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1917 Letter to Bible Students from Brother Russell’s Board of Directors who were Ousted by J. F. Rutherford

RUTHERDLetter  dated July 27, 1917 to the Bible Students from the majority of the Board of Directors appointed by Brother Russell – J. D. Wright, A. I. Ritchie, I. F. Hoskins and R. H. Hirsh

Dear Brethren,

A situation of such seriousness has arisen in the management of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that we, writing to you as a majority of the Board of Directors, have felt it necessary that you should be acquainted with the facts.  The point, in breif, is that an effort is being made to change the scheme of government of the Society as Brother Russell himself devised it and desired it to be perpetuated; and to that end, to declare illegal provisions in the Charter of the Society which Brother Russell himself placed there, and to use this claim of illegality to oust Directors who have held office for many years with the approval of Brother Russell and the Society.

J.D. Wright, who is one of those now writing you became a Director in 1906; I. F. Hoskins became a Director in 1908; A. I. Richie became a Director in 1911, and R. H. Hirsh became a Director on March 29, 1917.  We four are a majority of the seven Directors of the Board.  A. I. Ritchie was Vice President of the Society at the time Brother Russell died; and Brother Russell’s Will appointed R. H. Hirsh and I. F. Hoskins, with three others, “as possible amongst the more suitable from which to fill vacancies in the Editorial Committee” of  The Watch Tower.

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73 comments to 1917 Letter to Bible Students from Brother Russell’s Board of Directors who were Ousted by J. F. Rutherford

  • Chuck Maly

    Lincoln,
    I have to comment since you make so many false statements about what I believe.
    You obviously did not read or maybe understand my posts. And you are obviously not reading the information on this site. Otherwise you would NOT state we are following the JW’s beliefs as you keep doing. I am going to take your statements and respond to each. This is how a debate is held.

    You state:
    “As far as the feelings are concerned; yes feelings are the strongest power exist.”

    Your church may preach this. I disagree. God’s Holy Spirit is the strongest power that exists. The whole “feel good” thing is the need of our human side. Our Spiritual side should rightfully divide the word of truth and accept that we might have been wrong on some things. Praising the Lord for opening our eyes to the truths of Scripture. The Scriptures do no lie and are in perfect harmony with other Scriptures. Picking and choosing certain man made explanations of what they mean is how Satan has infiltrated so many dogmas. I am not only a Bible Student but a Student of Religious Histories and how the current systems came into being. Satan has been working in the world for a long time. As long as you follow your “feelings” and do not honestly STUDY Scriptures, he is satisfied. I do agree that a heart of flesh and not stone is necessary to truly be a good Christian. This is not “feelings” based but based on truth and a Love for God and his plan for mankind.

    You state:
    “So, should I be ashamed of praising Jesus and praying to Jesus by exalting him? I am not ashamed of that and I know Jesus loves it.”

    I agree somewhat. We owe our lives to Him! I also understand you are a trinitarian now. (That is another conversation!) I praise God the Father and thank Jesus for all He has done. He has always been a shining example of doing what the Father wants of us. I pray to our Father for his kindness in the name of Jesus. Jesus is our mediator to the Father. Jesus having been made as man is easier to relate to as a man. He had many trials and pleased the Father with his righteousness.

    You state:
    “You see, Jehovah`s Witnesses has been around for almost 120 years and printed billions of books and magazines, but what happens? Nothing.”

    This is FALSE!!!!!! Jehovah’s Witnesses have been around since 1931 under Rutherford. And were in the making since 1916 upon the death of Russell when Rutherford usurped power and changed things.
    You, being in the JW’s at one time, had fallen for their lies. And I can understand the bitterness they left in your life. Russell DID NOT form the JW’s!!!!!! There is a page on this site explaining this. Did you read it?

    You state: (and I must emphasize my response)
    “And I can understand you believe Jehovah will also kill all other than you because we believe in Jesus and worship and praise him the way we do.”

    FALSE!!!!! I AM NOT A JW! We on this site are for the most part NOT JW’s. We do not hold that belief!!!! We believe ALL will have a resurrection and a chance at eternal life whether on Earth or in Heaven. The JW’s believe they are the great crowd on Earth. We believe the Great Crowd to be Heavenly. We DO NOT believe in an Armageddon that destroys everything!!! You, me, my neighbors, the Muslims…. ALL will have a chance at life in the Millennium time of testing. Our Loving Father has a Plan for ALL of his creation. And it is in line with His Loving Character, not as those on this Earth wrongly decided was His character. Again, PLEASE read more on this site as to what we BELIEVE before making such false claims.

    You state:
    “But you go and tell 1 billion muslims (Islam) what you think about them and what God think about them and then? Do you think they will love you?”

    You obviously do not understand what I believe to have made this statement. I believe they would love me for what I had to say. I have to point you to my answer above. I Love ALL of God’s children. God loves ALL his creation. And ALL will have a chance to see this. The whole concept of a spiteful, hateful Father is an abomination in my eyes. Please don’t make the statements you have been making that are false about me. (That IS a commandment by the way.)

    You state:
    “So, I will tell you what happens when we born again Christians come and tell about Jesus.”

    That tactic is no different than the JW’s. I know that is a strong statement but let me explain. You believe that unless “born again”, as you describe it, you will not be saved. (The whole “born again” movement has hijacked the true meaning of the beautiful concept of being “born again” as stated in Scriptures.) JW’s have the same concept of being one of “us” OR ELSE! I strongly disagree. As one man, Adam, condemned ALL mankind to death. One man, Jesus, died so that ALL men will live. If you read any pages on this site dealing with this concept you would understand what I am saying, whether you agree or not.

    You state:
    “So, you think it is Satan? It is very rare we in the Christian church talk about Satan. We mostly talk about Jesus and it is his name all the time.”

    It is a shame that Satan has so blinded the world as to get them to ignore him or set him aside. When he has his hooks in someone, or a group, he moves on to those he has yet to get. We understand that he is the Great Deceiver and has been active in this “his world” for a long time!

    You state:
    “I understand on you, you study the teachings of Charles Taze Russell? Ok.”

    HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE, I study the Scriptures, hence, Bible Student. Russell is one of many commentators I respect. You make this statement like you loathe him.

    In conclusion, PLEASE quit equating me to a Jehovah’s Witness. If you have a problem with them then please go to their site and let THEM know. We here are trying to give comfort to those that that “organization” has hurt or rejected. I think you would agree that that is the Christian thing to do. Right?

    May the Lord be with you,
    Br. Chuck

    • Lincoln

      Dear Chuck Maly,

      Thank you for your fine comments on my writings here. I really appreciate it.

    • Lincoln

      Dear Chuck Maly,

      Will you give me one more chance? Others, do not get angry with me. Will you be so kind to explain Charles Taze Russell`s teaching here:

      Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

      “It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11.

      Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. “When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
      Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter–the leading apostle– “he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man.” …. Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship….”
      Zion’s Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
      quote end.

      “It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us….Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him.”
      Zion’s Watch Tower 1880 Oct. p.3
      quote end.

      “Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so.

      … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
      quote end.

      ” Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
      “In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles….They worshiped him in three senses of the word:

      (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence.

      (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence.

      (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience.”

      Zion’s Watch Tower 1906 Jan. 1 p.15
      quote end.

      • just stay sweet and good

        The Moffit translation of the Bible translates at John 1:1 “……………AND THE WORD WAS DIVINE” (the Greeks had no upper and lower cases)
        This is consistent with 1 Peter 1:4 “……………..SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE” The groom and the bride are of the same nature. Jesus and the 144,000 they are married.
        In both places the
        greek word for god is seen in the original. Nowhere is there any place where Jehovah’s creation is considered to be “The God” Almighty. The word god is a generic word. In order to differentiate between divine beings and Jehovah God the Greeks always had to preface the word “god” with “The God” to be clear about who they were talking about. Remember, the Greeks had all kinds of gods. 1 Cor. 8:6

        Keep diggin for the pearl my friend!

        • Lincoln

          Dear “just stay sweet and good”,

          Thank you for your comment. Are referring to James Moffatt Bible Translation?

          • just stay sweet and good

            Lincoln..Yes Heres some gret information:James Moffatt and Coptic John 1:1, 18
            Dr. James Moffatt (1870-1944) was a notable scholar of Biblical Greek and translator of the 1934 Bible version which bears his name. I’ve had him on the shelf for some time and recently looked at his translation of John 1:1 and John 1:18.

            What interested me is that Moffatt’s English translation of the Greek text(s) was quite close to what an accurate English translation of the Sahidic Coptic text would say, the Coptic text itself being based upon ancient Greek texts.

            In other words, it appears that Moffatt took a similar message from those Greek texts that the Coptic translators did when they rendered their Greek texts into their own Egyptian Coptic language.

            At John 1:1 Moffat renders:

            The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

            The Sahidic Coptic text, with my 2006 Contemporary Translation:

            Hn teHoueite neFSoop nCi pSaJe auw pSaJe neFSoop nnaHrm pnoute auw neunoute pe pSaJe
            In the beginning the Word existed. The Word existed in the presence of God, and the Word was a divine being.

            At John 1:18 Moffatt renders:

            Nobody has ever seen God, but God has been unfolded by the divine One, the only Son, who lies upon the Father’s breast.

            The Sahidic Coptic text, with my 2006 Contemporary Translation:

            pnoute mpelaau nau eroF eneH. pnoute pShre nouwt petSoop Hn kounF mpeFeiwt petmmau pe ntaFSaJe eroF
            No one has ever seen God at any time. The divine being, the only Son who is in the bosom of his Father, is the one who has revealed him.

            I was translating the Coptic, Moffatt was translating the Greek, but this similarity is amazing. Perhaps it is simply that both Moffatt and the Coptic translators were concerned with grammatical accuracy in these verses or had the same understanding of their meaning in the context of John’s Gospel as a whole.

            It is worth noting that, unlike John 1:1, the ancient Greek texts for John 1:18 exist in a number of variants, the notable ones being 1) monogenhs theos; 2) ho monogenhs theos; 3) ho monogenhs huios, i.e., “only [- begotten] god,” “the only [- begotten] god,” and “the only [- begotten] son.”

            Translators today usually put their preferred rendering in their main text and others in their footnotes. However, it appears that the Coptic translators did not footnote the variants, but conflated them. Perhaps they believed there was equal weight for both the “son” and the “god” readings found variously in manuscripts or papyri like the Vatican 1209, p66, p75 (“god”) and Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus, etc. (“son”).

            It is less likely that they postulated “son” from monogenhs alone, since this Greek term appears in the New Testament along with huios, which would give a redundant reading, something like “only-son son.” At any rate, what is known for sure is that both the “son” and the “god” readings are attested in the ancient Greek manuscripts, and those manuscripts or their predecessors were likely available to the 2nd/3rd century Sahidic Coptic translators.
            Posted by Memra at 6:50 AM
            Labels: Coptic John 1:1-18, James Moffatt, Sahidic Coptic version

            • just stay sweet and good

              Lincoln…I now tell people I am in agreement with Sir Issac Newton when discussing the “cult” of trinitarianism. see below:Sir Isaac Newton’s Crusade Against the Trinitarian cult

              by Ibn Anwar, BHsc (Hons), MCollT

              Already in the 1600s, Christian intellectuals that inspected the Trinitarian theology rebelled against it. The brilliant mathematician Sir Isaac Newton* was vehemently against the invented cult of Trinitarianism. He was an avid believer in the worship of the ONE absolute God. Celebrated author and historian (former nun and Christian) Karen Armstrong seems to agree with Newton’s views.

              “Like Descartes, Newton had no time for mystery, which he equated with ignorance and superstition. He was anxious to purge Christianity of the miraculous, even if that brought him into conflict with such crucial doctrines as the divinity of Christ. During the 1670s he began a serious theological study of the doctrine of the Trinity and came to the conclusion that it had been foisted on the Church by Athanasius in a specious bid for pagan converts. Arius had been right: Jesus Christ had certainly not been God and those passages of the New Testament that were used to ‘prove’ the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation were spurious. Athanasius and his colleagues had forged them and added them to the canon of scripture, thus appealing to the base, primitive fantasies of the masses: ‘Tis the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, & for that reason to like best what they understand least.’ To expunge this mumbo-jumbo from the Christian faith became something of an obsession for Newton. In the early 1680’s, shortly before publishing the Principia, Newton began work on a treatise which he called The Philosophical Origins of Gentile Theology.This argued that Noah had founded the primordial religion — a Gentile theology — which had been free of superstition and had advocated a rational worship of one God… Later generations had corrupted this pure religion, with takes of miracles and marvels. Some had fallen back into idolatry and superstition. Yet God had sent a succession of prophets to put them back on course… Jesus had been one of these prophets sent to call mankind back to the truth but his pure religion had been corrupted by Athanasius and his cohorts. The book of Revelation had prophesied the rise of Trinitariansm — ‘this strange religion of ye West’, ‘the cult of three equal Gods’ — as the abomination of desolation.” [1]

              Similarly, Historian of Science and fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Richard Westfall writes:

              “In the Origenes Newton demoted Christ even from the semidive status Arianism accorded Him. He was merely one more prophet, who came to restore the true religion after mankind’s innate propensity for idolatry had corrupted it. Trinitarianism, the worship of a man as God, had in its turn repeated the pattern of idolatry. The “Christian religion was not more true” than the religion of the children of Noah, he stated, “and did not become less corrupted.”

              …Trinitarianism was built on superstition in his view. Athansius had deliberately contrived it for the easy conversion of the heathens “by bringing into it as much of ye heathen superstition as the name of Christianity would then bear.”” [2]

              Even if Jesus may well be addressed as “God” says Newton, that in no way means that he is of Divine origin as the Father. Echoing Armstrong and Westfall, Senior Minister of the Bonhomme Presbyterian Church Dr. Tom Pfizenmaier writes:

              “Ultimately it is the Father, and the Father alone, in whom all worship terminates. Even the traditional understanding of the intermediary role of the Son is somewhat diminished in Newton’s scheme, especially in articles nine and ten. There we find that while we may call Jesus “God” without transgressing the first commandment, he is not to be worshiped as “God Almighty,” but only in relationship to his office as Monarch: as “lord, the Messiah, the Great King, and the Lamb of God.” Christ is not worshiped on the basis of his ontology according to Newton’s theology, but on the basis of his christological office. Newton could not abide worship grounded in the traditional understanding of consubstantiality, which he believed to be based in philosophy, not in scripture, and referred to it as “this strange religion of ye west,” and “the cult of three equal Gods.”” [3]

              Four hundred years ago, Newton astutely grasped the understanding that only now many modern interpreters are beginning to realise that when Jesus, if ever, is labelled as “God” (theos) in the Bible that does not denote an ontological godhood in the person of Jesus as it does in the person of the Father. Jesus may be called “God” in view of the cultural or linguistics norms of his time. He is not ontologically “God” means that he is not inherently, in meaning, God Almighty as the Father is. The Christ may only be addressed as such by virtue of his monarchical or prophetic office.

              And Professor Anthony F. Buzzard in his wonderful new translation of the New Testament, in the introductory notes, cites Armstrong, who repeats her seeming affirmation of Newton’s critique on the Trinity in a later book called ‘The Battle for God’ that was published in 2000.

              “Sir Isaac Newton was no less scathing about the very non-Jewish definition of God as Trinity:

              Newton became almost obsessed with the desire to purge Christianity of its mythical doctrines. He became convinced that the a-rational dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation were the result of conspiracy, forgery and chicancery… [Newton maintained] that the spurious doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity had been added to the creed by the unscrupulous theologians in the fourth century. Indeed, the Book of Revelation had prophesied the rise of Trinitarianism — “this strange religion of ye west, the cult of three equal Gods” — as the abomination of desolation.” [4]

              Notes:

              * I wouldn’t say traditional Arianism as forwarded and preached by Bishop Arius is Socinian Unitarianism or Unitarianism in the general sense, but it does come close to it as it disqualifies Jesus from equal sharing in the Father’s Godhood. Traditionally, the Arians thought of Jesus as a small deity that was created by God as His instrument for creation and salvation. These fundamental precepts do not appear to be in Newton’s theology. As Newton says in article eleven of his articles that thoroughly reject the Trinity, Jesus is only “God” in light of his christological office as king or messiah. Many historians might feel comfortable to lump Newton with Arius, but I simply do not see the evidence that he believed at all that Jesus was the agent of creation in whom was divinity. This very Arian belief seems starkly absent in his explications.

              Even though Newton never actually and officially defrock himself from the established (Trinitarian) Church, there leaves zero doubt that he did not merely question but utterly rejected the Trinity doctrine. One may describe him as a nominal Trinitarian — one who bears the title without actually believing it. An impartial evaluation of the evidence may come from a work called ‘The Christian Treasury’. In it they affirm what I’ve said here concerning Newton’s continued lifelong association with the Church, but “This is the sum total of the evidence that Sir Isaac Newton was not a Trinitarian; and on this infinitesimal basis rests the claim, put forth with all the boldness and assumption of infallible certainty, that this distinguished man was not merely a disbeliever in the Trinity, but positively a Unitarian — Congregationalist.” (Anon. (1853). The Christian Treasury, Containing Contributions from Ministers and Members of Various Evangelical Denominations. Edinburg: Johnstone & Hunter. p 149) This unbiased evangelical testimony is confirmed below by a couple of Unitarian sources. In a footnote to Newton’s name that John Kenrick mentions in his discussions on Unitarianism, he writes, “See the evidence of Sir Isaac Newton’s Unitarianism distinctly and ably stated by the Rev. B. Mardon of Glasgow, in the Appendix to his sensible and judicious Letter to the Rev. Dr. Chalmers. This evidence is also very judiciously exhibited by Capt. Gifford, R. N., in his late admirable “Remonstrance to the Bishop of St. David’s.”” (1871). Unitarianism The Essence of Vital Christianity: A Sermon Preached at George’s Meeting, Creter, July 10, 1817, before the Members of the Western Unitarian Society and the Devon and Cornwall Association. London: Richard and Arthur Taylor. p. 24) Similarly, John Wilson emphatically testifies to Newton’s Unitarian beliefs: “But that Newton was a Unitarian is quite certain,… as thorough a Unitarian as ever attended Essex-street Chapel. My noble and learned friend (Lord Campbell) will find this clearly proved by Sir David Brewster from examination of the Newton manuscripts, which, that learned person says, leave not a shadow of a doubt upon the subject.” (Wilson, J. (1864). Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies; Being Selections from the Works of Eminent Theologians Belonging to Orthodox Churches: With Introductiory and Occasional Remarks. Boston: Walker, Wise, and Company. p. 119)

              Notes:

              [1] Armstrong, K. (1999). A History of God: From Abraham to the Present: the 4000-year Quest for God. London: Vintage Books. p. 358

              [2] Westfall, R. S. (1986). The Rise of Science and the Decline of Orthodox Christianity: A Study of Kepler, Descartes, and Newton. In David C. Lindberg & Roland L. Numbers (Eds), God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Christianity and Science. Los Angeles, California: University of California Press. p. 231

              [3] Pfizenmaier, T. C. (1997). The Trinitarian Theology of Dr. Samuel Clarke (1675 – 1729): Context, Sources, and Controversy. The Netherlands: Koninklijke Brill. p. 163

              [4] Buzzard, A. F. (2014). The One God, the Father, One Man Messiah Translation: New Testament with Commentary. Restoration Fellowship. pp. 25-26

            • Lincoln

              Dear “just stay sweet and good”.

              Thank you very much for this explanation. I have not so good info on this James Moffatt and his Bible. I don’t have good info on JW Bible, the New World Translation either. So, I am a little unsure on the different corrections with the different ideas as to how to understand the text as we have today. John 1:1 to vers 10 I understand in the NKJ version of the Bible and it makes sense to me.

              This is the only base for me to understand the teachings from Charles Taze Russell as far as the reference I made to his writings on this subject.

              Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

              “It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11.

              Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. “When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
              Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter–the leading apostle– “he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man.” …. Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship….”
              Zion’s Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
              quote end.

              “It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us….Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him.”
              Zion’s Watch Tower 1880 Oct. p.3
              quote end.

              “Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so.

              … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
              quote end.

              ” Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
              “In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles….They worshiped him in three senses of the word:

              (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence.

              (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence.

              (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience.”

              Zion’s Watch Tower 1906 Jan. 1 p.15
              quote end.

              So, today I will say this and I find it totally in harmony with Charles Taze Russell teachings:

              On the basis of Deuteronomy 6:4 – “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength”.

              My understanding on this teachings is; God is Spirit, ruach and within the human body of Jesus God dwelled in his spirit so Jesus was both God and human at the same time.

              Colossians 2:9 New King James Version; “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;”

              So, this goes with the Holy Spirit (ruach) as well. Therefore I agree to the teachings of Charles Taze Russell as I have quoted above.

              Now I hope not I will be “shunned” from this site because of what I write. I really wish to understand and in my heart this about Jesus Christ as God in the spirit (ruach) while on earth makes sense to me.

              Now, we have (estimate) more than 2 billion Christians worldwide and many millions must flee because of persecutions. So these many millions Christians are our brothers and sisters and we must do all we can to support them also in our prayers.

              Therefore I do not mind a minor group of Bible Students. Contrary I must respect you and support you and look upon you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord. The only group who does not want this is the JW.

              Hope this comment is ok with you and we can stay brothers and sisters in the Lord together.

              • Lincoln

                to continue;

                what i like about Charles Taze Russell is the idea of applying the teachings of Jesus and the Jewish Bible as a guide to live a God fearing life. But what has happened ever since then? Not much. As far as JW are concerned they reject the whole world population and those who do something to overcome the world problems they reject.

                The idea of destroying more than 7 billion humans is no problem for them, but how the Bible Students view this I am not sure of.

                The Christians I know, work every day to support those 7 billion humans among whom they themselves lives. I will give an example as far as the theme; “The rich and how to view them” is concerned.

                In my part of the world, we also experienced this and the quote from the book of James 5: 4 “Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth”.

                So, how to handle this? In my part of the world and in my country we established the Unions.

                • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                  Lincoln,
                  Hello, my name is Brandon. Im a former Jw, a bible student now. Yes the Jw’s think that to be any part of the rest of the world could put them out of favor and possibly in line with being destroyed so reaching out a hand and showing christian love to help those outside of the Jw group is rare and unless they are preaching they do little to get involved. There are exceptions but this is frowned upon. As for billions dying, a short answer is found in 1 Tim 2:5-6. Jesus gave himself a ransom for ALL. Fear is a tool of satan, so like hellfire the destruction of Armageddon is used by Jw to control and the thought is repetitively implanted in them to truly believe this. (1 John 4:18) As far as the scriptures are concerned Jehovah will give each one fair and just opportunity to make the choice as the ransom is for not only the church but for the world. 1 john 2:2

                  • Lincoln

                    Dear Lee Anthony,

                    Thank you for your kind answer and comment. I appreciate what you write. Sometimes I am a little sad for many things and looking back in my life I must say I regret many things.

                    I wish we Christians could work more together in helping each other. The poor, the unrest and insecure in the world. This could bring the words of Jesus in a better helping situation for many. I see how so many denominations and worldly organisations are helping so much and I think this comes from God.

                    Today is my birthday 74.

                    God bless you.

                    • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                      Lincoln,
                      Wouldnt it be wonderful if all would work together to help one another. I afree and that this would be nice. One day all will certainly be blessed in God’s time through Jesus and the church. It will happen perhaps not soon enough for us. Happy birthday by the way. I just turned 32 about two weeks ago myself. Take care.
                      Brandon

              • just stay sweet and good

                The mistake people make is to apply a personhood to the term holy spirit. We reflect holy spirit when we are obedient to the revealed word of God. I is not possible to be obedient to the willl of God until we know what he requires of those who will reign with his son. This takes time. Just staying sweet and good is a start, however the scriptures plainly states we are tainted in our thinking process Romans 3:10-17 When we are convicted of our
                rebellion against God we are happy to repudiate it. Jesus did everything perfectly and he is our model to follow.
                Those of us who live only for our heavenly Papa’s smile of approval are delighted to repudiate any sin that we become aware of in our lives. Then we have holy spirit

                • Lincoln

                  Dear “just stay sweet and good”,

                  Thank you. I wish; when I speak to God I speak to the Holy Spirit. When I speak to God I speak to Jesus. When I speak to Jesus I speak to God; when I speak to the Holy Spirit I speak to God.

                  To the best of my understanding God reveals himself to us in those ways. God is one. God is Spirit, only – therefore.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk2xYOV4rnU

                  God bless you.

      • Chuck Maly

        Good morning dear Lincoln!
        I am not angry with you. I have been following your posts on here and have really enjoyed the conversations. I myself have gone through some trials and have had to ask our heavenly Father for strength quite often. Looking back at our thread, I was getting defensive of my beliefs. I felt you were putting words in my mouth and was upset. That is on me and not you. Please forgive me. An honest back and forth conversation done with love and humility is only proper. Please continue your questioning of things as it is healthy and shows a real desire to understand. Take care and God bless.
        Sincerely,
        Chuck

        • Lincoln

          Dear Chuck Maly,

          Thank you very much for very nice answer. I have good feelings about you and sorry for the trouble you have had. I understand we people get into trouble in our lives and yes, God is our helper. We must bless each other and help when needed.

          I certainly hope you are blessed now and I will remember you in my prayer. I wish you all the best and send my Christian love to you.

          God bless you. Your friend Lincoln.

        • Lincoln

          Dear Chuck Maly,

          I just come to remember something from you answer to me. You wrote; “I myself have gone through some trials and have had to ask our heavenly Father for strength quite often”.

          Many times we forget to ask each other about the things we tell so I have been rethinking this; dear Chuck Maly, would you like to talk a little about you trails? What I like to do is to think about it and if I can encourage you to get on.

          I will also pray for you. Today I will give you this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cZda2VQhsM

          God bless you Chuck.

  • Lincoln

    We believe in 2 salvations.

    Life in heaven as Jesus held out to all Christians and

    life on the earth for survivors of the tribulation and all resurrected mankind from Adam onward.
    quote end.

    My comments,

    Yes, “life in heaven for all Christians” and ? Now, this is what JW promise to only 144.000 but as you write, you believe in “life in heaven for all Christians”. I do agree to what you state, but it is a little difficult to “the other perspective”, “life on earth for ……. ”

    As a born again Christian I must agree to your first “statement”, but the other “life on earth ……” well, how would it be possible?

    What was the purpose for God to create?

    Why is the earth doomed in another 5 billion years if …. ?

    And where is “heaven” where, ” Life in heaven as Jesus held out to all Christians”?

    In my heart I understand “life in heaven”. It is a “natural” process, but life on earth is only temporary.

    So, I would like to ask you Bible students; what you teach and believe?

    In my heart, it is the soul (your spirit, ruach) that goes to heaven, where ever it might be.

    Once upon a time, Universe was created by (what we call) the Big Bang.

    We are almost 15 billion years and the “energy” is still in power. Before and beyond this, what was? God was and what we call heaven might just be “where God was”. The presence of God manifest, are we satisfied with that? To become “just like Him”, are we longing for this?

    What is going to happen with the earth after, another 5 billion years, when our Sun becomes a “red giant”? In another 1 billion years our Sun will burn earth out.

    So, life everlasting is not possible on this earth.

    There is a sanctuary in our minds (spirit/soul) and that lives forever beyond.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Lincoln let me post the links first that my statements are based on. They present your scriptures for the way we see God’s plan. I am not quoting the scriptures here when they are already in the articles and it allows you to slowly read. Okay?
      You say heavenly life is natural. It was not expected or heard of among the Jews or other humans before Christ came and told us about the opportunity for Believers in Christ. All Jews expected to live on earth, like Adam and Abraham. It is not natural for man to want to live in heaven it is a prize he runs for as a believer in Christ and hopes to attain it. Most humans don’t believe in Christ at all. They have heard about him, however.
      You say earth’s future in a billion years? I don’t know except that the bible says the earth abideth forever. You say the sun will burn out, I don’t know but I do know God got this already planned out and he promises an eternity after the little season when satan is let loose after the millennium.
      I hope by carefully reading these articles you can get a handle on what we see in scripture and draw your own conclusions on the matter. Some of your questions are answered and after you see a little then it will easier for us to answer your questions. Hope this helps Lincoln and others may jump in and give their thoughts to you also.

      Here is one link on armageddon and what happens to those that survive: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/armageddon-2/

      Now here is the other concerning the great multitude seen in heaven after the special Bride class. http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/great-crowd/

      Other sheep:http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/other-sheep/

      Now we must consider the resurrected ones and the ones that died before Christ and the unbelievers, dead and the ones that survive armageddon. Jesus died for unbelievers also: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/paradise-earth-answers/

      • Lincoln

        Dear Jaqueline, Thank you. I understand, but I will go deeper into your link later.

        I am a little afraid of most ”speculations” on ”the understanding” of Jesus teachings (that is one thing), but the Apostles inspirations from the Holy Spirit (from God) I have seen so many explanations and speculations of, that I am a little afraid. I will remind you of the Pyramide theology by Charles Taze Russell that also J.F.Rutherford believed in.

        And Charles Taze Russell speculations (based on pure Bible knowledge) went terribly wrong.

        But I understand your point, but I am not going to investigate in litterature right now, but I like to hear from your own writing what you believe and teach and what the friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.

        The teachings of brother Charles Tazse Russell I am not agree with (not all of it) because what ”they” came to has not been fulfilled and was way of.

        Therefore I like to explain some of the things I wrote to you.

        Thank you Jaqueline,

        When I wrote ”life in heaven is natural” I did it on basis of this scripture: Ecclesiastes 12:7

        ” ….and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it”.
        Quote end.

        Here again you have the core word in Hebrew, ”spirit” – ruach. w’haruach – this (in my understanding) is what follows us all the time in the Bible.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8qygaS_mS8 (please read from believers, their coments to this music.

        2.Kings 2:

        8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
        9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”

        Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

        10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.”

        11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them;

        and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

        12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, “Where is the Lord God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over.
        Quote end.

        Gen. 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

        (By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him. (Hebrews 11:5) )

        We do not know what all this means. (also because of Jesus words; John 3:13) So, the transformation of matter and ruach gives meaning that ”something” is possible to happen.

        What the Jews believed in ”after death” was simple ”to rest on God”. They were longing to be with God after life in eternity.

        The speculations on what to happen in future after death was not specific, but Jesus made it specific an still we do not comprehend it.

        1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

        “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

        Like Jesus told the one on his right side at the cross. “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise”.

        This is the connection between earthly, universel matters and this alone has only atoms and molecules, matters and >this energy< of what nature we do not know (the energy that was before Big Bang).

        The energy was there in the beginning and was set free (Big Bang) and afterwards came atoms and molecules.

        So, all what is ”matter” only exist in its energy. What is beyond this is "ha ruach" and here we find the link or connection to God.

        Everything was created according to its possible code, but if not the ruach it would still be matter. (the possible code? what ever has existed of "life" such as animals and people; they can all be collected and holed in one little teardrop in their respective molecules; DNA)

        So, there is only one possibility. Matter ( energy, atoms and molecules) and ruach (which is not matter).

        Now, I understand that "you who have been member of JW" (as I have) are fine people with a gentle heart and seeking Jesus (you still use the constructed name Jehovah) and you have much friendship to share. I also think it is ok to use the name Jehovah.

        I remember the wonderful times when I was child and young attending the assemblies meeting all the brothers and sisters.

        I remember the convention international in Stockholm (I think it was 1954) and in Copenhagen in 1961 and the one in Yankee Stadium in 1963. It was a fine time.

        I did not chose a life as Born again Christian in anger with JW, but I must say after years I felt God coming further and further away and I could not agree on all the speculations from the Watchtower and I think that made me look elsewhere.

        So, I understand today, Jesus came to me when I was searching and found me and I found him.

        I understand you pray to Jesus to day and that is fine with me. That is what I have been saying all the time, and that is what we Born again Christians do, but it seems a little frightened to you.

        I will therefore give you this from Mr. Charles Taze Russell:

        Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

        "It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11.

        Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

        Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter–the leading apostle– "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." …. Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship…."
        Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
        quote end.

        "It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us….Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him."
        Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct. p.3
        quote end.

        "Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so.

        … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
        quote end.

        " Zion's Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216
        "In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles….They worshiped him in three senses of the word:

        (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence.

        (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence.

        (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience."
        Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan. 1 p.15
        quote end.

        Rutherford continued this teaching.

        "Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)."
        Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339
        quote end.

        "During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ."
        Vindication Volume 3 p.295
        quote end.æ

        "The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)."
        Salvation p.151
        quote end.

        Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

        "Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. … Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct. 15 p.313
        quote end.

        In 1945, Knorr amended the Watchtower Charter.

        Included within the new Charter is the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus.

        This charter is a legal document that continues to be the Watchtower Charter to this day. The 1945 Yearbook includes the Charter in full. Part of the current charter states as follows:

        "The purposes of this Society are: To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing agency for that body of Christian persons known as Jehovah's Witnesses to preach the gospel of God's kingdom under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name, word and supremacy of Almighty Good JEHOVAH; to print and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths in various languages by means of making and publishing literature containing information and comment explaining Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's kingdom under Christ Jesus to authorize and appoint agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors, evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the world publicly and from house to house to preach and teach Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon to improve men, women and children mentally and morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects to establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes for gratuitous instruction of men and women in the Bible, Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, preachers, teachers and lecturers to provide and maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing of such students, lecturers, teachers and minister; to furnish gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators and ministers suitable meals and lodging and to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for

        public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus;

        to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the kingdom; and to do any and all other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem expedient for the purposes stated."
        Click Here to download a 1.82 MB PDF scan of the 1945 Charter
        http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/worshipjesus.htm
        quote end.

        So, I must say it is a little surprising to me how Jehovah`s Witnesses "has gone astray".

        Now I will give you this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=put1U0eqSrc

        I love Jesus so much.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Hi Lincoln I have not read all that you have written because I have a travel day today so others can break it down. You say I seem a little frightened of prayer to Jesus. Why would I? You mention you want to see me write what we believe the scriptures says.
          The links I gave you are written. I am different, I refuse to rewrite it when it is in the link because it requires you to do some digging and slow it down and read and look up the scriptures. Knowing God is really not as difficult as some of us make it.
          All the hebrew words etc are cerebral but I can drop to my knees and ask him to help me understand with a sincere heart. I read and listen to others as they can help me understand. You know more than I do about Br. Russell’s writings and Rutherfords. You are stuck on the pyramid and I can’t help you with that as I have not studied it. You will possibly have to wait to talk to Br. Russell and Rutherford to ask them some of the questions you have.
          I will only defend and speak for Jacqueline. And I restate Jesus opened up the way to heaven after he said “It is finished”. He had ransomed Adam and all including Eve that came out of him. So heaven was a new concept to his disciples that he explained to them that they would see him as he really is and be with him in his kingdom. Jews nor mankind before them never had a hope of heaven or believed in it. The psalmist, Job and all the faithful men of old wanted to be resurrected to life again on earth. Jesus taught something brand new.
          If you want to know what in written form I believe to each of your questions it is in the links. I am not trying to convince you, it is up to you to be comfortable with what conclusions you draw.
          I personally don’t feel God will condemn me or you if we don’t have it quite right. Br. Russell isn’t going to to suffer if he got some of it wrong.
          At least he had the courage to embark on a journey of immense magnitude for his God.
          Do not bounce your thoughts off another man’s thoughts. I don’t. I never mention Br. Russell or Rutherford as my authority. The bible is my authority.
          There are many faithful men in my association now that know way more than I do and I will avail and associate with them, but they don’t force me to agree.
          As a member of the Bible student association, we discuss scripture. We hold certain doctrine as true and unmovable as taught in the Bible. That is on this site. I will not rewrite the article here but here is the link: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/we-believe/
          We have to have some sort of order and the articles have been put there for you to personally tear apart.
          You are accustomed to the dogma way the witness teach you. I say read it, pray and be convinced and teach yourself.
          I am not a witness and don’t read or listen to anything they write or say. The charter info etc applies you say to the witnesses from 1945, all of that may be true but it has nothing to do with the Bible questions you asked.
          You are of another faith and the witnesses and Bible students have different thoughts.
          I would suggest you find one that you are comfortable with and keep an open mind to truth from whatever source.
          You are bouncing all over the place. I would like to suggest slowing it down a bit and take one subject at a time then move on.
          You are going to burn out scanning and reading and researching all that stuff about where the witnesses went wrong. It seems you have moved past that.
          I give you this advice as a friend from what I note as a professional and as a lover of Christ. It just isn’t worth the emotional toll to go back to researching past history.
          VIEW IT AS A LIFE EXPERIENCE NOT A LIFE SENTENCE, FORGIVE THE WITNESSES AND MOVE ON. If you are satisfied with where you are we don’t compel you to make changes. We will help you understand how we see it however but you don’t have to accept it and we don’t have to try and make you accept it.
          That is how the Bible student association works. Take Care

          PS: It is out of love if I seem blount, live long enough as I have and deal with psychological problems long enough and you will see why old people just say it to you. LOL God is within easy reach, don’t make it complicated, recheck how simple Jesus was.

          • Lincoln

            Dear Jacquline. Thank you. I will mark these:

            You are bouncing all over the place.
            I would like to suggest slowing it down a bit and take one subject at a time then move on.
            quote end.

            Ok.

            You are going to burn out scanning and reading and researching all that stuff about where the witnesses went wrong. It seems you have moved past that.
            quote end.

            My comment; I see it this way; if we don`t know the past and do not examine the mistakes; we are about to repeat it.

            I give you this advice as a friend from what I note as a professional and as a lover of Christ. It just isn’t worth the emotional toll to go back to researching past history.
            quote end.

            My coment; If I address Jehovah`s Witnesses, I will have to, but I understand your point.

            PS: It is out of love if I seem blount, live long enough as I have and deal with psychological problems long enough and you will see why old people just say it to you.
            Quote end.

            My coment; Thank you Jacqueline; I might be older than you.

            God Bless.

            Why does the site not automatically address this to me, LIncoln?

            • Jacqueline (Bible student)

              Lincoln you seem so sincere and i like that. My comments was to show you there is no rush, one subject and a specific queztion on the article keeps thouhts focused for the thousands of onlookers to this site. If the comments are so long because of trying to answer 10 unrelated questions and links the audience scan. I scan after the comment goes to too many subjects. I like that among the Bs association we can speak or mind. Take care age is just a number as they say but i find after 65 I filter out a lot of superfluous talk and narrow it down to be effective then move in a logical manner. But hey, Faith is not about logic is it? It is about the Power of God and we just let it all out because it moves our hearts and mouths. Tak care.

              • Lincoln

                Dear Jacqueline,thank you.

                But my “letter” was only about one thing; can we pray to Jesus and even worship Jesus?

                Ok, some say we cannot and some say we can. Jehovah`s Witnesses say we can and as I understand you are following the studies of Charles Taze Russell, so it was appropriate I thought to show that where he “promoted” this, I say.

                I try to find out what you people believe and if it does not matter who believe what and what, why don`t we just become member of any domination instead emphasise that we do not?

                To me it matters. I will tell you an experience I once had.

                I was associating with a Pentecostal Church and all of a sudden I met people from another denomination. They asked me if I like to go and represent Christianity together with other denominations and try to influence the muslim world and present Jesus to them.

                Well, maybe you know that the muslim render Jesus for a prophet. Just a prophet.

                Well, we Christians do not and I do not, so I tell you what they said to me; I should not go and it would not be a Christian “beliefs” to do so; sharing / joining them in such a way.

                Remember I came from JW who also told me, that I could not go; this time it was the Pentecostal Church I was not supposed to visit.

                Therefore to day I am a regular member of the State Church in Denmark, the Protestant Church. My youngest daughter (of my last marriage) confess the Catholic Church in Denmark.

                In the State Church in Denmark we go mostly because of the cultural tradition and we join my daughter Alexia at Christmas in the Catholic Church to support her and my two grandchildren.

                The youngest one Jamila told me the other day (she is just 6 years old and just started in school) she said; Grandpa I can say “the Lords prayer”.

                In my heart and in our home we are dedicated to the worship of Jesus as God and that we practice.

                So, in one way it does not matte and in another it does matter what you believe. I can clearly see, that at Jesus time, they also connected fellow believers, but on the other hand Jesus did not reject others with a little “private” way of doing things Luke 9:50

                So, to day I am very interested in talking with others about Jesus and how to address him. And I am very interested in finding out what happens in the Jehovah`s Witnesses world. I still have family there and I like to find out where all of you stand and why.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Lincoln, in many places there isn’t a Bs class near to a brother and they chose a church of their choice to fellowship with. One that allows free thinking and speech. We now have so much internet and phone access also. I can go in any church where they are believers in Christ but might choose not to associate because my beliefs are too different. I personally believe there can be 2 or 3 converses in a restaurant or park or at each others home. Kent does that in Sweden. He meets with one or 2. One never was a witness i think the other might hsve been but the point is it does not have to be a big church now with facebook and the internet. http://Www.jwfacts.com is a link foe what is happening in the jw world. When i get home today i will post some facebook pages that feature every word almost they speak. Lol. They are private groups so you have to be patient as you wait to be let in. I am driving for next three hours. Also your many links pops you into moderation. I had to make a small trip last night to a JW relative home. 3 hours away so i spent the night. Talk to you later today.

        • Lincoln

          I think I will just pursue my beliefs a little more. I understand that this is not your understanding and beliefs. So, I do not want to overcome you or what you believe in, but as you so I.

          In my understanding a horse is not “going to heaven” when it dies. certainly not. But a Christian is.

          If someone are a Jesus believer and a Jesus follower he will have to accept the teachings of Jesus.

          I like to state this; even Charles Taze Russell was teaching to worship Jesus. After him you could say; until the teachings was corrupted J.F.Rutherford and a couple of leaders (presidents) of Watchtower Society (created by Charles Taze Russell) was following his teachings and after some years began to change the whole thing.

          So, 1) worshiping Jesus

          and (as I) accepting the Holy Spirit as part of a trinity, union of “the Godhead”; what do we have?

          If a person does not have a soul – what is there besides the flesh and blood /bones? Nothing.

          So, when Jesus teach we go to heaven when we die, what is it “that goes” to heaven?

          Now I am just talking about what we, who calls ourselves Christians, believe. I am not trying to persuade you to accept this, but it is a pleasure for me to write it.

          Is the ruach our soul? Yes, just as Jesus soul.

          As the Ruach-Anointed, Yeshua often associates himself with the Spirit.

          Not only does he breathe forth the Ruach before his death (“Receive Holy Ruach”; John 20:22), he will “be” the Ruach or divine Presence in the future, after his departure.

          The Spirit of Truth…will be with you forever. You know him because
          he abides with you. (John 14:16-17)

          I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28:20)

          They…were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia…

          The Spirit of Yeshua did not permit them [to go into Asia]. (Acts 16:6-7)

          It is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)

          I myself will give you utterance and wisdom… (Luke 21:14-14)
          quote end.
          __________________________________________________________________

          Medieval English theologians believed the Holy Spirit (the Third Person of the Holy Trinity) was unknown to the Hebrews and Jews of the Old Testament era. They believed he first appeared at the festival of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter 2. This belief created a dilemma for them.

          For if the Third Person was unknown prior to his appearance, who or what was the Ruach mentioned in the OT?

          And if the Holy Spirit did not “come” until Pentecost, what Spirit came upon and anointed Yeshua before that event?

          To solve the problem and prevent conflicting interpretations, these theologians and their printers created two distinctions.

          Related to God, we find: ruach YHVH (spirit/Spirit of the LORD);

          ruach elohim (spirit or Spirit of God);

          ruach qodesh (holy spirit/Spirit);

          ruach tovah (good spirit/Spirit). The phrase “(the) Spirit” with no modifiers occurs some 76x.

          ruach

          ruach elohim [13x]: Gen 1:2; 41:38; Exod 31:3; Num 24:2; 1Sam 10:10; 11:6; 19:20, 23; Ezek 11:24; Ps 106:33; Job 33:4; 2Chron 15:1; 24:20
          ruach

          ruach YHVH [26x]: Jud 3:10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14; 1Sam 10:6; 16:13, 14; 19:20; 2Sam 23:2; 1Kgs 18:12; 22:24; 2Kgs 2:16; Isa 11:2; 40:7, 13; 59:19; [61:1 Adonai YHVH]; 63:14; Ezek 11:5; 37:1; Micah 2:7; 3:8; 2Chron 18:23; 20:14

          ruach

          ruach qodesh [3x]: Isa 63:10, 11; Ps 51:13 (Eng. v. 11)

          ruach

          ruach tovah [2x]: Ps 143:10; Neh 9:20

          Ruach also denotes other entities:

          angelic beings [“spirits”]: Jud 9:23; 1 Sam 16:14-16, 23; 1 Kgs 22:21-24; 2 Kgs 19:7; Job 4:15

          ghosts of dead people: 1 Sam 28:8, 13; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19
          quote end.

          So, I will give you this one:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZBOW_uwMWU

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Lincoln,

              How do you explain the teaching of the verse you quoted (Matthew 10:28) that the soul can be destroyed?

              • Lincoln

                Dear Peter, Thank you, Yes I will explain. First; we are telling each other what we believe in or how we understand the teachings of Jesus.

                1.Corinthians 15:

                16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.

                17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

                20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

                21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

                23 But each in his own order:

                Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

                24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

                25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

                29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead?

                The Resurrection Body

                35 But someone will ask,

                “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

                38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

                39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

                40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

                42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

                44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (ruach, my comment.)

                46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

                47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

                49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

                Mystery and Victory.

                50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

                53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and

                this mortal body must put on immortality.

                54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

                “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
                55 “O death, where is your victory?
                O death, where is your sting?”

                56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
                quote end.

                This is our dream. I understand some of you live in the island of Hawaii; is that correct?

                You maybe can understand us living in the northern part of the planet Earth think it must be beautiful on Hawaii and we save up money to visit some day.

                So a dream of everlasting life in paradise is natural, but it is not how I understand the Bible and I know it is not what Jehovah`s Witnesses believe either, but I do not know what you believe you will stay in eternity?

                So, our human desire is not heaven desire. Therefore the music and the worship the way I send to you.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfNf2jvnEJ4

                My soul longs for Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmjh7Dmepto

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Lincoln,

            As Chuck explained, you are ignoring that the Greek and Hebrew words for “soul” and “spirit” are different words. When Adam became a living soul, why is the word nephish used, not ruach?

            You said, “If a person does not have a soul – what is there besides the flesh and blood /bones? Nothing.”

            Solomon explains that a person’s ruach returns to God upon death, but that it is unconscious.

            Eccl 12:7 (NASV) “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.”

            Eccl 9:10 (NASV) “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.”

            Martha understood this and realized Lazarus would not be conscious again until raised from the dead.

            John 11:23-24 (NASV) “23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

            So we all have ruach (spirit) and we are a nephish (soul). When the body dies the spirit returns to God unconscious and asleep until the resurection. Once joined with a new body in the resurrection, the spirit will again become conscious. (1 Corinthians 15:38)

    • greg (Bible Student)

      Lincoln,

      I wanted to address a couple of your questions here, and connect a couple dots from some of your previous comments. I also perceive you are given to scientific understandings. So, in the interest of continuing to find things which we both agree upon, I offer the following ideas for your consideration.

      1) If I am correctly hearing and understanding what you have said, it seems that you have simply used different words to describe the same picture as I have in mind. Perhaps you can compare my words with your picture and let me know if we’re more or less “on the same page.”

      Since God created the physical universe, it stands to reason that he exists outside of it. It’s kind of like if I build a house, I already exist outside and separate from the house. And though the Bible speaks of God inhabiting the Heavens, those Heavens are not necessarily part of the physical universe.

      Additionally, since Time and Space were created and have an inseparable relationship, it also stands to reason that quite possibly God exists outside of time. Hence he can have no beginning, no end, and a thousand years can be as a day, and a day can be as a thousand years, and the Bible can quite accurately state that he is the God of the Living, including those who are currently dead to us. Isn’t it interesting that HE (God) was even able to cause the Sun (which is inextricably linked to our measurement of Time) to stand still in the sky for an entire day! (Joshua 10:13) I mean, from a human perspective, how is that even possible without throwing all kinds of physical “laws” of nature into complete chaos?

      To contemplate a being that can and does exist outside of our “dimension” then is simply an exercise in trying to form a mental model of something which can never be accurately modelled by the materials we live in. Our minds have great difficulty thinking outside of our own personal experience. I mean how can we imagine very far (extrapolate) beyond that which we’ve experienced? And to illustrate in another way, how can we make an 100% accurate model of a rocket ship using only Lego?

      As to God’s name being connected to the phrase “I Am”, several years ago I came across a consideration of the scriptural passage in Exodus 3:14. The writer linked the expression “I am” with the concepts of “To BE” and of “Self-Existence” and also spoke of the similar difficulty of putting into Human-understandable words (Hebrew, in this instance) the concept of a God who IS, WAS, and Always WILL BE, who exists outside of Time and Space, and who, while being “unchangeable”, can do whatever it is he wills, and is not limited by any of the limitations the human mind has. Thus some other valid possible translations of Exodus 3:14 could include:

      “I will be”
      “I cause to become”
      “I am who I will be”
      “I was who I am”
      “I cause to be what I cause to be”
      “I exist because I exist”
      “I am where I am”
      “I cause to become who I cause to become”
      and “The eternal one who causes existence!”

      2) As to the Sun burning out in a few billion years, I’d like to address that from two different angles: Firstly, the Bible states that after Christ’s Rule in the Peaceful Kingdom of a thousand years, there will be OTHER Ages that are yet to come. (See Ephesians 2:7, and Study IV in The Divine Plan of the Ages-Studies in the Scriptures, Volume 1) What wonders those Ages will bring remains to be seen.

      Secondly, from a more scientific approach to things, and not to get too far off topic, it is my understanding and belief that Science has MUCH to learn, and that things which they write about one day are continuously being updated and revised the next (so long as their Pride and Paid Agenda’s will allow for such progress). But specifically, although it is claimed that the sun is burning up, I do in fact believe this to be an antiquated view of the Sun. My personal research, studies, experiments, and learnings etc. have led me to conclude that the Sun is actually only a Transducer, meaning that it is continuously absorbing or “re-ordering” (from invisible -and as yet not popularly recognized- sources) as much energy as it is “outputting.” To me it’s no more mysterious than a solar panel which simply collects one form of energy and transmits another form or energy. So it is my conclusion that it’s highly unlikely the sun will ever burn out. It will just continue doing what it’s always been doing, that which God designed and intended it to do. Even IF it should actually prove to be of a time-limited nature, I trust that God already has a plan for that, one which will be revealed In Due Time.

      I hope this hasn’t come across as sounding argumentative, but merely as thought-provoking. We are, after all, curious creatures, made in God’s image. And even God himself loves a good mystery.

      -greg

      • Lincoln

        Dear brother Greg,

        Thank you. I agree.

        About “the Sun standing still”? And “the Sun ever burning out”?

        That we can discuss, but who knows as you point out; and, that God has a “plan” about (not this), but “everything”, I do also agree to.

        So, let us proceed.

        • Lincoln

          I am sure I made a mistake in connecting. I am not anonymous, but Lincoln. to understand how your site works, must I write my name and email or (as I thought) it names me automatically?

          Lincoln

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Lincoln – I have been typing in your name. You should do that. Your email address is not publically visable when you type it in, so no worries.

    • greg (Bible Student)

      Lincoln,

      In trying to explain to others my own personal understanding of the idea of one’s soul, I found this to be helpful. I’m curious to know if it is somewhat similar to your picture?

      I have a photograph of some bits of rubber, metal, and paint. You can see it here:

      http://www.partsbook.ru/cimg/2015/040519/1043194

      Perhaps you will see a smiling face when you look at that picture? But is it really a smiling face? Or is that merely us trying to make sense out of some form of non-sense, us attaching a meaning to something that may or may not have been intended?

      Or, perhaps, like me, you will recognize those bits and pieces as parts of a bicycle. And yet I would suggest that, strictly speaking, in their current state those parts only have the potential to become a bicycle. Put them together along with some other missing parts and you will get a bicycle.

      Yet take them apart again and I ask: Where is the bicycle now? The only answer that makes sense to me is: It no longer exists.

      But then, where did it go? It was there, and now it’s not, even if all the parts are still there. The difference I see exists in that it was useable in one form, but not in the other. Put together, it served a purpose. So for me, the concept of that which I call a bicycle is integral to the purpose served by the function of the parts.

      I understand my soul to simply be all the parts of me when put together. Take them (me) apart, and I no longer exist. Yet God, who causes to become, can reassemble all the parts of me that it takes to make me. Only he can put the physical parts together along with the non-physical life force, the Breath of Life, and cause me to once again become a living soul once again, and I can thus serve the function for that which I was put together.

      And yes, in the Bible, God has promised to put certain souls back together again, in a form that is still recognizable (to themselves and others who knew them) and yet is different from it’s original form, that which was physical having been transformed into spirit form, so as to serve some new purpose.

      Is this similar to your understanding?

      -greg

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        Greg, wow the best and most understandable explanation of a soul I have ever seen. Got to use it.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Greg – I enjoy reading your comments. Have you also ever considered Quantum Entanglement in explaining the soul?

        Quantum entanglement is a physical phenomenon that occurs when pairs or groups of particles are generated or interact in ways such that the quantum state of each particle cannot be described independently of the others, even when the particles are separated by a large distance — instead, a quantum state must be described for the system as a whole.

        • Lincoln

          Dear Peter K.

          Thank you. I accept your idea/explanation/picture. What I am talking about “the soul” it is not about “matter”; such as particle, quakes or even atoms and molecules. But a good picture.

          That is why I give you the Hebrew ruach. This is the only word in the Bible describing “what is not matter”.

          So, your body is “matter” and so is “the blood” (naturally) but the soul is not.

          But there is something “into” your comments there is interesting. If we continue to minimise matter your come to a point where we cannot go further, then what? Matter transform.

          The soul is not “matter”, but ruach.

          (did you see I sent a note/link to you about the will / testament of Charles Taze Russell? Maybe you already have it since it was some time ago, I can see.

          Nice talking to you.

          Lincoln.

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Lincoln,

            I think this link will help on the soul.
            http://www.heraldmag.org/2011/11mj_3.htm
            We live in a four dimensional world (including Time).

            In Quantum Physics there are mathematically about 11 dimensions. “Quantum Entanglement” would be something outside our observable four dimensions that interacts with our four dimensional world. (i.e. “soul” or memory of life which is unconscious at death). Einstein referred to it as “spooky action at a distance”

            • Lincoln

              Peter:

              That is why I give you the Hebrew ruach. This is the only word in the Bible describing “what is not matter”.

              So, your body is “matter” and so is “the blood” (naturally) but the soul is not.

              The soul is not “matter”, but ruach. Also, God is ruach and Jesus.

              (did you see I sent a note/link to you about the will / testament of Charles Taze Russell? Maybe you already have it since it was some time ago.

              • Chuck Maly

                Lincoln,
                As a student of Hebrew the word ruach is in reference to spirit and not soul (being), which is nephesh. The “spirit being” (ruach) is a being unto itself just as the “earthly being” (nephesh) is a being unto itself. Two different types of existence. One does not inhabit the other.

                Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

                Once dead there is nothing. In the resurrection, some will be resurrected earthly and others spiritually. A resurrection is to be given to all as Jesus died so that all may live. Each individuals resurrection will be one of two different types.. Earthly or Spiritually depending on Gods purpose for that individual.

                The concept adopted by some early Christians, that there is a spirit that leaves the body at death, was brought in to the teachings from paganistic beliefs. It was a continuation of the first lie by Satan that “surely you won’t die.” It is amazing how Satan’s great lie is still taught in churches to this day. I’m sure he is very thrilled that that first lie has lasted this long.

                So, this is my understanding of Scriptural teaching. Guided by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. I hope this helps your understanding of this belief held by most on this site. And, it is not our intention to change your beliefs.

                In Christ,
                Br. Chuck

                • Lincoln

                  Dear Chuck Maly,

                  Thank your for your comment. Well, I am not a student of Hebrew so I cannot say so much, but I can say what I experience in my heart.

                  The Spirit of Truth…will be with you forever. You know him because
                  he abides with you. (John 14:16-17)

                  I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28:20)

                  They…were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia…
                  The Spirit of Yeshua did not permit them [to go into Asia]. (Acts 16:6-7)

                  It is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)

                  I myself will give you utterance and wisdom… (Luke 21:14-14)
                  quote end.

                  I know there are many “ideas” as how the ruach / you soul is function, but I think it is not difficult. We have to separate “flesh” and spirit.

                  The Egyptians are men, and not God,
                  And their horses are flesh and not Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)

                  (here we must recon, that when God created horses, he also gave ruach, but in this case horses did not develop a soul, not like us. Why not? Because animals are not “created in the image of God”)

                  God . . . (is) . . . Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)
                  God is Pneuma. (John 4:24, Greek)
                  quote end.

                  I am sure you know this Internet site: http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/spirit/ruachpneuma.html

                  Now, how can we say that “something” continues living after death? Does the Bible “prove” this utterance? Yes it does. But of course, this is (has been) a hidden mystery (holy secret). Not that is has not been written or able to find and to understand, but it was not direct reviled to men from God, only in its due time.

                  1.Corinthians 15:

                  50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters,

                  that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

                  nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                  51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

                  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                  53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

                  54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
                  quote end.

                  In conclusion I will say this; Maybe I cannot “prove” it and maybe you do not experience it (as I do, and I am not alone), but it is possible.

                  I was once a JW for 40 years and I have read all Watchtower literature way back to 1884, but one night Jesus called me and I cannot tell exactly what happened because I may not understand fully, but my hear, my soul and Gods spirit within me understand perfectly.

                  Let me give you an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktsPuZvH-rQ

                  So, if you go further into this you will find that all over the world it is the same.

                  Dear brother Chuck, this goes on for hours and hours. We praise and sing to the glory of Jesus all the time. It will never stop. It can`t. I cannot explain it, but I see it and my spirit understands.

                  It is not a deep study and investigation, because these people hundreds and thousands of them cannot read and write but their soul listen. Their sols are so thirsty and hungry.

                  You cannot fool them.

                  I give you another example: In Africa Christians are been burned down and destroyed, but keep on worshiping Jesus.

                  Yes, we are talking about millions of muslims who are seeking Jesus.

                  This experience tells me that Jesus is alive:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bHAn5i4NiE this makes me cry. I have children and grandchildren myself.

                  Once they find him it goes like you can see here in Egypt:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPDvZP0Q4NE

                  Tell me when you were standing in a public place to cry out to Jesus his name for hours?

                  and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db_p1mDhusc
                  70 thousand Egyptian Christians sing Emmanuel – God is with us.

                  Please notice the words they sing.

                  This “the first love to Jesus”.

                  From you brother Lincoln.

                  • Chuck Maly

                    Lincoln,
                    Thank you for your reply. I understand where you are coming from. I attended the “Christian Life Assemblies of God” for a few years while I was searching. I was raised Presbyterian. I am familiar with your beliefs and understand them to be sincere. I just do not agree with them as the Holy Spirit has guided me.

                    You stated:

                    “(here we must recon, that when God created horses, he also gave ruach, but in this case horses did not develop a soul, not like us. Why not? Because animals are not “created in the image of God”)”

                    What I do not think you understand as I do is that “spirit” and “soul” are not interchangeable. You keep interchanging them. One is of God (spirit/ruach) and the other is a being (soul/nephesh). Horses were DEFINATELY created a soul (being). Look up the Hebrew used in Genesis. The animals were created a soul just as man was.

                    Gen 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so. [Darby]

                    Gen 2:7  And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul. [Darby]

                    You stated:

                    “God . . . (is) . . . Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)
                    God is Pneuma. (John 4:24, Greek)
                    quote end.”

                    And to this I strongly agree. Again, do not confuse spirit/ruach with soul/being/nephesh.

                    You stated:

                    “In conclusion I will say this; Maybe I cannot “prove” it and maybe you do not experience it (as I do, and I am not alone), but it is possible.”

                    I agree, we do not see it the same. By understanding the Hebrew I have proven to myself that what I believe is the truth. We both believe our understanding is from the Holy Spirit. I will not argue with you.

                    You stated:

                    “So, if you go further into this you will find that all over the world it is the same.”

                    Just remember the quote: “Just because a majority of the people believe something does NOT make it true.” The beliefs of the Catholic Church (millions of people) would be spot on if it was true due to so many people believing in it.

                    You stated:

                    “You cannot fool them.”

                    Well, maybe I can’t but we all know Satan is the great deceiver. His first GREAT LIE is still believed by millions of “Christians” today.

                    I will leave it at this because I know I will not change your mind and I DEFINITELY will not change mine. I have enjoyed the conversation but have no more to offer that will convince you. May the Holy Spirit (not Satan) be with you.

                    In Christ,
                    Br. Chuck

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Chuck Maly,

                      I also thank you for interesting input. You are right and I will just let it be. I am sure you do not mind when I write again to whoever likes to read as long people here allow me to say my mind.

                      God bless you.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Lincoln,

                      Actually, it looks like Chuck is right. I would like to hear how you would answer Chuck. If we all agree to honestly submit to scripture, should we not all eventually come to the same conclusion?

                  • Lincoln

                    In heaven for hours and hours; no we cannot go yet, but we will.

                    Once slaves for the white man, now kings. I will go with you for eternity. I love you brothers, you black people are my family.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCshIflFsPg

                    At the Cross! Here we come Jesus, marching to you.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmNU-B-Qx_k

                    Thank you Jesus, ruach is in my heart.

                    I was in New York 25.january 2016 but unfortunately I did have very little time for anything cause my business. Next time I come visit you.

                    I have a story I will tell you Friends of Jehovah`s Witnesses.

                    I went to the convention in New York many years ago. Yankee Stadium 1963.

                    Here I met and stayed with this Jehovah Witnesses family; Charles and Delores Peerman with children Charles jr. and Abigail.

                    I remember those beautiful children of the family. I miss you very much.

                    They lived in houses Woodrow Wilson buildings; I think it was in East Harlem. He knows me as Niels Lundgreen from Toronto Canada.

                    Now, if any of you know them please tell me what happened to this family.

                • Lincoln

                  Dear Chuck Maly,

                  First I will say this. Now I have tried two times to answer you but every time my writings disappear. Very strange, don’t you think so?? But, I will try now for the third time:

                  Dear Chuck Maly, Thank your for your comment. Well, I am not a student of Hebrew so I cannot say so much, but I can say what I experience in my heart.

                  The Spirit of Truth…will be with you forever. You know him because
                  he abides with you. (John 14:16-17)

                  I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28:20)

                  They…were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia…
                  The Spirit of Yeshua did not permit them [to go into Asia]. (Acts 16:6-7)

                  It is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)

                  I myself will give you utterance and wisdom… (Luke 21:14-14)
                  quote end.

                  I know there are many “ideas” as how the ruach / you soul is function, but I think it is not difficult. We have to separate “flesh” and spirit.

                  The Egyptians are men, and not God,
                  And their horses are flesh and not Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)

                  (here we must recon, that when God created horses, he also gave ruach, but in this case horses did not develop a soul, not like us. Why not? Because animals are not “created in the image of God”)

                  God . . . (is) . . . Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)
                  God is Pneuma. (John 4:24, Greek)
                  quote end.

                  I am sure you know this Internet site: http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/spirit/ruachpneuma.html

                  Now, how can we say that “something” continues living after death? Does the Bible “prove” this utterance? Yes it does. But of course, this is (has been) a hidden mystery (holy secret). Not that is has not been written or able to find and to understand, but it was not direct reviled to men from God, only in its due time.

                  1.Corinthians 15:

                  50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters,

                  that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

                  nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                  51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

                  52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

                  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                  53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

                  54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
                  quote end.
                  __________________________________________________

                  In conclusion I will say this; Maybe I cannot “prove” it and maybe you do not experience it (as I do, and I am not alone), but it is possible.

                  I was once a JW for 40 years and I have read all Watchtower literature way back to 1884, but one night (25 years ago) Jesus called me and I cannot tell exactly what happened because I may not understand fully, but my hear, my soul and Gods spirit within me understand perfectly.

                  What ever happened that night still gives me this strange feeling in my heart, even now when I sit and write to you.

                  Let me give you an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktsPuZvH-rQ

                  So, if you go further into this you will find that all over the world it is the same.

                  I give you another example: In Africa Christians are been burned down and destroyed, but keep on worshiping Jesus. (I will not give you these horrible pictures of them.)

                  Yes, we are talking about millions of muslims who are seeking Jesus. Things happens in the muslim world that we may not be aware of. I will give you this one:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bHAn5i4NiE

                  this is almost too much for me. My heart cries so much.

                  Once they find him it goes like you can see here in Egypt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4x83NmFvpY

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db_p1mDhusc

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPDvZP0Q4NE
                  (can you remember when you last time stood in public and shouted the name Jesus with such a joy for hours?)

                  So, Brother Chuck, it is good we talk together.

                • Lincoln

                  Dear Chuck Maly,

                  First I will say this. Now I have tried tre times to answer you, but every time my writings disappear. Very strange, don’t you think so?? But, I will try now for the fourth time:

                  Dear Chuck Maly, Thank your for your comment. Well, I am not a student of Hebrew so I cannot say so much, but I can say what I experience in my heart.

                  The Spirit of Truth…will be with you forever. You know him because
                  he abides with you. (John 14:16-17)

                  I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28:20)

                  They…were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia…
                  The Spirit of Yeshua did not permit them [to go into Asia]. (Acts 16:6-7)

                  It is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)

                  I myself will give you utterance and wisdom… (Luke 21:14-14)
                  quote end.

                  I know there are many “ideas” as how the ruach / you soul is function, but I think it is not difficult. We have to separate “flesh” and spirit.

                  The Egyptians are men, and not God,
                  And their horses are flesh and not Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)

                  (here we must recon, that when God created horses, he also gave ruach, but in this case horses did not develop a soul, not like us. Why not? Because animals are not “created in the image of God”)

                  God . . . (is) . . . Ruach. (Isaiah 31:3)
                  God is Pneuma. (John 4:24, Greek)
                  quote end.

                  I am sure you know this Internet site: http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/spirit/ruachpneuma.html

                  Now, how can we say that “something” continues living after death? Does the Bible “prove” this utterance? Yes it does. But of course, this is (has been) a hidden mystery (holy secret). Not that is has not been written or able to find and to understand, but it was not direct reviled to men from God, only in its due time.

                  1.Corinthians 15:

                  50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters,

                  that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

                  nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                  51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

                  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                  53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

                  54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
                  quote end.
                  __________________________________________________

                  In conclusion I will say this; Maybe I cannot “prove” it and maybe you do not experience it (as I do, and I am not alone), but it is possible.

                  I was once a JW for 40 years and I have read all Watchtower literature way back to 1884, but one night (25 years ago) Jesus called me and I cannot tell exactly what happened because I may not understand fully, but my hear, my soul and Gods spirit within me understand perfectly.

                  What ever happened that night still gives me this strange feeling in my heart, even now when I sit and write to you.

                  Let me give you an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktsPuZvH-rQ

                  So, if you go further into this you will find that all over the world it is the same.

                  I give you another example: In Africa Christians are been burned down and destroyed, but keep on worshiping Jesus. (I will not give you these horrible pictures of them.)

                  Yes, we are talking about millions of muslims who are seeking Jesus. Things happens in the muslim world that we may not be aware of. I will give you this one:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bHAn5i4NiE

                  this is almost too much for me. My heart cries so much.

                  Once they find him it goes like you can see here in Egypt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4x83NmFvpY

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db_p1mDhusc

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPDvZP0Q4NE
                  (can you remember when you last time stood in public and shouted the name Jesus with such a joy for hours?)

                  So, Brother Chuck, it is good we talk together.

            • Lincoln

              Dear Peter,

              Thank you. I will try to go trough it and before I do there is something we must understand. I understand we are not trying to convince each other, but we are trying to explaine our understanding of the Bible.

              Does man have a soul/spirit.

              From the days of Charles Taze Russell and after him, J.F.Rutherford until to day, The Watchtower Organisation has promoted itself as

              ”The Only True Religion On Earth” or

              ”The Worldpover Of The Only Existing Government” (on God`s behalf) as

              ”The True Representatives Of God And Of His Force”;

              who are going to roole over the whole world (people/Jehovah`s Witnesses)”.
              ________________________________________________________________________

              I understand now, that this (what I just mentioned) you who call yourselves ”Friends of Jehovah`s Witnesses” sort of a name for your ”denomination”; (I don`t think I would use the same expression)

              you are more the less following the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and still studying the books and writings from him.

              Is that correct understood?
              ______________________________________________________________________

              So, from this point of view I can only say that Charles Taze Russell speculations and his interest in the ”Pyramide Theology” is not correct, but facination.

              For the last past more than 100 years you people have been expecting the ”Calculations Of The Creative Periode” of 6 + 1 days all together 7 days which you people have calculated unto a periode of 7.000 years each all together 49.000 years before God would bring earth back to what you believe, ”Paradice on Earth” like Adam time.

              So, this should have ended long time ago, but your calculations are wrong. Everyone can see this, but to my surprise (I have this understanding), that you people still hold fast to it.

              You have calculations for almost everything following these strange calculations you name many names such as the time of gentiles should end 2.520 years after what?

              And then harmageddon as you understand it should kill 7 billion people; even though you are talking about all mankind to have a change to survive, which Jehovah`s Witnesses do not have.

              So, I must say this to establish my point of believe about the Soul, ( I do not think I ever have been talking about an immortal soul here), but just man`s soul. The Theme “An Immortal Soul” is another debate.

              I have refered this ”fenomena” to the hebrew word ruach as the man`s soul and I hold fast to that.

              Now, if I have told you og written that I believe the soul is immortal, please show me where.

              So, untill now I have only stated that man has a soul and I render this to the word Ruach. It is Pneuma in greek.

              Hebrew word “ruach”, is the Greek word pneuma, (see Acts 2.17-18)

              I will quote from here:

              Nephesh and psuche are often translated as “life”.

              One of the most common ways to translate both nephesh and psuche is “life”, but an important distinction needs to be made regarding this translation, to avoid confusion.
              Nephesh and psuche both mean “life” in the sense of an individual, or the life experiences of an individual.

              However, they do not refer to “life”, in the sense of the vitality or life force within someone or something.

              First, we need to consider that our word “life” can be used in different ways, and mean many different things.

              For example, life can refer to an individual, person, or being in a non-specific way, as in “save a life” or “the war cost many lives”.
              Both nephesh and psuche can certainly mean life in this context.

              Life can also mean the collection or summation of ones experiences in the world, either looking backwards into the past, or forward into the future, as in “he led a wild life”, or “have a nice life”.

              Both nephesh and psuche can also mean life in this way as well.

              Another important meaning of the word “life” is to refer to strength, vitality, or vigor of something, in either a physical or spiritual sense. For example, you could say that something “came to life”, or is “full of life”, or that “Jesus is the bread of life”.

              Nephesh and psuche are never used in this way, but rather the Hebrew chaya and the Greek zoe are generally the only words used to refer to life in this context.

              So when the scripture speaks of a person giving up or releasing their nephesh or psuche, it cannot be properly understood to be saying that they gave up or released their strength, vitality, or life force, because nephesh and psuche have no such meaning.

              It can only be understood to mean that they gave up or released themselves, in the sense of their centers of consciousness or souls. A careful analysis of the different biblical usages of nephesh and psuche bears this out.

              Ruach” is the Hebrew word for spirit.

              Another critical and interesting word is the Hebrew word ruach. Ruach literally refers to wind or a current of air, but in scripture we understand it to mean something much more.

              Namely, ruach refers to spirits, or things of a spiritual nature.

              To recognize this connection, we must look at the basic meaning of the word, which is wind. Wind is not something that can be seen or grasped, but it can definitely be felt. When the wind blows you might feel a chill in your body or see the leaves on the trees rustle, and therefore you know that its there through its effect on you, and the world around you.

              The same is true of spiritual things.

              When a certain spirit is present a person with discernment can feel its presence and observe its affect, though it’s not physically manifest.

              So the word “ruach” implies to us something that is ethereal and diffuse, not corporal or material.

              In this way, ruach is used to refer to the supernatural forces and also beings that operate in the world, both internally and externally of man.

              So is there any evidence in the Old Testament of man having an invisible spirit or ruach that is fundamental to him, in other words, a spiritual soul? There are some interesting verses that at least point in that direction.

              The book of Numbers refers to God as being ruler over the spirits of all flesh, “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits [ruach] of all flesh, set a man over the congregation” (Numbers 27.16 KJV bible), (see also Numbers 16.22).

              We learn in Ecclesiastes that these individual spirits or souls continue on after death of the flesh, implying that they are supernatural, “Who knoweth the spirit [ruach] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [ruach] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” (Ecclesiastes 3.21 KJV bible).

              King David describes commending his spirit into God’s hand, in a redemptive sense, “Into thine hand I commit my spirit [ruach]: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth” (Psalm 31.5 KJV bible).

              Also, Daniel curiously describes his spirit as being grieved in the midst of its sheath or body, “I Daniel was grieved in my spirit [ruach] in the midst of my body [Chaldean: nidneh – sheath], and the visions of my head troubled me” (Daniel 7.15 KJV bible).

              Another persuasive verse comes from the book of Zechariah, where he describes God as forming or fashioning the spirit of man, “saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit [ruach] of man within him” (Zechariah 12.1 KJV bible). Zechariah describes the Lord forming the spirit within man, as an act of creation.

              Quote end. http://www.cupofwrath.com/risen-dust/09-soul-spirit.php

              Now, I will give you one of our songs (Christian songs) that tells what the soul longs for.

              My Soul Longs for You – Jesus Culture – Bethel Prayer Meeting Lyrics

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJQx_JmtVA

              My soul longs for you
              My soul longs for you
              Nothing else will do
              Nothing else will do

              I believe you will come like the rain

              You’ll come like the rain

              So let it rain
              Let it rain

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Lincoln,

                Our website is about having an honest two way discussion. We respond directly to your points and evidence and you should do the same. Our readers decide. Just copying and pasting points from other websites is not a discussion. Some of that is okay to a point, but it is unfair for us to be debating an absent website. We are talking to you. We have to either kindly respond to or refute your points or not respond at all. You need to do the same. Each discussion string should stick one topic.

                • Lincoln

                  Dear Peter,

                  I understand what you are telling me, but when you refuse my words and comments and say I am mistaken and do not understand the different words, then I must give reference, so you also can understand.

                  When I try to establish the fact that our soul/spirit is ruach you say I am mistaken.

                  Then you try to help me in this understanding you have, and starts talking about quantum physics.

                  Once again I say, that ruach has nothing to do with matter, and I give you reference and in the same movement we are talking about Matthews 10:28

                  This scripture define the two perspective I am trying to establish (yours /Greeg and mine).

                  I give you expert usage, but now you say you don`t want that but you want to talk to me only and you do not accept my sayings.

                  I must say; exactly in this scripture and the reference I have given, it is quite clear that the ruach is our spirit (our soul).

                  Now I will say this, when we are resurrected, the body does not follow, but the ruach does. That will be our new body, the spiritual body.

                  So, in this case you will have to accept what I say since I cannot give evidence from the Internet that others have found out the same as I.

                  So, I will accept what you say and in the future we must use my sayings alone.

                  Now, this brings me to this point.

                  How much do you appreciate ( and how much do you think others appreciate) the music I give you?

                  • Chuck Maly

                    Lincoln,
                    This will by my last post to you. (One shouldn’t beat a dead horse!) I understand you are trying to prove what you believe to be true. That in itself is noble. I cannot change your mind. Only the Lord through the Holy Spirit can do that.

                    You again stated:
                    “When I try to establish the fact that our soul/spirit is ruach you say I am mistaken.”
                    and:
                    “I must say; exactly in this scripture and the reference I have given, it is quite clear that the ruach is our spirit (our soul).”

                    You continue to believe the great lie put forth in the garden by Satan. SOUL and SPIRIT are two different things!

                    Soul – Nephesh = It takes the combination of physical body and breath of life to create a soul, a BEING. I have given you the two Scriptures from Genesis stating this. When dead, it is dead it does not go on to live somewhere else. Whether that be Heaven or the terrible, horrible fires of “Hell”. (That is ANOTHER subject disproved amongst those that understand we have a loving God.)

                    Spirit – Ruach = The Spirit of God, the breath of God, etc., not a being in itself but a description. There ARE spirit BEINGS. The angels are an example of this.

                    NOWHERE in Scripture does “Immortal Soul” appear. It is the construction of men that believed the Great Lie by Satan that, “Surely you won’t die.” It was a twist on the pagan belief systems of the world. An immortal SOUL would be an immortal BEING, consisting of earthly body and breath that lives forever because it cannot die. We understand this type of being does not exist except in fairy tales and movies.

                    You stated:
                    “I give you expert usage, but now you say you don`t want that but you want to talk to me only and you do not accept my sayings.”

                    Experts at what? Many “experts” are just repeating the mantra/doctrine. True SCRIPTURAL Study contradicts many of these “experts” all the time.

                    You stated:
                    “So, in this case you will have to accept what I say since I cannot give evidence from the Internet that others have found out the same as I.”

                    I do not “have to accept what [you] say.” You state you cannot give evidence from the internet. Why would you even consider that when we have the SCRIPTURES themselves to prove what is true?

                    I want to state that I am NOT a Jehovah’s Witness. I never have been. That group came into existence after Br. Russell died via the distorted system created by Rutherford. I AM a member of the Bible Student movement that has been around since started by Br. Russell in the late 1800’s. I DO NOT worship Br. Russell either. That would be wrong. You sound like you were dissatisfied with the teachings of the JW organization. I can understand that. Just don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.

                    I notice a lot of your beliefs that you put forth here have been based on your “feelings” wherever you state they may have come from. That is dangerous as Satan slips right in. I base my beliefs on SCRIPTURE as guided by the Holy Spirit. NOT my feelings. Having attended the charismatic fellowship offered by “The Christian Life Assemblies of God” years ago, I KNOW it is so easy to get caught up in our feelings. I did. They made me feel special. (Kind of like the JW’s do.) From alter calls to shouting “Amen”, I did it all and felt so strong in my heart that it was from Jesus. It was all a scam to gain control of the weak (I was weak at the time) and get my money through tithing. (I am very poor financially but rich in my Love of the Lord.) My eyes were opened as to the corrupt dogma they believed in and taught once I asked our Father for guidance. I now study the Scriptures, any other Gospel is false.

                    Gal 1:6  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
                    Gal 1:7  not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
                    Gal 1:8  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

                    This other gospel that has slipped into mainstream “Christianity” is a testament to what Paul was speaking of. It was starting in his time.

                    I’ve probably put enough up here for now! So, may the Lord guide you and I wish you Christian Love. No hard feelings!

                    In Christ,
                    Br. Chuck

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Chuck Maly,

                      Thank you. You write many things here I like to discuss with you, but you tell me that this is the last I get from you and therefore I am sorry not to be able to answer you.

                      In conclusion here I will just mention 1.corintians 15: and there you will find all the answers.

                      I am not alone to have this believe and therefore I gave information I found on the Internet.

                      Just as I found you on the Internet. There is nothing wrong in listening to what others have to say.

                      As far as the feelings are concerned; yes feelings are the strongest power exist.

                      So, should I be ashamed of praising Jesus and praying to Jesus by exalting him? I am not ashamed of that and I know Jesus loves it.

                      You see, Jehovah`s Witnesses has been around for almost 120 years and printed billions of books and magazines, but what happens? Nothing.

                      Yes, they have created a sect with around 6 million people who believe God will kill the rest of the entire population (7 billion) because we are not Jehovah`s Witnesses.

                      And I can understand you believe Jehovah will also kill all other than you because we believe in Jesus and worship and praise him the way we do.

                      But you go and tell 1 billion muslims (Islam) what you think about them and what God think about them and then? Do you think they will love you?

                      They will not.

                      So, I will tell you what happens when we born again Christians come and tell about Jesus.

                      They trough away all they have in their hand’s, and start to worship Jesus. I would have loved to show you, but yes, sorry.

                      So, you think it is Satan? It is very rare we in the Christian church talk about Satan. We mostly talk about Jesus and it is his name all the time.

                      But “if Satan is driving out Satan ……….God`s Kingdom has come to you.” (Jesus words) you read yourself.

                      I understand on you, you study the teachings of Charles Taze Russell? Ok.

                      Jesus is Lord.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Lincoln, Hello. I wanted to ask you one question. Are you aware we are not Jehovah’s witnesses and there is a difference. We don’t have an organization or anyone we have to follow? The two histories can’t be combined as the Jehovah witness was a new religion with different understanding of scripture and have bylaws like a corporation and a person(s) to report to? I just notice in some of your comments you ask questions we can’t answer because you blend the two religions.
                      It is like blending a question to the Catholic and the Orthodox, one can’t answer for the other. Take Care.

                  • ZionsHerald (Jeff)

                    Hi Lincoln,

                    I’d like to make a suggestion to you if you are interested in seeking further information about the subject of the soul and hell.

                    In most Christian circles today, there are many Christians of all denominations that do not believe in an immortal soul or a literal hell fire. I even purchased a book by Edward Fudge called “Hell: A Final Word” at my local Family Christian bookstore.

                    There is even a recent movie that I purchased at Walmart on Edward Fudges’ life, and his conclusion on this subject. The movie is both drama and a love story in how he met his wife and how he got to his conclusion on this subject. It makes for a very interesting approach to the subject.

                    There was even a recent documentary on the subject you may find fascinating which touches on all aspects of this subject. While it doesn’t hand down a conclusion, it definitely points you to resources for further research on the subject.

                    http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/

                    • ZionsHerald (Jeff)

                      Ooops.

                      I neglected to give the name of the other film that I was talking about.

                      Hell and Mr. Fudge.

                      http://www.hellandmrfudge.org/

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Jeff,

                      Thank you very much for your information and the viewpoints you give. I just don’t know what to say. I agree to the point that God does not do evil things and tormenting humans (and all other living creatures) is not God`s style. So I don`t know what to say. I don’t believe in eternal punishment in everlasting torture and pain. So, well I do not think about this when I talk about God.

                      I am not going to watch the films, but I have read about them and the author and SDA promoting this. So one can say; we believe the information, but not the organisation (JW).

                      This was Hell, so what about Paradise?

                      In my heart there is Jesus the Crucified. My life today after 40 years with JW and 25 years as a Christian I look back on my life. I have done much wrong and sinned against God law. I regret very much. But life must go on.

                      Mostly I have done unjust against other people and hurt them. Thinking back, thinking about what I should have done I think to myself I could not do different at the time. But I trust Jesus.

                      So, today I end up with 4 beautiful children and 8 beautiful grandchildren. 2 of my children are believers and bringing up grandchildren in love of God. 1 is JW and 2 grandchildren JW as well.

                      The future I don’t know what is going to happen, but again; I trust Jesus. My wife 20 years of marriage, is a believer too. She is from Buddhist culture, but is baptised into the Christian faith.

                      We believe in the resurrection to heavenly life afterwards. I see no other options within the Bible (or generally in life history).

                      While we are here on the planet earth we must live a good life and do good to others so we all can live as one big family loving each other.

                      There are many opinions about Hell and Bible faith, but as one of my friends says; we are most certain about the things we don’t know much about.

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Thank you for your reply Lincoln,

                      My wife and I have been married nearly twenty years and we are the parents of one child who is eleven. My wife was born under communism in Romania and has many faith strengthening stories she has shared of integrity under persecution.

                      We all need integrity in our Bible studies. We may not all come to the same conclusions, but that is the strength of the Bible Students over the Jehovah’s Witnesses. While the JWs claim that they have “unity” in their faith, it appears to be false to me as any who have a difference of opinion are immediately shunned. This is not the unity of Christ. However the Bible Students have a unity in diversity of opinions. We have the same basic beliefs, and even entertain a wide variety of opinions in our meetings.

                      A friend of mine told me a story about a Jehovah’s Witness from Argentina that visited our congregation years ago. There was a lively debate on a particular subject and many ideas were entertained. At the end of the study the differing viewpoints were entertained and they moved on. At this point in time the Jehovah’s Witness leaned over to the translator and asked, “When is the elder going to tell them the truth”? The translator simply replied that the members of the congregation had all the viewpoints in mind and it was up to them to go home and study the Scriptures themselves to come to a conclusion on the matter. The JW replied, “I’m glad I’m a Jehovah’s Witness because they tell us what to believe.”

                      I mention this story because I skimmed through your discussion with Chuck. We should be careful not to pigeon hole someone’s beliefs because we have assumptions about what they believe when we really don’t know if they have differences of an opinion on a subject than others that they meet with for Bible Study.

                      We should also be careful to take time to read posts that are written to us. If someone raises a point, take time to respond to the points. Don’t bring in new evidence or move to other passages or points without first addressing what was already discussed. If you don’t know, simply say you don’t know. And I’m glad that you stated clearly you don’t really know how a lot of things will turn out, but be careful how you judge someone else’s differing opinions than those you hold especially if you aren’t taking the time to respond to the points that are addressed.

                      This reminds me of many (well… all) of the conversations I’ve had over the last 30 years with JWs regarding my differences of opinion on what they believe. Instead of answering the context of a Scripture I raise or a point of disagreement, they simply move on to another argument or subject rather than addressing what is currently under discussion. When this happens I simply realize these JWs were not interested in dialog, they just simply wanted to tell me what to believe. Possibly this is true because they simply do not know, but do not want to admit that they do not know and they simply just want to point out how I am wrong somehow. I don’t find this an honest trait. Now, I have met some very honest JWs in the past and have had great dialog and discussions with those who take the time to have a great discussion, and I have a continued friendship with them to this day. Hopefully we can have a friendly dialog as well?

                      Regarding torture — While I can state I simply don’t believe God would do something because it’s not in his nature, this is hardly compelling evidence on a subject. We simply can follow what the word of God tells us.

                      Regarding heaven — The Jews did not have a concept of a heavenly reward and no such idea is found in the old testament. This was something new that Jesus brought to them. They expected a resurrection, and they expected an earthly resurrection in a renewed earth. If you find any Old Testament reference to a belief that the Jews expected a heavenly reward let me know.

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Jeff, (ZionsHerald) I have this feeling I am not welcome here anymore (this time) but I found I could reply here and so I will do.

                      Dear Jeff, (ZionsHerald)

                      I really appreciate you comment. Thank you very much. I myself has such a longing for Jesus in my heart. All day I think and pray to God in my heart.

                      I am glad you have a nice life with your family. I know a little about Romania. I was there in 1967 near the Black Sea (Mamaria) for holiday and listen to the beautiful culture music.

                      Jeff, you write:

                      “We all need integrity in our Bible studies. We may not all come to the same conclusions, but that is the strength of the Bible Students over the Jehovah’s Witnesses. While the JWs claim that they have “unity” in their faith, it appears to be false to me as any who have a difference of opinion are immediately shunned. This is not the unity of Christ. However the Bible Students have a unity in diversity of opinions. We have the same basic beliefs, and even entertain a wide variety of opinions in our meetings”.

                      “Regarding heaven — The Jews did not have a concept of a heavenly reward and no such idea is found in the old testament. This was something new that Jesus brought to them. They expected a resurrection, and they expected an earthly resurrection in a renewed earth. If you find any Old Testament reference to a belief that the Jews expected a heavenly reward let me know”.
                      Quote end.

                      Yes, Jeff that is true. JW does not only believe they have ”unity”, but also ”they have the truth” and therefore if you do not agree with the teachings of JW well, we don’t have the truth. In this letter I will give you some experience from millions of Christians in Brazil.

                      You also mention about the afterlife in heaven as a ”new concept of Jesus”. Many times people have many ideas of God and heaven. Because of Jesus we Christians has adopted the “Holy Book of the Jews” and “their God JHVH”, because of Jesus. This is why I understand the teachings of Charles Taze Russell about the deity of Jesus. Studying the Bible I must say; which translation?

                      Therefore the KJ version gives this word: John 1:1 ”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

                      Reading further (in the Book of John) we are introduced to God coming to this planet Earth (vers 14). But I understand the Bible Students has another understanding about this. I myself understand; “God is Spirit”, so I understand the situation this way; Jesus was human with the Spirit of the Godhead within him. He had a dbl. nature.

                      Therefore I don`t know how I belong to whom of you groups of people. In the Christian world I have a reference here:

                      As good as we can we try to bring the messeage of Jesus to millions, in many different ways. 1) helping the poor. 2) worshipping and teaching through this.

                      1) https://www.google.dk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=https://www.sosbornebyerne.dk/

                      2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIiK9WafPds to be with Jesus.

                      More than 500 million Christians worship God in this way, in a multitude of 2 billion Christians, mostly we call God Jesus, or at the same time when using the name Jesus think about God JHVH because in the Christian faith we believe God was present within the human body of Jesus, as God.
                      Colossians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
                      9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
                      King James Version (KJV) (giving credit to Charles Taze Russell and his teachings about the deity of Jesus Christ.)

                      So around the world we express our love to God in our worship ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYBzHhvqF_k

                      You will find the english version here.

                      http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jesusculture/howheloves.html

                      So, this is the teachings we also undergo. Expressing our love and hunger for God in our lives.

                      But Jeff, I am not against anyone. To me all can come, but as Christians we must come to Jesus.

                      YOu write:

                      ”If you find any Old Testament reference to a belief that the Jews expected a heavenly reward let me know”. quote end.

                      http://www.searchthescriptures.com/index.html Well, yes I can but this is how I understand the matter of the soul / our spirit from God within our human body. Now we are not conceived by the Holy Spirit like Jesus was. We are born ”normally”. But there is a scripture that goes this way: Ecclesiastes 12:7
                      ”Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.

                      http://www.searchthescriptures.com/newsletters/soul_spirit.htm

                      Jeff, I have no intentions of contradict anything you Bible Students say or do. I am happy to talk to you and that gives me a good feeling in my heart.

                    • ZionsHerald

                      Good afternoon Lincoln (rather evening for you in Denmark),

                      How did you choose Romania of all places to visit? I rather enjoyed my time there and I would have to say that my favorite moments were those that I spent in the villages of Romania and Moldova. I spent time on the various beaches there on the Black Sea as well, but nothing compares to the people in the village. The love of God, the love of Christ, and the brotherhood, was very stimulating to my faith. Even now many years after visiting there I am continually encouraged by remembering their examples of true Christians.

                      As I stated before, you are welcome to be here, as long as you are willing to dialog and respond to the points that are raised in response to what you’ve said instead of moving on to other passages or another completely different discussion.

                      What do you say? Lets have a conversation on the Scriptures as they are the Christian’s foundation.

                      The Reformer Martin Luther once commented, “Feelings come, and feelings go. Feelings are deceiving. But I’ll place my faith in the word of the Lord. Nothing else is worth believing.”

                      Now…onto my response to the two subjects you’ve brought up.

                      One thing I mentioned was that the Jews did not have a concept of a heavenly reward.

                      In response to my comment, ”If you find any Old Testament reference to a belief that the Jews expected a heavenly reward let me know” you replied with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

                      ”Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.

                      This is an interesting passage, although it doesn’t say very much, nor does it state what you are claiming here. Taking the passage pretty much as it reads, all it is saying is that the breath of the individual returns to its point of origin.

                      Job expands on this same thought where he even equates the spirit and breath in the 34th chapter of his book. In Job 34:14-15 where it says, “If he (God) gather unto himself his SPIRIT (ruach) and his BREATH (neshamah); all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust” (Job 34:14, 15).

                      You’ve raised a new subject on the passage of John 1:1.

                      John 1:1 ”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

                      We know from the context that the Word here was Jesus so I’ll substitute that in the text and paraphrase it as we go.

                      “In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God….”

                      Who is God here? Jesus obviously was not with himself. The context tells us how to identify “God” here. In John 1:6 he says “There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.” We know this was the Father because the 18th verse tells us that “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father…” Since I’ve let the context do the interpreting for me, I will now substitute Father in the place of God and continue with my paraphrase.

                      “In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.” (The Mezera paraphrase).

                      The traditional trinitarian ‘formula’ has each person in the godhead separate and distinct from the other persons. In other words, they believe there are three separate persons, all God. The Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit, but all three are God. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit, nor is the Spirt the Father or Son.

                      This is the reason that in Greek John makes a distinction between ‘theos’ and ‘ho theos” as John could not make Jesus the same person as the Father. There are some Oneness Pentecostals who equate the ‘persons’ but most trinitarians consider them heretics, and rightfully so.

                      Keeping the distinction between the Father and Son is important and it is the same issue found in Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus is called both “mighty God” and “everlasting Father.”

                      When I point this out to some trinitarian friends that I’ve had this discussion with they quickly recognize there is an issue with their interpretation of these texts because, as they affirm, Jesus the Son is not the Father.

                    • Lincoln

                      https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/396-was-jesus-created-by-god

                      Dear Jeff, Thank you for inviting me, but……..

                      I must try to answer you here;

                      I understand what you write to me, but I must say I have studied this with Jehovah`s witnesses for 40 years and still I must say when confronted, I am not sure I can prove much, but I can tell what I myself came to believe.

                      To me there are not tree different persons in the Godhead as we say. There is only one person (that is if we can use the word person of God). So I can only refer to Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God,the LORD is one! 

                      But we meet God in tree different appearances. God comes to us as the Father and as the Son and as the Holy Spirit. So, I cannot imagine God without his Spirit and I cannot imagine the Son not being within God.

                      I am not talking about a human God Jesus, but I am talking about Jesus dubble nature. As human Jesus was human and therefore ”the Son of God”, but in his Spirit he was God.

                      So, to understand the ”situation” about Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit, I must say I believe God came to us in the human body in our world to make himself manifest. So, within Jesus God was.

                      http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html

                      I will not try to convince you (or anyone else) about this, but I pray that ruach Adonai YHVH will tell you about it. The Holy Spirit.

                      What happens when God is presented Jesus. Well, everyone starts to worship God. Jews and Muslims and Christians and those who did not know and we become children of God.

                      Hebrew chapter 1:

                      6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
                      7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
                      8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
                      quote end.

                      As far as the soul is concerned, Leviticus: Chapter 26:11

                      And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul (nephesh) shall not abhor you.
                      (same in Jehovah`s Witnesses own Bible; soul/nephesh)
                      (same from Hebrew (Jewish Bible) origin)

                      (God`s ”soul” cannot die.)

                      13
                      I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

                      14
                      But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;15
                      And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul (nephesh) abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
                      (same in Jehovah’s Witnesses Bible; soul/nephesh)
                      (same from Hebrew (Jewish Bible) origin)

                      Again; I am not trying to prove anything, but what I understand I tell you. But I understand too, that God can chose to take my soul from me and therefore take my life everlasting. All souls belongs to God.

                      I will worship God and love God with all my heart and when God saved me I will always love God and thank for forgiveness.

        • Lincoln

          Dear Peter K.

          Just a editorial question. Why is my picture with my “family” not showing?

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Lincoln,

            Many visitors desire privacy and would be afraid that if they used their real name and/or picture that they would be reported to the JE Organization and be punished.

            • Lincoln

              I understand, but you have been using my picture all along, so why not continue?

              • Jacqueline (Bible student)

                Lincoln i dont think i have ever seen a picture on this site maybe you are thinking about facebook or a google run site, it will show your picture wherever you comment.

                • Lincoln

                  Dear Jacqueline, Thank you, but I will give you some examples I am thinking about. If you go back to 21st of august you will se my picture of my family on every comment from me. Just scroll down the page.

                  • Jacqueline (Bible student)

                    Lincoln I just found a photo of you on an august 21 comment. We didnt do this it must be the way you posted or device. So you seem to have the hang of it now. Fill out the form with your name and as you are already doing address the person you are speaking to by name. If I know the poster i sometimes alert them to a message left for them. Also your computer should hold your name once you type it in once. Take care

        • greg (Bible Student)

          Hi Peter.

          No, I hadn’t considered Quantum Entanglement –until now. What an intriguing line of thought to ponder. Thanks!! 🙂

          -greg

      • Lincoln

        Dear Greg,

        Thank you for your fine idea. No, I am not talking about physical “things” such as matter. The Bible clearly points out that the human body consist of two “things”. Matter and ruach.

        Now, if we “remove” matter such as killing the body, it does nothing harm to the soul, so don`t fear. Do you remember the scripture I am thinking about?

  • Lincoln

    Thank you very much. I understand the point. Not a bad idea.

    God bless.

  • Lincoln

    Dear Friends, Brothers and Sisters.

    I think it is too late unless you wish to open a case against Watchtower / J.F. Rutherford. You can say you are right, but you will never win a possible case / claim because legally he might have been right and therefore consecrate the Organisation by a New York board he could dismiss the Philadelphia board.

    Charles Taze Russell made a mistake (was not aware of that fact / was not fast enough and did have a clean mind wich J.F.Rutherford apparently did not)

    After some can declare: This was the will of Jehovah and therefore “things” went as they did. You can follow all the writings and buildings (San Diego Beth Sarim, 2 golden 16 cylindere Cadilacs and tons of whisky).

    Ever since then, “things” has gone in the direction of Jehovah`s Witnesses and to day apparently you do not agree with them. You stay with the “teachings” from Charles Taze Russell, but I do not think you will create another “Society” or another “Little Flock” or another Great Claud and so on.

    These thins are not to “handle” to day since so much has happened ever since then.

    What you can do and what I can do is to find a place in this world where we can worship God. As I already have written to you, to worship God you must find out the deeper truth about God; the revelation about God in the name Jesus.

    I do not know what your hope is. Everlasting life on earth? Total World power?

    God bless you

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Lincoln, this website is written so a witness can understand what happened. It does not seek to convert but just state information. It is used by many groups of xjw as source material. One must find their way with a personal relationship with God, but sometimes they need a resting place of peace as they go on this journey, we try to help along with others. Then they steady themselves and start running.
      No man is an island, even Jesus met with those that believed in the new message his father sent him. Afterward they met together to encourage, discuss and spread this divine deliverance plan of God. We encourage small groups to meet together and discuss scripture. We provide a link to a Sunday meeting via internet and Wednesday study group and are there for any that come on. We don’t own buildings nor have places for any to meet. We meet in homes and hold conventions to discuss ideas and encourage. We are all humans and need to associate and some go every Sunday so others have something to tune in to.
      Some never attend conventions, there is no coercion it is a brotherhood. We don’t ritualistically attend meetings. Meetings are for people not people for the meetings. Witnesses will hold a meeting as worship, one little group heard of their member in hospital and struck out running. An xJw complained, thinking a meeting is the important thing. One brother complained because on Wednesday we talk and care about each other first and listen to the lives and what is going on. Each Bible student class determine it’s own schedule, we don’t have anyone you can report us to, we are equal in the body of Christ. We use phone internet and personal meetings to associate and encourage, we are all of the human race and humans band together in common causes. In this case it is Christianity. No I am not a follower of Charles Taze Russell, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. The average person coming here are familiar with what Br. Russell and the early Bible students taught and we present it so they can see where it went wrong. No one religion man, woman or child has it all right. Many of other religions and Bible societies laid the foundation we build on and no doubt will receive a heavenly reward for it.
      We believe in 2 salvations. Life in heaven as Jesus held out to all Christians and life on the earth for survivors of the tribulation and all resurrected mankind from Adam onward. I hope I addressed some of your questions the best I can. We are a non denominational association of Bible students. Take Care, Jacqueline

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