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Homosexuality in Biblical Perspective

imageAre homosexual desires a choice?  What should be our attitude toward those who are homosexuals?  Does is make a difference if they are promiscuous, have one sexual partner for life or decide to have a platonic relationship (whether or not they desire sex).  Is the Bible clear on this topic?  Can non-practicing homosexuals be accepted in the Congregation?  How about practicing homosexuals?

The speaker, Brother Carl Hagensick will answer these questions by covering eight Bible Scriptures that deal with homosexuality.  We feel the elder did a good job of honestly and compassionately covering this topic.

55 comments to Homosexuality in Biblical Perspective

  • David Aldridge

    As a Bible Student it is very disappointing to see some of these comments from some i have respected for a long time. Satan has entered in to influence many in our classes and this is very sad. However it was predicted in scripture, so guess we must expect it. However, we do not have to be part of it.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Bro. David – I suggest you keep trying to discussing the scriptural principles and morals with these brethren if they are willing to kindly discuss the matter without getting upset.

      • David Aldridge

        Br Peter, I go by what the Bible says. However thank you for your suggestion. Not upset at all! Not willing to compromise on this. The gay agenda started long ago. Yes they had and do have a plan. This started in the 1980’s. Step 1:Talk about gays and gayness as loudly as possible and as often as possible. Step 2:Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers. Step 3:Give protectors a just cause. Step 4: Make gays look good. Step 5:Make victimizers look bad. Step 6:Solicit funds:The buck stops here. I do not have time to give all details on this, but it is a fact! Leviticus 18:22, also 22:13 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Are just a few scriptures that condemn homosexuality.

        • Christopher

          David. The Bible doesn’t forbid being a homosexual. Only the actions. we are born fallen and many are born with these tendencies and they don’t go away.

  • Exile

    About two or three months ago, my sister who (like yours truly)is an inactive Jehovah’s Witness told my of a conversation one of her daughters had with a young man who is Jehovah’s Witness and gay. He told my niece that as a Jehovah’s Witness he could not engage in homosexual practices. My sister then added that he would probably never marry and have children. (Whether those were the young man’s words or my sister’s opinion I don’t know, and at the time it didn’t occur to me to ask.) My sister then paused and said that maybe homosexuality was the result of human imperfection, which surprised me since she has many gay friends. I told her that I believed it was, and I must admit, I felt badly for that JW and the struggle he must be going through. I still think about him and hope he gets the encouragement he needs in the congregation.

    • jacqueline ( Bible student)

      Exile, thank you for your comments. You show great insight and compassion as the speaker was trying to do.
      Maybe others will listen more carefully. Many that have an intense hatred sometimes are struggling themselves with the defect of sin of Adam in this regard and other defects resulting from the fall from perfection of mind . body and spirit. I pray for God’s will of thought in the matter. I will write more of an experience I had also later.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Exile, I had to check some facts of the case I will present. One where it seems a decision was made. Another where someone else made the decision. The third where it is a direct result of imperfection.

      #3: A person became a Jehovah witness that had been sexually active within the homosexual community but had stopped as it wasn’t for this person. The person was actual born that way all mixed up really. (He) had both male/female genitalia and all functioned including a womb and all the working. Hermaphrodites or the newest term disorder of sexual differentiation. He was told to choose a gender and stick with it. He chose a male. I knew him well. He looked facially like a male but his body was very female, but he said he was attracted to women but formally he was more accepted by the homosexual community. He was as much a female as he was a male. reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hxwjUG3_I, Reference: Intersexed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9a1rXOpIuc

      #2: A person came into my office dressed male but was absolutely beautiful as in female. The hairline was female, skin softness etc. We talked and during the session I learned his mother and father made the decision they wanted a boy so they had the female organs both inside and outside removed. It is obvious they made a big mistake. He/she and I had many discussions of what life was like. He was just so happy to know that God understood it was not his fault, he liked men because in fact they proved he was a girl. The brain and all the hormones was female. He is call homosexual by onlookers. Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30wxuQny4u0

      #1:A sister divorced her adulterous witness husband. They had a girl, I often kept the child and in the salon the mother was cautioned to stop talking about the father in front of the child. She told us she went so far as to sit this child down along with another little daughter and drilled in them to not trust men and hate them. We all felt this was abuse. One daughter at 12 was very promiscuous. The older daughter like brothers but talked of how they dated every sister pretending they were going to marry them. She became very bitter and her dress slipped into masculinity. (I was with her five days a week). A Lesbian sister with a similar background of rejection by father came back to the kingdom hall after 15 years and convinced this young pioneer and other pioneer sisters that since there were no males within the organization they should try females. Quite a few did including this sister. After speaking to her about her public conduct reported to me by management and some doctors,(kissing in the car while I was on tour from my office) she told me it was her choice and that was that. She married a blind brother 3 times her age (called a beard). It seems she continues her love affair with the female unknown to the husband. Hatred, mistreatment by males and being taught from infancy to not let a male touch her caused her to choose. She is who the Bible says will not be accepted as a member of the body, she defiantly practices homosexuality because of hatred for men. Her elder father rejected her mostly after he remarried and moved away. She feels justified in her homosexual and adulterous relationship.
      I checked all my facts to make sure I had them correct. So when we condemn every person homosexual or looks like it shows ignorance of the subject of sexuality.
      A well known Doctor on TV now is also a sexologist and I was a part of that medical team and have checked some facts.
      I hope this helps people to think before they condemn. I personally leave it to God. The fornicating men and women that are just having a debauched good time is not who I am talking about here and they will tell you they don’t want to marry but want multiple partners with their own sex. They say the government wants marriage to control the spread of diseases such as AIDS etc. I spoke with quite a few persons to learn about this plus it is common knowledge. This kind of fornication is I feel condemned in the scriptures
      Just presenting some real life cases, not judging or suggesting anything but facts that might help a Christian see it from another perspective. Thank you for waiting for my reply. Jacqueline
      PS: If one runs for the upward call of Christ there will have to be a denying of himself of many inherited wrong tendencies, lies, stealing, fornicators and adulterers. All of the many problems will have their day in the 1,000 years of restitution of all things.

  • David Aldridge

    The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality! We must never soften our view on this. The Bible says the Jehovah does not change. Why are some who claim to be christian changing on this?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      David – Under the Law Covenanant, a Jew was not guity of death for thinking thoughts of murder or adultery, but rather for acting on those thoughts. Even so, a person is not guilty for a homosexual orientation, but rather for sexually acting on those feelings.

      Although we see the act of homosexuality as sin, we should not single it out to the exclusion of other sins.

      1 Cor 6:9-10 (NASV) “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

      • David Aldridge

        We were talking about homosexuality right? Nothing in my post says anything about other sins not being bad. Why do assume I meant that?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          David – Thanks for clarifyifng. I said “we,” not “you.” I was making a general statement to all.

          • David Aldridge

            So what you are saying is, if someone CLAIMS they have not acted on their desires, its ok to say my sexual orientation is to be a homosexual? Really???? So they would be accepted as a brother or a sister??

            • Peter K. (admin)

              David – Are you saying that if a brother is fighting and resisting his homosexual orientation every day, that we should reject him as a brother? I assume that in many cases this is a physiological or biological defect due to the Adamic fall, just as if someone were born blind. Or it was an orientation developed in very early childhood. It wasn’t a choice to be born with a homosexual orientation or to develop the orientation in earmy childhood, lon before an age of accountability.

              So if a Christian is fighting a homosexual orientation or resisting adulterous thoughts, should we condemn them for fighting against their fleshly desires?

              • David Aldridge

                If someone is truly struggling with this and they have stopped, he or she should be helped. I do not believe that someone being gay, they are born that way. It is a CHOICE! I have seen many people change over the years. All the ones i knew said they had chose to be gay. We must be careful that we do not compromise on this. It seems worldly opinions are creeping into the congregations and that scares me, as it could be cause for stumbling others. What if a pedophile claim to be born that way? Or someone who commits sex acts with animals? Where does this stop?

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  David – Of course having sex with children is not only a sin, but a crime. Having sex with animals is sick.

                  I am not familiar enough yet with the scientific evidence to draw a definite conclusion on how and when homosexuality comes about. I do know that both sides debate refer to this evidence. I need to investigate further in this area.

                  One thing that is clear is that many gay people develop this orientation in early childhood or as far back as they can remember. For these, it was clearly never a choice. Can they make a decision to change and become heterosexual? I do not have enough information to answer that question. I have heard of those who have tried to change that orientation, but were not able to.

                  The Bible is clear that we must fight to overcome fleshly sinful thoughts and desires.

                  Mark 7:20-22
                  And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

                  Colossians 3:5-10 ESV
                  Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices …

                  Colossians 3:5 ESV /
                  Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

                  2 Corinthians 10:5 ESV
                  We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

                  So it is clear from scriptures the importance of resisting our human sinful desires and controling our thoughts to bring them in harmony with God’s righteous principles. However, we should not be rude or unkind to people in the world who have sex outside of marriage to the opposite sex.

                  1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (NASB) “I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person…”

                  Now if a child is raped over a period of months or years and as a result when an adult has pedephile desires himself, did he make a choice?

                  If a person is born with both male and female organs and has an attraction to both sexes, did he make a choice?

                  What did Jesus mean when he said:

                  Matt 19:12 (NASV) “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb…”?

                  To not have sexual desire for a woman goes against God’s command to multiply and fill the earth. Was it a choice for this eunuch to be born this way?

                  1 Cor 4:6 (NASV) “Don’t go beyond what is written.”

                  We want to be obedient to scripture, but let’s not add strict rules beyond what is written. Some Gay activists accuse Christians of being begots. Let’s not give them the wrong impression and unecessarily add fuel to the fire.

                  Thanks for sharing your point of view.

                  • David Aldridge

                    I agree what you say. However, from what I have seen many in the Bible Students are starting to compromise about this subject. The Bible is very clear about practicing sin and homosexuality IS included in the list. It is strange to me many do not make excuses for those that commit adultery, fornication and other sins, but seem to want to make some genetic excuse for being gay! 1 Corinthians 15:33 says,”Do not be mislead.Bad association spoil useful habits.” From what I have seen, not only Bible Students, but other religions have allowed the association of the media, liberals, others inside and out of the congregation cause them to compromise. I am not saying we should be rude and mistreat people, but we should not become part of their sin by making excuses for their sin! Acts 20:28-29 brings out what Paul was worried about. This is taking place now to a certain degree. I am a consecrated Bible Student, and have been part of the movement since 2001. However I am starting to reconsider due to this latest change. It is a cause for stumbling.

                  • David Aldridge

                    Our Lord proceeds to note three classes of men to whom it is given to abstain from marriage. There are some eunuchs, which were so born. The first class consists of those who are physically unable to contract matrimony, or, having the power, lack the inclination. They are compulsorily continent, and are not voluntary abstainers. Neither is the second class: those which were made eunuchs of men. Such were common enough in the harems and courts of Orientals. The cruel and infamous treatment which such persons underwent was practised against their will, and consequently their continence had no sort of merit. The third is the only class which of choice and for high reasons lived a celibate life: which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. This is not to be understood of excision; for this would be a contravention of the order of nature and the good work of creation. Origen, who took the passage literally, and with his own hands mutilated himself, was justly condemned by the verdict of the Church. The verb is to be understood in a metaphorical sense of the mortification of the natural desires and impulses at the cost of much pain and trouble, the spirit conquering the flesh by the special grace of God. The motive of such self-denial is high and pure. It is practised “for the kingdom of heaven’s sake,” that is, to be free from distraction and the cares and dangers involved in a married life. St. Paul carries forward the Lord’s teaching when he writes (1 Corinthians 7:32, 33), “He that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but he that is married is careful for the things of the world, how he may please his wife” (comp. Isaiah 56:3, 4). The celibate life, deliberately embraced for religion’s sake, is here approved by Christ, not to the disparagement of matrimony, but as a counsel which some are enabled to follow to their soul’s great benefit. It may be added that the counsel applies also to married persons who sacrifice conjugal endearments for spiritual reasons – “have wives as though they had none” (1 Corinthians 7:29). Let him receive it. This is not an injunction, but a permission; it is no universal rule, prescribed to all or to the many; it is a special grace allowed to the few, and by few attained. “Each man,” says St. Paul, “hath his own gift from God, one after this manner, and another after that” (1 Corinthians 7:7, 26). Some think the Essenes are here referred to; but it is not likely that our Lord would endorse the practices of a sect which in some of its tenets was by no means commendable. Rather he is laying down a limitation that, while self-sacrifice and self-dedication to God are acceptable and fraught with peculiar blessings, none should attempt to win heaven in this way, unless they are specially prepared for such a life by the grace of God mastering the human will and controlling every earthly desire. The pre-eminent value set on celibacy by the early Church was learned from this and similar passages; but Christ institutes no comparison between the single and married states; and it would have been wiser to imitate his reserve in estimating the spiritual merits of the two conditions.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Bro. David, Thanks for sharing your study with us. Let me focus on just the one point most applicable to our discussion. You said, “There are some eunuchs, which were so born. The first class consists of those who are physically unable to contract matrimony, or, having the power, lack the inclination. They are compulsorily continent, and are not voluntary abstainers.”

                      In this first case of those born eunuchs, it seems there is a physical or biological defect which prevents them from fulfilling God’s instructions to be fruitful and fill the earth. Another biological defect which I mentioned previously is the case where a person is born with both male and female organs. In either case, the normal desire or the normal ability to marry the opposite sex and procreate is not there. So I would think that it is then possible that in at least some cases, a biological defect could be a cause of a homosexual orientation. I am not smart enough or knowledgeable enough to have the science figured out. However, if a brother tells me he has a homosexual orientation, but is keeping his mind and actions pure, that he is resisting, just as a heterosexual brother resists fantasizing about the opposite sex, then I see no reason not to continue to love and respect the brother as my brother in Christ.

                      Now on the other hand, if someone is NOT a brother in Christ and not attending the congregation meeting and is in a homosexual relationship, then I have no problem dealing with him kindly and respectfully like I would anyone else in the world not practicing Biblical moral standards.

                      I don’t know if we are in agreement or can come to a full agreement, however I respect your liberty in Christ and conscience to draw your most honest conclusions from scripture.

                      Thanks dear Brother for sharing.

                  • David Aldridge

                    I see you prevented me from replying on your last comment. I will conclude the matter this way. Homosexuality IS a sin. Please read my comment about their agenda. If you do not understand that this is a movement to get homosexuality accepted into mainstream, then I am sorry we even had this discussion. The day will come and very soon, some of you will be asked to perform a gay wedding. as it will be law. What will you do? What will you do? May Jehovah have mercy on all of us in this wicked system. I will be glad to see it all come to its end, as I am sick of it and all its immoral ways!

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Br. David,

                      Word Press is set up to automatically block certain words including about sex. So I have to manually approve these comments when I am available. This is why your comments are delayed in appearing.

                      For decades, I have been aware of the anti judeo Christian morality activism in politics, government, entertainment, education, etc.

                      You will not see Bible Student elders disobeying God and conducting gay marriages.

                      We need not worry about the decline of morality as this is all part of the destruction of Satan’s kingdom in preparation for setting up Jehovah’s kingdom.

                      2 Timothy 3, “3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

                • David Aldridge

                  Also, I DO NOT go beyond the things written! Please do not imply that. That is a false accusation. It sounds like a political liberal.

          • David Aldridge

            I think Jesus words at Matthew 5:28 shows a good principle- “But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.” So under this christian principle one is sinning lusting after the opposite sex. Could not the same be said of those of the same sex?

      • David Aldridge

        Also someone CLAIMING their sexual orientation is homosexual, is doing much more than just THINKING bad things as mentioned in your comments. When you make a claim to something you are publicly saying it and others know.

      • David Aldridge

        These questions of “same-sex marriages” in our day, is not surprising. In Luke 17:26-29, Jesus speaks of Noah and Lot, and said, “as it was in their day, so it shall be when he returned. Let us look at some scriptural references, for some answers. To begin with, when God created Adam, the first human being, he was a full grown perfect man with the power of pro-creation; but, he was the only human being on the earth. Years later, God created a help mate for him, – — He did not create another male to be his mate; no, God created a female, her name was Eve, a full grown perfect Woman , capable of bearing children. Last Sunday was Mother’s day, and, Webster says, that a woman is a female partner who gives birth. In Gen 1:28, our first parents were told by God, to multiply and replenish the earth. This cannot be done in a homosexual marriage.
        We read in Heb 13:4, that marriage is a Holy act, honourable and sanctioned by God. But, the Apostle Paul tells us in the 5th Chapter of Eph., that it must be with a woman and a man. We also read in Lev 18:22, that sexual encounters ( this also includes marriages) between two men is an abomination to God. The Living Bible translates Lev 18:22, in our common day language, it says, “Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.” Such perverted union is unnatural –and unhealthy. Medical researchers have known for years, that the “homosexual lifestyle” is a very disease-ridden lifestyle. In the 19th chapter of Gen. we have the account of Sodom and Gomorrah. Two angels came to Sodom in the evening, to tell Lot that because of the great immoral sin that was practiced in Sodom & Gomorrah, they were sent by God to destroy the cities completely. Lot insisted that they spend the night in his house. After supper, all the men of the city surrounded the house, and shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them. Lot went outside and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” Finally, the 2 Angels pulled Lot into the house, and struck the men who were at the door of the house, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The Apostle Peter tells us in 2 Peter 2:5, “ He, (God) did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6. He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7. And, He rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men.”
        Based on the scriptural references that we just looked at, here are my thoughts on these Questions:
        a. Because this is now becoming a much more openly discussed and outward part of people’s lives, what should our attitude be?
        God said that a “homosexual lifestyle” is an abomination to Him. Satan deceived Mother Eve, by telling er that she would not die if she ate the fruit of that forbidden tree, likewise, Satan is deceiving mankind by telling them that homosexual marriages are ok. We should do as God does, He hates the sin, but not the sinner. We read in Psa 97:10, “Ye that love the Lord, hate evil.” However, remember, we hate the sin and not the sinner.

        b. If invited to a same-sex marriage, does attendance imply our approval?
        Yes; We attend a marriage to rejoice with the couple, as a witness before God. We read in Eph 5:6-8,( NIV ) “Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the terrible wrath of God is upon all those who do them. 7. Don’t even associate with such people. 8. For though once your heart was full of darkness, now it is full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it! 9. Because of this light within you, you should do only what is good and right and true.”
        c. Is it appropriate to attend to show our love for the individual?
        I do not think so.
        We can show our love for an individual, by telling them in a very, very tactful way, that, “ I would love to come to your wedding, if it were as God said that it should be, which is, between a woman and a man. I have learned that the Bible tells us, a Homosexual marriage is wrong, in fact, it is an abomination to God. (Lev 18:22.) I love you, but do not approve of your marriage, because God does not approve of it.

        d. How do we balance love for all with being a witness of God’s standards ?

        God’s standard is, that He loves the sinner, but not the sin.
        Jesus is our best example ; we read in Matt 9:11,(NIV) “When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’? 12. On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” And then we read in 1 John 4:9, “This is how God showed His love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.”

        e. What Scriptual guidance is there for such situations ?
        We read in Eph 5:6-8, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:”
        1 Tim 4:12-13, “Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.”

        This is a copy of questions that were asked in our class. The brothers did a great job answering them. Thought you migh tlike to look it over. God bless.

  • alfredots

    its definitely a choice, and if its what they desire they are getting there reward in full. How they can prefer gay sex over life everlasting? dont ask me.

  • Brother

    As an ExJW and now a Bible Student, I disagree with others being about to tell others what they can do with their lives. Jehovah gave each of his creatures free will. So when we are at the voting polls and we vote against gay marriage then we are in essence taking away the greatest gift that Jehovah gave us: free will. If many do not believe it is a true marriage then why do they care what what do? I think we should worry about ourselves and making our calling and election sure and not worrying about whats going on in the world.

    • Brother

      Sorry forgot to mention I am gay as well.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Brother – Thanks for sharing. Some would argue that those voting at the polls are expressing their free will whichever way they vote. If you vote for or against abortion are you voting for the rights of the mother or the unborn child? Do you feel the Bible encourages same sex marriage? However, should the New Creature be voting at the polls? I don’t think we have any examples in the New Testament of Christians getting involved in worldly politics. Satan is “the god of this world” and the world can only be made right in God’s earthly kingdom under his rule. When Jesus said to Pilot, “if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,” it was evident that Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world and its politics. These are just my thoughts. I am glad you had the courage to express your thoughts. Thanks.

      • Brother

        I agree. However, we can’t make decisions for anyone.

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Brother – Thanks. Yes we all have free choice. Any decision we make can result in a blessing / benefit or natural consequence. It is up to each person to take responsibility to decide for themselves. The best and safest results come when trusting and following God’s Word.

  • Adrian

    While I don’t agree with all of the sentiments or views expressed in this talk, it was well presented, fair and compassionate so good job by the speaker. As a gay Christian I can confirm that sexual orientation is not a choice – wether gay or straight and the most upto date scientific research validates this view. I believe what God is calling us to is understanding, compassion and that ultimately we are all only saved by grace and not about who or what we are; -)

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Adrian – Perhaps related to your thoughts, I will share with you that I do not feel qualified or knowledgeable enough to know when or how one becomes gay. One website argues that “there is no scientific or DNA test to tell us if a person is homosexual, bisexual or even heterosexual for that matter.” Various website quote various studies to argue that gay people are born gay (or not), or that it develops in childhood, possibly from environmental or social influences or from sexual abuse. In these examples, it is not like a child just decides that they want to be gay. As best as I can tell, you are correct, that it is not a choice to have a homosexual orientation.

      This begs the question then, is God unjust to condemn gay and lesbian sexual behavior in the Bible? Well, either we accept God’s Word as final and the Bible as inspired or we don’t. In our society anyone can disagree with God and the Bible. Christians should not worry about what those outside the Congregation think and do. Nor should we be discourteous, unkind or unfair to people in the world with a different moral compass. Our concern would be if someone in the congregation was practicing immoral behavior. For example, if someone stole money from their employer, they would need to repent from that behavior in order to be welcome and accepted as a fellow brother in the congregation. Same with fornication or gay sexual activity.

      However we slice and dice this discussion, it seems evident that God only recognizes moral sexual behavior in the bonds of marriage between a man and women. Hence if a man lusts after another man’s wife and does not act on it, he then has not committed adultery, except perhaps in his mind (which we cannot judge). By the same token, if a gay man has a sexual attraction to another man, but does not act on it, he has not then committed a sexual act that would break his fellowship with the congregation. I think the scriptures encourage the New Creation (Anointed) to control their thoughts.

      2 Corinthians 10:5 (NKJV) “bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (also Matt 5:28)

      Hence a heterosexual Christian should control their sexual impulses and not have sex out of wedlock. Also a homosexual Christian should as well control their sexual impulses.

      Easier said than done. However if one is not strong enough to restrain their impulses, we suggest that Romans 1 teaches that their are natural consequences that result in mankind suffering when they follow their own moral compass rather than the moral compass God sets forth. The New Creature (anointed) should have compassion and empathy for the suffering and struggling of the world around us now, else how will we be mentally prepared to help and bless them in the kingdom? (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:29)

      • Adrian

        Thanks for your candid reply Peter.
        Have you heard of Matthew Vines?
        He has written an excellent book on the topic looking at it from a different perspective?

        Regards Adrian

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Adrian – Thanks. No I have not yet read the book, however anyone is welcome to present his or their Biblical arguments and we can have an honest discussion.

          I came from the point of view that the Bible teaches that sex is a sin when outside of the context of a marriage between a man and a women. Of course there are many different types of sins and none of us have proved to be sinless.

          In March 2012, Matthew Vines delivered a speech in front of a congregation at College Hill United Methodist Church, detailing his controversial belief that “the Bible never directly addresses and certainly does not condemn, loving, committed same-sex relationships”

          I will do some more investigation and as I said anyone is welcome to make a biblical arguments for their point of view. Thanks Adrian for sharing with us.

    • alfredots

      Don’t get me wrong cause I don’t hate. Bur on strait forward about things and to believe what u say you need to ignor most of the bible. The bible is the standard where we learn to be Christian.you can be attracted to the same sex sure but taking the step to put ur peepi in another mans pooper is a choice and ots detestable in his eyes. Is it realy so hard to say no and wait on the lord an the new system were righteousness is to dwell? Everlasting life is the free gift , if you prefer this worlds desires over life that’s choice your reward in full(pleasure) lets not lie to ourselfs the bible is clear.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        alfredots – What is it I have said or the website says that makes you feel we disagree with each other? I think we do agree that the Bible teaches it is a sin to sexually practice homosexuality. Do you hold the same standard for fornication as a sin?

        I was questioning you on “choice.” I think your answer indicates that you made a choice aound puberty when you fully realized that you were sexually attracted to women. However, I would argue that your sexual attraction to women was not a choice that you made, but rather a choice that Jehovah made from the beginning with Adam for the purpose procreation.

        I would suggest that if around puberty or earlier a child finds them self sexually attracted to the same sex, that the reason is either biologically or socially/environmentally caused. In my mind, this would not be a conscious frame of mind that the child chose, but rather a condition of mind that he or she found themselves in. Now whether that individual acts upon their feeling sexually is a choice. Now in all sympathy, if a heterosexual person would find it difficult to refrain from sex for the rest of their lives, we should appreciate the discipline and difficulty for a homosexual who chooses not to act on their feelings.

  • It’s very easy for straight Christians to stand up and pontificate on this topic. Any one whi assumed that homosexuality is a life style choice in this day and age is either seriously delude or blissfully ignorant. As a gay man and a Christian I can assure you along with the most upto date scientific fact that sexuality gay or straight is what we are born with.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Adrian, thank you so much for commenting. In my comment to Chris, I tried to present some cases that shows that the fall of Adam caused all types of differences. We had an entire family in our Kingdom hall that had no wombs, no male hormones but definitely male and my friend an aunt no sexuality at all. She said she never had a sexual thought in her 84 years. The entire family was very different most married with and without the ability to have children.
      There are some individuals that make a choice and will tell you so and laugh at the marriage agenda. It is too long and complicated to discuss here. But as Christians we know the time of restoring all things will come. Take care Adrian we have had hundreds of hits within the first 5 hrs but you took the time to talk. Thanks.

    • Chris

      Adrian. Thanks for your response. As a Bible Student who is also a Gay male I would have to say I disagree. God did not create us like this. Remember “through one man sin entered the world). God created woman to be with man. Only after the fall was anything out of the ordinary started. There are many people who claim that pedophilia has always been a desire of theirs. Does this make it right? How about a more natural desire such as over eating. The bible condemns overeating even though it is in my genes to have food addiction. Should we thus conclude a God made me this way? No. Once I replaced my desire to be with me with the love of Christ and the promises of Jehovah did I really understand what I was trying to fill in my life. We might have to give up our homosexuality in this life. However remember the promises of the bible “However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” — the things God has prepared for those who love him–“

  • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

    Chris, I agree with what you are saying. I had a Jehovah Witnesses male friend that was just as much male as female all organs of both sexes worked properly within him. He exhibited outward characteristic of a male but the female profile, you could see both in him. (Upon becoming a witness he chose to be considered a male) and chose celibacy. He actually preferred females but chose never to marry.
    PS:
    ( Babies that are born with both male and female sexual organs, or characteristics of both organs, are called hermaphrodites or intersex. A child who is in an intersexual state is classified in one of three categories: 1) true hermaphrodite – an infant born with both ovaries and testicles and has both male and female sex organs. 2) female pseudohermaphrodite – a genetic female with male external sex organs. 3) male pseudohermaphrodite – a genetic male with external sex organs that fail to develop properly, resulting in female or male/female physical characteristics.

    In times past, doctors would perform surgeries without first testing the infant to find out its true sex, and the child would sometimes grow up very obviously a man, with female genitalia. Now, specialists can perform an ultrasound, blood test, chromosome analysis, and even do exploratory surgery to find out the baby’s true sex. The treatment is still controversial, however.)

    Some believe that surgery and/or hormonal therapy should begin within the first 15 months of life, and others believe these things should be put off until the child is old enough to make his or her own decision about it. There are pros and cons for each side. Either way, any family with an intersexual infant should begin counseling, as should the child when he or she is old enough.

    When babies are developing in the womb, they all begin with sex organs that look female. If the baby is male, he begins to produce testosterone, and if the hormone reaches the tissues correctly, the external genitals become a scrotum and penis. Chromosomal or sex hormone abnormalities can produce an infant in an intersexual state. It can also be caused by a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which is a disease that blocks the baby’s metabolism. It is not as uncommon as we might think; about 1 in every 2,000 newborns is born in an intersexual state.

    This bring to mind another client of mine. This female should have been a model but had on obvious male clothing. The hairline, everything was female. But not really, the parents were asked which sex would they like for their child to be when born. They wanted a boy. The doctors removed all female genitalia. They made a huge mistake.

    SO, I ask, how would we know what is going on in these imperfect bodies of ours. People have so many struggles, we can’t judge anybody from what we see.
    PS: I am not referring to fornicators having a good time just as the speaker says in the beginning of his discourse.

    • Jacqueline,

      My heart goes our to anyone, child or adult that has this situation, no fault of their own. No one should judge them, but we should love them and try our best to understand them.

  • Certain people may criticize me for what I am about to say, but Homosexuality is not always just a choice, just like in food each person has a craving for a certain food, but had they never been exposed to that certain food, maybe they would have not craved it. Chemistry and hormones control all humans, and for what ever reason, most people are damaged in a way that their chemistry and/or hormones are not in balance. Pollution, heredity and genes, emotional and/or physical damage, and diet has a play in everyone.
    When Christ walked the earth, the first thing he would do is feed and HEAL persons. In the future, the first thing Christ will do again (during or after the resurrection) is to HEAL persons so they can make proper changes in their life.
    We all know murder is wrong, yet some people have no choice, their mind is so twisted from what ever damage, and they become homicidal maniacs. Christ will HEAL them in the future, as he will HEAL all individuals.
    Let us not judge our brothers and sisters who have no choice, and help those who DO have a choice, to make changes. Love is the Key!

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Larry I wish you had seen my attempt at post just the talk on facebook before Br. Peter formulated this article. I had such vile comments that I had to take the post down and unfriend a brother. If you had posted this logic maybe he could have thought before he spoke so harshly. I was trying to reach a few friends with this message on facebook. Now it is formulated correctly.

  • Chris

    It is not a choice. Many wouldn’t kill themselves trying to overcome it if it was a choice of a simple switch. When Adam and Eve fell all sinful tendencies entered into the world. Some are born with that imperfection just like some are born with natural tendencies to be addicted to alcohol. We must love these brothers and sisters because we can live without alcohol or porn but to have to live without love because it’s not easy to just switch orientation is hard.

    • David Aldridge

      Do you really deep down believe it isn’t a choice??? Can you provide any proof of this?

      • Peter K. (admin)

        David – I know this is not addressed to me, but I will comment. A number of Christians with a homosexual orientation say that they have chosen NOT acting on their feelings in order to be obedient to Christ. They say that they have so far NOT been able to change their orientation. I choose to take them at their word.

        You have commented enough on this topic and in such cases we ask the contributer to stop commenting on the topic. However, if anyone directs a comment or response at you on this topic, you can respond. You can comment on other topics like anyone else. Thanks.

        • David

          I just saw this. Don’t now how I missed it! Seems free speech is being disregarded, saying I have said enough on this subject. Please forgive me if truth hurts. Not my intentions to hurt anyone! However, ti seems we live in a super liberal world and it has slowly wiggle its way into the congregation, as fortold in scripture. Acts 20:28-29,…28″Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29″I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.…

          • Peter K. (admin)

            David,

            Hi. Nice to hear from you.

            I am glad that no one stopped you from saying whatever you wanted to say on this topic. You got the last word. No one else wanted to respond to you. We have moved on. Perhaps there is another topic that you would like to talk about.

            • David

              I only responded to you, due to your hurtful words. That is all I have to say on this matter. I will not speak of it again. May God bless you and everyone else, if they follow his word on morality.

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