e. China, India, Africa, pre Columbus Americas, etc.

                  Two Distinct Classes Saved – Faithful Christians now and the rest of the World in the future earthly kingdom

                  1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth

                  1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.   NKJV

                  Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.   NKJV [An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]

                  Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God  NKJV

                  1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.”  NKJV

                  2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe   NKJV

                  2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

                  Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD,  NKJV

                  Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy  NKJV

                  • We could see the destruction of the unrighteous in many verses, for example Luke 13.1-5. One thing we must keep before our eyes, that the judgement of that people who never heard about Christ and Bible will be taken according to their conscience. All people have a conscience, who lead the people in personal judgement, this is the moral law, which is in every human creature, according to the Bible> Romans 2.14,15

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Jani – In the text you quote, Luke 13:1-5, Jesus said that unless they repented, they will all perish like “those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them.” Jesus did not say that they eternally perished, just that they perished. As a matter of fact, everyone not in heaven, will be awakened from death during the millennial kingdom on earth.

                      Acts 24:15-16 – “there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” NKJV

                      John 5:28-29 – “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will … come forth” NKJV

                      Rom 5:18 “through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life”

                      1 Cor 15:22 – “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” NKJV

                      Romans 2.14,15 says they are without excuse, but where does it say God destroys them eternally? After you have warned your child, they may be without excuse for putting their hand in the cookie jar, but you don’t kill them for it.

                      You are very wrong when you said, “that the judgement of that people who never heard about Christ and Bible will be taken according to their conscience.” Eternal salvation in this life, before death and the millennial kingdom, can only come from directly accepting Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

                      John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

                      Jn 10:9 – “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved”

                      Eph 2:18 – “through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”

                      Acts 4:12 – “there is no other name… among men by which we must be saved.”

                      Rom 5:1-2 – “having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus”

                      John 3:36 – “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” NKJV

        • Jeff M

          Thank you for responding Jani,

          1 and 2) My question to you on this would be whether or not the passages you quote below are applicable to before the millennium or during the millennium. All of the Scriptures I know of speak of the coming of Christ to judge the earth with his saints. These saints are the ones mentioned in Revelation 14:1 (referring back to the deliverers of Obadiah 21), and Jude 14-15.

          Jude 1:
          14 it was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “behold, the lord came with many thousands of his holy ones,
          15 ¶ to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

          The job of these saints are the convict the world of their sin.

          Revelation 20:4 and 1 Corinthians 6:1 states that this will happen during the millenium.

          It appears that on that point we are in agreement.

          3) In regards to Revelation 20:5 I would suggest another thought based on the meaning of the Greek words there.

          Although about 70 manuscripts omit this verse, I think it fits quite nicely in the context.

          “It is not until the second resurrection, the resurrection of the body, that the martyrs shall reign upon the new land, as kings of the land #Revelation 21:24. it is written that the others of the dead lived not until the thousand years are ended. The obvious meaning of the words is that they live as the holy ones have een living during the thousand years; but it is not written that they reign, as well as live. We have no evidence of the unconsciousness of the unfaithful during the thousand years, but the contrary.” (H Browne, John’s Apocalypse.)

          Revelation 20:4  —  “And they lived” kai ezeesan  —  First aorist active indicative of zaoo . If the ingressive aorist, it means “came to life” or “lived again” as in #Revelation 2:8 and so as to #Revelation 20:5. If it is the constative aorist here and in #Revelation 20:5, then it could mean increased spiritual life. See #John 5:21-29 for the double sense of life and death (now literal, now spiritual) precisely as we have the second death in #Revelation 2:11; 20:6,14.” (from Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

          To affirm that this should be interpreted figuratively as such I submit —

          “But are we bound to thus understand literally the ‘lived’ of #Revelation 20:4 and the ‘lived not’ of #Revelation 20:5? There are two or three considerations which will be enough to show that they need not be understood thus. (1) The word ‘to live’ is used about sixteen times in the Apocalypse. on nine of these it is applied to the eternal life of God the Father or God the Son; it is twice used in the passage before us (#Revelation 20:4-5). of the remaining five occasions where the word is used, it is four times employed in what can scarcely be other than a figurative sense (#Revelation 3:1 7:17 13:14 19:20  —  some might doubt the figurative use in this last passage), butonly once is literal (#Revelation 16;3). (2) There will be faithless people during the millennium  —  the nations to be deceived (#Revelation 20:8). Are we then to picture saints with glorified resurrection bodies living on the earth, which at the same time is tenanted by men and women still in the natural body? (3) There is a resurrection, which surely is the second resurrection, described in #Revelation 20:12-13: this last is a general resurrection of the dead, small and great. There seems no adequate reason to affirm that this first resurrection, then must be physical. Our notions of life and death are so circumscribed by the geography of earth, that we seldom give the word ‘life’ in our thoughts its true richness and fulness of meaning. We fail to remember that the faithful ones who life, because Christ lives, have the promise of the life that now is, as well as that which is to come; we forget that God is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Charles John Ellicott New Testament Commentary)

          According to this, the unrighteous are restored to a moral existence in the millennium.

          — Regarding the coming of Jesus FOR and WITH his saints.

          Jani, do you believe Jesus will come for his saints?

          – Yes, I believe this.

          Will he return with his saints to judge mankind?

          – Yes, sure.

          Can both of these happen at the SAME time? Can Jesus come FOR his saints, and WITH his saints at the same exact time?

          I am still interested in your opinion on Revelation 6:1 forward . . .

          God bless Jani.

          Thank you for your time.

          • Jeff,
            Act 1, before the millenium. Lord Jesus will judged the evil, unrighteous and the righteous living people, in the end time. Judging the evil people, we could understand their destruction, according to Revelation 2:26-29. Milliards will die as unrighteous, according to the book of Revelation, chapter 14, 14, 16.

            Act 2, in millenium we could see only that people who were judged as righteous in act 1.
            This righteous people will have many children, and the earth will be repopulated with a new population, who will be judged like in Moses time, by Christ and His Body. Those who will sinned in millenium, will be cut off from the existence.
            Act 3, after millenium, I could see here the expression of “last day” and a general resurrection.
            I see two resurrection, the first, for the Christ’s saints and a general resurrection, for all man ever lived.

            According to the Bible, Lord Jesus come for booth things, to gather the saints and for judgement of the word.

            For Revelation 6:1 I believe in that way, that we are before this great events. Terrible things will happened. As in the Noah’s time the flood destroyed that human worldly system, in the end time, the fire will destroy this human worldly system. All evil will perish. And a new system will come in the existence.

            • Jeff M

              Jani. I have a difficult time seeing what you are saying from a Scriptural perspective. in regards to the unbelievers at the time of the return of Christ, did you see my comments to you regarding Zechariah 12 and 14 which specifically mentions the unbelieving Jews (and Gentiles who attacked them) who will go up from year to year to Jerusalem to worship? This context speaks specifically of unbelievers who lived on AFTER the return of Christ, rather than of any who would be born in a future time.

              Jani, you stated that you see a resurrection after the millennium. You quoted one Scripture on that (Revelation 20:5) which I replied to already with the literal meaning from the Greek on that passage.

              Do you have any other Scriptures that would suggest this?

              I try to be careful when there is only one Scripture on a topic, especially when the Scripture could have another interpretation.

              You said, “the fire will destroy this human worldly system. All evil will perish. And a new system will come in the existence.” The context from Zechariah would appear to contradict such a statement.

              Have you considered Malachi 3 AND 4?

              While Malachi 4:1 states, “for behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch”, we know that the fire that is mentioned is defined in the context (Malachi 3:2-4) as a purification, rather than a death wish…

              “Who can endure the day of his coming? and who can stand when he appears? for he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. he will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. then the offering of judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.”

              • Jeff,
                Zechariah 12 and 14 is a very hard prophecy. In specially 14:2. How do you understand this? All spiritual? And have a parallel in the book of Revelation? If yes, which text? In Malachi also, all is spiritual? I am afraid not, and in both text shows us shows us how will perish the enemy of God’s people. But who is God’s people?

                • Jeff M

                  I believe this is speaking of Israel, but this interpretation isn’t important as recognizing the point of the context.

                  Regardless of who this is, whoever these people of Judah are, they are not believers.

                  Without interpreting who these folks are, we can see clearly that in the context of these chapters the spirit is poured out on them after the coming of Christ. It is at that point that these folks will recognize Messiah and mourn for him. It is at this point that they begin to worship him. It is also at this same point that the unbelieving nations around this unbelieving Jerusalem will also recognize the Jewish Messiah and go up from year to year to worship the king in Jerusalem.

                  This context is one of the recent discussions I’ve had with Max on this forum. One of the difficulties that I have regarding the Jehovah’s Witness explanation of these chapters is that they identify themselves (or rather their view of the 144,000) as Israel in this context. Their opinion is that all nations will attack them in the last days (which sounds rather paranoid to me), but when this happens, all of those nations will be destroyed and only the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses will remain.

                  This however does not answer the context either, as it clearly shows the unbelieving ones who had attacked Israel will have an opportunity to worship in Spirit and truth after the coming of Christ. I shared with Max that the context clearly shows here that if you identify yourself as Israel in the context before the coming of the nations to attack Jeruslem, and at the time of the coming of Jesus with his saints, then you are identifying yourself as a group that does not believe in Jesus and is unbelieving. Unfortunately the discussion never completed, and Max and I are still discussing other subjects here (and very nicely I might add!).

                  What marvelous grace does it show that God is willing to give all an opportunity to serve him, regardless if they believe before the coming of Christ with his Saints or not!

                  • Hi, Jeff,
                    I am not with JW’s. We are a free ecclesia, and between us are some differences. But I agree that in the End Time, all nations will attack the true christians. If this sound rather paranoid or not, your problem. And we will se if this will be or not, when the time will come.

                    • Jeff M

                      Jani,

                      My wife is from Targu Mures Romania. While in Romania we met with some that called themselves True Faith Jehovah’s Witnesses. Have you associated with that group at all?

                    • Jeff M

                      Jani,

                      The contexts of Zechariah 12 and 14 are regarding unbelieving nations who attack an unbelieving Israel (spiritual or not).

                      The end result of these contexts is that both unbelieving groups, Israel and the Gentiles, become believing after this terrible battle.

  • Mark Close

    That should have read: Wolves in sheep’s clothing. 8)

    • Sharon

      I’m so pleased to see your comments, Mark. And had to chuckle at you correcting “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” I would’ve have made a much worse error, I’m sure. I’m clumsy with my words sometimes. And, because of that will not have the best ability to answer your challenge. However, I wanted to say a few things. You will find that most of us here are ex or current JWs. And since you are “…not a Witness but I know quite a bit about them…”, you have not lived with the total control the society asserts over it’s members. You have not seen families torn apart because one of them has done something (or accused and not proven) that the society has accused them of. You have not seen the pedophilia that is rampant in some congregations that has been hidden behind the guise of “Jehovah’s organization.” You have not been looked down on if you did not get a quota of door to door hours. The point is you have NOT walked in our shoes.

      As for us having “separated themselves from the main body,” the Watchtower Organization split off from the Bible Students who the administrators of this site are. In the late 1800s Pastor Charles Taze Russell started bible study groups to research and study the bible. He was a prominent speaker and pastor around the USA and also traveled around the world. He wrote 7 main volumes of his understanding of the scriptures called the Studies in the Scriptures and The Tabernacle Shadows. When he passed away a usurper named Rutherford took over his publishing called the Watch Tower (which is now spelled as one word not two) and began to slowly change the original teachings of Pastor Russell. As it turned out there were many who stayed with those original teachings of Pastor Russell, the Bible Students, and others who followed Judge Rutherford, Jehovah’s Witnesses.

      The Watchtower Organization has done everything it can to hide those facts. There are JWs who think the Bible Students don’t even exist. They are shocked and amazed when they find out.

      Someone smarter than me, dear Mark, will answer you much better. But rest assured we DO KNOW all about the organization of the Watchtower today. We DO consider JWs our brothers and sisters.

      • Mark Close

        Thank you both for your responses.
        As I said, I am not a Witness but my wife (who passed away 4 years ago)was and for over 30 years.

        I did study with her and the ‘Friends’ and attended the meetings for quite a few years myself.

        I can only surmise that those of you who were ‘shocked’ and/or ‘abused’ by the elders at the halls you attended .. well I’d say that those halls had been infiltrated by the wolves!?(a simplification of a serious problem)

        I know of one hall in my former home town that had to be shut down entirely by the society it got so bad.

        I can honestly say that the hall that my wife and I attended NEVER experienced anything by the likes of what has been described here!

        Remember .. Jehovah’s Witnesses are imperfect people and as such .. imperfection is to be expected within the congregation.

        I challenge you to tell me of ONE faith where this is not so?

        Say what you will but the Truth was brought into this former atheists life by the brothers and sisters out of Bethel and for that, until I see more than written criticism in a forum as evidence of ‘pedophilia’, badgering and other (not so nice actions), I will continue to support Jehovah’s organization.

        It is so easy to find criticism of the Brothers and Sisters.

        All you have to do is do a Google search and Just About Every link to the words Jehovah’s Witnesses brings pages and pages of derision by ‘so called’ Former witnesses!

        I can’t help but to see this site as another .. “We Love Jehovah .. But, Let Us Tell You Why They Are A Bad Or Very Misled People” forum.

        If I wanted that .. As I said, I can find hundreds, if not Thousands of discussion boards who are competing for members!

        To be fair .. Some here may be of good intentions and really want to ‘enlighten’ us blinded by the truth types and because of that I’ll stick around a while ‘but’ (isn’t there always a but? lol) ‘but’ I warn you, I Am educated in the truth and will not just sit idly by and not speak my piece!
        (As evidenced by this ‘long winded’ posting) 8)

        Again, Thank You for your responses and for allowing mine.

        Mark

        (stones and glass houses is not within scripture but it sounds good) 8(

        • Jacqueline

          Hi Mark Close, thanks for commenting. You ask to see more than a written summation of pedophilia. Here is a website for you to see a visual http://www.silentlambs (please click on TV news links). I would put you in shock if I revealed info I have on actual victims and I actual have looked perpetrator and victim in the face. The perpetrators of pedophilia are however not like most ordinary people. Most if not all admit their deeds, only skeptics deny such a global problem. The government has stepped in to halt the skeptic and act in God’s authority, as a superior authority from the book of Romans. Most police, therapist, perpetrators and victims thankfully don’t feel as you do, needing further proof. Thru therapist, the governmental authority and God they are getting relief.
          I am glad as an atheist you have turned to God. This is a good thing.
          May I ask, what prompted your reviewing of this site? I admit it is a different type of Bible Student site. It has a very unique purpose, to help the various witnesses as they attempt to heal and get freedom and liberty in Christ. I am so glad you have not had the experiences of most of the people on this site. But it is for them. To deny them or make them feel bad about expressing their sorrow will be giving in to satan who wishes to destroy the spirit of honest hearted peersons.
          Because you, a non witness, have not a bad experience means simply that, YOU have not. It however has absolutely nothing to do with or reflect on the experiences of others. We are not here trying to destroy your faith in the organization but to instead build your faith in Christ to the glory of Jehovah. Your negative comments however should not make the ones for which this site is provided STAND DOWN.
          I sincerely hope they will continue to tell their experiences as this will help them to heal, because we listened. Your somewhat not in the thick of things approach when you were a spouse of a witness gives you no insight into the witness world at all. I and those that are witnesses now, would deal with you in quite a different manner. Also the brothers would not in any way mis-treat the wife of an unbeliever as they know you would have reacted. So while we appreciate your imput it does not reflect on the experiences of a witness that has been one for some time. Let us know if you will why you have taken to the internet in search of Christian freedom.
          Thank you, Jacqueline
          PS: Mark if you seee scores of pages speaking negatively about the organization of the witnesses, wouldn’t a prudent man ask why? The organization got in bed with the United Nations as an NGO and that my friend is adultery. But I don’t expect you to understand the deep things of the organization because as you said a “Bethelite” has helped you. I have many family there and have been and slept there many times, that my friend is a whole other website. But it doesn’t matter because Jesus is helping his sheep heal now and in the future. Shortly all of mankind that have ever lived, will see the glory of God reflected in his King Christ Jesus and the anointed Bride class as they bring the many to righteousness.
          Hopefully Mark the organization will not become a problem for you. Due to the many pages of discontent on the web, maybe they will change and you will have only continued pleasant thoughts. One has to ask why would so many people have so many negative thoughts about the only organization on the face of the earth that God talks too? Remember the phrase if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck etc.
          We are not trying to make your devotion to the organization any less. You to have freedom and liberty in Christ. You say you are outspoken and won’t hold back, the conversation will be welcomed.

      • Mark Close

        Oh

        Yes I have seen Brothers ‘and’ Sisters dis=fellowshipped for a myriad of reasons.

        One of them was a dear friend and an Anointed brother.

        All of them admitted to their ‘indiscretions’ and All of them were eventually brought back into the fold.

        (No family split-ups either)

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Mark Close – Thanks for commenting.  Sharon responded well, but I will add to her comments.

      First let me say that we love our brothers and sisters in the Jehovah’s Witness Organization.  We encourage them to share their point of view and even disagree with us on this website, providing their reasons from scripture.  We are trying to encourage them to remember the early Watchtower days when open dialogue and Christian love and liberty were promoted.

      We openly discuss issues where we are both in agreement or disagreement.  Please do not take constructive criticism as an attack.  If we are wrong, we encourage you to correct us with your reason.

      Proverbs 27:6 says, ” Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.” NASV

      If you feel the advice f given to Monica was not accurate, then please fell free to correct us.

      Please note that this Is not an attack JW site. This is a site for open discussion without fear.

  • Mark Close

    I am leery of a site that calls itself ‘Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ and then says that they have separated themselves from the main body?

    I also see some so-called ‘former’ Witnesses who worry that what they ‘used’ to spread as a message was all in error?

    I am not a Witness but I know quite a bit about them and I see a lot of ‘stuff’ on here that ‘Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ would be ashamed to allow.

    As an example: “Monica, don’t despair, no matter what you do as a witness it will never be enough. That is an organization Monica with quotas, goals etc. (listen to CO talk on how cong is doing). Reports are turned in like a sales team. A report card or publisher record card is kept that determines how well you are doing in the corporation. You will be pushed to place more magazines etc and bring in more people. Not to serve God but to keep the money flowing.”

    Sheep in Wolves clothing?

    Feel free to prove me in error.

  • Ken

    Hello David Hall,It turns out that the parable Jesus gave about about the rich man and lazerus was directed to the pharasees. He used the “firery hell” illustration because that what the pharasees believed about the after life. Please view the link I’ve provided….. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html

  • humbleman

    Hi Ari Matthew davis. you said . the bible says the dead are conscious of nothing,so why should god resurect a person from unconscious death simply to kill him and send him back to unconsciousness?

    The bible says All will be resurrected john 5 v 28-29. so why would God bring someone out of hell judge them and then send them back to hell ?

    Jesus is the savior of all men 1 timothy 4 v 10 he was ransom for ALL. now is the time for the called out ones who will make up the priesthood 1 peter 2 v 9. in the age to come ( judgment day ) this holy nation of priest ( bride of christ) will help Jesus lead people to the water of life Revelation 22 v 17 isaiah 55 v 1. Bro humbleman

  • ari matthew davies

    I was raised as one of jehovahs wittneses. I began reading the bible for myself without the aid of any manmade litterature I always pray for gods holy spirit to tell me what the scriptures mean..as a person raised by j.ws I now I a serious concern that I may have preached a wrongfull doctorine about the nonexistance of hell, after reading the bible I am firmly convicted that for those that delibratly regect the grace and sacrafice of jesus their just may be a judgement in store for them far worse than simple anihilation of the thing called a soul..the bible says dont fear those that can kill the body but fear him that after he has killed you can send you to hell. the bible says the dead are conscious of nothing,so why should god resurect a person from unconscious death simply to kill him and send him back to unconsciousness? no! in my opinion their is a unpleasent place that god can awaken you from death to go to.and if their is could I not be bloodguilty for haveing preached that no punishment other that eternal unconsciouness exists? I sure would like to hear some christian opinions on the matter.. thanks

    • Hi Ari Matthews, I was also a JW for 49 years, I was raised in it and my wife was born into it and was released after 52 years.

      Since getting out I have studied Bible theology and have also come to accept that Yeshua spoke more about Hell than he did Heaven. Obviously you will know the Greek word Gehenna symbolised a place of fire and brimstone…Yeshua also gave the Parable of the Rich Man and Lasarus…if it did not exist why would he describe it in a Parable? I could never understand the JW reasoning about that Parable.

      However I cannot accept the ‘hardline’ Calvinist teaching that all those who do not accept Jesus Christ before they die, go straight to Hell…Also I cannot accept his Vile teaching that Almighty God chose his Elect before the founding of the World and that the rest cannot do anything about it, as they are Born to go to Hell. I beleive we all have a choice to respond to the Gospel.

      No wonder Russell hated that teaching and so do I. However God is not to be Mocked and he has a place prepared for the Demon hordes and if Humans choose to ignore the Lord and even blaspheme and preach that he does not exist, then they will go to Hell as well.

      Whatever else awaits those who do not accept Yeshua as Lord and King, then that is for the Lord to know.

      By the way Ari do not take on the Guilt of the WT, as you did not know all the facts then..as 1 John tells us that if we confess our Sins before God he will forgive us there and then.

      None of us are Holy in ourselves as we are like Filthy Rags…but Yeshua came along and washed us clean and placed a robe upon us and therefore we can stand before the Almighty God as righteous. Only through the precious blood of Yeshua.

      Bless you

      David

  • Dee-Dee Sayar

    I don’t believe there is gonna be a God who will destroy innocent people as me, even though I’m no longer an active JW today. I left because I couldn’t stand all the pressure I was getting from the people and I got a question — why is going to destroy me for not being a JW any longer? Why is my family going to be destroyed at Armageddon because they’re not JWs either? How come little children are told to respect their elders and parents, yet despise of the worldly children who are their age and did no harm? I’m not attacking anyone here, I just want some answers to my questions because I think JWs are selfish people who don’t care about one another, except for themselves!

    • Jacqueline

      Hi Dee Dee and welcome to the forum. You have some great questions and it does not depict a God of love to do those things. Here is an article on this site about Armageddon. The witnesses governingbody changed what the bible realy sayts about armageddon. It is not Judgement day. Sodom and Gomorrah was actually destroyed by Jehovah but they gfet a ressurrection as Jesus stated. Judgement day id 1000 yrs long and most of the scriptures that the governingbody applies to armageddon and now have fulfillment in the New World or 1000yr reign of Christ. Read this then let’s dialogue here with others. Pick the one that interest you and read it first okay? http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/armageddon-2/ Take care Dee-Dee and remember Jesus ransom covers all of Adam’s offspring that have ever lived and he loves little children Exekial 38: shows children do not pay for the sins of parents or vice versa. It is about control to create a Hellfire situation with armageddon to make people obey them. Take Care we will wait for your next comment.

    • Ken

      Speaking of armageddon,I recently looked up the subject in the JW “reasoning from the scriptures” book, on page 46 under the subheading “Who or what will be destroyed at armageddon”, they quote Rev. 21:8 which says in part “cowards, fornicators,liars, etc;” will be thrown into the lake of fire(2nd death). The problem is that they’re using this scripture as if it applies to the armageddon time frame,however, if you read the whole chapter of Rev. 21 you’ll see that it applies AT THE END OF THE 1,000 year millenium!

      • Jacqueline

        Ken, that’s the problem. In order to understand the Bible a person has to slot the scripture in the right time period. The world that was (Noah and before), the world now and the world that is to come. This is a link to the http://www.chicagobible.org bookstore site: http://chicagobible.org/book-store.html?page=shop.browse&category_id=2 It has the little small booklet that says “how to study the bible and have it make sense” it is just .15 cents for any wanting to order or receive it free. It should be sent to the governingbody. Most of the scriptures on Armageddon and now are future. World conversion with the preaching work, that is wrong for now. We teach, preach and baptized to tell about Jesus and make Christian followers but all will have to be judged for 1000yrs. None will die forever for the sin of Adam. So POs37:9-11 is in the future 1000 yrs reign. Almost all of their endtime scriptures are in the future. Also on that link are other small booklets if ones want to order by topic.

        • Ken

          I have that booklet Jacqueline….it’s really excellent! It’s one of my favorite ones to use in the witness work.

          • Jeff M.

            I’ll have to use my last initial since another Jeff has appeared here at the board now.

            A new booklet is being published and should be available at the General Convention in Johnstown, PA. I have a preliminary PDF of it now and it appears it will be a very timely issue.

            The title is something to do with Salvation Through Armageddon.

            Br. George Tabac is giving a public talk at the General Convention on this topic. Several newspaper ads in the area have been published through this week as well as other advertising means. It’ll be interesting to see how many will come!

            • Jeff M.

              I forgot to add…thankfully the Scriptures do not teach one must be a Jehovah’s Witness or even a Bible Student to be saved in Armageddon!

    • ZENODotus

      I can relate to what you are saying Dee-Dee… Jehovah’s witnesses even believe that children are the sole responsibility of the parents, and that they die at armageddon if their parents are not transformed to Jehovah’s witnesses… Imagine a just God, destroying at ransom!
      The bible clearly states that Adam died for all, because all sin, but that jesus gave his life for all, so we could live. (1 Cor 15:22)…

      Jesus said that his yoke is easy and his burden light (Mat 11:30)… And now you state that you snapped under pressure… Is that a light burden? No, it is not, moreover, you are not the only Jehovah’s witness full of stress for the works they lay unto men, but no works can save you, only the mercy of God and of what Jesus has done can do that.

      Read about the issue chapter 6 of the first volume of the studies in the scriptures… Pastor Russell stated that in no way that can be called good news, and I totally agree; Jesus brought good news, how good is it when you say: “if you don’t believe what I believe you will be destroyed?”

      God is love! (1 John 4:8)

      • Jacqueline

        Br. ZenoDotus, Ken , I might be missing in action as I will start to travel early Friday and today and tomorrow I am clearing up patients and getting ready to leave for the week convention. So if you see something that need a reply please along with the other Brothers feel free to answer right away. I will see all at the convention on adobe connect.
        Oh, by the way Ken did I mention I will get baptized at this convention. I feel my baptism at 12yrs old was like John’s baptism. I did not know fully the Christ. Now I want to let him know I am at his service for whatever purpose he wants me to serve in.

        • ZENODotus

          Hey sis Jacqueline… Really wish you a great time! By the way, maybe it’s on here somewhere, then i missed it, but do you have an address to the connection? Really would like to attend to the adobe connect.

        • Ken

          Jacqueline, yes I heard you and Sharon are getting baptized together….that’s wonderful!!!When I was baptized as a JW it was back in the early 70’s…..before they started baptizing “in association with God’s organization”,so,at this time, I see no real need to get baptized again…what do you think?

          • Jacqueline

            Now I have internet Ken. As I was saying like John’s baptism, I knew nothing really about the Christ and the impact of the ransom on mankind. I got baptized in 1960 but now as I look back my father was DF because of the blood issue and my mother had butted heads with them and was DF’d also at my baptism. She and I met with the little small group who I now know were her friends the Bible Students. We were under segregation and Jim Crow Laws so the society could not infiltrate until they trained Circuit overseers that were black to go out. This took time and that is why I was reared with studies in the scriptures and with many with the higher calling. The men that baptized me were in the power of the organization that had started to develop even then. I knew not Christ like I have come to know him now. I never presented myself to run for the upward calling as I was taught that it was closed out in 1931. Many in my congregation stopped taking the emblems although they were from 1908 etc because the org came in one day and appointed a company servant who was 35yrs old. He just died 1yr ago. Those men could not baptize me into Christ as they knew him not.
            Acts 19:3-5 Paul in Ephesus found twelve disciples: “Then how were you baptized?” he asked. “With John’s baptism,” they replied. 4″John’s baptism,” said Paul, “was a baptism of repentance; but he insisted that the people should believe in the one that was to come after him- in other words Jesus.” 5 When they heard this they were baptizrd in the name of the Lord Jesus,’.
            I wanted to vacation pioneer so I had to be baptized to do so. Upon reviewing what my motives were to conform to the 100hrs, 33 backcalls, 100magazines to be a good acceptable publisher of the watchtower magazines. IT WAS NOT ABOUT CHRIST JESUS, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM AS HE WAS NOT MENTIONED. I need to get baptized in the name of Jesus. Many may not feel this way but I have gone in prayer with the father and holy spirit enjoins and moves, imposes me to do this because now I see and accept the will of God as best my mature adult mind can. I don’t believe in infant or child baptism. Having reared children I understand why Jewish boys presented themselves at 30. My three sons were baptized because “pioneer McGhee” threatened and pushed every child in the cong 9yrs and above if they wanted to carry mikes or do anything in the cong. None of my sons had any idea what they were getting into. Their father didn’t want it to happen as he had been an elder and knew way back then that the org. was corrupt but the CO talked against him. So I want to run for the upward call of Christ and hope I can make it or any position in his service during the 1000yr reign and beyond. I have spent my whole life in training for this day, I finally know or have become known by Christ. 1John 3 is also a great scriptural account I considered.

            • Ken

              Jacqueline, you have a very interesting background….I remember the terms “back calls” and “vacation pioneer” from back in the day:)I also remember how so many of us young people were “pushed” into getting baptized.You bring up a good point about proper baptism…maybe I should pray to see if I need to get rebaptized? Sounds like you’re not really sure about what your hope is….have you asled God to tell you?

  • hi it’s monica.I wanted to ask,i was reading, that the wicked will be desroyed,but not first without a full opportunity to follow christ.So does that mean that as long as when the end comes we will still have a chance to make the right choice to either serve jesus and go with him or make the wrong choice and continue to do worldly things?I am so hard tyring to do what jesus wants it’s just a struggle.I feel as long as i keep god close to my heart and tyr to keep my faith and hope,i’ll be fine.

    • Jacqueline

      Monica, don’t despair, no matter what you do as a witness it will never be enough. That is an organization Monica with quotas, goals etc. (listen to CO talk on how cong is doing). Reports are turned in like a sales team. A report card or publisher record card is kept that determines how well you are doing in the corporation. You will be pushed to place more magazines etc and bring in more people. Not to serve God but to keep the money flowing. More buildings are being sold and the society just lost a $20million lawsuit. It is a corporation like Newsweek, Ford motores Enron, it just uses God as a catolyst or moving force. Stop and think for a minute, what you are reading in proverbs has absolutely nothing in it about an earthly organization.
      Jesus’ ransom can cover any sin that you committed every day. Read the article here that answers your questions: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/ransom-answers/ there are a few listed it contains scriptural support. Also if Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins can be covered and they be ressurrected, surely you and I can get forgiveness everyday. Matt 12:23,24 as you see Sodom and Gommorrah will be there on Judgement day of 1,000yrs. Monica, have you killed any Christians today? Well Paul did and he will be in heaven because he repented and the blood of the Christ covered his sin. David took a man’s wife and had him killed to cover the baby that resulkted. Have you done that? David was a friend of God, why, because he repented (but his sin haunted his household until his death and beyond, so sometimes there are consequences for what we do.) But it is not divine judgement to Gehenna. The governingbody knows that hellfire controlls the masses in most of Christendom. They know there is not burning hell but they use armageddon in the same way. But nowhere in the bible will you see armageddon as judgement day and little children going in sinkholes on their bikes like depicted in the paradise book. Those pictures are from the deranged mind of men loving power over people. Waiting for a reply.

    • Dupin

      In answer to the Question Monica:

      What is meant is that during the phase of the thousand year reign of Christ where his government is the only one all mankind, both those who survive the coming end of this world and those resurrected into it will have the full opportunity to choose for themselves to serve God…or not.

      All mankind but for the 144,000 and the great company will either survive the fall of this world into that wonderful kingdom or be resurrected into it. The point being that all will get that chance without exception. It is similar to the teaching of the Watchtower though there are some important differences in the details which i don’t really have the room to go into.

      As Jacqueline points out serving an organization won’t get you into that part of the kingdom. You get there one way or another by default, unless you accept the only call being held out to mankind right now and receive the privilege of running in the race of the heavenly calling. That’s the only call held out in the Gospel Age.

  • Joseph

    Hi,
    I was reading this verse in Isa 41:4-
    I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same.”
    and similar words found in-
    Rev 1:17 “And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last,”
    are these both references to Jehovah and if so what does it mean when we read “and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.”
    Is this a reference to Peter in Matthew 16:18,19?
    thanks
    Matthew

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Matthew / Joseph – The title “First and Last” can apply to both Jesus and Jehovah. Sharing of titles doesn’t make different people the same entity or substance. For Example, both Dick Durbin and Mark Kirk are called “the Senator from Illinois,” yet they are two different people, each composed of different substance.

      Jehovah is “First and Last” in that there is none before him or after him in power and authority. Jesus can be said to be “First and Last” as well since Jehovah has chosen to share his authority and power with Jesus.

      Matt 28:18, “”All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”

      1 Cor 15:27 “For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him.”

      So all things are subject to Jesus and under His authority. Yet, Jehovah of course is excepted (the exception). Jesus is the Logos, Word, mouthpiece or spokesperson for Jehovah. He stands as representing Jehovah.

      1 Cor 15:24, “then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father”

      In the end, Jesus returns the whole kingdom back to Jehovah’s control for his final Judgment of the restored humanity on Paradise Earth.

      Another interpretation of “First and Last” is that Jesus is the First and Last direct creation of Jehovah. Either interpretation works and I am inclined to believe that both meanings are intended for Jesus.

      I do not think that the KEYS of Hades and Death in Rev 1:18 is not the same as the GATES of Hell in Matt 16:18, nor the KEYS to the kingdom the in Matt 16:19.

      The Apostle Peter’s name is the Greek word “Petros,” which means a piece of rock. However, the word “Rock” in Matt 16:18 is the Greek word “Petra” and it signifies a mass of rock. Therefore, Peter was one of the many rocks or living stones who, with others, would be built upon this great foundation truth that Jesus was “the Christ” ( Matt 18: 16, 20), the Church’s one foundation (1 Cor 3:11). Peter confirms this application when he speaks of the true children of God as living stones for God’s temple, built upon Christ as the great foundation. 1 Pet. 2:4-5

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