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Anointed Talk

Welcome all Anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who would like to talk with you!

Anointed Talk is a place for the Anointed of Jehovah’s Witnesses to talk to each other and for others of us to get a chance to talk to you.  And why not?  We have been told that no one else is listening to you.  Is this true?   The The Watchtower, 5/15/00, p. 11 says, “anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand…”  (See complete quote below).  Yet to what avail is this special insight?  Does the Governing Body care what the Anointed have to say?  Do they ask for the opinion and spiritual insight of the anointed?  Sadly, we are getting reports from Anointed JWs, indicating they are being disrespected, ridiculed and made fun of.  They tell us that they are even being discouraged from partaking of the memorial.  Is it true that the elders and others just don’t believe that those who claim they are anointed really are?  That they do not respect insights of those claiming to be anointed?  Are the anointed who express a different point of view labeled an Apostate?  Is what we are hearing true?  Is this the norm or just unusual examples coming our way?

Why doesn’t the Governing Body consult the anointed?  Why aren’t they interested in their opinion?  Why is the Watchtower writing department adding more writers that are not anointed?  Are the Anointed a perceived threat to the power structure that must be diminished?  After all, shouldn’t JWs being looking to the anointed for spiritual guidance as opposed to Elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers?  Is the JW power structure trying to minimize and belittle their influence?  Is this really all just about power and who is in control?

We are not trying to incite the Anointed to rise up and rebel and fight the system.  The Lord’s anointed are a humble and meek people.  Yet we understand that if anyone expresses a difference of opinion, whether anointed or not, they are in danger of being labeled an apostate.   So, how then can the anointed be in any position to provide spiritual insights.  If it is only to tell everyone else to follow the organization, then couldn’t any JW member do that?  So then of what value are the anointed in the JW Organization?  It only seems to make sense that elders and leaders in the JW organization would desire, in humility, to look to the anointed for spiritual guidance.

What do you think?  What is really going on.  Let us know what you think.  This is a place to talk.  We want to hear from everyone, but especially from the anointed ones, whether presently JWs or whether you have been driven out of the organization.  Please enlighten us and tell us the truth of what is happening.  Here you can talk to each other and help each other out.

Full quote:  “Daniel 12:4 states: “As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Much of what Daniel wrote was made secret and sealed up to human understanding for centuries. But what about today?

6 In this time of the end, many faithful Christians have ‘roved about’ in the pages of God’s Word, the Bible. The result? With Jehovah’s blessing on their efforts, true knowledge has become abundant. For instance, anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand that Jesus Christ became heavenly King in the year 1914. In keeping with the apostle’s words recorded at 2 Peter 1:19-21, such anointed ones and their loyal companions are ‘paying attention to the prophetic word’ and are absolutely certain that this is the time of the end.” – “The Watchtower, 5/15/00, p. 11.

715 comments to Anointed Talk

  • traveler

    Hi Jacqueline, Sorry this has taken so long but we are editing our writings and wanted to finish the section on resurrection before answering. This answer is a two part one mainly to you and a section from our writings on transfer and resurrection. Yep long for some, forewarned they will be spared.

    As we’ve said before if you keep in mind the overview of reality, i.e., God has influence over all in the beginning, meaning his Kingdom is over all. kingdom means range of influence. Next the fall of angels and mankind (question is asked about God’s sovereignty) who are then removed from God’s Kingdom, (note capital K). Next the process of return through his son and his kingdom (small case k) over heaven and earth until all is again right and under the original (K)ingdom of God. It makes it easier to put things in the right order.
    This scripture alone should show why capital and lower case k is necessary and appropriate.

    (1 Corinthians 15:27, 28) . . .For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    Another point that could be made here is the often quoted but misunderstood scripture relating to kingdom at Matthew 6:9, 10.

    (Matthew 6:9, 10) . . .“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. . .

    Knowing that kingdom means range of influence, we can see that in the case of the Nation of Israel, there were only a few under the influence of Yahweh. These could no longer make progress drawing closer to God through accurate knowledge They had lost sight of the “way” of path. Then Jesus was sent to offer himself as king along with the insights/”way” of reason he was to reveal, so that the remnant could make progress again in their understanding and cross from death to life. The nation of course rejected this offer. So Jesus removed the remnant, the “kingdom among you” to give it to a new nation that would bear its fruit. Those that followed as this kingdom were soon added to by those grafted in as sons. Collectively they were to pray “let your kingdom come” or let those whom you have influence over through Jesus draw closer, or make progress in their understanding and in doing so make their minds over. Remember Jesus left so these/we could receive the spirit of understanding, the last gift, and with it peer into the deep things of God. So again we see that with a clear understanding of the overview we can put information like the statement at Matthew 6:9,10 into it’s proper context, seeing that in this case we are coming to, drawing closer to God with the power of his holy spirit, not the other way around. God was never far off from us. So Matthew 6:9,10 means let us come, let your kingdom come to you in accurate frame of mind so your will is done on earth also.

    Resurrection
    Resurrection means to stand before Yahweh and to receive the wages for that stand. This does not take consciousness and has nothing to do with the process of return to life from the grave. By remembering the over all picture with the parts as they occur this also can be placed in the right order.

    (John 20:22, 23) . . .And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”

    (Romans 5:1-5) . . .Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have gained our approach by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us exult, based on hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope, 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given us.

    (Romans 14:10-12) 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” 12 So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.

    (1 Corinthians 15:1, 2) . . .Now I make known to YOU, brothers, the good news which I declared to YOU, which YOU also received, in which YOU also stand, 2 through which YOU are also being saved, with the speech with which I declared the good news to YOU, if YOU are holding it fast, unless, in fact, YOU became believers to no purpose. . .

    (1 Corinthians 16:13, 14) 13 Stay awake, stand firm in the faith, carry on as men, grow mighty. 14 Let all YOUR affairs take place with love.

    (Galatians 5:1) . . .For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.

    So when you keep in mind that there are three ways to be dead: 1) through your relationship to God, 2) through the law, and 3) when your body dies, we begin to see the ways one can become alive.1) In your relationship with God, as Abraham and others were. Even in death they were considered alive to Yahweh.
    2) Crossing from death to life after our Father, our God, paid the ransom with Jesus’ life. He considers you alive even in the grave as Abraham and others are. 3) Receiving an out- resurrection from the memorial tomb, a return to existence. This gives your life force a new body and with it return to consciousness, and Yahweh returns your thoughts from his memory.

    After Adam, all of mankind were legally dead to Yahweh. Even Jesus as a child, although perfect, was under his adopted father’s headship constituting him under law or legally dead to God. Only after the ransom, sent by Yahweh as the Father with the right to buy back his children through the ransom, was there a chance to cross from death to life. When Jesus as a mature man offered himself as the sacrifice from his Father, there was a way of reconciliation opened. Jesus was anointed as king over the sons of Israel, the offspring of Abraham. Keep in mind that Abraham and his offspring remained condemned, even though they were kept in memorial tombs “alive to Yahweh”. They were under Yahweh’s influence and therefore were in line to be ransomed by their Father through the adoption process.
    So Jesus was king (lower case k) over the living and the dead. Also after the memorial tombs are emptied, he is handed the keys to Hades, now mankind’s common grave with only those dead to Yahweh, both physically and legally, remaining in it. Maybe you remember the reason that all mankind had to be kept in a memorial tomb until the question of God’s sovereignty was answered.
    At Armageddon this answer to the question of Gods sovereignty is answered. The memorial tombs are emptied so that those in them having received an “out- resurrection” are returned to consciousness/existence and will along with those alive at that time be with Jesus as son’s of our Father forever.

    Now the unrighteous, those still in the grave receive a resurrection also, but in their case as they remain judged in their stand before Yahweh, the wages they have already received for their sin is death.
    Those who receive a resurrection to judgment stand before Yahweh and receive a reward for their actions, They remain in the grave await the coming destruction , or second death and are now handed over to the king Jesus while still in Hades/ the common grave.

    You are right of course the nation of Israel did believe in large part in a resurrection at the last day. Interestingly enough so do the Witness’s, even though they now believe that the 144,000 are being resurrected as they die. This is a misunderstanding of the process of crossing from death to life that all must do, not just the 144,000 as the organization now believes. Crossing from death to life legally does not allow for an out resurrection before the last day.
    The organization still has not figured out, at least outside of the “Insight on the Scriptures” book that there is no resurrection to heaven either.
    I hesitate to post a longer post, but will post a shorter part of a longer consideration of concepts in the Bible, resurrection included among them written by us in the past. one that goes in to greater detail if you wish.

    It seems obvious to us that given no idea of what people would do in heaven and no information about it given in the Bible, that the question would inevitably come up “what purpose might we have for leaving the home God gave us?” Interestingly it is seldom a topic of discussion except recently among Bible scholars. Unfortunately most of them are using the “theory of the trinity” to try to answer this question, which confuses the issue and the information from the Bible beyond any sense of logic.

  • traveler

    Hello brothers and sisters of the anointed,

    “Welcome all Anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who would like to talk with you!”
    “Anointed Talk is a place for the Anointed of Jehovah’s Witnesses to talk to each other and for others of us to get a chance to talk to you.”

    My wife and I as anointed appreciate that while we’ve found the intent of this site’s subject is not exactly what this quote would suggest, they do allow you to post here so that the anointed within the organization and here on this site can communicate, and this is appreciated.
    Having said that, I wish to leave a thought that those who are still trying to go in the direction Russell took up and those who are now inside the JW organization, may find interesting. At this point both of these directions, Russell’s followers and JW’s followers have a big problem with the date 1914 and its connection with “generation”.

    Here is the thought:
    The first one produced or generated, first generation. Jesus was the first fruits of Yahweh the Father and his repurchase of mankind. The first produced, or first generated one of his adopted sons. “First born” of those crossing from death to life. Jesus and his brothers were the first humans to begin the process of putting on the incorruptible apparel, and by doing so the first to put on immortality within their relationship with Yahweh. They were a newly produced or generated creation of humans, a “new creation”. While most would enter into the condition of death, they would always be alive to Yahweh and preserved to be returned to existence through the “out-resurrection”. With no overview of reality the witness organization uses first resurrection in place of the original, out-resurrection. Jesus and these newly created people were in fact the first humans to enter (alive) into the reality that will remain, Yahweh’s, since the fall of Adam.

    (2 Corinthians 5:16-19) . . .Consequently from now on we know no man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more. 17 Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! NEW THINGS HAVE COME INTO EXISTENCE. 18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us.

    Abraham and his offspring were to inherit this world the earth, not the organization, “nation of Israel”, or any other people.

    (Galatians 6:12-16) . . .All those who want to make a pleasing appearance in the flesh are the ones that try to compel YOU to get circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the torture stake of the Christ, Jesus. 13 For not even do those who are getting circumcised keep the Law themselves, but they want YOU to be circumcised that they may have cause for boasting in YOUR flesh. 14 Never may it occur that I should boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been impaled to me and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATION [is something]. 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.

    “AND ALL THOSE WHO WILL WALK ORDERLY BY THIS RULE OF CONDUCT,” . . .”ARE THE “ISRAEL OF GOD”

    In other descriptive words, the “sons of Israel”, the offspring of Abraham, the true “Jews”; clearly those that followed Jesus, having nothing to do with the organization, “the nation of Israel” that rejected Jesus.

    (Romans 9:6-8) 6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the PROMISE are counted as the seed. . . ( true Jews)

    Eve produces a first generation.

    (Genesis 4:1) . . .Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced (generated original word) a man with the aid of Jehovah. . .

    *** it-1 p. 917 Generation ***
    When used with reference to family relationships, a generation can refer to a group of descendants, as sons and daughters or grandsons and granddaughters.

    A generation may mean a class of persons, that is, those characterized by certain qualities or conditions. The Bible speaks of “the generation of the righteous one”.(singular)

    (Matthew 24:32-35) . . .“Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this GENERATION (GENERATED PEOPLE) will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

    (Matthew 24:22) . . .In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. . .

    (1 John 2:20) 20 And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. . .

    This refers to the entire congregation not just the 144,000.

    “First born”, those crossing from death to life. Anointed by the knowledge they have, Jesus more than his brothers. Jesus went to heaven and received his two part inheritance and cast Satan out, his time cut short (“but on account of the chosen ones”).

    Again, “that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur”. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.”

    Words, the instruments for producing or generating adopted sons will not pass away.

    So we see that the generation or producing of the “adopted sons” will not come to an end, the time having been “cut short”.

    We would like to express our appreciation to this site once again for their help as “friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.

    Sincerely, the Travelers

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      The Travelers welcome back! I sent you some emails to let you know when you had a message. So now the brothers can read your comments and begin the dialogue.
      I agree with you on a lot of points. And I want to apologize to you if my dialog with you last time caused you not to comment anymore, I didn’t mean to cause you distress or make you think you weren’t welcome. Please forgive me, i have worried about you and your wife. Take care

      • traveler

        Dear Jacqueline, our absence had nothing to do with you or this site. My wife experienced a burst aneurysm. We just got home after almost two months in hospital and recovery. She had the right type if you have to have one and will have a 100 percent recovery. We will be traveling for a time for her continued recovery. We wish you and this site well and again express our thanks for your patience with us.

        Sincerely, travelers

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Oh my We are sorry to hear about your wife’s illness. Blessings when she had the right one if she just had to have this. Take care of wives they are valuable.
          I am so glad to hear it was not something we said for some wanted to talk to you and it makes sense now that you weren’t dealing with emails when you had this life threatening event. Thanks to God she is on her way. I aided a sister to get to know jehovah and she started pioneering right out the gate. For 20 years she labored teaching many. She came home one day and had an aneurysm in the stomach. She passed immediately. So Jehovah has more for her to do. Give her my love. We hopr to meet you one day maybe as you travel. This summer we have 6 day convention in Johnstown, Pa. If near in July maybe you can drop by and we meet. Some talking to you are outside the U S however but some of us will be there. Also check the convention calendar and see if there is a convention near you. Take Care of yourselves.

    • Anon CJ

      I disagree. Did you even read all of Romans such as Romans 11? Israel has not been completely cast off. Read Amos 9:14,15. Many will try to say that this was fulfilled when coming back form the Babylonian Captivity. However, they were again uprooted in 70AD. Faithful Israelites from before the heavenly call openned will be the rulers from Jerusalem in the Millennium.

      You quoted “*** it-1 p. 917 Generation ***
      When used with reference to family relationships, a generation can refer to a group of descendants, as sons and daughters or grandsons and granddaughters”

      This is partially incorrect. When you see a Great grandmother, and a grandmother and a mother and daughter and great grand daughter you say these are 5 generations. When the term generation is used in the Bible to refers to people that are of different ages it is generally becasue they are one group. It tries to create the impression that all descendants are “a generation.” Only if you are talking about all grand kids. Not grandkids and kdis together. Like those in the Exodus are called a generation. This false quote you listed is due to them trying to justify their “This Generation Teaching”

      You also quoted”This refers to the entire congregation not just the 144,000.”
      This is also false. The congregation is only made up of anointed ones. There were no Christians that had an earthly hope. Show me where anyone had an earthly hope in the New Testament. All true Christians were anointed. Thats why JWs take you to the old testament to show earthly scriptures. The Great Crowd is not a second class that attatched itself to the anointed remnant. I suggest you read “Crisis of Conscience” which in the back the republishing of the pamphlet “Where are the Great Crowd Serving Jehovah” is published.

      Israel has been restored to the Middle East by prophesy. The Valley of the Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37 has begun to be fulfilled. The JW organization is not that fulfillment.

      • traveler

        Hi Anon CJ, I’m glad you mention Romans. Look closely, you are right the Jews were not abandoned. They left with their king Jesus. The “kingdom among you” was taken away from the provision the “Nation” of Israel when it rejected Jesus. That’s exactly what Paul was making clear in Romans, that the true Jews those that followed Jesus were to have a “new provision” a new “Nation” that would produce its fruits. I know that this has long been hidden from the world, would you expect less of Satan?

        • traveler

          I thought I’d clarify a couple of things. I see the need for people to learn one line at a time. I also see that if due consideration has been given to a topic an answering comment might need to be many pages long. Paul is a good example of a many page answer. One that he felt necessary to make his reply clear, just a difference of style. I appreciate that those who need a short answer to follow a consideration are not going to read a longer one. I think anyone writing expects only those that respond to their style will read their writing. I personally feel Paul did a very good job keeping his letters short, others may disagree. As brothers and sisters I hope we can learn from even the fool, who has his bit of wisdom. We pray that the statement of the Bible that “Few” find the path does not exclude us because we were too blind to learn something “new” that mankind at large rejects. We know what will happen to mankind at large, the “blind being led by the blind”. The “world” will be saved for those who are to inherit it. We will not forsake our natural dwelling place, the earth, like some of the angels did heaven. I mean this to give hope. Those who are resurrected will with the living be the inhabitants of the earth. Satan the “god of the air” will be replaced by Jesus when he descends from heaven to take Satan’s place from him, as the new “god of the air”. He will establish his new provision over the earth, “New Jerusalem” made up of the 144000. There is no provision for mankind to move from the earth to heaven. Only God’s son who was transferred to earth to be born as Jesus was to inherit earth, through Abraham and then be given return to heaven through his Father. Jesus was not resurrected to heaven, he ascended to his Father. Again we thank those that have exercised patience.

        • Anon CJ

          Romans said that the Kingdom was taken from them and given to those who would accept it. This is the KINGDOM of the HEAVENS. This kingdom of heaven was not taught in the Old Testament because the Jews were wanting the Messiah to come and they would rule in the earth. However Jesus came and called those Jews to a new Heavenly calling that the Bible says was a secret hid from the beginning. Becoming the Bride of Christ was something new. The Jews rejected this and now the gentiles are being grafted in. However the earthly aspect of the Kingdom still belongs to the Jews because even Hid told Abraham that his offspring would inherit the earth. Look at the Type/Antitype of Hagar. Hagar represents the Law covenant and the Ishmael represents the nation of Israel. Galatians 4 confirms this. When they were cast off they were left in the wildnerness and they believed they were going to die. However we see in the story that She and Ismael were restored and became a great nation. So Israel as Isaac was cast off and will become a great nation again. Romans also says that they will remain blind until the fullness of the gentiles come in. Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all of those faithful ones will be princes in all of the earth as visible rulers including all of the faithful Jews. The Jews are being gathered back now and will reign as th earthly aspect of the kingdom. The Bible says in genesis “You offspring will be as many as the star of the sky and the sand of the sea”. That’s pointing out the Heavenly and earthly kingdom.

          Amos 9;14,15
          “I will gather back the captives of my people Israel,And they will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them;They will plant vineyards and drink their wine,And make gardens and eat their fruit.’ 15 ‘I will plant them on their land,And they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them,’ says Jehovah your God.”

          This has not been fulfilled yet because they have been uprooted yet again in 70AD. But the promise of them returning is shown in many texts. What you believe is replacement theology. Israel becoming a nation by prophesy is no coincidence and was looked to for many centuries. The Valley of Dry Bones is of Israel. Not some gradual restoration in 1919 of the Watchtower society.

          In the Bible the Fig Tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel. Jesus said that when we see the fig tree put forth leaven know it is near. Israel has sprouted and is gradually having Jews return.

          • Anon CJ

            Sorry. Ishamel was cast off********

            • traveler

              Look again Anon, the offspring of Abraham are only those who are circumcised of heart and ear.

              God did not fail the “true Jews” by rejecting the “nation of Israel” and those in it that thought they were Jews. Jesus pointed out they are not, but are a “synagogue of Satan” . His statement referred of course to those who thought you need only be related to Abraham in the flesh.

              (Romans 9:6-8) . . .However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

              The kingdom (kingdom meaning range of influence) was removed from the provision, the “old builders”, the nation of Israel with its Pharisees and Sadducees . The nation of Israel was only a provision that was to build up the house of God, It failed. The “good news” was that the true Jews, those still under Yahweh’s influence, “the kingdom among you” was to have a new provision, a “new administration”. Everything in the Bible and God’s reality is about frame of mind. We are to make our minds over, becoming one in frame of mind with God, as Jesus was one with his Father. It is true that the sons will come to be in number as the stars, but the number who find their way out of the reality involved in the question of God’s sovereignty will be few. The “path” followed by a “way” of reason revealed by Jesus, is “narrow”. This is the reason that a grafting happens, because only a remnant made it out of the old provision, the “nation of Israel”, to carry on as the “sons of God”, the sons of Israel, the true offspring of Abraham. The title “Jew” was never really able to be used by individuals other than those “circumcised of heart and ear”. Equating this title “Jew” with a nation or flesh, was always a mistake that both the nation and the world has made. As Paul brings out it only ever applied to “God’s People” those under God’s influence (kingdom), and those who followed Jesus out of the nation of Israel. I know I keep bringing this up brother but an overview of reality is necessary to put these things into their proper order. Many people hold a good deal of right information but fail when putting it together because of the lack of an overview. The “theory of the trinity” for example was an attempt to gain an overview that would allow for the proper connecting of the information in the Bible,. Of course it never succeeded even though there are those that still try to make it work, to make sense.

              • Anon CJ

                So I can see I’m speaking with someone that doesn’t know their Bible nor the plan of God. So let me share you. What you believe is the error of Replacement Theology. This means that the church replaced Israel. This is an error that JWs teach as well as you believe. When I was a JW i thought just like you. That Israel was cast off. Take humility to know I was wrong.

                You said to look again. The Offspring of Abraham are NOT only the church. Isaac, Jacob and all those including Rahab and Samson and all of those listed as those of faith in Hebrews 11 are not of the church. Their hope to live on the earth. They are offspring of Abraham. In Genesis Jehovah said:

                Genesis 13:15
                “All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever.”

                This includes Israel. His offspring is not only the 144,000 but the ancient worthies that will reign on the earth in Israel.

                Isaiah 2:3
                “Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

                Notice how it says that they will get the word from Zion (Heaven) and from Jerusalem? Not heavenly Jerusalem. Israel is being gathered back as was prophesies a long time ago.

                The HEAVENLY Kingdom was removed from Israel. What you FAIL to realize is that Jesus came and offered the HEAVENLY kingdom to them. That’s what he preached on. This was a NEW hope never realized before. It was taken from the nation of Israel and given now to the gentiles. However the earthly kingdom still belongs to those faithful before the Spirit was given such as Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

                Look at Ezekiel 37 and then especially 37:11-13
                Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

                This prophesy was written and says that “this is whole house of Israel.” Not spiritual Israel. This is about the restoration of Israel. It says they will be brought back to their LAND. Not a spiritual estate like the WTS.

                Jesus also spoke about the Fig tree. The Fig tree is also a symbol of the nation of Israel. The manner in which he uses the fig tree shows hes is speaking of Israel in Matthew 21:19,20, Mark 11:13,14,20-21. The fig tree will bloom again as we see in Matthew 24:32
                “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.”

                Jesus here was referring to the Kingdom. And we see Israel sprouting again. The Jews are being gathered back for the Millennial Kingdom.

                You don’t see that there are two Israels, Two hopes, Two Salvations, To Days of Salvation.

                Here are some scriptures to show that Israel will be restored.

                “He will raise a flag among the nations for Israel to rally around. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12 (NLT)

                “The time is coming when my people will take root. Israel will bud and blossom and fill the whole earth with her fruit!” Isaiah 27:6 (NLT)

                “‘Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west and from north and south. I will bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. All who claim me as their God will come, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them.” Isaiah 43:5-7 (NLT)

                “Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem’s birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth.” Isaiah 66:8 (NLT)

                “‘But the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when people who are taking an oath will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.’ For I will bring them back to this land that I gave their ancestors.” Jeremiah 16:14-15 (NLT)

                “‘But I will gather together the remnant of my flock from wherever I have driven them. I will bring them back into their own fold, and they will be fruitful and increase in number. Then I will appoint responsible shepherds to care for them, and they will never be afraid again. Not a single one of them will be lost or missing,’ says the Lord.

                ‘For the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will place a righteous Branch on King David’s throne. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this is his name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

                ‘In that day,’ says the Lord, ‘when people are taking an oath, they will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.’ Then they will live in their own land.” Jeremiah 23:3-8 (NLT)

                “I will end your captivity and restore your fortunes. I will gather you out of the nations where I sent you and bring you home again to your own land.” Jeremiah 29:14 (NLT)

                “For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it and live here again. I, the Lord, have spoken!” Jeremiah 30:3 (NLT)

                “I will surely bring my people back again from all the countries where I will scatter them in my fury. I will bring them back to this very city and let them live in peace and safety.” Jeremiah 32:37 (NLT)

                “Therefore, give the exiles this message from the Sovereign Lord: Although I have scattered you in the countries of the world, I will be a sanctuary to you during your time in exile. I, the Sovereign Lord, will gather you back from the nations where you were scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel once again.” Ezekiel 11:16-17 (NLT)

                “When I bring you home from exile, you will be as pleasing to me as an offering of perfumed incense. And I will display my holiness in you as all the nations watch. Then when I have brought you home to the land I promised your ancestors, you will know that I am the Lord.” Ezekiel 20:41-42 (NLT)

                “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The people of Israel will again live in their own land, the land I gave my servant Jacob. For I will gather them from the distant lands where I have scattered them. I will reveal to the nations of the world my holiness among my people. They will live safely in Israel and build their homes and plant their vineyards. And when I punish the neighboring nations that treated them with contempt, they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 28:25-26 (NLT)

                “I will be like a shepherd looking for his scattered flock. I will find my sheep and rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. I will bring them back home to their own land of Israel from among the peoples and nations. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel and by the rivers in all the places where people live. Yes, I will give them good pastureland on the high hills of Israel. There they will lie down in pleasant places and feed in lush mountain pastures.” Ezekiel 34:12-14 (NLT)

                “And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.” Ezekiel 37:21-22 (NLT)

                “So now the Sovereign Lord says: I will end the captivity of my people; I will have mercy on Israel, for I am jealous for my holy reputation! They will accept responsibility for their past shame and treachery against me after they come home to live in peace and safety in their own land. And then no one will bother them or make them afraid. When I bring them home from the lands of their enemies, my holiness will be displayed to the nations. Then my people will know that I am the Lord their God – responsible for sending them away to exile and responsible for bringing them home. I will leave none of my people behind. And I will never again turn my back on them, for I will pour out my Spirit upon them, says the Sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 39:25-29 (NLT)

                “In that day I will restore the fallen kingdom of David. It is now like a house in ruins, but I will rebuild its walls and restore its former glory. And Israel will possess what is left of Edom and all the nations I have called to be mine. I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do these things.

                ‘The time will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when the grain and grapes will grow faster than they can be harvested. Then the terraced vineyards on the hills of Israel will drip with sweet wine! I will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands, and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again. They will plant vineyards and gardens; they will eat their crops and drink their wine. I will firmly plant them there in the land I have given them,’ says the Lord your God. ‘Then they will never be uprooted again.'” Amos 9:11-15 (NLT)

                “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem’s streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares. And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play. This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: All this may seem impossible to you now, a small remnant of God’s people. But is it impossible for me? says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: You can be sure that I will rescue my people from the east and from the west. I will bring them home again to live safely in Jerusalem. They will be my people, and I will be faithful and just toward them as their God.” Zechariah 8:4-8 (NLT)

                Many will say that these were fulfilled during the post-Babylon exile. This is not true because their being brought back in many of these scriptures shows that they will affect the world. Some scriptures even say they will never again be uprooted.

                • traveler

                  Hi again Anon,

                  “This prophesy was written and says that “this is whole house of Israel.” Not spiritual Israel. This is about the restoration of Israel. It says they will be brought back to their LAND.”

                  Until you realize that frame of mind is the total concern of God and the sum of the related thoughts in the Bible, you will continue to try to make a separation between Israel and spiritual Israel. God’s people were only ever spiritual Israel and continue to be. Their relationship with God has nothing to do with physical connection, Place or government. They have always been a minority among all the people that associated with them and tried to claim the title of “sons of Israel”. Those calling themselves Jews in Jesus day that he so clearly pointed out were not jews, were of the exact opinion that you and they still hold today.

                  By the way I appreciate you demonstrating that sometimes an answer needs to be a little longer to adequately cover a consideration. Just a loving poke of humor brother.

                  • Anon CJ

                    Until you realize that Israel has been restored to their land as we have been anticipating based in the Bible you will continue to believe in the error of replacement theology as taught by your religion. We know you’re a JW. You quote all of their literature. And that’s Ok. We think outside the box here. If you would have read all of the scriptures that I’ve used to support my portion there would be no question. Israel becoming a nation is no accident. It was in expectation. And t happened. 70 years after 1878. The first establishment in Israel. Now reread those scriptures above. Spiritual Israel was not scattered because of disobedience and then gathered back metaphorically in the Watchtower Organization. I pray Jehovah removes the scales from your eyes. Just a little bible humor brother.

                    • traveler

                      “So I can see I’m speaking with someone that doesn’t know their Bible nor the plan of God. So let me share you.”

                      We’re sorry, reading this comment again we see we’ve missed that you are not carrying on a consideration in common with us, just stating an obvious judgment.

                      We wrote the statement below as reply, before going back to see if we could understand why you seem to be having so much trouble following these scriptural trains of thought. We admit that our responding after your first post was lack of insight on our part. WE don’t wish to suggest that you don’t have the right to be fixed in your position. we also wouldn’t want to try to push you in a direction you’ve made quiet clear you don’t intend to consider. We have posted the comment below for those following in the wings not to push you further.

                      Hi Anon, We’re sorry you drew the conclusion we are witness’s, we are not. Jesus rejected the nation of Israel and turned to a new nation, I’m not sure how you miss that.

                      (Matthew 21:42-45) 42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.” 45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them.

                      The twelve tribes will inherit the earth under this new nation. Jerusalem will be reestablished as new Jerusalem, but not on the earth. But thank you for your comments. It seems we are at an impasse and that’s OK.

                      we wish you every blessing you ask for from Yahweh.

                    • Anon JC

                      You literally have to ignore all of those scriptures to favor your view. I don’t believe you read them. You literally post from JW sources but aren’t a Jaw? That’s hard to believe. Also what do you mean I don’t want to understand the other view? I came out of that view. How can I not see that view if I recognize it as replacement theology? I pray Jehovah will open your eyes and let the scale fall from them. Israel was predicted to be restored and you have the blinders on to that. It’s ok. Israel is being regathered as was predicted. But you believe the heresy of Replacement Theology. Come off the JW plantation and think for yourself. Israel was cast off from HEAVENLY kingdom. Not earthly as was promised through Abraham.

                  • greg (Bible Student)

                    I might regret saying the following things because I expect it might seem like I’m starting up a different argument. I’m not. I’m simply attempting to describe my own mental picture. No one has to agree with me.

                    Whenever I reads the books of Jeremiah and Isaiah, I get a real clear picture of how the term Spiritual Israel isn’t always a flattering one. No matter how you put it, the “Spirit of Israel”, or “Israel in Spirit”, or “Israel’s Spirit”, or “Spiritual Israel” was condemned for the spirit they held and displayed. They made sacrifices of lame and blind animals. They treated the lepers cruelly and painfully, rather than lovingly. They were stingy, not generous. They turned the law of God into a means of profit for themselves. They acted hypocritically. They watered down the Law of Moses and held to traditions instead. They were self-righteous and sinned greatly. They held to the belief that God was “on their side” and that he even approved of their actions, attitudes, and teachings.

                    All of that aptly describes the Jehovah’s Witness organization today. And no, it’s not very flattering. It’s deplorable, detestable. And so whenever I hear the term “Spiritual Israel”, I shudder and cringe at the surging wave of nausea deep inside me. I don’t think the term is very complimentary, but a severe critique. And so to take on the label as though it’s something to be proud of is in my mind yet another manifestation of the haughtiness of Spirit that should instead be considered repugnant.

                    Jesus said the time was coming (already here) when God would look for those who would worship him in spirit and truth. I find that I have more than sufficient to occupy myself in simply trying to focus on eliminating the faults I continually discover within my own spirit.

                    The Bible speaks of Jacob’s Trouble. I expect that prophecy to be fulfilled on fleshly Israel, and only to a lesser extent on all who have a similar spirit.

                    -greg

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Greg i want to jump in here and say I shudder when the so called spiritual israel ones speak, because they remind me of natural israel in Jesus day. The governing body and their anointed are supposed to be “spiritual israel”. If this is true then I would rather die than be under these people. Like the group scientology they are anti-Christ. The governing body of Jehovah witnesses have replaced Christ with themselves. I reject this so called spiritual israel and instead go for submission and rule by Christ.
                      PS: the only reason I use gb of Jw. Is the internet search by others looks for this phrase. Otherwise i normally drop the mention of Jehovah. I beg His indulgence with me on this point. More will find this conversation with that phrase.

                    • traveler

                      Hi Greg, good comment from our point of view. Remember Paul, a persecutor of the real Sons of Israel, mistakenly thought himself to be one of spiritual Israel. Once he crossed from death to life (was kind of forced across) he wrote Romans to explain that the sons of Israel were never anyone except those with the right heart condition. The “Nation” of Israel was a provision that had many chances to serve but it never completed its service to God and was replaced, just as the claimed provision the Jehovah’s witness organization has not fulfilled their claims to serve the same purpose.

                      Jesus is already head of the congregation and is pouring out the spirit of understanding. The point is that like Russell, Franz, Luther, and many others, we can find the path through the information that Jesus revealed. The mistake that is made over and over is there is no denomination or division from the congregation awaiting Christ’s return to earth that will serve God’s purpose now. Once you’ve been set free by the truth, you can’t go back to letting another man decide for you what your stand will be. As Jesus suffered outside the Gates of Jerusalem, we suffer too. Few find the path and they are not the fat sheep as the Bible puts it. We are not willing to accept the organization as the “channel of God”, no more than God could accept those who claimed to be Gods people, spiritual Israel. Jesus made clear that while claiming the title they certainly never lived up to it.

                      God deals with two different levels of mankind: 1) mankind as a whole, as a kind.
                      2) Those like Abraham, who have the right heart. Those of the latter have always been few and far between as the saying goes. So you are right to feel the way you do, many have before us. Job was mentioned earlier in the comments. I think that God must have suffered to see his friend treated the way he was by Satan. God is bound by this question of his sovereignty and the taunt that God’s friend would desert him when tested was just one more attempt to find something Yahweh believed in was, in fact, wrong. God said, well you’re going to do it anyway, you don’t need my permission. Go ahead and test him. Even Satan is fearful to touch someone connected to God. I cried while reading of Job’s struggle to put up with people of lesser understanding, as he lost family and friends to the whims of Satan while all the time keeping the most important friend’s trust, God’s. Job knew it wasn’t God’s will that he suffer. It’s not God’s will that we suffer.

                      It is always wonderful to hear or read an honest heart state “hey that doesn’t MAKE sense!”. That’s what my wife and I call “sense of direction” because if you pursue an answer that does MAKE sense, you will find it in the “Way” of reason that Jesus revealed on this path which you move “up” drawing closer to the frame of mind of God.

                      “The sickened ones you have not strengthened, and the ailing one you have not healed, and the broken one you have not bandaged, and the dispersed one you have not brought back, and the lost one you have not sought to find. . . . I myself shall feed my sheep, and I myself shall make them lie down, is the utterance of the Lord Jehovah.”
                      “The lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall annihilate. I shall feed that one with judgment.” . . . “Here I am, I myself, and I shall certainly judge between a plump sheep and a lean sheep, for the reason that with flank and with shoulder you kept pushing and with your horns you kept shoving all the sickened ones until you had scattered them to the outside.”

                    • traveler

                      I know some here don’t like long posts, so be forewarned. This is part of the letter of dissociation that my wife and I sent to the organization. Just for the curious.

                      The Awake! Magazine in an article on propaganda said: “Tyranny of authority, ridicule, name-calling, smears, slurs, personal digs, all such tactics are marshalled to assail your mind and take it by storm. . . they resort to making assertions and they scoff at all who dare dispute them . . . . They prove neither their assertions nor their smears, but by the tyranny of authority they pontificate their opinions, squelch objections and intimidate opposers.”

                      Articles titled “An Open or a Closed Mind—Which Do You Have?” and “An Open Mind Wins God’s Approval” appear in the November 22, 1984, Awake! and another titled “Are You Open to New Ideas?” in the January 15, 1989 Watchtower. These are all directed entirely to non-Witnesses. The first article, on page 3, gives a definition of prejudice as: “A judgment or opinion, favorable or unfavorable, formed beforehand or without due examination; a mental decision based on other grounds than reason or justice; especially, a premature or adversely biased opinion”. Recognizing that decisions made “without due examination” or judgments reached “on other grounds than reason or justice” are evidences of a closed mind, the article advocates an “open mind” which is “receptive to new information and ideas,” and “willing to examine and evaluate information without a biased attitude.”

                      It is no real proof of love of truth to simply use it as an
                      instrument to expose the fallacies in the belief systems of others. The real test of our love of truth is when it exposes fallacies in our own belief system, and we not only accept it but are grateful to be freed from the error.

                      We have been asked to wait on the organization. Three committees arrived at the conclusion that the statement offered by myself as to what the scriptures put forward as an explanation of the hope of the resurrection was, in fact, the only reasonable understanding one could gain from reading the Bible. They further concluded that it showed the present truth of the organization relating to the basic understanding of the hope of the resurrection would not stand.

                      These experiences, accompanied by many interactions with elders over the past forty years where it was either acknowledged, or by their reaction obvious that they had reached this same conclusion, have led us to a conclusion of our own: It would be wrong to continue allowing brothers and sisters to die without knowing the only hope that would assure their hope of a resurrection was not in vain.

                      We believe, as Jesus did, that we have a personal spirit on which identity is based. If you have not yet seen it for yourself in the Bible, this explanation is given in the “Insight On the Scriptures”, volume 2, pg.56 under the heading Jesus Christ, subheading, His Birth on Earth. This section deals with the transfer of the personal spirit of the Word into the womb of Mary, thus maintaining identity. Of course the identity would be maintained throughout the time Jesus was preserved alive in the grave awaiting resurrection. We believe in this hope, that our spirit enters the memorial tomb and is preserved alive in the grave until resurrection returns us to life, just as it happened with the resurrection of Jesus. In other words, we hold that the hope given by the proof of “THE resurrection”, the resurrection of Jesus, is our hope of continued identity under his new administration. We agree that Jehovah does know our thoughts, those that have perished, and from his personal memory, programs the mind of a newly created body to receive our resurrected spirit; thus we are regenerated, as the original language presents it. Knowing that we at no time share identity with God, this regeneration, the adding to something that exists to make it have existence again, is demonstrated in the transfer, death and resurrection to life of Jesus.

                      We again make reference to the only reasonable explanation of hope, THE resurrection explanation given within the Bible and the “Insight on the Scriptures”. These are the only reasonable explanations regarding OUR continued identity, and ensure that OUR hope and OUR faith are not in vain.

                      (Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

                      Not so with the sons of God, who are preserved alive in the memorial tombs, as was Jesus the first fruit of God.

                      We whole heartedly agree with the stated position of the organization:
                      .
                      *** W05 5/1 pp. 9-10 par. 8 the Resurrection—A Teaching That Affects You ***
                      “Yes, so fundamental is the teaching of the resurrection that the Christian faith is in vain if the resurrection is not accepted as a reality. Indeed, the correct understanding of the resurrection sets true Christians apart from the false.”

                      Although the organization fumbles around a bit, they still get across that only an accurate understanding of the resurrection makes you a true member of the Christian Congregation, a son or daughter of God.

                      Dear Brothers,

                      We would like to point out in the beginning that we believe many of you are sincere. Taking this into consideration, and with love and great sadness, we offer the following realizations.

                      The organization, who now states that it, the governing body, is “the channel from God”, “the faithful and discrete slave” rather than his representative, and because of this should be allowed to decide right and wrong for the individual members of the Christian congregation, has thus called for worship.

                      This has for all practicality made those under this organization Catholic, worshiping the Pope. The only difference is the number of individuals who are called the “channel of God”.

                      (2 Thessalonians 2:3-5) . . .Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?

                      Whenever men call upon others, whether openly or by implication, to accept their own word and their religious teachings and rulings that are not clearly stated in scripture, as if these came from God, then they would surely appear to manifest the characteristics of the “man of lawlessness” referred to in the above scripture.

                      When discussing the position of any man who serves a congregation in any capacity, the scholar Lightfoot observes that throughout scripture, “. . . his office is representative and not vicarial. He does not interpose between God and man in such a way that direct communion with God is superseded on the one hand, or that his own mediation becomes indispensable on the other. This is to say that men can never properly claim that because we are undershepherds of Christ you should treat us as if we were the Shepherd himself; you should not question our instructions any more than you would his. It is through us that you have relationship with God and Christ and you should therefore remain submissive to our direction in all things if you desire God’s approval and blessing. Be grateful to us for whatever we give you and be quiet.”

                      To say this is to go directly contrary to the apostle Peter’s urgings to fellow elders, when he said:

                      (1 Peter 5:2-5) Shepherd the flock of God in YOUR care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; 3 neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, YOU will receive the unfadable crown of glory. …… . .But all of YOU gird yourselves with lowliness of mind toward one another, because God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones. . .

                      Every individual Christian has the obligation to assess the genuineness of whatever message is presented to him by carefully reasoning through it. He must make a personal decision as to its validity, doing this no matter what claims may accompany the message. This is obvious from Jesus Christ’s own words when, speaking of his true sheep, he said: “ . . . the sheep follow him [the true Shepherd], because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice”.

                      Clearly, the sheep must themselves determine whether it is genuinely Christ Jesus who is talking to them in the message they hear. The exaltation of men, with accompanying authoritarian speech, dogmatism, and a legalistic approach that suppresses tolerance and compassion, will rightly have a foreign sound to the sheep when presented by persons claiming to represent their Shepherd. Rather than taking the view sometimes heard today, “Even if wrong, go along” the sheep must decide.

                      (Romans 14:21-23) . . .It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves. 23 But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin. . .

                      We believe the organization is responsible for the general air of fear and mistrust of any reasonable consideration, and has cultivated a frame of mind among the elders and sheep alike that is, as the Bible says, “not open to reason”. This is borne out by the complete lack of a reasonable avenue to question elders or the governing body; both are not “open to reason”. This is also confirmed when one experiences the air of fear and suspicion generated within the congregation when any information brought into a conversation strikes the brother or sister who is listening as new information. The overwhelming response of the listener is to enter into a cultivated train of thought and expression based on the idea that all new information must come from the “faithful slave” or in other words, the governing body. This trained response arises in situations where the listener may not yet have read this information in the Watchtower or heard it from the elders, and not having heard it from one of these sources, concludes the speaker must be veering toward apostasy.

                      This stance toward any request offered to reason more deeply on a subject occurs even though the information is clearly identified as coming directly from the organization’s publications, for example the “Insight on the Scriptures” volumes. The listener still rejects hearing it, or reports the conversation to an elder instead of researching the cited publication with the curiosity necessary to the Christian pursuit of Truth. It would help the brothers and sisters to know that the elders have said that they “don’t have time to look into the deeper things of Jehovah”. How sad it is that those shepherding us, those we assume are chosen for the obvious trait of being mature seekers of the Truth, admit that they do not have the time to grow closer to Jehovah through accurate knowledge on a mature level, deeper.

                      Having said this, we find the realization that the frame of mind the organization has cultivated in you, the elders, that would allow both the present and past coordinating overseer of this congregation to state, “I would knowingly teach wrong information about the Bible to the Christian congregation, if asked to by the organization”, the “Even if wrong, go along” attitude mentioned earlier, coupled with overseers over multiple congregations stating the same thought, adds up to a completely unacceptable position. This cultivated loyalty to an organization is what led sincere brothers to help the organization of their day to see that Jesus was nailed to the stake. This statement, “I would knowingly teach wrong” is a stand against God, and is a device used by Satan to achieve his end.

                      To make organizational loyalty the criterion for judging anyone’s Christianity is clearly a perversion of scripture. To urge, even to insist, that persons put faith in any earthly system, is totally without foundation in the scriptures. Read the whole of those scriptures and it is clear that what we are called on to do is to put faith in God, faith in his Son, faith in the Word of God as brought to us by those whom He inspired, but nowhere are we taught to put faith in men or in an earthly organization, unquestioningly following its lead. Such faith is misplaced. Far from encouraging such faith in imperfect men, the entire Bible record is a continual reminder of the danger inherent in that kind of trust.

                      How did this same circumstance affect the course of God’s Son, Christ Jesus? He followed a course and spoke in a way that brought upon him the disapproval and opposition of that authority structure and its most responsible members, including the very high priest himself. In reality, it was what might justly be called “the governing body” of the national organization, the chief priest and members of the Sanhedrin that judged him adversely. And it was to that “governing body” that the apostles later declared, “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” The stand they took and the
                      principle they voiced remain valid today. They are in direct conflict with the view of “going along” with an organization simply because it claims to speak for God.

                      “The sickened ones you have not strengthened, and the ailing one you have not healed, and the broken one you have not bandaged, and the dispersed one you have not brought back, and the lost one you have not sought to find. . . . I myself shall feed
                      my sheep, and I myself shall make them lie down, is the utterance of the Lord Jehovah.”
                      “The lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall annihilate. I shall feed that one with judgment.” . . . “Here I am, I myself, and I shall certainly judge between a plump sheep and a lean sheep, for the reason that with flank and with shoulder you kept pushing and with your horns you kept shoving all the sickened ones until you had scattered them to the outside.”

                      “If we had lived in the times of our ancestors we should never have joined in the killing of the prophets.” Despite their professions, the course of those religious leaders showed that they had the same spirit as their ancestors, who brought about the death of the organizationally rejected prophets. In parallel fashion, while honoring those dissenting individuals and non-conformist groups of the past, the Watch Tower organization employs the identical weapons that were used against them, organizational censorship, intimidation, pressure, coercion and excommunication, to silence any attempt today at free, open discussion of the validity of its teachings and exercise of authority. Those it now labels as heretical are to be viewed as dead by all its members. It praises the courage that made men and women in the past hold to their convictions, condemns the same course now as born of a disruptive, prideful spirit, as evidence of rebellion against God, and in doing so uses language strongly reminiscent of the ecclesiastical condemnations of the past. Yet human history is surely the richer for containing the examples that such men and women of conscience set in their stand for freedom.

                      “Brothers, do not become young children in powers of understanding, but be babes as to badness; yet become full-grown in powers of understanding.” In the world, rulers lord it over their subjects, and their great men make them feel the weight of their authority; but it shall not be so among you. Among you, whoever wants to be great must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the willing servant of all, like the son of man; he did not come to be served, “to be ministered to”, but to serve.

                      We are true Jews. The organizational title, “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is an attempt at a division of the congregation since it legally refers to the 144,000, and is unnecessary. The 144,000 as part of the twelve tribes serve the 12 tribes. As scripture says, “He that boasts, let him boast in Jehovah”. The human race has nothing to boast about to God, but God has made us in union with Christ Jesus and by God’s doing he has become our wisdom, and our virtue, and our holiness, and our freedom. The organization by its claim to have the right as “the channel of God” to decide right and wrong for us, has attempted to put the Congregation back under law.

                      With great sadness we say to those of you who are honest hearted, or circumcised of heart and ear, but have not found the courage to stand erect for truth this day, we forgive you in advance and express our love for you as brothers, and in the case of the congregation, brothers and sisters.

                      In conclusion, we find that we can no longer allow our stand to come under the title “Jehovah’s Witness” that the legal department of the organization has added to the baptismal questions, as a legal connective statement to join members of the Christian Congregation to the organization. Therefore we formally ask to be disassociated from that organization.

                      We want to make clear that our statement is not a request nor does it carry with it in any form the idea that we are removing ourselves from the Congregation. In addition it does not imply belief that any member of the organization can remove us from this Congregation. We remain witnesses of Yahweh.

                      (1Co 4:3-5) “Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by you or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.”

                      We exhort you brothers once more to render sacred service to God. This service can only be achieved with your individual power of reason. This is the basis on which you will be examined; no other person or organization can make this stand for you.

                      (Romans 12:1, 2) . . .Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Traveler, I just go home and saw this, now I am on the Wednesday night study so I haven’t read your letter but this is going to be good I know when I read it after the meeting Tonite is over. Come on if you can now to just say hello. It is 7:11pm.1302-202-1110 then put 991337. Hope to see you on. Don’t worry about the length of your
                      Postings, I were wrong and please forgive me. There are a lot of people following you and anonCJ. Take care

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Travelers, 1Cor. 4:3-5 is a scripture I live by when I dare think about the governing body of the witnesses.
                      Thank you so much for posting your letter written to the watchtower society, it’s governing body and it’s organization. You were very clear on some points in particular about the Spirit and ressurrection. At Memorial studies this year, I again focused on the scripture where into God’s hand he entrusted his spirit. Also that the spirit goes back to the Lord God that gave it. There were many points that you brought out that I have seen in many letters of disassociation. Those baptism questions indicates that the organization of the so called Jehovah witnesses is a cult.
                      Welcome my brother.
                      I just got the opportunity to sit down and read your story. It is compelling!
                      Thank you.

                    • Anon JC

                      I won’t argue with him anymore Greg. He keeps his nose in JW books which is why he’s blinded by the “Replacement Theology”. He’s has to ignore every single scripture I quoted to favor his limited unbiblical view. Israel has been given back to them in these last days as shown. He can’t see it because he keeps reading JW logic. But claims he’s not a JW. Sounds ignorant to me.

            • traveler

              When you look at Jesus or Paul in the flesh you see the Bible relates that they were “tented” or in a temporary body, one that would die. Having crossed from death to life they entered into a house, a home, or a mansion that they would inhabit forever, a permanent dwelling. Likewise we see that those who do this, plant their own vineyards, as those of the original vine, or as a grafted branch. I hope you see where this is going. Assuming you do I’ll leave this answer short.

              (John 15:1-10) 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. 3 YOU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU. 4 Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU, unless YOU remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine, YOU are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me YOU can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If YOU remain in union with me and my sayings remain in YOU, ask whatever YOU wish and it will take place for YOU. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that YOU keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me and I have loved YOU, remain in my love. 10 If YOU observe my commandments, YOU will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

            • traveler

              one last thought. “heavenly calling” is upward call from heaven. “make your minds over” make your mind “up”. Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so make your minds up.Jesus simply meant that you should not trust mortal man but should look to the God of heaven and Earth to set you on the path. It is those who are circumcised of heart and ear that receive the spirit of adoption as sons and with this increased intellectual capacity are able to understand the things hidden but now revealed by Jesus. This calling was extended even to those in the grave when Jesus inherited his two part inheritance over heaven and earth as he became king over the living and the dead. no one comes who is not “called” by God.

              (John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except THROUGH me. . .
              frame of mind is always at the ROOT of it. Let those who have ears hear and so on.

              • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                Traveler, I would like to hear more on your thought about Christ’s being over the living and the dead thus some in the grave could have been called.
                Now do you mean those who died before He opened heaven by dying faithful and ransoming us? Or do you mean only after he died. This is an interesting thought and I have heard it before. I ask this because Jews and no one before Christ ever talked about going to heaven at death or in the resurrection. Jews believed in resurrection on the last day. John 5:26-29.
                I always thought Jesus brought something new to be called sons of God if you obeyed his commands. John 12:-17 chapter he explains that he is going away and they will follow. They said we do not know where you are going. Because humans had earth as their destiny after resurrection. But I have heard what you stated. Do you have any other scriptural support for this thinking? Thanks, Jacqueline

                • greg (Bible Student)

                  And I would add that Matthew 11:11 seems relevant to consider:

                  “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”

                  -greg

  • Brandi

    Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters,

    I am not quite sure how this chat stuff works, to be honest. So bare with me as I try to figure it out. I thank you all for your kindness, understanding, and patience. I am just here to throw out ideas that manifest from Now Where. I like to think that all the disciples were examples of the various nations (by which I mean the main major sects of ancient religion and the split of them to separate the “wheat” from the “weeds”) of today. Meaning of each sect there were found earnest ones seeking that continue to seek the truth in love and humility separated from the wicked at heart ones seeking to exploit for their own selfish gain forsakening love and consideration for their brother. Then there are ones caught in the middle, lost, and confused by all chaos stirred by betrayl and lies, but still despite all the pain that comes with that these ones keep trying their best to be good at heart (at the core of their very being) and strive to exercise the fruitages of the spirit.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Good morning Brandi. You can comment to anyone, like Marjo for instance and you two can talk. Someone else might join in or just let you and her talk. You may bring up a subject or question something. Look at the latest comments and we try to use the person’s name as we start so you for instance could see you have a reply. I think there is a place to sign up for notifications of new comments. But you can just say what you think about an article you just read. There aren’t fast rules.
      Will you be with family these few days? Are you being shunned? Some witnesses don’t do that crazy bullying thing called shunning. Hopefully you have a God fearing family that reacts like Jesus instead of a bully.

      • Brandi

        Hi Jacqueline,

        Hope your day is going well. What are your plans for today? I am not attending any dinners today, since I am working. But if I wasn’t working, I would be heading to a friend’s house, not biological family. But no, my family will talk to me if I reach out to them. They just won’t reach out to me. They are still loving and kind though. They don’t go out of there way to “shun” or ignore me. And when we do talk, it is always out of concern for my well being, they listen well too. They are easy to communicate with. I, myself, just respect their stand for what they believe is proving faith to Our Heavenly Father, even if I don’t quite agree with it. I choose to not reach out to them unless it for a dire need or a serious inquiry. But they have always have been very loving towards me, to the best of their ability -which is what really matters; loving to the capacity as much as an imperfect human can. They are good people with a lot of love to give, I am very thankful and proud of their examples.

        • Jacqueline (Bible student)

          Brandi what a beautiful description of your family and the fact you respect what they believe.
          I also have never tried to ask my family to see things as i believe. Unlike your family however, my family come after me very forcefully at times. My sons believe from the bottom of their heart that i will go to Gehenna at death or armageddon. I wish i could still their fears more but they absolutely require i come back to the kingdom hall and submit to the governing body.Their wives are a driving force also because we wete very close like daughters and mother. I took care of them in childbirth and afterwards, not their mothers because we had that type of relationship.
          My son said just this last month for the sake of unity wont you come back? It isnt about God or Jesus as they aren’t that biblely. It is about appearances as all being in the same organization. I cant comply and the watchtower society wouldnt appreciate me being there with my Biblical different knowledge. That is why I left just walked away because I wasn’t silent and elders deliberately called on me to say what they couldn’t. My sons are still young and have a lot of maturing to do as regard the worship to the Most High God. I can’t bow before their 7 gods. But i try to keep peace by being silent and now staying away since the governing body meeting of October 7, 2017.

          • Brandi

            Jacqueline,

            This expression of “going to Gehenna” is a one I have never heard someone say before within the organization. It is very “Christendom-like” mimicking the idea of a place equal to “hell.” Similar to you, I have definitely heard concern from my family about the possibility of being destroyed during Armageddon. Not just concern for me but for themselves as well as the people they care about. It has taken a toll on my Grandmother, who is like a mother to me. She was/is always crying behind the scenes, worrying for everyone as well as herself. She seem terrified of that lurk of destruction around the corner. She became diagnosed with depression. So did my Grandfather who served as an Elder for sometime, but was asked to step down due to the inability to make meetings regularly due to being ill quite often. She really has a big heart and my Grandfather is the most approachable and “seemingly” neutral man I have ever met, he is always leveled headed and calm even in disagreeance. The only thing I wish is that she would find comfort by finding the real Truth and knowing that we are here to only provide a good example of Christian love, as outlined by Jesus. Once we do that, there is nothing to fear.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Brandi I was shocked when my relative said Gehenna in 2009. He was very definite that I was never coming back ever.
              But in the last 2 months all of the witnesses use the term Gehenna or 2nd death.
              A group of elders went to the nursing home of one our newly deceased sisters and said if she died now in this period of time or armageddon she would go to Gehenna. 2 sisters made a followup call and used the term. An 82 year old sister that left 10 years ago was told of Gehenna. I was just told with the last couple of weeks the term Gehenna.
              The governing body said at the Annual meeting October 7, in a pre talk that the preaching work was over, Matt 24:14 has been fulfilled. So the elders say they are not doing a saving work now but declaring judgement.
              Since October 7th, 2017 they only go to persons they deem are sheep and not to the general public.
              So many are getting these intense visits as the whole association of the witnesses are scared like cult members before they self destruct. Looking from the outside in it is crazy to see them in an absolute frenzy. They are visiting people 6 or more times. They are very threatening in their delivery to some. This is nation wide not isolated. So this means it is coming out of Warwick from the governing body.
              Hopefully my family will calm down after a few months as witnesses normally do after each scare tactic. My children are young and haven’t paid attention to or weren’t born to realize they do this every twenty to thirty years to boost the falling numbers. They are after older witnesses now because of the economy. Young people can’t give or don’t have an estate to leave to them.
              I posted these links earlier this month on this talk and an article on why churches are targeting the older generation. They are under ask Jacqueline or I can repost for you to listen to or read.

              • Brandi

                Jacqueline,

                I haven’t kept up with what has been recently going on inside that organization. It is really sad and disappointing to see the exploit of sincere people’s faith, spirituality, and their yearning to feed their spiritual need for personal gain. I have been disfellowshipped for 3 years now and have not received any “shepherding calls” but I guess, maybe it makes more sense now that I have not reached out to. I do believe though this system is certainly coming to an end, Jesus’s prophecies are more blatantly present and reoccurring than ever.There is light being shed. The evidence is so clear, especially now hearing this news of the Governing Body’s tactics in handling fellow brothers and sisters.

                • Henry H (Bible Student)

                  Hi Brandi,
                  Welcome to the group.In reading your comments you certainly show that you have a hunger and thirst for righteousness. Remember Jesus said such ones shall be satisfied.(Matt.5:6) I’ve come to realize that compared to my 36 years a JW I’ve learned so much more in 5 years as a Bible Student.
                  Another thing you will began to realize is that the friends are truly loving and caring. I was struck by your words that the JW elders didn’t make shepherding calls on you. Well I understand how you feel. When I was in the hospital over a number of years only once during those years did they visit me while I was there. The only time they phoned me was to get my field service time!

                  I just want to encourage you to keep studying and talking with those who truly interested in God’s word the Bible and faithfully applying it in their lives.

                  I pray that you will be able to get away from the rules of enslavement to the Governing Body and enter into the Christian freedom that Jehovah offers. (Gal.5:1,6,7)

                  • Jay

                    We are all slaves. However we must decide who we will slave for. God or Satan. Like it or not God uses a channel in which he delivers his word and instructions. Usually these instructions are through able bodied men. This is the part that is most difficult adjusting to for some. Dealing with imperfect men. Congregations vary just like imperfect elders. If we keep this in mind it will help us to be mindful of their imperfect nature as well as our own imperfections. You will be offended from time to time. This is due to imperfection. You will also offend others from time to time. Same principle applies. Usually people who have complaints against the governing body are seeing things one way. They fail to recognize their own shortcomings. Instead, they focus on shortcomings that may or may not be justified. This is usually due to a lack of humility on the accusers part. Humility helps a person overlook others shortcomings as they would want others to overlook theirs. It is a 2 way relationship. And by doing so you will avoid being an accuser of those you call your brothers and sisters. When you become an accuser you take the same position that Satan took when he was in heaven. He became an accuser of their heavenly brothers and sisters. This is what we want to avoid. Learn to tolerate the imperfections of others as you would want them to do for you. A lot of that stuff can be overlooked in all honesty. Think about it. It is not as bad as you think. I usually ask myself, are they being unrighteous? Is it a serious sin? If not, can I overlook it by forgiving others? If the answer is yes then let your yes mean yes and learn to forgive your brothers. Forgiveness is the key.

                    • just Stay Sweet and Good

                      Love is the key. Jehovah doesn’t let us get away with anything. We are not to hold a grudge but we are required to reprove our brother lest we fall into the same sin. To not speak out against proven wrongdoing is the sin of omission. Sins of omission are just as deadly as sins of commission. Jehovah will not allow anyone to take up his name in vain. We all stand before the throne of grace as equals……..the wayward sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      The Channel today: John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
                      Psa. 119:105 Your WORD is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

                      You say: “Usually these instructions are thru able bodied men.” Please give scriptural support of who these abled bodied men are after Jesus Christ appeared and gave us the right to have a personal relationship with God.

                      You say offenses should be over looked: This my friend is not an offense, this is criminal.
                      http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/12/dozens-come-forward-to-report-abuse-by-jehovahs-witnesses/
                      You say: “It is not as bad as you think” When you were being raped was it bad, well maybe not but you can’t speak for others. When you were being shunned as a teenager and put out in the street, maybe it wasn’t bad for you, but don’t make blanket statements for others.

                      Why not show compassion on what all these poor souls have suffered at the hands of these men. Feel what they feel please before you just say oh, just forgive it, the governing body is imperfect. No they are evil, letting children and women die. You seem to know there are problems so help don’t dismiss these people!
                      1John 3:17 “If someone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need but shows no compassion–how can God’s love be in that person?”

                      Please give scriptural support for the organization of the so called Jehovah witnesses and it’s diabolical governing body being God’s channel for all men.
                      Here is what your organization teaches, please prove they are his way, truth and light by scripture please.

                      As we all know it is impossible to make any sense of the total mess in the Bible so God created the Society and its governing body of 7-9 very imperfect hostile men to teach families by means of the Watchtower to help mankind:
                      *** w81 12/1 27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.—Compare Acts 8:30-40
                      What scriptural support for this “Mother”, For this Organization mentioned? God’s word can speak independently and stand on it’s own. It did long before the creation of this man made organization.
                      *** w57 5/1 274 Show Respect for Jehovah’s Organization ***The world is full of Bibles, which Book contains the commandments of God. Why, then, do the people not know which way to go? Because they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. Jehovah God has provided his holy written Word for all mankind and it contains all the information that is needed for men in taking a course leading to life. But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: “Light is sown for the righteous.” (Ps. 97:11) It is through his organization that God provides this light that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother..

                      But the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS:
                      Jesus says: John 14: 26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
                      1Thess. 5:16-18 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

                      Please go here to get scriptural support if you will to prove just the OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE SO CALLED “JEHOVAH’witness organization says http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/jehovahs-witnesses-answers/organization/
                      Scroll down and pick out the many subjects and get the truth about what the Bible says on this man made organization. Please do not accuse the victims!

                    • Richard Tazzyman

                      Hello Jay,I used to think like you from the mid fifties to the very early 1990s.But during this time I saw so much that was wrong with the descisions of the FDSC(Note the scriptual references do not speak of a class,but of a slave)When I questioned some of their decisions,I was told to wait on Jehovah & he would set these things right in due time & of course the well known statement”They are only Imperfect men”,which in the long term is a cop out for them.Take fpr example when heart transplants & organ donation became available,What was their stance.They said that to have a donated organ put in our body was the Same as Cannibalism & It was not proper for us to accept this treatment!I wonder how many brothers died & or suffered from this?
                      Also let us look at the appointment of Elders.Since the time of Bro Russell,the bible students have always had elders.But when Rutherford became president of the WTBTS He dismissed all elders world wide & apointed puppetts in each congregation & called them congregation overseers,thus there was one man in charge of each congregation! Then Low & behold ,new light in the early seventies,Elders were again to be appointed world wide in each congregation.Funny how the holy spirit(acording to them) could get it so wrong,& the light had to Dim first so that it could get brighter.Of course we could go on to subjects like protecting men in the congregations from being exposed to the Law/Justice system for their vile acts against poor innocent children(because of them twisting the scripture that says two witnesses are required)Leave the breaking of law to the officers that have been put there by our heavenly father,& let the elders do what they are supposed to do,that being the spiritual protectors of the flock.Think about these things,ponder on them & then ask yourself,are they really the channel of the holy spirit?

                    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                      All very interesting… Jehovah has used kings, prophets, dreams, etc etc… through all human history to speak to men and according to scripture has spoken to us through his son. (Heb 1:1-2). The apostles guided by holy spirit helped bring all that was spoken by Jesus and taught to us in those very scriptures we now have. John 14:26) anything which has been led by the spirit would not need changed as it is from God (2 pet 1:20-21) men fail time and again at such things and yet still claim to speak for God yet God cannot lie nor does he fail at making truth known clearly even through imperfect men. The interpretation of the “slave” has brought many beyond what is written. 1cor. 4:5-6). Are not Jesus’ words as part of a simple lesson enough for a child to learn? How have men taken this simple meal and made it to be something that stumbles so many? Matt 18:3-6) The manna was not enough for the Israelites and aparently neither is it enough for most today. Is not Jesus the manna? (John 6:40-41)Is casting aside Jesus for the leading of men wise? Who is Lord???

                    • Henry Henson

                      Hi Jay
                      I’ve noticed there has been a number of replies to your post. I’ve been waiting to read your response. Anyway I assume you had read the previous comments that was posted before mine. I was just responding with encouragement to a sister I felt needed it.(Matt.9:36) Many JW’s who are leaving the organization and need to talk are able to do that without repercussions here.I wish you were as quick to defend the lowly ones as you are in defending the Elders,exalt Jesus as often as you exalt “God’s channel the governing body.” From my over 48 years of experience I’ve seen many many actions of the governing body and elders that goes beyond my responsibility of forgiveness but rather their answering to Jehovah and his son Jesus for what they’ve done.I hope as you are patrolling the Internet you will realize what it means to be a WITNESS OF JESUS.(Acts 1:8,Phil.2:9 and John 5:23)

                    • Just say sweet and good

                      Jay When Satan was called an accuser it was a lie when he accused Jehovah God of not having mans best interests at heart. If the accusation is true, in the case of one brother pointing out the obvious disregard for Jehovahs’s established precedents and laws, it is not a fraudulent accusation but one that required the accused to take appropriate steps to reconcile the offended brother. Go first and make peace with your brother Matt 18:15 needs to be attitude of the powerful people that run JW.ORG. They have embarrassed the rank and file to a point they are dead in the water so to speak. How can the ordinary JW really defend the indefensible without calling to question their own personal integrity? You are known by the people you associate with and by what you will tolerate and what you will condemn. JW’s leaders have worn out their welcome.

  • Brandi

    You are all very well educated. We can all agree on that. Another thing I think we can all agree on is that the only thing we are commissioned to do as disciples of Christ is to follow his steps closely and imitate him. The only real key to salvation as well as the only way to teach others; by example and our works. No one knows who will die and who will survive. Leaning upon our own understanding causes divisions and strife. Leaning upon our own understanding creates pride and a haughty disposition. Truly no one has a the full scope of what is accurately known as Truth. Only our King, Jesus knows. Why are we trying to prove points, when we are only commissioned to lead lives that mimic Jesus’s works as well as His personality? There will be those you never imagined falling to your left and to your right, so who are we to state what is correct and incorrect in a debate against each other? At the end of the day, what we are speculating almost seems foolish to be speculating, when our focus should be aligning ourselves (our thoughts and disposition) to be imitators of Jesus. After doing so, we will be more equipped to help other do the same by being approachable just as Jesus was. Helping them come to the true knowledge of Jesus and Jehovah, which is what we should want for all humans to live forever in true happiness and love.

    • Ted R.

      Hi Brandi
      I agree with you that we are all to follow in the footsteps of Lord Jesus to the best of our ability. We never want to be so dogmatic as to think that we have the only way to salvation or that we have the complete truth. This is why I like the Bible Students. There is room for disagreement and respect for those with opposing views. Any organization that claims to be Gods only avenue of salvation shows the ultimate prideful and haughty attitude! Any organization that promotes the shunning of family members for simply disagreeing with that organization shows the ultimate lack of the love that Christ promoted. Not even the Pharisees who Christ condemned went that far. This is my problem with the JW organization. Doctrines and prophetic understandings to me are secondary to the love and unity we find in Christ. The Bible, not the Watchtower or Governing Body, should be our guide. The scriptures point out not to put our trust in mortal man. Unfortunately the organization is made up of mortal men, capable of making mistakes. That’s OK. I don’t feel that anyone has the complete and only truth. When an organization starts legislating and dictating to others what they should believe and encouraging its members to shun those who disagree, that is a problem. I have been a JW for 50 years. I have seen the changes and complete reversals of doctrine. I remember people dying for not accepting an organ transplant or blood fractions that today are accepted. Christian freedom is based on a personal understanding of scripture and the development of Christian conscience based on scripture, not the enforcement of the conscience and understanding of a Governing Body or self proclaimed organization chosen by God. We all stand and fall on our own merits and relationship with Christ. Jehovah and Christ are our judges and lawgivers, not the Governing Body or religious leaders of ANY organization. Jesus is the only mediator between God and men, not an organization. As far as prophetic understanding, that will be revealed in Gods due time. True and complete understanding of Gods requirements will come after Satan has been abyssed and Gods Kingdom is ruling without hindrance. Christ gave his life as a ransom for ALL. The judgment of most of will come during the millennial reign of Christ. Developing our love for Christ now will make it much easier when that time comes. This is the primary disagreement, I believe, between the Bible Students and JW’s. Shunning, especially family members is wrong and scriptural. Only in very extreme cases should anyone be cut off, and that should be a personal decision of the persons involved, not a dogmatic organizational decision based on Talmudic rules and laws.

      • Brandi

        Hello Ted R.,

        I agree. That makes me happy at my heart to find like-minded individuals who promote dedication and deep respect for Jesus’s kingship and it’s importance to salvation of ALL men. 🙂 I also enjoy that point, too, about how “ALL men” is stressed to show the unconditional, non prejudice love Jesus exhibited while on Earth. That’s I strive to imitate.

    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

      Hi Brandi and welcome,
      Yes Truth is from God alone (John 17:17) Even Jesus when on earth admitted to not knowing ALL,(speaking of that day and hour) but only the Father in heaven. Many groups claim to be the truth, NONE are the truth. Bible students have a better understanding of truth as found in Gods word than everyone I have seen including Jw’s as they have discarded and changed the truth they once had for lies and personal interpretations to mislead. I think if we stick to scripture, let the bible interpret itself and restrain from interpolations, calculations or speculations, and allow ourselves to be guided by the spirit as opposed to trying to be a guide, we will do well. Most importantly as you have pointed out, imitating Jesus, being a follower of him is what we should strive to do daily. No man or group can tell us or interfere with our personal relationship, it is up to NO group to decide our standing with Jehovah, and NO group can validate nor can they decide wether our baptism and dedication is worthy of our being called brother or sister. Forgive me for ranting, I must share one last thought in response to your comment, as I can say we know at least this from Jesus words, (John 5:28) that ALL in the graves shall hear his voice” because in (1 Tim 2:6) Jesus is a “ransom for ALL” because (1 Cor.15:22) as in Adam ALL die but in Christ ALL are made alive” This word ALL is a favorite of mine and I love plain scriptural statements that are quite impossible to change or interpret any way besides what they say, though some like the JW’s have certainly tried to do just that. Thank you.
      Brandon

    • Anon CJ

      Brandi
      When the Bible Says not to lean on our own understanding it means lean on God’s understanding and not our own. It means I should follow his guidance and not my own. For example when the churches today say that “well I was born this way therefore God created me gay” Then they allow them to marry in the churches. They leaned on their own understanding. They ignore what the Bible says about it. It does not mean “Lean on the Watchtower understanding.”

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        AnonCJ hello. I believe there are a lot of medical issues that we aren’t aware of. Some life experiences especially before sexual definition takes place (before about 3years) that can make us a certain way by other humans. My extended family has a metabolic issue brought on by medicine their mom had to take to keep from miscarriaging boy babies. If she had a girl baby within 2 years of taking this medicine the girl babies would be sterile with some other sexual abnormalities. They found all three of her girls had the problem not just in the first 2 years. Suppose I was not alive and knew about this to tell them? (parents are dead now) So we all have things to cope with and God help those of us with daily struggles that are a part of our physical bodies.
        New international Bible Matt. 19:12
        “For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others–and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

        • Anon CJ

          Oh I don’t deny that. I’m saying many will say they are born this way therefore God made us this way and will lean on that instead of looking as to what God says about it.

    • greg (Bible Student)

      Greetings Brandi.

      I’m actually replying to your introduction that Jacqueline posted on the Testimony page wherein you said, “It is frustrating and infuriating and depressing.” I hear you loud and clear. Sadly, your situation is not unique. But that also means: Happily, you’re not alone. 🙂

      So perhaps you will permit to also say “WELCOME!” It’s truly a pleasure to make your acquaintance and to read your sincere expressions.

      You are among friends here. We don’t need to know about your past. You need not seek our forgiveness. It is sufficient joy for us to see that despite all you’ve been going through, you are still determined to work continuously and progressively at imitating Christ Jesus.

      Please accept our warm greetings and hands of friendship. Feel free to ask as many questions as you can dream up. I speak from my own experience when I try to assure you that your questions will be as welcome here as you are. I can also say that there have been several times when Jacqueline has given comforting words to me that have teleported me back to times on my great-grandma’s lap when I was very young and very much hurting and my grandma would be there to console me. I am confident you will find that kind of caring from Jacqueline and others here.

      If you are willing and able, feel free to join us on one of the Testimony Meetings this weekend. We’d love to hear your voice and any expressions you’d like to share. You can find the times and links on the main page of this site.

      Warmly,
      -greg

  • traveler

    The term “teacher” keeps coming up. I thought I’d say this in answer. I speak and think pretty much the way you see it on paper. My wife, an educated person, edits it, she says to make it easier for people to understand. I think it’s because I’m a horrible speller. We wish to share and learn, our only point. If you personally find our style of expression lacking you are not alone. There have only been a few times when, either forced by circumstance (elders) or because of similar frame of mind we have been able to carry on a complete consideration with others. I would say that people have very different ideas of simple. I met and cultivated a friend and Bible student who was writing his dissertation in for his PhD in philosophy at Duquesne University. He began our relationship by explaining that he was very busy, but if I would let him explain himself in a short statement, waiting until he had finished to rebut and then do so point for point in the right order, he would entertain my question and the idea of a relationship. His short statement lasted three and one half hours; I answered. This was one of the most enjoyable meetings of my life, but probably not one you would call your cup of tea. If you have the gift to simplify please exercise it on my behalf and translate. I am not trying to overwhelm you with information or impress anybody on any level. I will try, but take my wife’s word for it, my spelling skills probably are a lost cause.

    *** Bible Citations ***
    (James 3:1) Not many of YOU should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

    • Anon CJ

      I am a teacher. I have my degree in mathematics and I am no way lacking in comprehension of what you’re saying. To effectively reach someone you have to bread it down. Placing a page of info overload does not hold the attention of us. Several of us have stated that we don’t read all you say. However, unless you have the Holy Spirit you cannot see the truth. Much of what you say I used to say as well I used to go online and search out people and find them to try and refute. I would go into trinity debates and just refute. We see the errors in your posts because we have the truth and have found much of what you say to be in error. God does not have an organization and he is not going to destroy people who are wicked today. Only the anointed can go into second death in this age. Not the world of mankind. I suggest you read the Divine Plan of the Ages and see the truth.

      • traveler

        Hi Anon, I’m sorry to hear that you had truth to offer but have stopped putting it out there. The nature of presenting the truth or logic in relation to the Bible is that the Bible tells you it’s a forgone conclusion that it will be rejected by all but a “few” and if the time was not cut short no one would listen.
        As far as the “Divine Plan of the Ages and see the truth” I have read it. It won’t give you the answers you need, just a direction to go.

      • traveler

        Hi Anon, as a brother I appreciate that you’ve gone on sites like the trinity sites and tried to refute their “theory”. I’m sure you must have found, as I did, that there was understanding of a great many disconnected facts. I too used an approach. I just showed them that they had no overview that allowed for a truly loving God. I found that it does not matter to most whether it’s right or logically related to the Bible’s overview. Most just want to be comfortable with what they have been taught by those they are sure must have more insight, those that formed the “new” religious direction they now have a standing in.

        I appreciate also that you state openly that you’ve gone through “stands” for other points of view and have changed as your insight has grown. This is why I find your statement that “we’re wrong on so many levels” encouraging.I have seen this thought stated many, many, times by others. I have the advantage of knowing in advance the range of your understanding, given the basic format where Russell left off his pursuit. While every teacher, Russell included, hopes to learn new things “along side of” those he educates, having educated other minds to the level of insight he has, I believe the temptation to take as “personal power” the insights shared by the teacher (I am of the school of Michelangelo) or God is great. Those “blindly” following become the majority, as they did even in Jesus’ day. These blind followers will form a new sect “within the Christian congregation” as they claim, based on the now “written in stone inspired doctrine”.

        This happen to Russell; it happened when a Pope was elected as the “inspired channel”; it happened when Rutherford separated Jehovah’s witnesses as the “anointed of God”; it’s happening now with the Witness organization stating that the ruling body is “the channel of God”.

        Yes a long way of saying, “I get where you are at, and it makes me optimistic for you”.

        One more thing you might like to calculate into your thoughts. Fifteen to twenty years ago the U.S. government put out a study that stated that six out of ten children in the era of the “baby boomers” had been sexually or mentally abused, or both. Six out of ten or breaking it down three out of five. The reason I’m bring this up is that these kids, now adults, have some interesting side effects from their experiences:
        1. Trust issues. Their trust, broken at varying levels depending on how close the person committing the abuse, causes them to have trust issues.
        2. Sexually aggressive. Having their identity of significance established around sexuality at a young age, they are sexually aggressive, although not being able to handle intimacy because of their trust issues.
        3. Dysfunctional. As a result of these experiences and the resulting issues, these individuals are dysfunctional, and it has been documented they raise dysfunctional children.
        4. Control issues. Having those in authority be the ones who committed the abuse, these children, now grown, have become highly educated so that they can control those around them. Now the authority themselves these “survivors” are not open to any agreement.

        The list goes on but the point is they are the “majority” during the “time of the end”. So three out of five fit this scenario. These “survivors” being sexually aggressive and it is known that humanity has a general weakness in this area, it is reasonable to assume that most of the couples out there are married to one of these “survivors”.

        Why have I risked yet one more long post? Well in the pursuit of truth, one needs to think about the fact that if the majority around you is agreeing with you, you may want to take a harder look at the “normal” train of thought that they are putting forward as logical. So the Bible states accurately, “few” will find the path.

        • Jay

          Excellent read. I do have a question regarding your stats and sexual abuse. I don’t doubt anything you’ve stated but what is your point? I may have missed it. Are you saying that babyboomers today are in connection with a generation prophesied about in the bible? Do these individuals or “survivors” makeup god’s people today? And if so, what comes next?

    • greg (Bible Student)

      traveler,

      I concur with Anon CJ’s reply. Arguing about how short or how long the posts are does not address the many glaring and basic flaws I see in both the content and circular logic used in your posts.

      -greg

      • Anon CJ

        This is what I stated to him earlier.

        “As a teacher we learn to adapt do our students. If my students tell me I’m moving too fast then I need to slow down. Or if one says can you say that in fewer words I adjust. But by you’re response basically summed up “well the problem is not me it’s your attention span and that’s not a problem with me but with the Bible.” This is incorrect. The Bible says at

        Proverbs 17:27
        “A truly wise person uses few words…..”

        I believe some work on humility would be good for you. I used to be a JW and I had that same problem you do. I thought I was in the right when people didn’t listen that it was them not me. Now I see that it was me not them. Have a great day.”

      • traveler

        Ok simple: Jesus was resurrected to the earth through the promises made to Abraham to inherit the earth, and given back his original form, one which could take on human form. All of this took place before he finished his work on earth.

        (John 20:17) . . .Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

        Then those in the memorial tombs, or tombs if you wish, who hear Christ, receive the out- resurrection or first resurrection if you wish, to earth to stand along with the living. They all are changed “twinkling” and then the “sons of Israel”, true “Jews”, according to the covenant made with them hear the call to meet Jesus in the air.

        (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) 16 because the Lord himself will DESCEND from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;. . .

        (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) 50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

        So no matter what your thoughts on the “sons of Israel” or true Jews and the covenant made with them by Jesus for 144000 to rule over earth, they resurrected to the earth, to inherit a kingdom interest only over the earth. Their citizenship was reserved for them in the heavens from the day that Jesus ascended to his father, because he was to be ruler over the kingdom on earth, our God-given natural dwelling place.

        I suppose I could just post all the comments of all the witnesses and all the people who believe in the “theory of the trinity” who we’ve gone down this train of thought with, at the very least it is a many thousand page book. In every case it starts and ends in “why you?”; this has happened hundreds of times, always, when the individual has to accept the conclusion that this is, in fact, the only possibility presented in the Bible. This question, “Why you?” is not a valid question. When faced with a rational conclusion reached by you or any person, it is the responsibility of all to present ourselves with our power of reason. That is the sacred service we give to God. None of us are “THE one”, he has already come.

        (Romans 12:1, 2) 12 Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason. 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

        (1 Timothy 4:15, 16) . . .Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, that your advancement may be manifest to all [persons]. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you. . .

        • Anon CJ

          Your comments are all over the place. I’m going to leave you to your errors and believe what you want. So many errors can’t even begin. But you’re free to believe whatever you want.

        • Anon CJ

          By the way your reply has nothing to do with that I stated. You’re trying to show off knowledge of “exanastasis” which your concept of is incorrect. So I’ll leave you to your errors.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveller, Twitter has a word limit because sometimes we want to preach and teach without allowance for back and forth. A blog is the best way but not a website where there are definite subjects.
      For instance since we have been discussing the contact form for this site have people asking, what are the main differences between Bible students and the witnesses. I am doing a slow fade? He nor most of those coming here are interested in these new thoughts. They are trying to escape a cult and this site is for that. It has a target market.
      Traveller if you are reading you will notice your comments defeats this purpose. You have thoughts that should be said but you need a blog and the two of you can run it and debate with those that have escaped already and are doing okay.
      It just isn’t fair if you are doing okay to cast your thoughts on those that are basic and need some support. Those persons don’t want yet another thought or teachings to deal with.
      I hope you understand we are not saying you can’t post here but discuss the topic that you are clicking on, then allow comment. Remember you are helping not debating on here. Hopefully this is taken in the spirit I intend. I can be too blunt sometimes, but not intended. Jacqueline

      This is an example of a blog site: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/115238/my-censured-open-letter-governing-body
      They have topics but no articles at all, they just talk on that topic then move on to another one.
      They don’t try to teach each other by long lectures and you know what their subject is. Yours are for private study and comprehension. Take care

      • traveler

        Hi Jacqueline, I see that you feel a need to protect those who have questions that you feel you can help them with borrowing from progress brother Russell made and from what you’ve learned along the way. I believe this section of your site was set up for “anointed talk” and have made posts based on this. I admit I’ve just found the reply button:) I would like to say I am not one of Jehovah’s witnesses, their overview of what the Bible says is no more workable than those who believe in the “theory of the trinity” or brother Russell or brother Franz. A God of infinite power with no beginning and no end who would create this reality we are experiencing, where millions upon millions are experiencing the horrors of torture, starvation and sickness would be a God that no sane person would follow with hope.

        It is the language behind the words of the Bible that is inspired. This is why the Bible says not to argue about words. Language is the conceptual image and the Bible’s writers all use the same language when expressing the true nature of reality. This is why translation does not lose the original meaning. I have no wish to do more than share, I’m not trying to show off as Anon suggests. I’m just trying to point out the insights that with God’s spirit I’ve been able to learn. This question, “why you” is asked no matter what old established group is approached, no matter who brings in new thoughts. The Bible points out quite clearly that only a small number through time will go in through the “narrow gate”, having found the truth. So the idea that a large orthodox following has the “right” answers is out of the realm of possibility in the first place. By the nature of what’s happening, a large group will only have “facts”, always learning but not coming to any overall understanding. The “remnant of mankind” that the Bible says will exercise the possibility, the “hope”, Jesus held out to “all mankind” to be saved, was termed “remnant” and “few” for a reason. I personally know of no translation of the Bible that has not kept this statement intact. I’m sorry again if it seems I tried to over whelm the site. My intent was to save time showing an overview that would allow for the fastest progress. I drew on this approach having had the experience, “why you” many, many, times.

        I do not wish to put anything in a “way” that would discourage any brother or sister, no matter what level their understanding, either above or below where we’re at. As I’ve said before, I believe we learn when we gain “understanding of overview” along with our facts, “beside” one another. I will try to offer constructive insight on a broader range of topics in “small” doses, hoping that the brothers and sisters will either help me to arrive at a new “logical” “overview” to use the facts they can share, or the other “way” around as I share.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Traveller I really do appreciate what you are saying and I have understood you all along. You have something to share. Websites have themes and target markets.
          This one is to show differences between Bible students and the J witnesses to see if they can get on their feet from the error of doctrine taught by the witnesses. Most coming here are really NOT concerned with other thoughts on other views. They are running and wobbling, we try to help them get on their feet without giving them something else to consider. They need a break.
          Now you come on with something entirely different.
          So I offer to you the opportunity to start your own blogspot. They are free. Put your link here and the people interested in debate and love to
          go thru all the talk on every subject can do so. There is nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks.
          We have to maintain some sort of decorum here.
          The organization sometimes plant people on a site to disrupt with this free for all. When we ask them to open a blog to go for it and post the link here, they find no one follows them from this site on the blog but they do get debaters. Because this is not your target market.
          That is what you want is your debaters and there are many out there who will debate all night.
          You say “anointed talk”, I personally don’t believe in such a thing but some do on this site, so we put this topic. But this site has a theme.

          You are not even a witness, so now I see why you can’t grasp what is going on here. Open your blog. Give us the link here and let them follow you over to it. Thanks and I wish you well as you spread your knowledge and hopefully someone has the time to debate you.

          • traveler

            Hi Jacqueline, I understand what you want. I was a witness for 45 years. The ideas I’ve put forward are for the most part already printed present truth within the organization, and they have already confirmed that, while not known by the general congregation, these ideas are true. As I have said, they use the same line of reason as you that the congregation is weak and cannot handle the truth. And I would reply in the same manner to you: if you are not going to teach something that is logical (the truth), why bother teaching them at all. I appreciate that it takes a great deal of effort to work with the congregation. In all of the approximately 43 years I dealt with committees and elders and writing the organization at their request, I never raised these ideas in the congregation. I had hoped that once I pointed out the truth about resurrection and they agreed, they would take the lead and follow the path from there. Of course that did not happen. The organization would always send a request to the local elders to help with this question and the local elders would always say, “write back to the organization, they are not getting the full extent of the ramifications of this”. Of course, even while waiting on the organization things opened up, once we knew the basic “hope of THE resurrection”, and the letters became longer and longer. Finally we wrote our last letter that took one year of daily writing. This letter was 265 pages long and we put everything in order according to the Bible. We sent this letter off and asked to be disassociated from the organization. We also pointed out that only one member in each congregation was appointed as a member of the organization, but if they felt one of us was it, to disassociate both of us, we had not joined. We made it clear we were not asking to be disassociated from the congregation. Jesus told the nation of Israel they were not God’s people now that they had rejected him. Paul pointed out that the nation of Israel as a whole, were not even Jews. These Biblical facts were somewhat like what you are telling those who claim to be anointed, “you are not”.

            I see that you appear to see no problem with this revelation for those who are weak . But it is your site, I assume, or at least it seems you are a major voice here. From now on I will only offer short, one paragraph or shorter answers with appropriate scriptural reference on any given topic. Even so, I think you’ll soon see that either using your line of reason based on Russell or on the organization, the Bible is quite clear about what God has in store, and both Russell and the JW organization have only started “UP” the path. I thank you for your patience and assure you I am just as interested in the weak as you are. I hope that they too will find a firm foundation to build on rather than getting caught in the endless cycle of learning and learning, but never coming to an accurate understanding. One that shows them as individuals how to make progress “UP” the Path, how to move from milk to meat, and how to become “taught ones” themselves. I acknowledge what you and Anon have said about keeping it simple, as needed. I hope at some point, however, that your site will have a section for more advanced Bible Students.
            Your brother and sister, the travelers.

            • Anon CJ

              You think too highly of yourself. For example, many people hold degrees from religious institution that know more about the Bible than I do for a historical point of views yet are incorrect in their theology. Your thoughts however are incorrect. You believe what you believe and you seek to down others that don’t agree with you as not knowing or caring to know YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF TRUTH. You basically called yourself an “advanced Bible Student” yet seem to be totally unique in your views and then down us in sublte undercuts because we don’t agree with your You may have some knowledge but you have no humility which is a characteristic of having Christlike disposition. Like when I told you I was a teacher and you posted that scripture that not all should be teachers. Think I didn’t see that? By the way your attitude is still just like the JWs.
              And by the way if you were as “Advanced” as you claim you are then you are totally blinded to the fact that Israel is still God’s people. Jehovah offered the earthly hope to Israel. Then when Jesus came and offered them the kingdom of the heavens many of them rejected. However they were not cast off forever because the Bible is full of scriptures that show Israel is still the inheritors of the earthly kingdom and will be the “ancient Worthies”. Amos 9:14,15 shows Israel will be brought back to their land. This was not fulfilled at any other time because they were uprooted again in 70-73AD. Read Romans 11. God has not completely cast them off. Please educate yourself before you insult us any further.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Traveller hello, you seem to be hung up on who has “control” on this site or say so. You still have an organization mentality with a one person or organization. Well let me inform you.
              AnonCJ runs a huge facebook page with tons of comments every day. All of the other commenters on here are Bible students and Kent is one of the moderators for a worldwide program.
              Yes I am one of the admin for this site. The elders running this site sees everything you say and all of us and will pop on if we are not knowing precisely what to say. GREAT OVERSEERS! They don’t micro manage and that bothers you that I am a woman.
              I am reading right thru your comments and keeping it short. Please get over it. We have our ministries and we are going to do it, so stop trying to establish an organization here.
              You have so much knowledge that is important it seems but you refuse to hit your target market, hmmm have you tried and no one listened? AnonCJ read part of what you wrote to me and I stopped him as I was driving and wondered to him why you want to push your “New Light” on me. The watchtower org wasn’t interested but you can be confident within yourself that this is true.
              Why you feel you have to share with me. I have a lot of thoughts but not everyone needs me to shove it down their throat.
              Get please your blogspot, post the link here and let ones wanting to debate and listen to you do so.
              I am not wearing myself out getting on your banner.
              I help persons that are by their own decision decide to leave the Jehovah witness organization and it’s governingbody and have question or need help steading themselves. Who want to know what was originally taught by the Bible students.
              I can’t jump all over the place with you respectively. I will not reply to you again. This makes no sense, you are wasting time deliberately. You have been doing this for weeks. Get over who comments here it is not your blogspot.

              PS: To the audience reading here, I think I know who this is and it is personal but he is not slick enough.

  • traveler

    Anon CJ
    And by the way. You’re preaching to the choir about the name Jehovah. Then you also know that you cannot say “Jesus, Jeremiah, Joseph, Job, John., Jezebel, Jacob”. So be consistent when showing we cannot say YHWH ——-> JHVH.

    Hi Anon CJ,
    I think this is what you want, to stand for truth in the format you are accustomed to. Brother Russell’s answers and format of choice However, came more often in the form of books.

    Short answer, historically provable and most important Biblically provable.

    You have missed the point, the names Jesus, Jeremiah, Joseph, Job, John, Jezebel, and Jacob are all “English” words as is “Yahweh”.

    “Jehovah” is not an English word, but a representation of the sounds of a mispronounced word of Latin origin.

    If finding truth is a matter of life and death, as it is, then we suggest that do as you do when reading the Bible. Read to find truth, accept what you can see, and think about the rest. No one sets down to read and make sense of the Bible in it’s entirety in one setting. You ask for answers put simply, but some answers have longer explanations than others, even when put simply.

    Using the most accurate statement of God’s name is an excellent test of your stand before God.

    (John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .

    (2 Corinthians 13:5) 5 Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith, keep proving what YOU yourselves are.. . .

    We accept truth and stand for it, or chose not to, simple.

    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

      Hello,
      A question about the out resurrection or the Ekanastasis mentioned by Paul in Phillipians i think… I have heard this and have looked over it before, there are many christian groups who speak of it yet I must ask what is it that the rest of those who do not obtain the Ekanastasis are to receive according to how you read the scriptures?
      Lee

      • traveler

        Lee Anthony (Brandon)
        October 3, 2017 at 1:05 pm • Reply
        Hello,
        A question about the out resurrection or the Ekanastasis mentioned by Paul in Phillipians i think… I have heard this and have looked over it before, there are many christian groups who speak of it yet I must ask what is it that the rest of those who do not obtain the Ekanastasis are to receive according to how you read the scriptures?
        Lee
        Hi Lee, well the message of the Bible is clear to all in this regard, I think, that it means Life to those who “call” on the God of truth. If you are a son of man, of Adam, you have always been dead legally to God. your inheritance is the life span given through that line.

        The term “resurrection” as mentioned means to stand before God and receive the reward for your actions. We each have a stand before God from birth. This is legally dead under the headship of our house. When we reach adulthood we then take our own stand, as a responsible adult. The Bible says that we each “sin in our turn”, meaning we come under the judgment of the law and remain dead. So you see standing before God is a thing we’ve already done. Our actions though are a different matter if we are still conscious. While we have existence we can start to “make our minds over”. This is first done by exercising the realization that God exists and he has sent his son to reveal a way out of the condition of “dead to God” . If you do this you will cross from death (legally dead) to life (alive to God legally). We as well as God himself are bound by these laws. This is why Jesus as a child was legally dead to God even though he was perfect and without sin. However, unlike us he did not “sin in HIS turn” and thus fulfilled the law, winning a way out for us all legally, the ability to “call on God” using the truth he is revealing through his son.

        So longer story made shorter, those who pursue, or in other words “call on God”, by exercising these understandings become God’s sons by adoption and come under his headship and promises to mankind to “save the world of mankind” through the truth. Mankind is destroying the world along with their chances of survival. God will save the earth by removing those destroying it and with the purchased remnant of mankind, repopulate it . This remnant are those in the memorial tombs, those in God’s memory as his sons along with those “alive legally” at Armageddon. As a result of resurrection or being weighed, forgiven of sin, they receive from their Father a return to consciousness as humans to exist on the earth or live on through Armageddon never seeing death(again) (out- resurrection) . Those who did not call on God just remain dead, in the grave as a result of their resurrection before God and receive only the reward that their gods can give . Now the grave (no memorial tombs left in it ) and those dead in it are turned over into the keeping of Jesus to await the coming destruction. The reason that these unconscious dead are kept by Jesus is that legally Yahweh is bound to allow the completion of the asking of the question before he can destroy any being within the question . At the completion of the question he is no longer responsible in anyway for those in the grave. He is legally free to let them have the final reward, destruction in the lake of fire, as a result of the direction taken. There is one thing unique about the test at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ over the earth. Those in the “sea of perfect humanity” who choose to believe Satan will become legally dead, no longer a part of the house of God. Along with Satan and those he has mislead they will experience the second death.

        While love hopes all things it does not make all things possible for mankind or God.

        • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

          Traveler,
          Thank you for your reply. I am one to study things and decide what the truth is based on the scriptures. I consider things from many different viewpoints however as my background is not a simple one. I was into pagan religion (nature worship, witchcraft), Taoism, numerous denominations of christendom, and Jehovah’s witnesses as well. All have different points on life and death and other matters, none scriptural as a whole when it comes to black and white, what does it say in the bible. A couple things I don’t remember seeing is somethings you mentioned… What is the “Asking of the question”? And Are not all things possible with God? Is he not from everlasting to everlasting, one without beginning, who knows the beginning from the end? Some of these things you have mentioned in your post and others I have never heard and would like to see the scriptural references for the thoughts that I have seen you post as truth revealed from holy spirit. Though I am a Bible student, I do not believe that any group on earth today has all truth nor any one person, the devil has mislead the ENTIRE inhabited earth… This means ALL, just like the scripture that says the ransom is for ALL. All means ALL. So just for all to note, holy spirit or not we are in no position to be able to say that truth is absolute truth outside of clear scripture, even those who feel they are begotten and for that reason could not possibly be wrong on some point or another. So this is not just for you my brother, but for anyone reading this post, I see this a lot on many sites and from many groups. Too many feel that theirs is the only one and that God blesses only a certain few. Perhaps this was true in the past and it could be today, who am I to know the mind of the ALMIGHTY, but it seems that even the anointed are still just human and as a result also imperfect and as has happened for thousands of years and likely will happen for a few more, certain men or groups or religions etc will always feel they are divinely inspired and could not possibly be wrong because of their holy books and dreams and divine inspiration… All this leads to in this imperfect world is argument, contention, hatred, murder, or just plain lack of love which leads to any number of things. That being said, I apologize to anyone who takes offence at anything written. I must rest here, I try and be humble and show love to all yet it is hard when I see it little from others to do so. I pray that the Almighty and his Son Jesus will not be as unjust and unloving as many portray them to be using their own words. May we all do our best to simply show love…. mercy…. and if possible be as was Jesus.

          • traveler

            Thank you Lee for your response. “All” in the case of humanity does not mean everyone. Satan tries to mislead “all”. You believe some get saved, right. Even during the thousand years when Satan is released to go misleading the entire inhabited earth, we know he will not win everyone over.

            The “question” is of God’s sovereignty. This was what Satan and Eve by their actions and consideration asked, could God be wrong about something? They of course knew a question was possible because they knew that God does not know his beginning. So there is the possibility of an unknown. There are things that God does not know and things he cannot do. God cannot lie for example. We call this being God, but remember God is a descriptive title, Yahweh is a “being” with characteristics.
            I agree with you the “way” mankind has pursued within religion after the apostles died is the main reason for many wars and the dislike by general humanity. This also was expected by the apostles because of Satan and mankind gaining control of the general population of those left trying to follow Jesus’ revealed “way”.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Traveller now you are blogging and I understand what you are saying. Thanks, more can benefit now.

            • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

              Yes some will be saved. I believe however the scriptures are clear that satan misleads all, though he may not deceive all. With the prevalence of sin and the influence over thousands of years from evil that mankind as a whole in one way or another, however small is influenced. As for the thought that “God” does not know his begining, it seems then that he is in fact not “Almighty”. This is a concept I have never heard and am curious as to its origins. Are not all things possible with God? I should rather like to see a scriptural reference for this thought. If the creator was in fact created or simply came into being one day, big bang or whatever.. then who do we really seek to know and serve? If even he, knows not the answer, then it seems the reality we all know based on our understanding of scripture places us in the very same situation as all of mankind…. And apparently Yahweh as well… Uncertainty. Ignorance.. Mislead… I’ve a lack of words to even describe the idea.
              Lee

            • Anon CJ

              All means all. Not most of. The problem with JW theology is they have placed people that are not spirit begotten into the second death. Like Sodom. Everyone will be resurrected. 1 Cor 15:22. I doubt one all means all and the other all means “not all”. JWs have changed their bible from “All” to “all sorts of”. They have taken the ransom for all and turned it into “all that obey the watchtower.” Everyone will be reaurrected as per “1 Cor 15:22”. Jesus ransom guanatees a resurrection for all. Even Adam Those who obey now and are counted as more than overcomers will be of the 144,000. Those who are not following now will be brought back to life for 1,000 years to learn the truth. . Rutherford changed this into those who are wicked now won’t be resurrected. All means all. Which is why the JWs have changed it to “all sorts of”. Once a religion teaches that only their member will survive then that is a cult.

        • Anon CJ

          Incorrect on so many levels. You stated
          “Mankind is destroying the world along with their chances of survival. God will save the earth by removing those destroying it and with the purchased remnant of mankind, repopulate it . This remnant are those in the memorial tombs, those in God’s memory as his sons along with those “alive legally” at Armageddon.”

          Your belief reflects the belief of Christendom in that we have to be saved now. The Bible teaches me that ALL will come forth from the graves (1 Cor 15:22, John 5:22,23). Your error comes from the NWT which translate “grave” as “memorial tomb” and then inserts the belief that those in “God’s Memory” will be resurrected. The NWT has translated “Ransom for ALL “ into “all Sorts of” JWs deny the ransom for all and saying that if they don’t join an organization they will die in Armageddon and not be resurrected. Sorry. This is incorrect and is the teaching of a cult.

  • traveler

    Sorry folks, I believe what you are objecting to is the length of attention span. When it comes to the Bible it is an exercise that strengthens the mind’s ability to focus for longer periods involving deepening considerations. Peter seems to have no problem on this site nor does Jacqueline. This I believe is because they are viewed as authorities and are preaching to a congregation who is willing to follow. This is not necessarily bad. But if your goal is to find truth in the Bible, you may find your depth needs to be increased beyond the basic ideas that you’ve entertained. We’ve been writing for some time on a site exjwwitnesses.com where more in-depth considerations are the norm, and the habit of expressing on this level only seems to be our problem now that we are writing here.

    I believe you would not be more favorable to short answers on the scriptures once you realize that they also will show that what you believe, in most cases, won’t stand up to a logical consideration. We’re sure it will come as no surprise to you that when we approached the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they too had problems with our writings. They did, although, admit that what we had presented was true according to the Bible. However, they stated that it was too deep for the general congregation. Their opinion is that the average witness cannot handle a deeper understanding of the truth given the level they are at. These deeper considerations are reserved for the anointed. Brother Franz had a problem with the organization’s opinions on this subject also. The organization believes this is the main reason for the congregation’s need for “shepherding”. We pointed out that if you are shepherds, then why will you not take a stand for truth.

    (John 8:46, 47) . . .If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.”

    Before you get upset, there is a distinct difference between “followers” and “shepherds”.

    If this is the “Christian congregation” why would we need to go elsewhere with the truth.

    We will try to be short rather than brief in the future. Thank you for your patience and brotherly love.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveler so are you saying xjwwitnesses is where your website is and you want people to go over and post there. BTW I am not an authority figure. The order is Jehovah, Jesus, Bible there your have the authority figures. Concise and short.

    • Anon CJ

      As a teacher we learn to adapt do our students. If my students tell me I’m moving too fast then I need to slow down. Or if one says can you say that in fewer words I adjust. But by you’re response basically summed up “well the problem is not me it’s your attention span and that’s not a problem with me but with the Bible.” This is incorrect. The Bible says at

      Proverbs 17:27
      “A truly wise person uses few words…..”

      I believe some work on humility would be good for you. I used to be a JW and I had that same problem you do. I thought I was in the right when people didn’t listen that it was them not me. Now I see that it was me not them. Have a great day.

  • Anon CJ

    And by the way. You’re preaching to the choir about the name Jehovah. Then you also know that you cannot say “Jesus, Jeremiah, Joseph, Job, John., Jezebel, Jacob”. So be consistent when showing we cannot say YHWH ——-> JHVH.

  • traveler

    P.S. Just a short thought.

    (Matthew 5:15) . . .People light a lamp and set it, not under the measuring basket, but upon the lampstand, and it shines upon all those in the house. . .

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveler could you perhaps open a website, put your inf then post the link to your site. Then persons interested can dialogue back and forth.
      This way you are reaching your target market. Here no one is responding and you are just continuing to long post. I have to admit there might be valid points made but I have not read thru all the info only skim it. We will wait for your link. Thank you

    • Anon CJ

      There’s a difference between a light that people are drawn to you and a flashlight being shone in your face.

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        AnonCJ what I see is Traveler has a lot he feels has been revealed to him by God or the Holy Spirit. But this site bounces off the articles posted here.
        He (she) is creating a website but not in the right format. They need to break those post down to articles and focus so the audience can comment.
        Right now you say to yourself, am I expected to read all this? Each post is not about ONE thing but a lot of things in one post. Scriptures just quoted in mass without a stop and let us talk on this one thought.
        Traveler’s comments are articles and should have their own website because the ideas are different not necessarily wrong but different.
        If they leave the link to their site many will see it and go over.

        • TedR

          I agree. When a post is too long no one wants to read all of it. Traveler needs to keep his posts shorter and to the point. If he wants to write lengthy posts it needs to be in a blog or website.

  • traveler

    So what makes you believe what what you believe is truth? You seem unique in many of your views and do you think God has given this knowledge only to you? You’re overwhelming the page which pages of information. No a very good Witness are you? You shine light little at a time in the morning. Not flip a switch on.

    Hi Anon CJ,

    Looking at this site I assumed a great level of understanding of the information in the Bible, and expected that if we just laid it out in brief statements the contributors on the site would be able to follow the lines of reason easily, adding scriptures and conceptual realizations from their own studies. We see volumes laid out here on this site that we have been reading through. We assure you the answers we’ve offered have been brief. It cannot be just our truth if what we are saying is in the Bible, expressed in depth, which it is. You can prove this for yourself by following the “steps of reason”. This process is called being a “footstep follower”.

    As far as unique understandings, the understandings we’ve expressed are not our own, but can be found in the Bible for all to reason through with the help of God, just as we have. If you think we are in the time of the end as we believe those on this site do, you must be aware that if the “time had not been cut short no flesh could be saved”. In other words, no one could find God. This would obviously be because they would no longer believe in God or be able to understand the insights of the Bible. So the light grows brighter for the few that are on the path, but for those who speak the lie, God allows them to believe it, as it is said in the Bible. Through the insights shared through Jesus and understood using the “token” of holy spirit given each person in a relationship with God, we are able to learn beside our brothers, Jesus included, all being under Yahweh.

    For exsample an understanding that is not just “our understanding”,we posted a simple explanation of why it is not “reasonable” to go on using “Jehovah” to identify the God of truth. The reasoning is a matter of recorded history. So why people go on using Jehovah we could not tell you.

    Jehovah is not an English word, look it up. Jehovah is an English “representation” of a mispronunciation (by the Roman Catholic church) of a transliterated word from Hebrew to Latin, for the tetragrammaton. Yahweh is the transliterated word for the tetragrammaton into English, our English word. In this way the original known sounds for the name of the God of truth, are retained. The same sounds are kept in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English in this way, all pronounced Yahweh.

    Why don’t most people know this? Well, Satan is the “God of the air” and he has disgorged a flood of water to hide these things. We believe this is why we have the “information age” or misinformation age as we would call it.

    (Revelation 12:15-17) . . .And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. . .

    Just an idea of course. We are here to share. There is no way to know where those we are talking to are on the path. We may be putting it too simply for some, and too complex for others. We hope this helps you understand that we are here to learn those things that can be learned, doing this by examination and reflection on the Bible as a shared experience. The best way is to put ego aside and lay it out to be examined by our brothers and sisters. We can learn the truth with Yahweh’s help. Brother Russell held this as his main working guide, to get rid of old doctrine and hold onto that which makes “sense”, is “reasonable”. This would lead us forward to draw closer to Yahweh, learning side by side. “Side by side” is the way the original language puts it even when learning from Jesus. We hope this helps. Thank you for your reply.

    • Anon CJ

      Again you are overwhelming the site with extremely long responses. Just a witnessing tip you may not know.

      1. The Longer the response the less likely we are to read it. This is equalibaken to a person that won’t stop talking.

      If you’re trying to teach us something new Cazenovi it’s not going to work.

      • Cazenovi

        Hello Anon CJ, Its been a while since I’ve been on this site… I just stumbled upon this thread and saw my moniker name. I hope you don’t think “Traveler” is me.

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