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Anointed Talk

Welcome all Anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who would like to talk with you!

Anointed Talk is a place for the Anointed of Jehovah’s Witnesses to talk to each other and for others of us to get a chance to talk to you.  And why not?  We have been told that no one else is listening to you.  Is this true?   The The Watchtower, 5/15/00, p. 11 says, “anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand…”  (See complete quote below).  Yet to what avail is this special insight?  Does the Governing Body care what the Anointed have to say?  Do they ask for the opinion and spiritual insight of the anointed?  Sadly, we are getting reports from Anointed JWs, indicating they are being disrespected, ridiculed and made fun of.  They tell us that they are even being discouraged from partaking of the memorial.  Is it true that the elders and others just don’t believe that those who claim they are anointed really are?  That they do not respect insights of those claiming to be anointed?  Are the anointed who express a different point of view labeled an Apostate?  Is what we are hearing true?  Is this the norm or just unusual examples coming our way?

Why doesn’t the Governing Body consult the anointed?  Why aren’t they interested in their opinion?  Why is the Watchtower writing department adding more writers that are not anointed?  Are the Anointed a perceived threat to the power structure that must be diminished?  After all, shouldn’t JWs being looking to the anointed for spiritual guidance as opposed to Elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers?  Is the JW power structure trying to minimize and belittle their influence?  Is this really all just about power and who is in control?

We are not trying to incite the Anointed to rise up and rebel and fight the system.  The Lord’s anointed are a humble and meek people.  Yet we understand that if anyone expresses a difference of opinion, whether anointed or not, they are in danger of being labeled an apostate.   So, how then can the anointed be in any position to provide spiritual insights.  If it is only to tell everyone else to follow the organization, then couldn’t any JW member do that?  So then of what value are the anointed in the JW Organization?  It only seems to make sense that elders and leaders in the JW organization would desire, in humility, to look to the anointed for spiritual guidance.

What do you think?  What is really going on.  Let us know what you think.  This is a place to talk.  We want to hear from everyone, but especially from the anointed ones, whether presently JWs or whether you have been driven out of the organization.  Please enlighten us and tell us the truth of what is happening.  Here you can talk to each other and help each other out.

Full quote:  “Daniel 12:4 states: “As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Much of what Daniel wrote was made secret and sealed up to human understanding for centuries. But what about today?

6 In this time of the end, many faithful Christians have ‘roved about’ in the pages of God’s Word, the Bible. The result? With Jehovah’s blessing on their efforts, true knowledge has become abundant. For instance, anointed Witnesses of Jehovah have been blessed with insight, enabling them to understand that Jesus Christ became heavenly King in the year 1914. In keeping with the apostle’s words recorded at 2 Peter 1:19-21, such anointed ones and their loyal companions are ‘paying attention to the prophetic word’ and are absolutely certain that this is the time of the end.” – “The Watchtower, 5/15/00, p. 11.

688 comments to Anointed Talk

  • Naphtali

    Hello Friends,

    What a joy to be able to speak freely whether here or on other Christian forums. Christ never stopped his disciples (or his enemies for that matter) from speaking their minds or expressing their heart’s desires. So also we ourselves must not muzzle our brothers and sisters. We are not their masters. We are not their teachers. We are their brothers nothing more.

    Here we are 2000 years after Christ’s death with the Christian faith having gone through transformations and trials. The fruitage of many Christian church leaders has been the unjust killing of the innocent and the tragic stumbling of millions. Christian leaders have misrepresented Christ, blasphemed God, broken their vows, lied and most of all practiced what might be called the “gold standard” of Christian hypocrisy!

    As a member of the anointed worshipping among Jehovah’s Witnesses I know full well the problems that exist in my religion. Ironically, we have the same problems which existed in the first century Jewish religion. I could recount these problems but prefer to ask that you give some thought to this yourself. Take note of the practices of the Pharisees and Sadducees and you have a fair description of the Witness religion.

    We are a Pharisaical Judeo-Christian religion. We have our own “oral law” and expect our members to follow it. We live according to both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures sifting as we please and straining as we please. Essentially following Moses where it suits us and Christ where that suits us as well. We put brothers out of the “synagogue” who openly disagree with our teachings. Our “righteous works” are broadcast for all to see.
    We, in the opinion of our leadership, are the ONLY people of God and expect that God will save us because we are.

    Our leaders are Pharisees in shepherd’s clothing.

    I remain in my Pharisaical religion not because it is good or Christ-like but rather because within it are millions who worship my Father, the God of Abraham, but are torn and tossed about by the Pharisees among us.

    Therefore there is work to be done in my religion, good work. The work that Christ did; help the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, the hungry, the thirsty, the humble and the blind.

    Waiting for Christ on this “third day” since his death. Come Lord Jesus! Come!

    Jehovah’s blessing on all here.

    Naphtali (Rev. 7:6) . . .out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li twelve thousand; . . .)

    (Romans 11:3, 4) . . .“Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.” Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba′al.”

    • Naphtali

      My neighbor, my brother or sister, is the one sitting nearby me at the meeting. If I am to love a Samaritan so must I love my brother or sister in my congregation.

      Otherwise I am not a brother of Christ.

      Christ did not condemn the Samaritan woman’s religion. He just showed himself for who he was. That was enough.

      So too it is enough for us to tenderly care for our brothers and sisters in the JW congregations. It will be enough.

      Naphtali

      • Naphtali

        The anointed on One with Christ. The spirit of God does not exist divided.

        The anointed of God are not divided. They are one by God’s spirit. God’s spirit does not say one thing to one of Christ’s disciples and the opposite to another of Christ’s disciples.

        There is no 2/3 majority among Christ’s anointed. We are united in thought and action because we are led by God’s spirit.

        Naphtali

        • Just Stay Sweet and Good

          Naphtali……I agree, we are to love anyone who truly a footstep follower of our Lord and Savior. One thing Jesus was not timid about was in identifying sin. He did not mince words. A good tree produces good fruit, etc. Let your light shine. Do unto others and you would have done to you. Love looks for the interests of others when the wolves come. The good shepherd does not abandon the sheep. If you don’t speak out against evil your a party to it. Just connect the dots

  • john ship

    hi i have been l following on this webbsite after 50 years in jws and being told im not anointed so cannot patake of the emblems or have a personal relationship with jesus..i am becoming increasingly disapointed by some bible students on facbook etc constantly going on about how only the annointed are close to jesus and will go to be with him..ive know some wonderfull christians in my life from different churches and hate this self apointed segregation of christians..i now take communion at church of england and feel a closeness to jesus i never had brfore. i am begining to feel deptressed at this segregation..Raymond Franz spoke much about this in search for christian freedom.i also read john wesley there is no segregatiin of christian there either..the whole thing is now driving me away from the bible students..i an seeing just another version of jws GB talk..i firmly believe that all christians are saved and special. yet some still unsist that only 144000 are to be with jesus..

    • greg (Bible Student)

      Warm Greetings john ship.

      I’m very pleased to make your acquaintance.

      Thank you for commenting and for mustering up the courage to express yourself here so candidly. I’m guessing that what I am calling courage, you might call desperation and frustration. I know I’ve been there. Still live there, more so some days than others.

      Discouragement and criticism are never easy, never fun, and when other persons presume to know more about you than you do, it’s rather like bonus suffering.

      I try to draw comfort from recalling that on various occasions when Jesus most needed comfort and encouragement, he got bad advice, painful discouragement, false accusations, criticism, and abandonment. Jesus also said that when we try to follow him we could expect the same.

      1 Cor. 8:3 “But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.”

      I can appreciate that it might be extremely difficult to trust anyone after the kinds of experiences you’ve briefly mentioned, but if you’d care to share more of your experience with us, I’d be very willing to listen with all my heart and to continue to care.

      Compassionately and Consolingly,
      -greg

    • Richard.Tazzyman

      Hellow John,So good of you to contact us on this Site,I like you was A JW For over 40 years.Since finding the Bible Students In 2010,I have never Looked back.I now have a relantionship With Christ that I never had before.But my dear Brother it is not what we say/think that is Important,but Gods word.On this SUBJECT,our Lord & Master Said in Mathew 7:21″ Not everyone saying to me ,Lord,Lord,Will enter the kingdom of the heavens,but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.Many will say to me in that day:Lord,Lord,did we not prophesy in your name,& expel demons in your name,& perform many powerfull works in your NAME?And then I will declare to them:I never knew you!Get away from me,you workers of Lawlessness!Also in Rev 7:4,& 9,there is a difference between the 144,000 & the great crowd/mutitude(Still a heavenly Hope).We have to worship Jehovah in spirit & TRUTH.My Brother the bible Students have no Organization,no control over each other,No governing Body,But only INDEPENDANT congregations that are in unity with each other,held together by the Tie that binds”Christ”our Lord.Hope you visit our site again.Richard Tazzyman,Australia,Bible Student.

    • Jacqueline

      John hello, I just went way back to when we used to talk. Greg’s invitation is a good one. I will just read what you say. Please feel free to talk here if not we need to change the welcome page. http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/ “WELCOME TO THIS CITY OF REFUGE AND SANCTUARY FOR STUDIOUS AND INQUIRING MINDS.

      You are anonymous here. You can speak to other Jehovah’s Witnesses, former Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bible Students and other Christians. When posting your comments, you will be able to use a Pen Name. Your e-mail address and website info are completely optional. No one can identify you. No one can report you. You have a home and quiet place to pray and honestly investigate scriptures. It is not our purpose to indoctrinate you, but merely to provide you with resources for further study of Jehovah’s word. You are not alone. You have friends.”

      The important thing I hear from you is that you “feel a closeness to Jesus that you never had before.” How beautiful! Now we listen. jacqueline

      PS: Malcoln Little wrote you this once a long time ago: “If you kneel before God you can stand before any man!”
      Also I went to your facebook page and I really like it.

    • Ted R (Bible Student)

      Hi John
      I was a JW for nearly 50 years and know how you feel. The beauty of the Bible Students is that we are not an organized religion and there is room for disagreement. The Bible Students feel that there will be 144000 chosen by Jesus to be his Bride and have a special place in heaven. But unlike JW’s, who say that the Greek Scriptures is written solely for that class. Everyone else benefits by being associated with that class. I agree with you that that stand is not scriptural. Unlike the JW’s, the Bible Students believe that the Great Crowd is also in heaven. These are people that fully consecrate to do the will of our Lord and to follow in his footsteps. The Bride is chosen from among these. Christ said; “many are called, few are chosen.” In either case, when we consecrate to be a follower of Christ and have that desire to be with him in that heavenly Kingdom, then we should partake of the memorial. It is not up to us to decide who will be a part of the Bride and those of the Great Crowd. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for ALL! There are and have been many throughout the centuries that have developed a special relationship with Christ. The important thing to me is that truly desire to serve our Master to the best of our ability and let him know that we are in the race to be chosen for the grand privilege of being his Bride. If not then we can still have the wonderful privilege of serving in the heavenly courtyard. I know that some Bible Students feel that the heavenly calling is complete. I respectfully disagree. The heavenly calling is still open to those who truly want to be Christ’s followers. Only Jehovah can be the judge on this point. When we become too dogmatic in our opinions then we risk becoming like our wayward cousins, Never may that happen!
      Only Christ can judge who will be part of that heavenly reward. It is not determined as much by doctrine as by our true heart condition and love for Christ.

    • greg (Bible Student)

      john ship,

      I don’t know if you’ll see this reply, but I hope you will. Your expressions herein still haunt my mind all these days later. It seems to me that you and I and many others who also post and lurk on this website have in common many scars from all our deeply painful experiences.

      The words recorded at Luke 11:11-13 keep floating around in my head and heart:

      “And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a fish, and will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall the heavenly Father give a holy spirit to them that ask him?”

      Oh! how I long for the day when we will all learn how to give gifts that are actually good for the receiver. Until such time, I can but only try to give gifts I hope are good for the receiver–in this case you, john.

      How many times did I need a fish or an egg, and after daring to ask out of sheer desperation, get only copious amounts of pain instead? It leaves me very reluctant to ask anyone for any more gifts. I’d rather starve myself than have to deal with yet another scorpion sting in addition to my still-empty stomach.

      I do pray that God will give you a holy spirit which will help you to endure, and to overcome. I know that even when I try my best, the gifts I give are no where near as good as the gifts God can give.

      I do hope you get this message and that it takes even a little of the sting out of the scorpions. But if you find that it is painful to you in any way, I pray you would let me know so I can learn how to give better gifts to you and to others like us who have been hurt so deeply.

      Sincerely and affectionately,
      -greg

  • Ted R. (Bible Student)

    I found this interesting explanation on the website Beroean Pickets. This is put together by a former JW and is discussing the Memorial. It is amazing how closely it resembles Pastor Russells and Bible Student teaching. It makes me wonder if he is a BS.
    http://beroeans.net/2017/03/22/reflections-of-the-memorial-of-christs-death-part-2-who-is-worthy/
    Reflections on the Memorial of Christ’s Ransom Sacrifice, Part 2 — Who is Worthy?
    No measure of service activity or faithfulness to an organization makes a difference to our outcome. If we reject the kingdom covenant and membership in its spirit-anointed class—something never done before 1935—then we do not apply the value of the ransom sacrifice to ourselves.

    Partaking of the emblems is more than observing a command to “take and eat” or “take and drink.” It is a communion with the Lord, and Paul speaks of it being done on the Lord’s day, not the Passover.

    As a summary of reasons as to who is worthy to partake, we have considered the following points in Scripture:

    The “other sheep” of John 10:16 are Christian gentiles who joined with Christian Israelites to make up “one flock” under one shepherd by the ransom sacrifice and the pouring out of holy spirit (anointing) on the people of the nations. They are worthy as “one flock” to be in the new covenant and partake.
    The post-Armageddon “great crowd” of Rev 7:14 are declared righteous by accepting undeserved kindness or grace through their belief in the sin-atoning value of Christ’s blood and sacrificed body. They were found worthy to be declared righteous because in faith they followed the commands to “take eat” and “take drink.”
    The “great crowd” are placed in the center area of the temple, not in its courtyards. God spreads his tent out over them, and they dwell in his place of habitation. Thus under Kingdom Rulership they will act as administrators and princes, as the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to cover the extents of the earth.
    This group, which receives everlasting life, is worthy, not in their own right, but by their faith in the new covenant.
    By their partaking of the emblems, they confirm their communion with Jesus as brothers and as spirit-anointed “sons of God.”
    “To that very end we always pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling and with his power perform completely all the good that he pleases and every work of faith. 12 This is so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in union with him, according to the undeserved kindness of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:11, 12)

    • Chris J

      Good morning,
      No he is not a Bible Student. I’ve had him try to refute me one things. He also will bring up Russell from time to time and he will usuallys peak of him in a “failed prophesy” light.

      • Ted R. (Bible Student)

        The interesting thing is that he does provide a lot of information that goes along with the Bible Students and what our core beliefs are. I have found the sight very informative. Like anything else, you have to examine what he says and prove it for yourself.

        • Chris J

          Ted: That just shows that we aren’t totally unique in our beliefs and that they do align with the bible. One thing I find interesting is that there is a church here in town that their whole arroach to Bible study is type and antitype. I read their books and they believe they are running for the mark of the prize of the high calling. They believe Israel will be the chief nation in the millennium. Their types and antitypes match our view of types and they took me into three books on Ruth, Genesis and John and showed how they type the divine plan. Their beliefs match so many of ours yet they have no idea who Bible Students are.

          • Ted R. (Bible Student)

            It could be the Christadelphians. I know they believe much like we do.

            • Chris J

              Ted. Yes I like Christadelphianism. But they don’t believe that Satan is a being, that Jesus preexisted or that anyone goes to heaven.I like also the “Beyond Today” which is the Armstrong offshoot because they also believe in much of what we teach. But the church im refering to isn’t neither of them. I visit them every once in a blue moon.

              • Ted R. (Bible Student)

                I think its interesting that so many people independently come up with the same basic truths.

              • Ted R. (Bible Student)

                I did a little research on “Beyond Today” which is published by the United Church of God. While some of the beliefs agree with ours I noticed that they are as dogmatic as JW’s when it comes to disfellowshipping even for having a doctrinal difference of opinion. Differences of opinion are one thing but I get concerned when any religion practices that extreme of Church discipline.

                • Chris J

                  Yeah. I feel like most sects do. See we stay in the Bible Student’s because of our faith. Not due to threats from disfellowshipping.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Ted that is why I like that a Bible student is one that recognizes the Bible, Christ and supremely Jehovah as the authority. If you have a body whether a governing one (complete authority) or a small one that judges you on how you see scripture and what God has revealed to you, I can’t do that anymore. Fool me once. I do however listen to what others have gleaned from understanding I just can’t join anything. If you hold a card or I can’t decide if I can go say to an international convention without permission then no, I won’t submit.
                  I love what I have now. I am so much closer to God and now can accept Jesus. Healing didn’t take that long either with the help of the Bible student association of brothers. The bible might just be an eternal study. Its issues are timeless. Sarah and I have some of the same issues, what a book.
                  We have a convention in Chicago this weekend. It is listed under conventions on the calendar.

            • Nubby Tope

              Ted,

              Do Christadelphians believe only they will survive Armageddon? And do the Restored Church of God also?

              • Ted R. (Bible Student)

                As far as I can tell, and I may be wrong, they do not believe that way, although if you break away from their core beliefs the will disfellowship you, but it is not as extreme as the JW’s. I liken them as a cross between JW’s and the BS’s. They do have some very interesting and informative videos on you tube regarding prophecy. The Unified Church of God is a lot more extreme. They are closer to the JW’s. The only reason I brought them up was the fact that many of the beliefs are the same as ours. Interesting info but I would never join their religion.

                • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                  Simply reading the what we believe part of the site is enough. They are not an organization all. Unless its possible we are thinking of someone using a similar name….

                  • Ted R. (Bible Student)

                    I mentioned a couple, which one are you referring to? From what I have seen, Christedelphians seem to be an organization and so does the Unified Church of God which is an off shoot of Ted Armstrongs organization. The Boreans website is not an organization, it was put up by an ex JW elder who broke away when he realized the teachings were wrong. It is an excellent source to find information refuting JW doctrine but I don’t necessarily agree with some of his conclusions

                    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                      Oh yea I was talking about borean site. I like it was a big help to me when I 1st started “waking up”.

    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

      Hi,
      I have been on borean pickets site for quite a long time here and there. They are strictly by the book as it were. If the bible is not CLEAR on a matter they leave it open for further research and study. One thing I love about them is they see things as I do, if I cant find it in scripture by allowing scripture 2 explain scripture then I leave it alone and do not try and add to or take away from the word and interpret anything. Example time prophecies like 1914 or 1874 and so on.

  • Henry H.(bible student)

    Something has been on my mind regarding our salvation and who we need to get there. The JW’s say one can only gain salvation by being part o God’s organization when the Bible clearly states Jesus words at John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth,and the life;no one comes to the Father but through me.” The words organization or concept of an organization is never mentioned in the scriptures.The disciples were led by holy spirit. (John 14:26) Can we be men of courage and tell any man or men to stand aside and let the holy spirit guide me through Jesus to the heavenly father Jehovah?

    • Just Stay Sweet and Good

      Henry………I have come to the conclusion…(Niki said it) JUST DO IT…….Because in this day all are called to leadership. Just always do the right thing and set the example, in any conversation, in our lifestyle and just in the happy attitude we have when out doing our shopping. Always have tracts with you and pass them out with a big smile. Let the spirit flow. As Jesus said: “I must be about my fathers business” This is what leadership is all about. If we are going to be helping people have a close relationship with God,,,we are to be discipling them RIGHT NOW. Matt. 28:20 We can spend a whole year just teaching the “sermon on the mount” to anyone we meet RIGHT NOW. That will keep us real busy in itself. Your not a leader unless somebody follows. Pray for me, that I have the courage of my convictions.

    • traveler

      What It seems to me is being sought here is the connection of holy spirit to those who become “taught ones”. Holy spirit does different things or gives different gifts such as in the past gifts of healing, speaking in different tongues, and so on. These gifts ended. The spirit of understanding is the last gift, meant to remain forever. This gift is used to look into the deep things of God and by doing so comfort us by letting us understand what’s happening within and even outside of God’s will. While those just starting to learn need to be orally taught the basics, like any student it is expected that they will mature to take up the path on their own. God , Jesus, and the Bible make it quite clear that each person is held accountable, so each person must take a stand for truth and step by step within the framework of reason “walk” with God. Organization was mentioned in relation to the truth and its pursuit both in relation to Yahweh, Jesus and his followers. Only Yahweh is over all, but Jesus is head of the congregation and as such did appoint those “to shepherd” or guide young ones onto the path. Yes any organization on earth that claims to be the path will fail. So where is this organization of Jesus and its congregation.

      The truth will set you free. We believe that no one who has really covered distance in drawing closer to God has not seen the weakness in the “doctrine” men hold onto for personal power trying to lord it over you as the only “way” to salvation. Even though we come to see that this is wrong, and just an attempt to draw us away to form a division in the congregation, it does say “do not forsake the gathering together.” So when set free we are in the congregation of taught ones, Jesus’ congregation. Even though we are free, we should not forget it is our responsibility to help others to be gathered with us. Realizing this responsibility, we publish the “Good News” about the new administration and its congregation as Jesus also did. We have no denominations/divisions among us. This means that just as it is related in the Bible, we find our selves spending time working within man’s temporary attempts at organization to try and help the blind followers “wake up”. Also, as Jesus did when trying to work within man’s organization, the “nation of Israel”, we sometimes find ourselves being cast out, but not down.

      (Romans 14:1-4) . . .Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.

      (Galatians 6:6) . . .Moreover, let anyone who is being orally taught the word share in all good things with the one who gives such oral teaching. .

      (Luke 1:1-4) . . .Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message delivered these to us, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent The•oph′i•lus, 4 that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally. . .

      (Isaiah 50:4) . . .The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself has given me the tongue of the taught ones, that I may know how to answer the tired one with a word. He awakens morning by morning; he awakens my ear to hear like the taught ones. . .

  • traveler

    LANGUAGE

    Language has been used interchangeably with tongue or speech in recent history. If you look at the definitions today you soon realize that language is the conceptual information or picture within the mind, and the term tongue, or speech as we call it, is a verbal expression or indicator meant to relate the thought or direction of thought. It is popularly thought by Christians that the great variations of tongue came from the event at the tower of Babel, but when viewed in depth it is easily seen that it was the language that was confused not the tongues. In fact there already existed multiple tongues as brought out in Genesis 10: 31-32.

    (Genesis 10:31-32) 31 These were the sons of Shem according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, according to their nations. 32 These were the families of the sons of Noah according to their family descents, by their nations, and from these the nations were spread about in the earth after the deluge. .

    The organization has brought out that Abraham could converse with the different tribes around him because while they had different tongues, they had but one language, and this made translation easier than today with such varying language held by mankind.

    *** it-2 p. 201 Language ***
    Language, of course, is most intimately associated with the mind which employs the speech organs—throat, tongue, lips, and teeth—as its instruments.

    If you look at Genesis 11:1 in the light of the above statements you can see that mankind saw things the same way and this meant that each tribe had a word for tree, house, horse, and so on, even though the sound or tongue used might differ.

    (Genesis 11:1) . . .Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words. . .

    If you consider the statement at Genesis 11:5-9, we can see that multiple tongues already existed. The scripture is expressing that the conceptual framework that lay behind the words or tongues that had been the same up to this time, i.e., they had the same thing in mind, or framework of mind, the same basic concept of reality, and it was this image that was confused, so that they gradually stopped seeing eye to eye. They gradually stopped reasoning fundamentally in the same way. That is why it says they “gradually left off the building.” God confused their language.

    (Genesis 11:5-9) . . .And Jehovah proceeded to go down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built. 6 After that Jehovah said: “Look! They are one people and there is one language for them all, and this is what they start to do. Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them. 7 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another’s language.” 8 Accordingly Jehovah scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city. 9 That is why its name was called Ba′bel, because there Jehovah had confused the language of all the earth, and Jehovah had scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth. . .

    *** it-2 p. 201 Language ***
    Encyclopaedia Britannica (1959 edition) states: “Thinking and words go together. For thinking, to be clear, has to rely upon names [or nouns] and their various associations with one another. . . . While some minor reservations are justifiable there is an overwhelming mass of evidence . . . that fortifies the contention stated above—no words, no thinking.” (Vol. 5, p. 740) Words are man’s principal means of receiving, storing, manipulating, and transmitting information.

    It is important to note that more than one concept is being discussed in the above statements.

    CONCEPT 1: Language is a conceptual image or picture in your mind.

    CONCEPT 2: Tongue is a way of sounding or vocally expressing that language with your tongue, i.e., French, English.

    CONCEPT 3: Words are references to blocks of conceptual information or language, expressed in a grouping of sounds, called words or phrases in the English tongue.

    We can look at the statement in the Encyclopedia: “no words, no thinking”. You might immediately think of the young child who has not yet formed words or come to understand them, or that Yahweh’s mind does not need words to think or express himself as seen in self evident truth expressed in the creation of our reality. He obviously has thought of, and wills things not able to be covered by words. The frame of mind that we are trying to acquire is that of Yahweh’s, and sometimes it is acquired by revelation which is conceptual information realized as a complete understanding, at times over a wide range of topics. This can be seen in the Bible in the building of the temple in Jerusalem where men gained the realization of the expression necessary to use their skills, as a complete piece of an overall plan. The point here is that God does not need to think in words, or express his thoughts in words, or use a tongue to relate them to us.

    This touches on another idea put forward that the perfect language would be some form of Hebrew. When you remember that Yahweh hears your prayers before you speak, it becomes clear that he at least hears the thoughts you are having, your language or conceptual images, by what we call telepathy. This may actually have to do with an energy resident in some of us now, as holy spirit. Also, Jesus stated that he prayed aloud only so that the people nearby would know that Yahweh was listening to him. This all shows that in general it is not necessary to make sounds to communicate with God, and suggests that originally we would have solved all problems of communication this way, or really the problems would not have existed in the first place.

    The vehicle for communication that we evidently used deliberately was holy spirit, whereas now we have only a token of it and so it works more as a filter. Since the holy spirit gives us, among other things self control and increased intellectual capacity, it follows logically that the more spirit the clearer you could communicate.

    (Romans 8:26-27) 26 In like manner the spiritual so joins in with help for our weakness; for the [problem of] what we should pray for as we need to we do not know, but the spirit itself pleads for us with groanings unuttered. 27 Yet he who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in accord with God for holy ones.

    (John 11:41-42) . . .Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth.”

    (Matthew 6:7-8) . . .But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.

    You might wonder, “How about the angels who at times are away from the general area of God and each other?” If we carry the train of thought a little further it might occur to you that Adam was not supposed to cultivate the garden by the sweat of his brow until he was thrown out of it, although he was to dominate over it and the other creatures of the earth. Even our scientists have found that every plant has the potential for movement over a distance. Thus when we read the statement at Luke 17:5-6 about asking the tree to move, it does not take much imagination to see that Adam simply would have related the information that was within Yahweh’s will to the tree, and it would have obeyed the request to move to the necessary new location. Attention should also be drawn to the words “it would obey you”, implying that it was the act of the tree, not of an outside force. Just how the tree stores information and how our minds could change that, is probably a topic for a later discussion. This form of expression through what could be called perfect language would explain the moving of mountains, the communication with the creatures of land and sea, control of the atmosphere, staying in touch with one another and many other abilities. We use the term perfect language because only through this avenue or ability could there be no misunderstanding between Yahweh and ourselves, or for that matter between one man and another, of our kind and of other kinds.

    (Luke 17:5-6) 5 Now the apostles said to the Lord: “Give us more faith.” 6 Then the Lord said: “If YOU had faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU would say to this black mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea!’ and it would obey YOU.

    *** it-2 p. 201 Language ***
    On the origin of language, the well-known lexicographer Ludwig Koehler wrote: “There has been, especially in former times, much speculation as to how human speech ‘came into being’. Writers strove to explore ‘animal language’. For animals also are able to express audibly by sounds and groups of sounds their feelings and sensations, such as contentment, fear, emotion, threat, anger, sexual desire and satisfaction in its fulfillment, and perhaps many other things. However manifold these [animal] expressions may be, . . . they lack concept and thought, the essential domain of human language.” After showing how men can explore the physiological aspect of human speech, he adds: “But what actually happens in speech, how the spark of perception kindles the spirit of the child, or of mankind generally, to become the spoken word, eludes our grasp. Human speech is a secret; it is a divine gift, a miracle.”—Journal of Semitic Studies, Manchester, 1956, p. 11.

    Looking at the thought of Ludwig Koehler expressed above, we might draw the conclusion as he evidently has that speech is a gift from God. But we might also form the opinion that in fact, we now use the tongue to communicate because for the most part, we have returned to a state like the beasts of the field, having lost the awareness and holy spirit of Yahweh that Adam had and as such can communicate no other way than with unthinking expression after the fashion of the beasts. Truly what do we have to say to Yahweh that could be said in words of fit meaning?

    It is ironic that we think we are so aware here in the information age, and yet our appearance and sounds are much like the beast to those who can see and hear, those with even our limited grasp of Yahweh’s awareness. Man’s concept of reality where he holds himself above the beasts because he has the ability to reflect is obviously distorted at its root to the extent that mankind calls his expressions of this ability philosophy, or considerations based on “what if”. We know that it is only through the expressed awareness of God that we can truly come to see ourselves or become self aware. Man’s supposed path to awareness actually leads to a dulling of the senses and a loss of the original ability to communicate with any fit expression, meaning that like the beasts he can only express base sounds, and every path that he deems right lead to death. Mankind states that he is above the animals because he is self aware. Yet if one knows the truth of our reality, it is clear that if you have not grasped the nature of your obligation in a relationship to Yahweh and have not come to know him, you are not self aware. You can do only as the animal does, what is in your nature, and then die. The possible range and outcome of expression for mankind’s presence in reality is so certain that he is described quite objectively as dead though having existence on earth.

    (Ecclesiastes 3:18) . . .I, even I, have said in my heart with regard to the sons of mankind that the [true] God is going to select them, that they may see that they themselves are beasts.

    When Yahweh selected a people for special possession he made possible the ability for them to realize the true nature of their existence, they were dead, and the hope to reach reconciliation with him was the only way to cross over from death to life. They were then able to understand that the beast cannot see, or “find himself” and become self aware. The longer we consider this direction of thought, the more clear it becomes that mankind exists now as beasts of the field.

    If we go back to our realization of the basic nature of “WHAT IS”, we see that language must be frame of mind, or the conceptual framework of reality as it is expressed in and by Yahweh’s will. In other words, it is an intellectual limitation of his energy that forms all self evident truth, expressed and realized truth.

    Yahweh reads our minds and our hearts. As the organization and the scriptures point out, he knows your thoughts. In Jesus’ case the spirit is sited as the energy that carries the information of language or request to the mind of God. The connection between mind, thought and language can be seen even more clearly after considering the definitions of concept, conceptual and idea; we suggest you do that.

    One of the experiences we have had in our pursuit of the “nature of what is” or in other words the one lasting reality is that words coined when mankind’s realization of our relationship with Yahweh was clear have continued to be used long after mankind began to go to sleep mentally. In time this resulted in the loss of the realization of the true meaning of the words. Conceptual information may come in great big grand realizations (revelation), or just a small aha.

    The regaining of an understanding of the nature of what is, is dependant upon Yahweh’s awareness. As you regain lost realization about the nature of what is, you begin to see that the real meaning behind the word or the language behind the word is often not the appropriate meaning that is used in the modern definition of the word today.

    When we look behind the words at the language, we see that some of the words were given their meaning by persons who probably did not know the truth, or wrote the common meaning, the one that was used, long after the true meaning was forgotten. For example, today we say understand, without the least thought of its probable origin and intended meaning. We suggest its meaning to be clearly the following:

    understand: to take a stand based on the frame of mind held by God, one that is thus a higher stand, to under-stand God and the stand he himself has taken.

    This and other conceptual images have been misrepresented because of this process of the dulling of our senses from Adam’s fall onward.

    In the preface of his Bible, Webster wrote;

    “Whenever words are understood in a sense different from that which they had when introduced, and different from that of the original languages, they do not present to the reader the Word of God.”

    (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21) 18 I, even I, have said in my heart with regard to the sons of mankind that the [true] God is going to select them, that they may see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. 21 Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?

    We might note that the statement above is true only until we believe in Christ and exercise that belief. We must have faith in the things heard from the word of God delivered through Jesus and accurately understood by the use of Yahweh’s holy spirit.

    Words are a window into language or a window into the conceptual reality/frame of mind that the being wishes to express, but you will quickly see that many statements suggesting what is behind words are made because man has lost, or never had a realization of the “Nature of What Is”. This makes it a necessity to peer into the conceptual information behind a word or expression. It is important then to not just hear what others say they saw, having accepted it at face value, or hear them saying that they have already peered into it. We might think about the term hearsay, “let those in the congregation that have ears hear”. Understanding is achieved only if Yahweh’s knowledge is accurately understood when given to us and relayed in language accurately using words with the right definition as Webster pointed out.

    The Bible tells us not to argue over words because the language behind the words used is inspired, and as such will always be understood using the holy spirit even though the writers often did not understand the information at the time. If they had understood, they too might have used different words. This does not remove the need to use a more accurate word when new understandings allow for this. In this pursuit, each piece we come to know through Yahweh’s language is connected to every other piece. That is why it “adds up” as we say, even if the word used is not quite right or not quite understood at the time the reader reads and translates it. By seeing the language behind the words and by keeping track of the general train of thought behind them we need not worry about a poorly chosen word by someone who did not understand, because the inspired conceptual information still comes through clearly. Again on the other hand, we should not dismiss the accurate use of words just because less accurate ones have traditionally been used.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveler 4 points. I want to say I left the witness religion for reasons other than theology or doctrine.
      2. When your comment does not show immediately the program is throwing it into moderation for us to look at it first, if it is very lengthy, have a word in it that was flagged or a lot of links with maybe one questionable,etc. Just wanted to let you know it isn’t us doing that. We go thru it and approve as soon as we realize it is in moderation
      3. I see tongue and the confusion of the languages as the same because that was just an overall summary. The confusion at Babel took place then the summary of the migration “with their tongues”. This is how we got different distinct “races” ie Negroid, Caucasian, Yellow and Red so it was alphabet that changed as I see the Bible saying. Only when you began to dream and think in a language is when you master it. The sounds you make will then be distinct like those in your community. (Tongue sounds) They didn’t migrate until after Babel.
      A summary list of Nations: Genesis 10 traces first the descendants of Japheth (Gen. 10:2-5), then the descendants of Ham (Gen. 10:6-20), and finally the descendants of Shem (Gen. 10:21-31). Among them, Ham’s grandson Nimrod stands out. Nimrod founds an empire of aggression based in Babylon. He is a tyrant, a mighty hunter to be feared, and most significantly a builder of cities (Gen. 10:8-12). Building cities are okay as Jerusalem but asking for a concentration of power with a King for instance with the same language can be deadly. The power to procreate is for humans to scatter, fill and enjoy the many wonders of the earth. Not clump together and rule over the lowest ones,by one person. so he scattered them.
      4. (Off Topic) Concentrating power is against Jehovah’s plan and having concentrated power with a Central Governing Body among the witnesses reminds me of Nimrod.1Sam.8:10-18

      • traveler

        I see tongue and the confusion of the languages as the same because that was just an overall summary.

        Thanks for the answer Jacqueline. Tongue and Language and the use of them are just accepted definitions, not ours. A lot of the time it comes down to how they are commonly used today. The use of the word “amazing” is an example. The root definition of amazing is to confuse with inaccurate information, i.e. the use of a maze. This use is not what people usually want to say when they use this word. We just went through the steps as they occurred at Babel. The Race thing we have really never considered. Frame of mind has none, and Salvation considers none. While of historic significance, like we’ve said before we are not particularly interested unless it directly points to becoming or not becoming of one mind with God. We appreciate this site putting up with our style of response so we’ll give you a break. I have Jury duty all through May and plan on spending a lot of time reading the Bible.

        I want to say I left the witness religion for reasons other than theology or doctrine.

        Yes you surprised us on this one. We are always surprised when we have found that brothers and sisters spent years within the organization and still never knew what the present truth of the organization was (a good reason to leave). We have run into only two elders, one anointed, (speaking of a title here not a fact) and one not anointed, who knew what the organization really held as their present truth. We can’t count Franz and his writing team because although they knew, we’ve never met them.

        We are sorry if you were not set free by finding the truth. We’re happy you are still pursuing.

        one final thing we can no longer be reached at traveler144000@gmail.com, it seems Google does not like anonymous email. We will soon move but in the mean time the address we’ve given will get to us if there is need.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          I understand the theology of the witnesses better than perhaps the best. So do probably all of the people that you encounter that say they left for other reasons. They, like me knew probably before you of their doctrine. I can always believe what I want and let them believe what they want. I don’t try and change people belief just mine.But the sexual perversion and worship of this wicked Body of men got us first. You probably grew up under a governing body. I didn’t, it developed and we were already able to think for ourselves you had to learn. Everybody don’t have to be the same. This is Jehovah witness mentality.
          I don’t argue over words that is too heady for me. I prefer heart and holy spirit help. Isn’t it amazing the people that understand the Bible without and before all the books. It is great to be able to get all this confirmation but I guarantee help from the Helper, the Holy spirit will help us understand the SIMPLE truth about God’s plan. I will just moderate for now as I am just not into this approach. Many are and i mean no disrespect just been there done that and I understand without taking so much of my time to do the extensive research. I don’t have a problem with our friends doing it and I can learn a thing or two. We appreciate you engaging and others are learning a different style.
          I work with a group call Martyls for Christ, and all we do is put plain old Bible in the hands of the people in countries that the Bible is banned in. We even write scripture on balloons etc. These people can converse with you in a mighty understanding of the Bible and they can go deep. Yet they don’t have a computer or any of the other methods of research. Now where and how are they able to understand without all the help? I say Jesus Christ’s promised Helper from the father. They amaze me.
          Also, this site is moderated by Br. Peter, Br. Kris also and Zionsherald. So we are a team. They may moderate differently for different reasons so just a sidebar. Take Care and continue.

          PS. I just finished reading your response. I was in the same Circuit with Raymond and my relative sat on his appeal committee. No, I am not searching. I know more about the teachings and the organization structure than you will ever guess. We older ones actually saw it develop and our IQ”s are up there along with help from our friend, the Helper. So please don’t assume we didn’t know it is just 20-40 years behind us and we are on a different page. We just don’t talk about it anymore I am not anointed either in the JW sense or any. I just love Jesus and appreciate what he did and God’s divine plan.
          Also I did notice the email difference. Glad you told me because I don’t want someone to pretend to be you, now I know this is you.Thanks.

          • traveler

            Dear Jacqueline, we have no problem with you and your approach, it is the approach that the majority use. While we are perhaps a bit behind you in years, the Bible says we learn beside each other, Jesus included, our Father being higher than all in his thoughts . Yahweh certainly never set a minimum or maximum for the knowledge required to become a member of his family. For our part we never entered or joined the organization, We never had the ruling body as our leaders, or Russell, or any other man or woman. I’m sure you are very intelligent, we’re sorry if it came across differently. As you’ve pointed out we like to go into far more detail establishing that a trail of thought is going up the path when looking at the Bible. The Bible presents a path intentionally meant to be a life time of on going learning/progress in making your mind over. We believe this presents a must for progress among those wanting to acquire this learning. If accurate knowledge acquired is drawing closer to God this seems to make sense to us. Before you get upset, yes it could all be in the wrong direction or presented in the wrong format, but we do not believe so. So this is why we make no judgment as to the validity of your format. Like it says though, “there should be few teachers among you”. Teachers at every level are needed and Paul pointed out that whatever the reason, he was glad to see Jesus proclaimed as Christ. So too we are glad you are willing to put the time in to teach.

            In using our approach from the start in our relationship with the organization we were more aware of its stands than the majority of those we have met when talking of the organization’s “present truth” . We read early on the writing of Russell so as far as what you know or what we know, it’s not that important. If indeed you let the actions of men, abusers or women cause you to leave off a connection that allowed you to form a relationship with God and his son to the extent that you have received the last gift, the “spirit of understanding” the “helper”, we are sorry. It is simply fact that the abuse goes on in any and all religions and the world in general. Knowing more or less than others does not suppose that we were stronger in our belief in God than our brothers and sisters. But the statement, “the truth will set you free”, is seldom experienced because “few” find it. Franz found it, that’s why he could find no denomination fit to join and remained no part of the world. The Bible says plainly that the truth is hidden from the intellectuals. We do not claim or aspire to be intellectuals. We just want to know as much accurate knowledge that has the ability to make our minds over, and in doing so draw closer to God at our own pace. We apologize if we’ve made work for you in trying to respond. For our part it was simply a cut and paste effort for the most part, having written what we’ve posted in large part in years past. Since we have used this material many times we know pretty much what the general response is going to cover. We would like to remind you that the Nation of Israel had a long history and the artifacts that proved they had been God’s people. This proof, however good and secure it made them feel, was not enough to win God’s approval. Jesus pointed out that you must “peer” into the deep things of God to survive. The “nation of Israel” had and continues to have lost the “path” to do this. Again we mention the “true Jews” have not. We have taken the time to read at least some of the many thousands of hours you have put into writing on this site and hope the problem is that we just don’t get it because of the manner in which you chose to express it. It is clear you are sincere. I think for my part that effort spent in the theory of the trinity is a waste of time, and constitutes the blind following the blind. I can say that my wife feels the same. We certainly appreciate you patience Jacqueline and will not leave long posts in the future, any wanting a deeper consideration of any statements we might make can email us and we’ll gladly respond.

            Sincerely, the travelers

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Traveler now I see your point. I am not the writer of the articles on this site, perhaps this is meant for Br. Peterand the other admin. I do write the articles under my name.
              May I ask you a question please? And I ask it because of this statement.

              “If indeed you let the actions of men, abusers or women cause you to leave off a connection that allowed you to form a relationship with God and his son to the extent that you have received the last gift, the “spirit of understanding” the “helper”, we are sorry. It is simply fact that the abuse goes on in any and all religions and the world in general. Knowing more or less than others does not suppose that we were stronger in our belief in God than our brothers and sisters.”

              How do you draw this conclusion that I have left off a connection that has allowed me to form a relationship with God? What is this connection I have left off? Why do you conclude I don’t have a relationship with God? why does it matter to you on a website that is about subjects on the bible not the individuals personal relationship with their father?
              BTW: I am not angry, just waiting for you to come to some conclusions instead of copying and paste huge amounts of material at once. Can’t you link out to the place where you have your material stored? We do it all the time. It will allow you to present a point or two here then link out to a longer more comprehensive explanation. Then let them read it. Come back discuss with others. I mostly moderate but comment when it just sits.

              • traveler

                Hi Jacqueline, we realize you don’t write the articles. The Internet is a new and challenging format of communication. In general knowing about life changing events in a person’s life helps to come to an understanding of what that person is trying to get across. We evidently guessed wrongly that you had progressed up the path that Russell set out on and that it took you away from the witness organization. This would mean we covered similar ground. On finding some truth within the organization we of course wanted to know how they got started in this direction, so we studied what Russell and other writers had found. I am always somewhat blown away that so many people who say they are pursuing truth have little or none of what they should have found, written down. Just knowing and quoting scriptures connected by words or even subject matter expresses little in the way of “in-sight”. Yes we have the Bible and it is good to be able to quote scriptures when used to reveal ground covered. But the truth is hidden within the conceptual images of the Bible, the language. As in all Bible studies you must keep track of these connections over time because the Bible doesn’t reveal all it’s insights at once, even using the method, “way” of reason Jesus showed us to move up the path. So yes our past writing was cut and pasted but it represents who we are and how we think, not how the people or organizations we quote think. It is useful when trying to cover a lot of ground quickly to post theses past considerations so that anyone trying to figure out what we are talking about has the advantage of seeing clearly how we arrived at the “stand”, our view point.

                I can see where a discussion of peers that are fully informed of each other’s position might be able to carry on a discussion in real time with short thoughts based on common understanding. This site we assume is made up of people on many varying levels of understanding related to the Bible. Some have reached the level where they are willing to go back and “teach” others by expressing in simple one line or one thought steps. Teaching is a calling and art, in our opinion and not one we have developed either the skill for or the desire to acquire. This is a supposed shortcoming that has been pointed out time and time again relating to us.Remember the Bible says clearly “there should be few teachers among you.” We have to give some credit here to Anon. He read what we had to say, stated that it made no sense to him and moved on, an impasse is OK. What we say is what we think and our posts are how we arrived at it. This approach to replying seems to be presented as the wrong format for your group. It seems to us that those who wish to read in our format are ruled out by those who wish it to all be simpler. We assure you, taken one step at a time within the reading of what we’ve posted, it is simple, but the truth on the “path” up is deep. With growing maturity comes growing depth. You and ourselves are still working on the “Book” it took to try and get this information across to us. It stands to reason that if we’ve made progress we have something to say and it also stands to reason it isn’t going to be a short explanation. So are we trying to help, yes. Are there a lot of questions posted we wish to start at the beginning in discussing, no. As we’ve said we respect you have the patience and skill to teach. We of course would like to run into someone who is in the frame of mind to teach at say a college level, or even more fun graduate school, a PHD level. Yes truth is hidden from the intellectuals, so what might be considered college level or PHD level in the world obviously is ruled out as a possibility by the Bible. This makes it pointless to attend those institutions making these levels of claim to insight related to the Bible. So running into depth of mind that has covered ground up the path is what we have been about in posting, while trying to embrace the request of this site through you to keep it simple. We are sorry we are doing so poorly in fulfilling your expectations and understand your desire to not be interrupted in your teaching effort. Please recall your request for our continued response. If we can comment in the future in a paragraph or less we will, but outside of that you have our word we’ll refrain.

                As to why it matters what relationship you have had or left in the past, remaining connected to a denomination for sixty years or more suggests that you believed in that organization as a provision from God to shepherd you. It also might be presumed that it was a strong relationship based on a maturing insight into the Bible. To leave based on the physical acts of someone within that organization, as you stated, then to discuss subject matter in another format that should have long ago been resolved in your mind, suggests you gave up pursuit based on an exceptionally strong foundation acquired over those many years. Your action is not what we would expect from someone with only a physical reason to leave a very long standing relationship. Yes we’ve already said the depth we found within the organization was seriously lacking, but maybe you didn’t believe any of the information you were taught by them and just didn’t see anywhere else to go. That would have been depth and endurance indeed. So you see why we would be interested in who you are and where you are at. You must admit you are not just another person responding on this site but carry a great deal more weight when you respond. Having said that, again we will try not to bug you.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Traveler thank you for your response. Perhaps there are others that wish to respond. In fact, Just stay sweet and Brandon did actually respond to you. If you need to speak to someone please leave your info on the contact form. Only administrators will see it, and we can go from there. Take Care and thank you.

                • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                  Hello,
                  I am interested in hearing different points of view on certain things myself. I did not discover what I would consider foundational truth’s through the organization or through C.T Russel but through scripture study and interaction with other followers of Christ. I do have a question for you though, and forgive me if you have shared the answer before, but In what sense are you traveler’s? R.V. lifestyle perhaps? Or is this more spiritual in nature?

    • traveler

      Well I got a one day reprieve from jury duty so I thought since it seems we are giving a hard time to some on this site and don’t wish to do so, we’d try to make amends. Here’s a young undeveloped trail of thought you might find fun.

      Garden of Eden, who were we?

      Our thoughts: Science has proven that given an abundance of food and no stress our species, Mankind, will get larger over time. Not Fat, but larger. If we search the Bible we see that when angels took on perfect bodies to breed with our best women the resulting progeny where considered “giants”. Now, we know that we controlled all plants and animals or dominated over them mentally. Not by the sweat of our brow as the Bible puts it. A good example of this is where we’re told in the Bible if you ask the black mulberry tree to uproot itself and be transferred or transplanted to the middle of the sea,( here’s the important bit) “it” will obey you. Now you add to all of this the main results of extreme stress, hair loss, you can see where this is going. Remember that holy spirit, of which we only have a token now, gives increased intellectual capacity and we will have a complete complement before entering the garden again. So a very large human capable of telepathy, covered in well kept, ordered hair, Sounds like “sasquatch” is not that new an idea. Some studies also have shown a correlation between the amount of hair on the body and the intelligence level. The more hair, the higher the intelligence. I can’t think of a better form to roam our home the earth in. Also not only will we not be nakedly in the wrong frame of mind, but we won’t, as they say, be a naked ape either. Also remember no cutting the trees down, no need to build a home, no digging the dead up (oil) to spread disease, no ruining the earth period. So what do you think ladies and gents?

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        (I looked for your reply to Brandon’s in pending but not there.)

        Traveler, you are our friend. Everybody is trying to guess who or rather what your angle is. We have been burned before so it is natural to be cautious on the internet. Most wanting help to come out of the organization would have talked to admin by now, even met some of the brothers by visiting a convention or for coffee. But it seems you are out already. We are serious in helping persons in turmoil, but are not wanting to give up on God and hold on to some things they know are true.
        I just handed the wheel over the person traveling with me.So I couldn’t read too much today with 14 hr travel. So keep commenting, we aren’t blocking you. In fact you have a large audience. You don’t bother me BTW. I have reasons for caution.
        How is your wife doing? Hope she is okay.
        PS: I saw the documentary on us being bigger it made sense of some of the skeletons found etc. I watch and listen to a lot of voices now and am learning from others thoughts.you tube is great.

        • traveler

          Safe travel Jacqueline. My wife had the type of aneurysm that has nothing to do with age. It bleeds on the outside of the brain and so she is expected to recover 100%. It has been an intensely interesting process watching her mind reorganize itself. As the blood washes away and the irritation it causes ceases its irritation, that part of the brain starts to fire again. At a little over three months the symptoms left are so refined that it’s hard to tell if it’s a symptom at all. She’s gone back to work and drives. We spent 17 days in ICU where they wake you every hour 24/7 during which time she sometimes didn’t know her name or where she was at. I was allowed to stay for the entire three months sleeping in a chair. The reason I mention this is that it stopped her from going into shock as her trust of me never waivered and so she was never overly distressed which as we know in life threatening events can do extreme damage on its on. I recommend anyone who has a loved one in this situation do the same.I should add though that after three days with no sleep, the maximum was four hours a night for me so be careful if you are the support person to take good care you eat well so that you do not lose your health. This I’m told is a common result. But as I said, being able as I was to watch as she reevaluated her life, her partner, and her beliefs (knowing my wife’s mind intimately) was an incredible experience. You could at times see even the shape of her eyes change with some realizations as sense of herself arrived. So life threatening for her, worst fear ever for me, but strangely enriching at times. As to what we are up to, I think we managed to state that in a “short” (I know, “hah, hah”) answer today related to comments about organization.

          • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

            We are going on the Wed. Study in a few minutes. Wish you could dial in. I am just so happy for the wonderful outcome for your dear wife. She was blessed for all good gifts are from God. Gotta run.

  • traveler

    Hi Jacqueline, On our part the post was basically directed toward you. We never expected the large majority to read the considerations. We appreciate what’s been said in the past about teaching. We look at what we’ve shared as being our conceptual reality shared with your mind for consideration. We, you and my wife and myself, already have a deep sense of reality in common in that we believe you did not spend all your years with the organization without considering the Bible deeply. This means we’ve covered common ground in our search.

    You being where you are now on this site is proof that you must have seen that while the pursuit of truth was put forward as the identifying trait of the organization in all its publications, the reality within the organization looked quite different, on your becoming spiritually mature . What we don’t know is if while you looked into the truth that the organization holds, as all Christian organizations do, you realized that this organization held significantly unique understandings of the truth revealed by Jesus. Now the problem, you must have also realized next, if you did, is that while the organization holds significantly unique pieces, it does not know the path to put them all together. Because of this they have no working framework to order accurate information into connective reality, generating sense. Back to the teaching thing. I for myself respect your ability to “blog”. For my part I mean to learn connected truth and then move on. I would like to learn how to teach at any level, it is a real art form. I see teaching as simply expressing truth in order, to whatever depth you have, then waiting to hear from anyone who has covered distance to arrive with their insights. This expression of love, their insights, would of course be to help me cover more distance than I had alone. In turn, the mind arriving would realize within the frame of mind we were found to have expressed the same intent. All this to share based on our common pursuit, carried on by a family of members. Those we now see that weigh in common on the same scale. You are right, one liners are my weakness if you hold a certain position or perspective. This tradition we are using for sharing truth was used as the practice of expression exercised by the Jews. A man would stand up in the synagogue (Jesus also) and take UP if he could the expression of truth, takeing it to the next level of depth. In this traditional interaction the group would come to know his mind and it’s depth of connection to God along with the distance covered.
    It seems this practice was eventually corrupted into a practice to rank or class individuals. I see people need to cover distance in steps, but the Bible demonstrates that this must be done by each individual at a pace of his or her choosing. I do not expect people in general to follow the entire expression we post, but if they hear one point out of it we are glad. If they go further and hear two points even better. If, on the other hand, a complete knowledge of Biblical historic fact is the goal one can go on learning and learning but never come to any logical connections, except at the simplest and lowest land marks on the path. There is a “path” and the only “way” to cover distance on that path is what Jesus revealed. So has the person covered distance and thus depth, or just learned facts thinking that salvation lies in knowing lots of facts. On the other hand they may have figured out that the picking up and putting on the incorruptible apparel is to learn and put in order truth so as not to be found naked when examined by God. Under-stand, make your mind up, hold your head up, footstep follower, steps of reason, stand erect as you see your deliverance draw near, all of these point to “frame of mind” and what we’ve posted is our simple attempt to relate that we are footstep followers, by plainly showing that we have taken the steps as our own truth and to draw out other brothers and sisters of common pursuit. We need what you have seen if you’ve seen further in the same direction.

    Out of respect for the need you embrace, I put forward the fact that Jehovah is not an English word. Jehovah is a “representation” (sounds like) of a mispronunciation of a transliterated word, used and originating in the Roman Catholic church in Germany, eventually spreading world wide within that denomination. JhVh Latin has an English Y sound that corresponds to the J in Latin and a W sound corresponding to the V in Latin. The English speaking followers in the German Catholic church mistakenly started using English sounds for the Latin letters. This is a simple, provable historic fact. Yet using a mistake for the name of your “God of truth” doesn’t seem to bother the majority. The English word for the “God of truth” is Yahweh. The Latin is Yahweh. The Greek is Yahweh. The Hebrew is Yahweh. All are transliterations agreed upon by the majority of Bible scholars so that the known sounds of God’s name would be preserved . So why would anyone wanting a relationship based on truth with their “God of truth” continue using the mistaken representation “Jehovah”. One point (step) at a time, that’s the best I can do. We must cover distance, take the truth and the conclusion/landmark drawn from that truth and move on, UP the path. So one point, undisputed by any religion we know of, Catholic or Jehovah’s Witnesses (check the Insight on the Scriptures). We can move on now with common ground established and taken as our truth, right?

    If you need more proof outside of say the encyclopedia or the dictionary, you might look to the scholarly writings of whatever Christian denomination you associate with now. The alternative is we could post several pages of historic and present factual proof relating the information from our past writings but I think we’ve covered it to the necessary depth to make our point for this site, right? Are we Blogging yet?

    Sincerely, with love for our fellow pursuers, the travelers

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveler I will answer you shortly when I get time to read the post. I think I need to share why I left. For entirely different reasons than you think. Give me a couple hours, working now.

    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

      Hi,
      I read your posts and find them interesting enough to hold my attention. I do like hearing all the different thoughts. I agree with the use of Jehovah as opposed to Yahweh. It is usually long but i enjoy reading. Thanks.

      • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

        replying to traveler and myself. A correction….I meant i agree with the use of Yahweh as opposed to Jehovah.

      • traveler

        sorry Brandon I wrote you a short post but it didn’t post for some reason and disappeared. I’ll try again later

        • traveler

          yah you are right on Brandon. “Travelers” refers to coverers of distance in drawing closer to God through steps of reason, “walking with God”. However we are just completing the restore of our 1970 vw bus, “nevrfalia” and we live on a 47 foot cutter rigged sloop that we hope to soon finish and sail, living most of the time on the hook. This should supply us with a rich physical life without a lot of money, which we do not have. Being on the greatest adventure with our brothers and sisters mankind has ever known takes care of the rest.

          • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

            hi, that sounds like a very good life indeed! My wife and i are in a sense travelers as well when it comes to these things, though our meeting together with others is somewhat limited as where we are, we have met very few individuals that are of a similar spiritual mindset. We are in a very rural area and after the experience my wife and I had with the local Jw congregation we no longer join them for any fellowship. Unfortunately as we are a mixed and blended family race played a role in this though that was only a small part of it. We hold no ill will toward them but as more than a few of them showed their true colors we keep our distance. we are neither dis-fellowshipped nor officially dis-associated but are mostly treated as such. We both do our studies with bible students, her class is different than mine yet at the same time with our two children we are a “church” at home when we gather together for spiritual things. Perhaps if you ever attend a bible student convention near us or are just traveling through our small part of the world we could have a coffee and talk, I think face to face conversation is always a bit more easy to have good spiritual discussion.

            • traveler

              Hi Brandon, we’d love to visit your part of the world if possible. Thanks for the insight into your life. Sounds like you and your wife are on the right trail. We too are thankful for the help the organization gave us but refuse to worship the ruling body because of it. So if you’ve been following for awhile you’ve seen that Jehovah is not a good choice to address your God, father and friend. We’d love to go through the information you’ve already learned and help you see how it fits together, logically. The key as we’ve said is to arrive at an overview that allows a framework for logical order. Just a couple of fun things for now though. We assume you have the watchtower library disc. They don’t like to promote personal research any more as you’ve seen from the new Bible with few references. Anyway back to fun, right. You of course have heard and probably used the explanation of “Hallelujah” being a shortened form of “praise Jah” or praise Jehovah”. Well check your Watchtower library disc for “Jah” (Latin). It will have a button at the top that allows you to hear the pronunciation. You will find it is “praise Yah” (English pronunciation of Latin) not the English representation of a mispronunciation, Jah.

              Here is both the real explanation and the organization’s explanation of Morning Star.

              Morning Star
              The following is a subject that we ran into by chance and we leave to the reader to research further. Reading about astronomy in a scientific work, we found the following statement:

              “ the misconception that the Morning star or Daystar is one of the planets that are illuminated in the sky early in the morning, is so prevalent, that you can still find it in print to our day, even in some dictionaries”.

              The article goes on to point out that any star that constitutes a cycle of dark and light (night and day) on a neighboring body is its Daystar or Morningstar, and that this has been an accepted definition in astronomy for centuries.

              (Revelation 22:16) 16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”

              (Job 38:4) . . .Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.

              (Job 38:7) . . .When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

              The angels’ job of presenting truth to mankind represented the difference between an enlightened state of mind and darkness of mind, thus Jesus could rightly call himself “the bright morning star”.

              The following is a quote from the organization’s publication showing that the organization is apparently under the same misconception as the general public:

              *** it-2 p. 1033 Star ***
              “Daystar.” The expression “daystar” (Gr., pho•spho′ros) occurs once, at 2 Peter 1:19, and is similar in meaning to “morning star.” Such stars at certain seasons of the year are the last stars to rise on the eastern horizon before the sun appears and thus are heralds of the dawn of a new day. Peter’s previous reference to the vision of Jesus’ transfiguration in magnificent glory suggests a relation to his entering into kingly power as “the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star [a•ster′].”—Re 22:16; 2:26-28.

              Yes just one small piece set straight, but isn’t that what it’s all about when we make our minds over.

              Things to think about until we can have a proper conversation or correspondence.

              1. According to the present truth, unless you are anointed , you cannot cross from death to life. This happens only for the 144,000.

              2. You cannot receive holy spirit personally, but only its benefits from the insights given through the receiving of it by the 144,000. Yes we’ve had to take many elders to the publications to show them this one, the misconception is so prevalent among the general body of witnesses that they get holy spirit.

              3. The title “Jehovah’s Witness” is a title coined by Rutherford to single out the 144,000 from all other so called Christians. This title applies only to the anointed to this day, having never been changed by the ruling body to apply to any others. The legal department did however make this statement part of the baptismal questions to try to hold more sway over the general population, “you acknowledge that you are becoming one of Jehovah’s witnesses”. Of course both the person asking and the person answering must understand the statement, and that it applies only if you are “anointed”. I believe the old saying “let ignorance serve for innocence” is being applied here. This is somewhat like the knowledge that the Watchtower is written to the 144,000 to aid them. So when it says “you will receive holy spirit” you see how the misunderstanding arises in the general population.

              4. The last for today is, you are not going to be in the new system. You are not going to be in the grave. You are not going to receive a resurrection. How can we say that? Well think about this:

              The “the present truth” is that “not one thing is saved in death”
              “Your candle goes out and you just cease to exist.” Note here they aren’t saying you cease to have existence, but that you cease to exist.

              Yes the organization uses all kinds of conditions to describe you in the grave, go figure. The final punch line of the organization (you’ve heard it before): when it’s time for you to come out of the grave (remember them telling you that you ceased to exist at death, you are nothing) God makes a “new” body and from “his” memories reprograms the new mind to have exactly the type of thoughts you had.

              Nobody seems to follow that step by step and wonder how did “I” figure into that. How did “I” receive my reward and inheritance. No we didn’t share identity with God within his mind, kind of “theory of the trinity”. It is clearly stated “from His memories”, nothing to do with the original identity, you.

              Yes we’ve covered these on some level in our posts here, but the post is never as interesting until you start to get them as realizations within yourself and the beliefs that frame your reality.

              You and your family have our love Brother. Hang in there.

    • just Stay Sweet and Good

      Traveler……..have you considered this information? It seems when the English language was forming that the Catholic monks were spot on in the way they decided to pronounce the tetragramaton because they had access to the Jewish scholars at that time who did know how to pronounce it in Hebrew with the soft Y…Yehovah….but just wouldn’t do it because of fear of desecration of “the name”. When I was in Isreal last November those who would discuss it with me just said..no, no, we don’t use the name we only say “Ha Hasim” which means “the name”. All of this information has been revealed in the last couple of years by this fellow, Nehiemiah Gordon, who has been translating thousands of Jewish: https://www.nehemiaswall.com/1000-manuscripts-yehovah manuscripts that have been behind the iron curtain and ignored.

      https://www.nehemiaswall.com/1000-manuscripts-yehovah

      • traveler

        Hi JSSG, Yes, we’re aware of the information you brought out. As for the Catholic monks being spot on, well let’s say they thought they were spot on with many versions, some more accurate than others. Yehovah was closer, true, but not the best example they came up with. English was a developing tongue in Germany which as you mentioned contributed to the mispronunciation. In general the present day people claiming to be Jews as you’ve seen are no more reliable than those who claimed to be Jews in Jesus day. The general community of Scholars arrived at the form JHVH, pronounced Yahweh in an English transliteration. When recording it in Latin this is the pronunciation arrived at after the dust settled. While this looks like it fits Yehovah we see again that JHVH the Latin form is YHWH in English when pronounced, again the V in Latin is pronounced with a W sound in English, so Yehovah is closer. Remember we have the original writings for major translations and the grasp of a scholar who translates is only as good as his training and mind allow. Nationalities really have little to do with it. The point was that there are logical and respectful names we can use for the “God of Truth” other than a representation of a mistake.

        While it may not directly be related to the transliteration of the sounds of “Tongue” which is what we are talking about here, we will post a “short” consideration Of “language” which is not interchangeable with Tongue but is mistakenly used by some as if it were. The reason for this post is that words, and their connection to tongue, can only be translated accurately if you understand Language as the conceptual image behind the words used by all tongues. This is important because it is the Language that is inspired in the Bible. Even further, Language must be understood accurately if you are to hear the word of God. That’s why it says not to argue over words. Having looked over Mr. Gordon’s site I applaud his effort but as for his having found God’s name complete I think he needs to keep at it with his search. The information he’s bringing out has long been known. I see that he includes thoughts from Jehovah’s Witnesses’ publications. I remember they have a very good consideration on Jehovah’s name although within the consideration the author loses sight of that fact that the information he’s shared at one point makes clear that using an English representation of a mispronunciation (Jehovah) is inappropriate. This may be one of those places that Franz said he fudged trying to fit information to the organization’s position, figuring (and rightly so) that few would notice since few look into either the Bible or the Insight on the Scriptures, in any depth.

        We’d like to leave you with this thought: while the world is distracted by those claiming to be Jews, as they were in Jesus day, these same people are still aided by the title they coined, Christians. This was and is an obvious attempt to deny the validity of Jesus as king of the Jews. It is clear, as Paul brought out, that the true Jews left with Jesus. These true Jews will inherit their land again, the Earth, and Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will be reestablished, not on Earth but in the air so that all prophecies, again as Paul points out, will be fulfilled. We, the true Jews now adoptive sons of Jesus’ Father and ours, will as the twelve tribes inherit this. The Father and his son who to this day are rejected by those falsely still trying to claim they are God’s people will not inherit using this false claim. These will play a roll but a roll they would like to hide as they tried to hide it from Jesus. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts which seem well thought out brother.

    • Henry H.(bible student)

      Hi Traveler,I noticed in your comments that you refer to “we” & “our” quite a bit. I would like to know do you represent others who might have opinions on theses matters? Just curious as to whom we’re talking to. Much like your interest in where your comments are directed.Jacqueline,Peter,etc….

  • traveler

    Hi Chris, we quote what is true as we’ve found it in connection with the Bible. This is also true when we quote Russell or Franz for example. If the gate were not narrow suggests a prejudice against that direction that make it simpler to go another way. If the truth you find was always with friends or well liked expressions, surely Jesus would never have been put to death. Jesus suffered outside the gates of his community which suggests also that while you may be connected with an organization or denomination, eventually in your pursuit you will outdistance them and have to take a stand for truth on your own. There is a Professor Wright, a scholar within the Catholic religion who is held as a Bible scholar world wide. He has recently started writing about his realization that no one goes to heaven. I could quote him also, except while he has the right idea, he doesn’t clearly understand how to establish it in the scriptures. I wouldn’t want to further confuse those who haven’t arrived logically at this fact.

    • Anon CJ

      I don’t believe in “Bible Scholars.” We have scholars in the Seventh-day Adventists that disagree with Catholic scholars. When it comes to history and language yes they may be scholars, but there are no theology scholars. As for the idea that none go to heaven, i too have heard this. This starts with the assumption that since God created man to live on the earth then no one goes to heaven. Much like if you’ve seen my debate with the false error that “Interested” started with the notion that Jesus did not prexist. Or since the NT doesn’t mention fleshly Israel then they aren’t in Gods plan. This is eisegesis and not exegesis. I don’t quote anything from the WT because they convinced me I was going to live on the earth and and had no prospect of ruling with Christ. This was an error. And I have read their 1935 magazine on the Great Crowd and why they believe they will live on the earth and not heaven. They don’t know how to rightly divide the word or truth. They apply passages from Pslams to that of the Christian age. They always have to go to the OT to get passahes for Christians to make them believe that they will live on the earth and not heaven.

  • traveler

    Part two.

    TRANSFER

    As the organization has pointed out many times, an understanding of the hope of the resurrection is the difference between a true pursuit of God and a false one. We believe that many will pursue a relationship with God having an inaccurate foundation, not realizing this fact and still do it honestly. The present truth expressing the idea that we cease to exist at death rather than cease to have existence, is the difference between an accurate understanding and a misunderstanding of the hope. A consideration of the nature of the only begotten son becoming a man is the way to set this conceptual foundation information straight. It is interesting that the organization describes the process accurately when it explains the transfer of the only begotten son’s life force to earth to become a man, then loses track of his basic nature, his identity when he enters the grave. We consider this early in the paper because this explanation of transfer and its direct application to the hope of a resurrection is the only way the Bible can be pursued with any chance of understanding in a logical, connected path to draw closer to Yahweh.

    We have developed a simple picture example of the transfer. The picture of an angel and the image of Jesus are used only because these images have long been used by the world, much like the use of Jehovah as the preferred pronunciation of God’s name by those who do not have a clear under standing that Jehovah is a representation of a mispronunciation of the Latin term Yahweh.

    In the first figure on the left you have the only begotten son. The lower image on the right is the man Jesus, and the process of transfer is represented by the space between the two images. Yahweh is present overhead in all three spaces.

    The following is a discussion of the process of transfer given in “Insight on the Scriptures” Page 56, “Jesus’ Birth on Earth”, broken down into the logical steps as they are expressed.

    1) The only begotten son empties his SELF, his essence, as far as a being can be broken down. This essence, life force/identity, is emptied out of the son’s body into the keeping of Yahweh, meaning God’s son loses his consciousness since the body with its mind is necessary to have conscious thought. At this point in the transfer the son’s life force exists, and is in Yahweh’s keeping, or is preserved alive. It exists but does not have existence, which requires awareness of one’s self.

    2) Yahweh takes his son’s life force/identity and transfers it into the egg/body formed in the womb of Mary. Thus the identity is maintained as it logically must be “Only in this way”, as the organization rightly states. It might also be pointed out here that Yahweh would have to apply a full complement of his holy spirit so that the one born would be perfect, and through this holy spirit able to carry out the law having the appropriate mental capacity and self control necessary to do so.

    (Revelation 4:11) 11 “You are worthy, Yahweh, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

    We draw attention to this scripture because of its relevance to the point that when something, or in this case a being, is willed to be by Yahweh, it is; the being exists to Yahweh. For an animate creation this scripture means that when it is created it is an intellectual limitation on a quantity of his energy and is separated in identity when Yahweh wills it, not when it begins to think,

    *** it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ ***
    Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven as the Word, and only in this way could he have been an actual son of Mary and hence a genuine descendant of her forefathers Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David and legitimate heir of the divine promises made to them.

    We understand that in the case of the son of God and Jesus, while they are the same person in identity, the distinction between the two names was one of condition, the nature of existence, and the form in which it was experienced. One is of a spiritual body and its existence, the other of a physical body and its existence. Jesus had to be exactly as his brothers in all respects in order to answer the part of the question that Satan raised, “Can any of mankind stand?” In this way, although being the same in identity as God’s son, Jesus could represent and have physical connection with mankind. As a man, he represents the best example to review in almost every consideration related to us.

    (Hebrews 2:14-18) . . .Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; 15 and [that] he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. 16 For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed [we talk later about who Abraham’s offspring really are]. 17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.

    It is printed present truth by the organization that the only begotten son and Jesus both had a personal spirit on which their identity depended. “Insight on the Scriptures”, Vol. 2, page 56 under the heading, “His Birth on Earth” gives us a clear and logical
    breakdown of the only begotten son, and the man Jesus. Note the use of the term “incarnation”, the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form. More simply stated, to retain or receive heavenly awareness from a previous heavenly existence while in physical form. This was not the case with Jesus at any time, that he became more than a man while on earth.

    *** it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ ***
    “His Birth on Earth. Prior to Jesus’ birth on earth, angels had appeared on this planet in human form, apparently materializing suitable bodies for the occasion, then dematerializing them after completing such assignments. (Ge 19:1-3; Jg 6:20-22; 13:15-20) They thus remained spirit creatures, merely employing a physical body temporarily. This, however, was not the case with the coming of God’s Son to earth to become the man Jesus. John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh and resided among us.” For that reason he could call himself “the Son of man.” (Joh 1:51; 3:14, 15) Some draw attention to the expression “resided [literally, “tented”] among us” and claim this shows Jesus was, not a
    true human, but an incarnation. However, the apostle Peter uses a similar expression about himself, and Peter was obviously not an incarnation.—2Pe 1:13, 14.
    The inspired Record says: “But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by Holy Spirit before they were united.” (Mt 1:18) Prior to this, Yahweh’s angelic messenger had informed the virgin girl Mary that she would ‘conceive in her womb’ as the result of God’s Holy Spirit coming upon her and His power overshadowing her. (Lu 1:30, 31, 34, 35) Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum, or egg cell (SOURCE OF BODY), in Mary’s womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. (Ga 4:4) Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven as the Word, and only in this way could he have been an actual son of Mary and hence a genuine descendant of her forefathers Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David and legitimate heir of the divine promises made to them.

    This is the simple breakdown of the event as the Bible, and “Insight on the Scriptures” explains it. In the tradition expressed at Acts 9:22 “…he proved logically that this is the Christ”, we will also prove this. As already explained, Jesus was not incarnate, meaning that he did not retain his heaven developed mental makeup or thoughts. It says that he emptied himself (Philippians 2:5-8), or gave up his spiritual body with its mind’s ability to hold his mental makeup/thoughts. Yahweh then transferred his spirit/life force
    the part designating being, the beginning intellectual limit on a quantity of energy–Jesus’ spirit — the smallest part remaining of one’s identity or being, into the new body/ovum with its potential mind in Mary’s womb. Again, the main point is that the life force was “tented” within the body, as opposed to the being taking form which clearly involves bringing with that being his mental makeup/thoughts, constituting it incarnate. Yahweh was present during the transfer, but no part of Yahweh’s thoughts constituted identity for either being, God’s son or Jesus. The use of the term “tented” now having a logical understanding to go with it, would make the connection to the rest of mankind and the scripture, Rev 21: 3 easier to understand.

    (Revelation 21:3) . . .“Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. . .

    *** it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ ***
    Some draw attention to the expression “resided [literally, “tented”] among us” and claim this shows Jesus was, not a True human, but an incarnation. However, the apostle Peter uses a similar expression about himself, and Peter was obviously not an incarnation.—2Pe 1:13, 14.

    (Luke 23:46) . . .And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” When he had said this, he expired. . .

    (Acts 7:59-60) . . .And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Yahweh, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].

    (Psalm 31:superscription-5) To the director. A melody of David. 31 In you, O Yahweh, have I taken refuge. O may I never be ashamed. In your righteousness provide escape for me. 2 Incline to me your ear. Deliver me speedily. Become for me a rocky stronghold, A house of strongholds to save me. 3 For you are my crag and my stronghold; And for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me. 4 You will bring me out of the net that they have hidden for me, For you are my fortress. 5 Into your hand I entrust my spirit. You have redeemed me, O Yahweh the God of truth.

    The connection between Jesus as a man and Steven, along with the rest of mankind is an easy one to see from here.

    It is reasonable to say that from Yahweh’s thoughts/memory, as we will see later, it would be possible to re-introduce the thoughts exactly to an individual body, spiritual or physical. This would be possible only if it has its identity intact, through a process that keeps its life force preserved in transfer or in the grave. This allows for the ransom being applied to the original being, or judgment of the original person in the resurrection.

    This is a good place to point out that the organization’s statement that “the heavens were opened up to Jesus at baptism” meaning that he regained his pre-earthly awareness is not a possibility.

    As stated in “Insight on the Scriptures” earlier, this would mean that he would then be incarnate and not a corresponding ransom.

    (1 Timothy 2:5-6) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—

    Within the asking of the question “Can any of mankind, perfect or otherwise, stand?” the possibilities would have to embrace all abilities and advantages given to the first perfect human, Adam. Adam was taught directly by Yahweh’s agents and had access to information from heaven directly. Thus in this case, the scriptures are referring to the fact that once Jesus found himself and proceeded to the point of baptism, he also could have the same advantage. Having gained a stand as a “son of God” he could be taught directly from heaven. If he had chosen not to offer himself in the role of Christ, contact with God on this level would not have been offered.

    *** it-2 p. 56 Jesus Christ ***

    “ we read: (Ge 22:15-18; 26:24; 28:10-14; 49:10; 2Sa 7:8, 11-16; Lu 3:23-34; see GENEALOGY OF JESUS CHRIST.) It is likely, therefore, that the child born resembled its Jewish mother in certain physical characteristics.
    Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary’s ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God’s Holy Spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God’s purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, “power of the Most High” overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s Holy Spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.—Lu 1:35.
    Since it was God’s Holy Spirit that made the birth possible, Jesus owed his human life to his heavenly Father, not to any man, such as his adoptive father Joseph. (Mt 2:13-15; Lu 3:23) As Hebrews 10:5 states, Jehovah God ‘prepared a body for him,’ and Jesus, from conception onward, was truly “undefiled, separated from the sinners.”—Heb 7:26; compare Joh 8:46; 1Pe 2:21, 22.
    The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 52:14, which speaks of “the disfigurement as respects his appearance,” therefore must apply to Jesus the Messiah only in physical form, the message of truth and righteousness that Jesus Christ boldly proclaimed made him repulsive in the eyes of hypocritical opposers, who claimed to see in him an agent of Beelzebub, a man possessed of a demon, a blasphemous fraud. (Mt 12:24; 27:39-43; Joh 8:48; 15:17-25) In a similar way the message proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples later caused them to be “a sweet odor” of life to receptive persons, but an odor of death to those rejecting their message.—2Co

    (Philippians 2:5-8) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man,. . .”

    “the disfigurement as respects his appearance,” It could be pointed out here the organization’s references to scientific studies that show that with the right environment, a plentiful food source and absence of disease, the human form would increase in size and could be used to understand why Jesus was described as disfigured. We could also add a consideration of the Neph′i•lim who were products of the combination of perfect and imperfect bodies, with the resulting larger person, a giant. This would seem to make it obvious that in Isaiah 52:14 where it speaks of the disfigurement as respects Jesus’ appearance, that it must be connected to the statement in Philippians 2:5-8 of Jesus’ physical condition as “having taken slave’s form”. We can see that the translator here who had a more accurate grasp of the event should have chosen , “accepted” or “received” instead of taken. We know Jesus was not in control of this process.

    Without a perfect environment, our already considered scientific position and logic would tell us that slave’s form means that although he was perfect, he was a size and shape that fit into his surroundings, getting this from his mother who was in slave’s form. If given a full complement of the holy spirit it would heal and take on the right form as those who live to the presence of Jesus will. This means that the form is caused by the sin and the resulting stress and sickness in the first place. Jesus had the full complement of holy spirit but had to fulfill Yahweh’s will. Therefore, as an angel takes on form to come to earth, Jesus was given a form from his mother which was appropriate to the task at hand and understood this as a condition he must remain in to fulfill Yahweh’s will; he was “disfigured”.

    Returning to the discussion of identity, identity based on life force (the only way) will also be considered relating to death.

    In the next section we consider Jesus’ death, and how his identity was maintained so that he could be returned to heaven as “the same individual” that was transferred to earth, and thus the nature of death and resurrection for us, since Jesus was a man.

    RESURRECTION

    The Hope of The Resurrection

    We again bring attention to the stated position of Jehovah’s organization, one with which we whole heartedly agree.
    .
    *** W05 5/1 pp. 9-10 par. 8 the Resurrection—A Teaching That Affects You ***

    “Yes, so fundamental is the teaching of the resurrection that the Christian faith is in vain if the resurrection is not accepted as a reality.
    Indeed, the correct understanding of the resurrection sets true Christians apart from the false.”

    The Consideration of Resurrection
    In Jesus’ case, at death he gives up his body with its ability to hold thoughts in the mind, and entrusts his spirit to Yahweh. Jesus’ body is eventually done away with by Yahweh. A similar process to the only begotten son when his life force was transferred to the womb of Mary,

    (Luke 23:46) 46 And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” When he had said this, he expired. . .

    Remember that at death it is his spirit that his identity depends on as it was in the transfer. The term resurrection has nothing to do with the giving of life as a statement, as shown in the following definition given by the organization:

    Resurrection: to stand before or take responsibility for one’s actions in relation to Jehovah.

    Resurrection is not the return to living or conscious existence.

    To take responsibility for one’s actions (to receive a resurrection) means to receive the reward. In Jesus’ case this was his return to consciousness by Yahweh, and the return to existence on earth through the out-resurrection reward. Due to a misunderstanding by the organization they call this the “first resurrection” rather than “out-resurrection” as it is in the original tongue.

    We note in the case of Jesus that he was returned to life on earth by resurrection through the Abrahamic covenant and then ascended to heaven by the personal covenant with Yahweh his Father to receive his two part inheritance. This is perhaps the first time you have heard the consideration that there is no resurrection directly to heaven, but it will occur again. Yahweh took Jesus’ life force from the memorial tomb. Jesus stood unjudged before Yahweh, and in a transfer like process his life force was put into a new body (spiritual) thus giving him existence again on earth. Yahweh then replaced the thoughts that Jesus and the only begotten son had generated within both existences, one spiritual and one physical, by using Yahweh’s own perfect memory (Acts 17:31).

    (Acts 17:31) . . .Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

    Jesus was allowed to make himself manifest to, or seen physically by mankind after his resurrection to a spiritual body, which in this time after the flood was allowed only by direct permission of Yahweh.

    (John 20:17) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’. . .

    Under the Abrahamic covenant with God, Jesus as a “son of Israel” was the first of the “sons of God” to cross over from death to life by exercising faith in the things heard, and by being such received a resurrection to earth though those Abrahamic promises. Then through a special covenant between Jesus and Yahweh for a kingdom rule, he was “called” as God’s son to ascend to heaven after finishing his time on earth to receive his inheritance.

    (Acts 10:40-41) . . .God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, (seen on earth by man)41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

    Yes, there is no resurrection to heaven, not for Jesus nor for the 144,000 of the chosen ones, those to hear a call after Jesus descends from heaven to meet him in the air to become the ruling new Jerusalem, replacing the present god of the air, Satan. You must read and examine each statement carefully, clearly identifying the steps, and the promises and covenants fulfilled, in order to keep track of events as they unfold logically. The 144,000, the ones chosen for the new Jerusalem rule, are discussed in another section of the paper. However, we will say here that all of the “sons of Israel” have a “heavenly” calling since it is from Yahweh in the heavens that all hear the call and have their hope which is different from a call to meet Jesus after he descends from heaven to rule with his co- kings over the earth.

    We believe that the only reason the example of this logical train of thought (the transfer of Christ,” the only way”) exists in the publications of “Insight on the Scriptures” Vol. 2, page 56″, and Watchtower, January 1, 2005 Questions from the Readers, relating Stephen’s request is because the brother or brothers writing just went through the process of transfer and Stephen’s request logically. They did not realize that what they presented was in opposition to what the organization considers the present truth. We can see that Ray Franz and his writing team, responsible for the bulk of the information in the ‘Insight on the Scriptures”, were later disfellowshipped for various false reasons.

    Type of Resurrection

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Yahweh’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

    (1 Corinthians 15:20-24) . . .However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the first fruits , afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.

    There are two types of resurrection made up of differing aspects.

    1. The resurrection of the righteous: Jesus and all those belonging to him (the righteous). The out-resurrection.

    2. The resurrection of the unrighteous: Takes place, leaving the dead in Hades, now no longer a place of remembrance (memorial tomb) by Yahweh.

    We will discuss the two resurrection events in order.

    1. Jesus, the first resurrection, the only one performed by Yahweh. Jesus as firstborn of the “Israel of God” received an out-resurrection to earth, by Abrahamic covenant and promise, and return to a spirit body, his original form. He is no longer tented but in his permanent dwelling, a mansion or spiritual body that is incorruptible. At this time he received the fulfillment of an adoption into the household of God as a permanent son. The term “firstborn” refers to the fact that he was the first to receive Yahweh’s spirit at baptism, the token of adoption and the increased power that went along with it. Thus he became alive to Yahweh, and secured a permanent reward. We will consider this further in the section “Crossing from Death to Life”.

    (Acts 10:40-41) . . .God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.

    (John 20:17) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’. . .

    Then upon ascending to heaven, Jesus as the firstborn of the sons of Israel and Son of God received his two parts in the Kingdom of God, kingship over heaven and earth, as king and priest, forever. Although it is thought this new spiritual body that Jesus received by the resurrection was by nature immortal, we see from the scriptures below that he put on immortality as a mantle or condition, “this which is mortal will put on immortality” (1 Co 15:53). He was perfect and thus already incorruptible, and was able to maintain that because of having a full complement of holy spirit by which Yahweh showed him “the ways of life”. The main point is that immortality is within the promise of an ongoing relationship with Yahweh by sworn oath or promise, thus allowing him to live forever. Therefore immortality is two-fold: one is the fulfillment of the promise of the resurrection, and two is the ongoing relationship with Yahweh. In our case this is accomplished by receiving the full amount of holy spirit and the control that comes with it at Armageddon in the twinkling.

    “It was not without a sworn oath, 21 (for there are indeed men that have become priests without a sworn oath, but there is one with an oath sworn by the One who said respecting him: “Yahweh has sworn (and he will feel no regret), ‘You are a priest forever,”)

    (1 Timothy 6:13-16) . . .In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.

    As a witness Jesus made this fine declaration of God’s will and nature before Pontius Pilate, and in it points out that Yahweh is the only one “having immortality”. Logically one sees that the capitalized King in the quote “King of kings” is Yahweh. While Jesus was to become a king among kings in that he would be over all others (144,000 co-kings), it follows that since he himself is to be subjected to the “Eternal King” Yahweh, Jesus’ title of king would not be capitalized.

    (1 Timothy 1:17) 17 Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, [the] only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    (Hebrews 7:18-28) . . .Certainly, then, there occurs a setting aside of the preceding commandment on account of its weakness and ineffectiveness. 19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in besides of a better hope did, through which we are drawing near to God. 20 Also, to the extent that it was not without a sworn oath, 21 (for there are indeed men that have become priests without a sworn oath, but there is one with an oath sworn by the One who said respecting him: “Yahweh has sworn (and he will feel no regret), ‘You are a priest forever,’”) 22 to that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. 25 Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them. 26 For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. 27 He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people: (for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up;) 28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.

    (Hebrews 7:28) . . .for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.

    The start of the out-resurrection, performed by Yahweh himself, fulfills the promise of inheritance given to Jesus while on earth through spirit of anointing and power, the token for him although the scriptures point out that it was with an anointing more than his brothers. The adoption of Jesus by Yahweh as a son of the true “Israel”, gave Jesus, who was already a physical son of Yahweh and a physical descendant of Abraham, the hope of an out-resurrection through the legal covenant between Yahweh and Abraham. It is important to understand that since Adam’s fall, the right to live to time indefinite was no longer a possibility even for Jesus. This can be seen logically if you consider what would have happened if Jesus did not offer himself to do God’s will. He had to cross over from death (Adam’s household) to life (Yahweh’s household) just as those after him would have to do, by exercising faith in Yahweh and in the Son of God and declaring it publicly, thus receiving the spirit of adoption and becoming alive to Yahweh. As an adult he took a personal stand that made him a “son of Israel” and in presenting himself for baptism he left the household of Joseph and entered the household of Yahweh as an adopted son. Remember the scriptures, Psalm 2:6-8 and Psalm 89:26-27:

    (Psalm 2:6-8) . . .[Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain.” 7 Let me refer to the decree of Yahweh; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

    (Psalm 89:26-27) . . .He himself calls out to me, ‘You are my Father, My God and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.

    Jesus was the firstborn or first fruits, the first to cross over from death to life of the “sons of Israel”, and as such was appointed king over the “Israel of God” while on earth. At his resurrection he was then given kingship, by inheritance, over both the heavens and the earth. first over the earth through his connection with Abraham as first born, then king over the heavens through his Father Yahweh.

    The on-going part of the out-resurrection continues at the beginning of the Judgment Day, for the rest of the “sons of Israel”.

    The term used for those in this on going resurrection is a Greek word translated “out-resurrection”. This is the resurrection from the memorial tombs that takes place at Armageddon for those living to Yahweh. This would contrast with the unrighteous who never leave the grave (Hades) during their resurrection.

    *** Rbi8 Philippians 3:11 ***
    “Earlier resurrection.” Lit., “out-resurrection.” Gr., e•xa•na′sta•sin.

    Paul wanted this promise of a resurrection out of the grave by ransom from death to the earth, and then to receive the full complement of the spirit (changed upon resurrection along with those living). By this resurrection they receive their inheritance under Abrahamic covenant, which is a body that can live to time indefinite without seeing corruption, or in other words they are changed; they become incorruptible by receiving the full complement of holy spirit.

    Remember that the holy spirit does different things at different times. Sometimes the receiving of it is a permanent gift, i.e. “spirit of understanding” given through Christ after his resurrection and ascension to heaven. Another use of holy spirit in relation to the “sons of Israel” is that with the self control gained from the spirit they “put on” the incorruptibleness that allows them to live forever, a process they start before physical death with the “token of spirit given to them in the adoption process, by making their minds over. This allows them to put on immortality by being able to fulfill their obligation to Yahweh, in that as “sons of Israel” they are promised a relationship with Yahweh in which they will not see death again.

    The 144,000, also “sons of Israel”, receive a special privilege of shared rule over the earth through a new covenant made by Jesus with the full body of the sons of Israel. These 144,000 are raised up princes in the land at Armageddon upon their resurrection to earth, and receive the fulfillment of the call by meeting Christ in the air to rule over the earth as the new Jerusalem. This number sealed by the information that Jesus revealed, along with their brothers, constitute the sons of Israel. All these were bought from the earth. under the price paid by Yahweh and delivered by Christ. Thus these sons of Israel through this new covenant receive a partial share, one part in inheritance of the firstborn Jesus. Being the firstborn of the “sons of Israel” Jesus received a two part inheritance from our Father of his kingdom interests. As a result of Jesus making a covenant with Israel, the 144,000 share one part rule with Christ over the earth.

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) 13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Yahweh’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

    Note that Jesus,
    First — descends from heaven,

    Second — resurrects all the righteous asleep in death back to life (earlier or out resurrection), and

    Third — he changes all of those resurrected now returned to life, and those still living on the earth, in a twinkling. After this the 144,000 made up by those alive that hear the call to meet Jesus in the air and those who have just received an out-resurrection who now also hear the call, fulfill the new covenant promise “to meet the Lord in the air”. This then establishes the new administration replacing the god of “the air”, Satan.

    We will mention here again the problem created by thinking that the 144,000 constitute the entirety of the “sons of Israel” and this will be discussed in detail under the heading Kingdom. However, for now it hinges somewhat on Revelation 20:4,5 for the general population of witnesses.

    (Revelation 20:4-6) 4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.

    We note in Rev. 20:4 first that two groups are described: those that sat down on thrones and those to be ruled over and judged, although the translation of the last of verse 4 makes it appear that there is only one group, the kings. The problem again results from viewing the 144,000 as the whole of the “sons of Israel” by the organization of Jehovah’s witness’s and the application of this understanding by those who oversee the translation used by the organization. When you consider The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, at Revelation 20:4, 5, you see that if you already understand that the “sons of Israel” are constituted by all those in union with Christ, all those exercising faith, all of the sons of Israel it reads quite differently at verse 4 and makes the paraphrased verse 5 of the New World Translation Bible not work at all. Yes we are noting that the statement in verse 5 in the New World Translation of the Bible is a paraphrase, not a translation of the original. Taking this into consideration the verses would read like the following:

    (Revelation 20:4-6) 4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived and they reigned with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 The leftover [those in Hades] of the dead did not live to the end of the thousand years. This is the first (out) resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first (out) resurrection; over these the second death has no authority. But they [” those of the sons of Israel”] will be priests of God, and of [in union with] Christ and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

    This is another translation of verse 5 where the rest of the dead are ended or cast into the lake of fire.

    *** Rbi8 Revelation ***
    “The rest of the dead . . . were ended,” AVg; אSyp omit.

    The ruling and the ruled are always with Yahweh in his purposes. This is why Paul said at Philippians 3:11 that he wanted the resurrection out of the grave if possible. His thinking possibly related to the realization of his unworthiness as one unfit for life having been responsible for many of the brothers’ deaths.

    (Philippians 3:11) 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.

    Note here the reason for using the expression “earlier resurrection” is the miss-understanding held by the organization that the first resurrection relates only to the 144,000, when in fact the Greek word used meant out-resurrection, implying that Paul wanted to be one of the “sons of Israel” to be resurrected out of the memorial tombs and not one of those left in Hades to receive a resurrection to judgment or in other words, destruction.

    *** Rbi8 Philippians 3:11 ***
    “Earlier resurrection.” Lit., “out-resurrection.” Gr., e•xa•na′sta•sin.

    *** it-2 pp. 787-788 Resurrection ***
    First resurrection. Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the resurrection of those who will reign with Christ as “the first resurrection.” The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].” (Php 3:11, NW, Ro, Int) On the expression Paul uses here, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1931, Vol. IV, p. 454) says: “Apparently Paul is thinking here only of the resurrection of believers out from the dead and so double ex [out] (ten exanastasin ten ek nekron). Paul is not denying a general resurrection by this language, but emphasizing that of believers.” Charles Ellicott’s Commentaries (1865, Vol. II, p. 87) remarks on Philippians 3:11: “‘The resurrection from the dead;’ i.e., as the context suggests, the first resurrection (Rev. xx. 5), when, at the Lord’s coming the dead in Him shall rise first.

    Remember here the true nature of death and the memorial tombs and how it relates to the resurrection. This was not understood by those trying to make sense of these passages, and they did not really understand how the term resurrection related to the dead, either righteous or unrighteous.

    If, as the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses believe, all cease to exist or become nothing at death and this misunderstanding is used, trying to piece together these scriptures is very difficult, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

    You can see now why the organization has pointed out their conclusion that understanding the resurrection hope separates those on the true path and those on the false one. First because it does, and second it seems because they haven’t figured out that it shows they do not understand it. Do keep in mind though that we all come onto the path at whatever point the ones orally teaching us have reached, and then it becomes our personal obligation to Yahweh to pursue from there. So maybe in time those of the honest hearted will arrive at an appropriate understanding of resurrection.

    Resurrection to Judgment

    (John 5:25-29) . . .“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

    In John 5:25 Jesus arrives and reveals the will of God. Those exercising faith cross from death to life when they exercise this awareness. In 26 we see that the Father has life within him in that he has the understandings leading to life. And now the son is allowed also to have life in himself and he reveals this to mankind. Jesus asks that the spirit of understanding be poured out on the true “sons of Israel” allowing them to understand the things heard. The holy spirit when received gives the mental capacity allowing the one receiving it to grasp the revealed truth or path, the way of thinking. With power over the grave, when Jesus arrives at Armageddon he is able to see clearly which ones of humanity have received the token of adoption and have crossed from death to life by promise and exercise of faith in Yahweh and his Christ. Thus at this point he is able to call out of the memorial tombs all those who are not under the judgment of condemnation, or in other words still under the law, dead to Yahweh. This now leaves in the grave only those who are no longer remembered by Yahweh (memorial tombs). The grave is now Hades or the grave of the dead. Those left in Hades receive a resurrection of judgment (stand before God) and now await the coming destruction. Remember that resurrection does not mean return to existence but is a reward based on personal responsibility, i.e., the wages that sin pays are death.

    Once again so this is clear in your minds: This means that they stand before Yahweh (resurrected), exist without consciousness, and take responsibility for actions in the old system without the benefit of forgiveness through the ransom. It is enough to note that they did not listen to or exercise faith in the son, and thus have not called on Yahweh for release from the grave or to take part in the out-resurrection. The reward for their actions or works is that they are left in the grave, now just Hades and no longer memorial tombs, and arrive at the final judgment in a condemned state. This is contrasted with the out-resurrection of those who believe in Christ. These are released from the grave, to receive` continued existence, the word continued may be used because they have been preserved alive in the grave, identity preserved. Yahweh is also released from the responsibility of remembrance of the unrighteous, those now in Hades; their fate is tied to Satan’s fate and they are reserved to have their life force cast into the lake of fire along with him at the conclusion of the question. They did not exercise faith in Christ, and did not come to know Yahweh so as to call on his name, the result being that they receive no forgiveness as an undeserved kindness, but the reward for their actions. Thus they remain sinners and under the curse until the end.

    (1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?. . .

    It is also worth mentioning that as it stands today, the teaching by the organization that all of the unrighteous are resurrected or given life in the new system, would mean that the door to door work is life taking, not life saving. How is that? If one of those who turn away in this system was to be approached in the new system with a seen God, he would be more likely to follow or pursue than in this system of an unseen God. This so called prophetic door to door work can at best be expected to save only a remnant of the ones that associate with Yahweh’s people in this system, and so if left to face their chances by a resurrection into the new system and there to hear the word of a seen God, their chance of acceptance might be far greater. Of course this accepts for the moment the speculation that it is plausible that they can come into the new system by any means.
    If the time of the end is to be a time of an unseen God and no flesh could be saved if the time was not cut short, it follows that this statement refers to the fact that mankind as a whole would have lost sight of the possibility that God could or does exist.

    (Matthew 24:22) . . .In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

    This would mean that flesh could no longer be saved, the point being that this makes it a hard sell in the door to door work now having no real proof of God’s existence. But it is easily seen that the unrighteous coming into the new system by any means is logically not a possibility.

    We all believe that the witness work of sharing the truth we have is a life saving work. As one of the groups claiming to be a provision of God all those revealing or proclaiming Jesus serve God to some extent. Paul stated he was happy to see Jesus proclaimed for any reason.

    All of the “sons of Israel” who are in the memorial tombs at the out- resurrection are given return to existence. Each one of the “sons of Israel” has an inheritance through Abraham here on the earth. When they are resurrected or cross into the new system at Armageddon, they receive the completing of the process they began to put on the incorruptible clothing so as not to be found naked in the eyes of God. This is achieved by receiving the full complement of the spirit promised, of which they already have a token, and the self control and mental capacity derived from this full complement allows for the living up to or in fulfillment of God’s will. Now with body and spirit in harmony, in a twinkling they receive health, fresher than youth, and the ability to fulfill the obligation of relationship with God. The statement at 1Corinthians 15:52-57 “For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.” has been fulfilled. The statement at 1 Corinthians 15 is completely fulfilled by the writing of all of the sons on earth into the book of life: the sons of Israel from this system along with those born in the new system as they are also written in.

    (Philippians 4:2-7) . . .Eu•o′di•a I exhort and Syn′ty•che I exhort to be of the same mind in [the] Lord. 3 Yes, I request you too, genuine yokefellow, keep assisting these [women] who have striven side by side with me in the good news along with Clement as well as the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. 4 Always rejoice in [the] Lord. Once more I will say, Rejoice! 5 Let YOUR reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let YOUR petitions be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.

    (Revelation 3:4-6) . . .‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar′dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy. 5 He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

    (1 Corinthians 15:52-57) . . .For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

    (Revelation 21:3-4) . . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    Having reached this point in the consideration it would be appropriate to bring up a notable exception that happens at this first part of the judgment. Those declared righteous by faith and living at Armageddon, thus covered by the ransom, are allowed to cross into the new system alive and not see death. Remember that they are covered by the hope of The resurrection and its reward. In this statement we see that the hope of the resurrection would not refer to ours, but to Jesus’ by which all others become possible, and this resurrection, his, allows for the reward of life in the new system for those alive at Armageddon through ransom and resurrection. Remembering that resurrection means to stand before God and receive your reward which having exercised faith in the Father as our savior and his son who delivered the ransom price we are not judged, thus receiving life. They stand before God and receive their reward without seeing death.

    This brings up the point that Revelation 20:11-15, “… the sea gave up those dead in it”, must be referring to the general population alive at the end of this Judgment Day(the last judgment day), specifically all those of the completed sea of humanity: those misled by Satan at the end of the thousand years after his release, and those already given up to Jesus’ keeping (left hand) for the coming destruction. Obviously it could not have any connection to the ocean.

    The sons of Israel have become like the stars having a thousand years of peace and lack of death. But Satan is released to misled the entire inhabited earth. Those of this sea of humanity that are misled will fall under judgment and cast into the lake of fire. The righteous who received an out-resurrection and a reward of life due to undeserved kindness, receive existence; they will be regenerated by their life force being placed into a new body and the thoughts they generated in Yahweh’s memory put into the new body’s mind. They have exercised their faith in Jesus, with the end result being a resurrection that is favorable (resurrection out of the grave). It is only by their life force/identity being preserved alive in the grave that the Bible says that Jesus would not lose anything he had gained, and the question could be entertained logically because of its multi-generational answer. The return to consciousness at Armageddon allows the righteous ones, the “sons of Israel” and offspring of Abraham who have already crossed over from death to life as Jesus did on earth, to receive the fulfillment of their hope of life on earth during the thousand years when all death is finally done away with. It also allows for the 144000 to respond to the call to meet Jesus in the air, to rule as co-kings over the earth.

    (John 6:39-40) 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day. . .

    • Chris J

      If you aren’t a JW why do you quote in length their books.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Traveler we just discussed in great detail your points one and two at our Wednesday night study. It is better to state a few points then wait for a person to respond to those points then proceed to a few more points.
      Right now it is like a book. Or another way is to put your long points so that we can link out to them instead of having it written out here. Some will take time to read all of it but most will just do the first few points when written out on the site. If you link out, they can read it then come back to comment. Just trying to let you know how to effectively blog. Take Care and say hello to your wife.

    • Henry H.(bible student)

      I’ve read quite a bit of what you have written. It’s quite a lot. Perhaps briefer comments will help get your point across. Remember Proverbs 10:19 “In the abundance of words their does not fail to be transgression but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly”(Prov. 10:19 NWT)

      • traveler

        Hi, if you believe this applies to the few pages we’ve posted I guess it’s hard to know how to respond. I’m sure given this limit Paul would not have been heard from. I guess it always seems long when someone may not want to make the trip. You think that might be?
        As a device to help those people a few pages might be quite effective. Like we’ve said if it doesn’t interest, don’t read it. I assure you that the small parts we have posted would be considered brief if compared with the whole. How do people keep track of a life long study without notes and recorded trains of thought? We can’t imagine. If you ask for someone’s thoughts and the answer is five lines or a couple of paragraphs, do you expect that person has really given any thought to the subject before answering? Or did they just write the first thing that popped into their head before thinking. If Blogs of this sort are meant to help us learn then the questions posed should be given thought, the answers well thought out, even from beginners. A developed ability to think in deliberate steps to arrive at a rational conclusion is not something you are born with, it is something you must learn. This is why Jesus taught a “way” of reason so you and I can use it to cover distance “up” the path. Get a sense of It, meditate on it, then when your meditation has gathered enough information, ponder to arrive at a conclusion. Then take that stand as your answer. So most likely the more mature the search the more information that has to be related to cover the distance to share and support an answer. For example take Jesus’ pursuit. While he left the writing to others he carefully spoke so that not only did you have to hear the words to understand, you had to read between the lines. So once you’ve read the Bible and read between it’s lines, you have to look behind the words at the conceptual picture, the Language the words are directing your mind towards, . So I guess we just disagree on the use of terms such as “few” and “short”. We do appreciate your sincere advice though brother.

        • Anon JC

          You are a trip. It’s too long. We’ve been saying that. If many people say that then there is a common denominator. We’ve been saying that. We don’t need a dissertation for every response. Jesus always adapted to his listeners. You don’t. You do what we say is not effective then blame us for not wanting to read it. If a teacher taught a student in the way they didn’t learn and then said it not me it’s you then you’ve no insight. Long winded he was never. You do realize many of these people are older and don’t mentally have that ability to read for long periods of time. You basically have that nasty attitude of self-righteousness and basically say “oh well it’s not me it’s you”. You turn people off to listening to you. You still have that JW mentality of “well I don’t care how you feel. It’s not me it’s you”.

          Proverbs 17:27a
          A truly wise person uses few words;

          Henry is older and may not have the patience for reading a whole book of answers. You assume he doesn’t “want to make the trip”. Some of your answers are longer than the WT. He doesn’t need that from you and I don’t appreciate you attacking our brothers like that.

          So you need to check yourself.

          • traveler

            Hi again Anon, we’ve missed your patient and quiet style. We don’t remember directing any statement directly towards anyone except Jacqueline. We do appreciate your efforts to teach us. We might point out that your attempts depend on us believing your adamant position is right. I think this would explain your lack of progress with us. An impasse is where we seem to be. I thought we’d resolved our different positions by you saying you would no longer read our posts. We wish you peace, by the way we are older.

            • Anon JC

              Haha you’re trying to insult me. Haha. Nice attempt though. And lack of progress?. . Spiritual progress is all I care about. Not what you deem as progress by clicking and pasting arguments from the WTS rather than thinking for yourself it’s ok that you can’t. You’ll get it in the millennium with the rest of the restored Israel guiding you.

        • Anon JC

          As for on of your comments above I did a word count. You had

          Words: 21,804
          Characters: 121,871

          • traveler

            We’ll assume that is a show of appreciation on our effort to share. Thank you brother

            • Anon JC

              Yes. We all appreciate a good Watchtower click and paste rather than thinking for yourself. See you haven’t broken totally free. Keep trying.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Traveler, thanks for the Civility in your replies. You have never offended me.

            • Anon JC

              Either way I won’t be back on here. Have a great night

              • traveler

                Hello Anon, I would hate to see you leave brother. We are truly not trying to insult you. When you go to the library do you spend time giving counsel to the librarian that they have no need of the big books, or do you simply go to the shelves and pick out the ones that interest you to the degree that you are willing to read? If one other brother or sister has interest in reading a post by us, long or short, why take this personally. We can disprove almost every foundation conceptual idea that the general population of Jehovah’s witnesses hold as true, and back it up with their own organization’s writing to a degree that has never been challenged by the organization. This does not stop us from embracing those ideas and writings that state clearly, truth. We stated over and over, several times, we belong to no denomination outside of Jesus’ congregation. Yet you seem to be trying to say somehow we are misled. We expect that the brothers and sisters, wherever we meet them, have a position, a stand based on the truth that they hold. However this does not make us expect that it is exactly part or the whole of what we hold. Many will be misled, the Bible tells us that. Misled infers to their death, since only one path leads to life. We don’t want to go down a path leading nowhere anymore than it is obvious you do. So if we can help each other, great, but if not, how sad. we would like to do better in our relationship with you. If you’ll note we used you as a good example of maturity in our recent post. If we indeed have then turned to insulting you it seems you might make the point yet that we don’t know what we are talking about. Again we wish you only peace.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Traveler if you want to contact AnonCJ. Post your email address please
                  Also I think Brandon gave you his and he does read your comments long or short.
                  This website is not about personal issues between individuals commenting, so we will start collapsing these comments. Thank you.

              • traveler

                Hello Anon, I would hate to see you leave brother. We are truly not trying to insult you. When you go to the library do you spend time giving counsel to the librarian that they have no need of the big books, or do you simply go to the shelves and pick out the ones that interest you to the degree that you are willing to read? If one other brother or sister has interest in reading a post by us, long or short, why take this personally. We can disprove almost every foundation conceptual idea that the general population of Jehovah’s witnesses hold as true, and back it up with their own organization’s writing to a degree that has never been challenged by the organization. This does not stop us from embracing those ideas and writings that state clearly, truth. We stated over and over several times, we belong to no denomination outside of Jesus’ congregation. Yet you seem to be trying to say somehow we are misled. We expect that the brothers and sisters, wherever we meet them, have a position, a stand based on the truth that they hold. However this does not make us expect that it is exactly part or the whole of what we hold. Many will be misled, the Bible tells us that. Misled infers to their death, since only one path leads to life. We don’t want to go down a path leading nowhere anymore than it is obvious you do. So if we can help each other, great, but if not, how sad. we would like to do better in our relationship with you. If you’ll note we used you as a good example of maturity in our recent posts. If we indeed then turned to insulting you it seems you might make the point yet that we don’t know what we are talking about. Again we wish you only peace.

        • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

          Hi traveler’
          Did you get my e-mail. Would enjoy lengthy discussion myself. If you didnt let me know I’ll get it to you again.
          Lee

          • traveler

            Just checked mail Brandon. We did not get a mail from you. I see that auto fill used a mistype from the past. So this is the email address that should work for you walkingtre1234@yahoo.com looking forward to hearing from you brother.

          • traveler

            Hi again Brandon. We wrote you a reply and posted it this morning and it showed up for a while but now it is gone not sure what happened.We posted one to Anon to try to get him to stay but it also disappeared.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              traveler, I thought we agreed your post to Brandon was going directly to his email as a private conversation. I did copy and send to him and I talked to him to make sure he had your proper email. So please check your email to see his reply to you maybe.
              AnonCJ concluded his conversation I thought. Your comment when reviewed by more than me seemed to be directed at a person. This site is not a playground for individuals vying for which one can be the loudest. You posted your email, AnonCJ may get in touch with you if he wishes, he sees it as he is also “interested one”.
              You are very intelligent and can open a website and invite persons over. Just post where you have it stored and any wishing too can go over and be taught by you.
              You want to inundate this site to take it in your direction with a veiled attempt that you are not controlled by the governiong body.
              We have been there done that. We are serious about helping those wanting to come out of the watchtower society and need help to steady themselves. This site is not for what you have to say about your teachings and telling people how to work the watchtower CD and follow it’s dictates. So please just stop it. Tell your governing body it isn’t working and we will wait for their next patsy.
              I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t have time to play your little game. I would like to suggest you stop blitzing this site. Nothing just disappears, I took it down because you don’t know how to or refuses to follow some sort of decorum. Post all of that on JW.org, that is your target market.
              Are you afraid to blitz their website? That is your market. The internet is so vast, why are you blitzing this little site? Don’t be afraid to go out there and tackle the world wide web. Thank you for respecting other people’s sites. We are not trying to take you or anyone away from your beliefs. Thank you, Jacqueline

              • traveler

                Sorry you took the posts that way. We have no idea what you’re talking about “our ruling body” or “blitz”. We’ve confined our post primarily to anointed talk. A heading for just that reason according to the site statement. Since we seem to be the only anointed to come forward, we’d think that the process of getting to know us would as any relationship take more telling to start and less as it develops, which if you notice is happening. If indeed you want to help people leave the JW’s it seems the information we’ve given is the best way to do that. That’s not our point however. We’re sorry you also thought we were in some sort of shouting match with Anon. We still haven’t seen a direction on this site but we appreciate it is your site. We’ll leave you with what peace you have. Jacqueline if you knew the JW doctrine better than most doesn’t it surprise you that you didn’t find most of what we’ve posted. Peer deeply into the Bible, just having one won’t get you where you want to go. Remember Jesus and all who follow him are trying to take you and anyone else they can away from their beliefs. The one crying “Lord, Lord” had a Bible too. Don’t worry people like to stay comfortable at a level that lays the least moral obligation on them and endless study without stands serves that purpose for the majority.They will keep you writing endlessly. Yep too much, too hard, too deep, or too loud. We’ve heard it before and we’ve been asked to leave before. We wish you well. We also respect your right to pick a direction, but only one leads to God and life. Be careful if you’re part of the majority or involved with a large group, the Bible is quite clear you’ve made the wrong choice. We’re writing this with the knowledge that it won’t be posted. Thanks for forwarding the last post though. While we don’t see how you got the ideas you’ve just expressed, it was wise to seek counsel and we appreciate you weighing things before asking us to leave.

                • greg (Bible Student)

                  traveler,

                  You wrote:

                  “Since we seem to be the only anointed to come forward, we’d think that the process of getting to know us would as any relationship take more telling to start and less as it develops, which if you notice is happening.”

                  I respond:

                  Most of the annointed ones who I know that post comments here do not announce their arrival and comings and goings with marching bands and parades and great trumpeting fanfare. In other words, they do not “Toot their own horns” as you have just done. Most of the annointed who post here choose to let Jesus Christ shine as most prominent while they remain contented to wash the feet of those who come to supper at The Lord’s table.

                  Most of the broken-spirited ones who land here have quite had their fill of a Governing Body and Bodies of Elders constantly telling them all kinds of things, and inundating their minds with the non-stop force-feeding of information. These fragile sheep need time and space to sort out their own thoughts, and to heal from all the conflicting ideas of others. These fragile sheep need to get clear in their own time and at their own pace what is important to THEMSELVES to consider, what’s worth learning, and what’s worth believing. God gave each and every one of us an INTERNAL focus of evaluation, and to steam-roll someone’s internal focus of evaluation by imposing upon them OUR focus of evaluation (which is external to them) would be to repeat what Satan did to Eve and what the Governing Body does to persons. It would neither be loving nor considerate nor compassionate to them to insert one’s self as the next voice of authority in their lives.

                  Sr. Jacqueline, I request that you please exercise your discretion and promptly delete (or edit) my reply if you consider it wiser to do so.

                  -greg

                  • traveler

                    Greg, we believe you as many others on this site have missed which horn we are blowing. If in fact a simple, short answer will help, here it is. In simple words, you all are anointed.
                    This is one of the first statements we made.

                    (1 John 2:20) 20 And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. . .

                    We’ve tried to give you the witness side and show why it is wrong in large part. Then we express how it all fits together, in our opinion. We also noted that there are many hurting out there after their time with the organization. However, no train of thought connected with the Bible is wrong in its entirety, yours, ours or theirs. Yes, the witnesses have abuse among them. The Catholics have many more abuses among them and so on with man. If we wish to help the weak, the truth and its pursuit is the only “way”. Unlike most we believe many were not helpless victims, but pursuers themselves. Like us they just got fed up with the lack of progress towards real pursuit of truth within the organization. These brothers and sisters are still brothers and sisters. If they have, as you’ve pointed out, become so weak, helping to take the truth that they surely found related to the Bible, then helping them to stand again is the Bible prescribed approach. What we seek is common connection of the “truths” we all hold. Then with the help of the spirit that is poured out at the request of Jesus to give us the increased mental capacity to do so, we set about helping each other.

                    All here have our love in every word we’ve posted.

                    Don’t worry, just passing through. the travelers.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      True traveler, the Catholic priest are just like the governing body. They accept and condone rape and sodomy of young girls and boys. For once we agree on something and thank you for bringing that out.
                      Now you say “unlike most we don’t believe they are helpless victims but pursuers themselves”. So let me tell you what I hear you and your organization saying. That young 5 year old boys were not helpless victims but were asking to be sodomized in fact they were pursuring to sodomize the adult pedophiles themselves. And the young girls that were raped and lost their virginity at 6 yrs old were not helpless but were in fact pursuers of the adult men and women that violently raped them.
                      Now that is the street version of what I see you saying.
                      DID I GET IT RIGHT??? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING????? I will wait on your explanation and please drop the circuit overseer speech. Please speak common English.
                      I waited to comment because I couldn’t believe you said this.
                      BTW: I am not anointed.

                    • Henry H.(bible student)

                      Traveler. I read your comments above and I was PERPLEXED and SHOCKED by a statement you made.I quote you” Unlike most we believe many were not helpless victims, but pursuers themselves.” Are you saying that pedophile victims were asking for it! That they even pursued their abuser! Please respond and explain yourself!

                    • greg (Bible Student)

                      traveler,

                      Do you know that when I hear you say, “Don’t Worry,” I begin to get even more worried?

                      Are you aware that it is precisely BECAUSE of the things you say and the ways you say them in your posts that I am very much worried?

                      Do you find my worries even the slightest bit interesting to you?

                      Is it your desire and intention to have a disturbing and disruptive impact on others who you claim to care so much about?

                      Are you even open to hearing feedback about why and how your expressions are not well-received?

                      Do you even care?

                      Have you lost sight of the audience here?

                      Do you even hear yourself when you speak?

                      Do you have any idea what we hear?

                      Do you not notice that the way in which you express yourself and your ideas and your opinions is very unsettling, painful, distrust-inducing, and even nauseating because of the underlying and condescending tones you take.

                      Do you not hear that almost everything you write sounds as though you were setting yourself upon God’s throne and issuing forth God-Like pronouncements and God-Like judgements on the ABSOLUTE and INARGUABLE nature of things, and that nearly everything you say comes across as nauseatingly reflective of the self-glorifying and magniloquent way the Governing Body continuously speaks?

                      Do I have to point out the many glaring examples of that kind of speaking in your recent post?

                      What is your intention when you constantly re-publish large portions of Watchtower Doctrines here?

                      Do you forget that almost everyone who visits this website has already experienced some sort of trauma and/or pain due to having been involved with the JW organization, and because of that they already have some deeply personal reason for wanting to get far, far away from all Watchtower teachings, representatives, publications, and reminders?

                      Can you, for just a moment, consider the possibility that God created each and every individual of mankind with the ability to learn from their own experiences, and to reflect upon choices, and to grow and develop in wisdom–and all of that without YOU needing to assume responsibility for directing, dictating, legislating, and overseeing that process?

                      Can you not treat persons with dignity and respect, and trust that God’s purposes would be fully and perfectly accomplished–even if you yourself had never been born?

                      Do you imagine that sugar-coating your lofty speech makes it somehow more palatable and less insulting?

                      Do you not understand that persons come to this website to find support in moving AWAY from the Jehovah’s Witnesses group–not because they are trying to learn MORE ABOUT what JW’s believe–but because they are already sufficiently familiar with the Watchtower organization and it’s teachings that they now want to be able to ask questions that are relevant to their own personal situations?

                      Did it ever occur to you that maybe persons who visit here would want to ask questions about subjects and ideas that have meaning and importance to them, and that perhaps they’d like (just for a change) to wonder FOR THEMSELVES what’s worth learning–instead of still being TOLD what’s worth learning?

                      Have you ever looked to check and see if maybe there is a rafter in your own eye that you might need to remove before you set about to blindly fix everyone else?

                      And lastly, are you trying to tell us that the Paedophile problem in the JW organization is a relatively trivial and rare occurrence, and that the problem within the JW organization is nowhere near as bad as the problem was/is in the Catholic Church and other religious organizations?

                      -greg

                    • traveler

                      We are not any part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you read you will find that the larger part of our posts are written by ourselves and are directed at one thing, showing that the organization is wrong in almost every foundation “present truth”. As far as the Statement, “we believe not all were helpless victims but pursuers of truth themselves,” I believe many “survivors” of abuse remain fixed on terms like “victims”. We certainly were never relating to these sick sexual acts by men or women. It was pointed out that wolves would enter in and make victims of the brothers and sisters “spiritually” by misleading them or chasing them out.

                      Our posts were and are attempts to reason with those on this site. Why our style or manner of writing is of any interest to those who do not wish to read it we do not understand. We see that there are many that have fixed on us as organizational people. This can only be because the trains of thought we posted have not been followed. If you read only far enough to get upset, where is reason in that? If you see the flaw in the reason just state it, we are looking for just such an answer. We assure you that if you talked with us in person you would find we speak pretty much the way we write, and have made no effort to present ourselves in a fancy or intellectual way, just clearly.

                      Apart from the emotion being displayed we believe that in your hearts you are sincere in wanting to help us see it your “way”. We thank you for that effort.

                      (1 Corinthians 13:1-13) 13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all. 4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      No, I don’t want you to see it my way but you sound like what a predator would say to the victims to make them feel bad about talking about what happened. That is never a good idea. I wonder who you are and your purpose for being on this site?
                      Why do you want to reason with persons on this site in particular is it a threat to the organization? I have heard from someone within Bethel that alledge it along with a few others are.
                      So you have been assigned to this site and you must do your job, right? Who do you think you are that we should follow and listen to you?
                      Why don’t you go over to jw dot org and teach them, aren’t they more your target audience?
                      If you have convinced yourself that the witness organization is wrong that should be sufficient. We don’t have to hear about it.
                      This site is for those struggling, it seems you have steadied yourself and need to open and run your own website.
                      Why haven’t you opened your website and gather some students to you to teach? I seriously want to know why. We bounce off subjects here and are not concerned with getting you to think as we do. We listen to posters and they heal, stand on their own two feet but you want to discourage us from listening to every word.
                      You came on here we never went after you. We have victors on this site but they must be able to talk about their problems until they become such.

                      THAT IS WHAT YOU AND YOUR ORGANIZATION DOESN’T WANT! Us to listen. YOU WANT THEM TO SHUT UP SO PEOPLE WON’T SEE THEIR STORY!

                      This quoted statement identifies who you are. We didn’t chase them out they fled “OUT” of your organization for their lives.
                      You said: “It was pointed out that wolves would enter in and make victims of the brothers and sisters “spiritually” by misleading them or chasing them out”

                    • greg (Bible Student)

                      traveler,

                      I want to set a clear tone for my reply: I hope it comes across as warm and sincere, and not hostile, reactive, nor defensive.

                      I very much agree with the scriptural principle you cited regarding how vital it is that love tempers everything we do and say. I would also like to thank you for clarifying your expression regarding “victims” and “pursuers”. I wanted to “hope all things, and believe all things” in that I really wanted to hear the best possible intention behind your words. I feel relieved now. Thank you.

                      I get a sense that you and I are in agreement regarding how labels and words can imprison individuals. The very word “Victim” implies that a person has been on the painful end of some sort of power differential. Many times feelings of profound helplessness linger for a very long time after the initial stimulus is gone. So, yes, many persons do often get “stuck” there.

                      What I find tragic is that often some well-intentioned person comes along and sincerely wants to help, but unwittingly succeeds only in reinforcing the hurting person’s belief that they are helpless, powerless, incapable, and incompetent.

                      Working with traumatized individuals requires so much more than just good intentions. It requires a thoroughly intimate knowledge of trauma, skill, focused awareness, scrupulous diligence, gentle patience, sensitivity, congruence, a willingness to listen with the totality of one’s heart first and foremost while constantly restraining one’s nagging urge to educate, and copious amounts of empathy.

                      A thought that comes to me but which I will not attempt to explain are the words of the poet Rumi:

                      “Out beyond ideas of wrong-doing and right-doing,
                      there is a field. I’ll meet you there.”

                      I think Jesus put it this way: “Stop Judging,” and “Love even your enemies.”

                      Gently and sincerely,
                      -greg

                  • Chris J

                    Traveler is very arrogant and is one that will throw a stone at you then scream victim and how YOU should be loving. I just ignore him. He’s going to believe what he wants and is still a JW. He may not be in the organization but he posts large portions of their literature showing his belief in their doctrine. He will just talk to be talking and won’t listen to anyone else. Just ignore him.

            • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

              Hi traveler. I will be emailing you soon. Been very busy at work and having issues with family sickness. I did receive an email/post from you forwarded 2 me.

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