Let’s see what the JW Organization itself says about this question.
“The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ.” Watchtower 2010 Sep 15 p.23
“A mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and the faithful and discreet slave.” (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p. 14).
“By submitting to the slave class, Gods people also show their subjection to the Master, Jesus Christ.”(Watchtower 2002 10/1 p. 19)
“This governing body is the administrative part of a ‘faithful and discreet slave’ or ‘steward’ class concerning which Jesus promised: ‘His master . . . will appoint him over all his belongings.’ (Matt. 24:45-47; Luke 12:42-44) So, recognition of that governing body and its place in Gods theocratic arrangement of things is necessary for submission to the headship of Gods Son.” (w72 12/15 p. 755)
Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. – (W 4-1-2007, p.24. par.12)
Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established. (KM 11/1990, par.1)
Those desiring salvation must make for God’s organization, and find entrance into it and remain there permanently (W 10-1-1952, p.603)
We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval” (W 7-15-13, p.24, simplified version) It’s the highlighted box on the upper left hand column, p.24. Also on page 21 of the same issue: 17 But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave
*** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep ***
But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.)—
July, 2013 study issue: “2 The timely spiritual food we receive is proof that Jesus, the Head of the congregation, is keeping his promise to feed us. Through whom is he doing so? When giving the sign of his presence, Jesus said that he would use “the faithful and discreet slave” to give “food at the proper time” to his domestics. * (Read Matthew 24:45-47.) That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel.—Matt. 4:4; John 17:3.”
Dear Friends, current witnesses. We need your help. There is great controversy coming in from family that are witnesses on shunning. I am getting calls and emails about these conversations.
It seems there was a talk given on shunning last week and there is a part two being given this week.
Could someone that actually still go to the kingdom hall give us a summary of these talks.
It will help us understand the new rules so that we don’t offend our witness relatives.
It seems each of them are saying different things about what the new shunning laws are.
I understand is a two part talk. Thank you very much
This is a conversation I am having with a brother that associates with the witnesses and I felt this is the point that more persons would benefit if we posted his reasons and the reason of many witnesses as to why they believe the witnesses is the true religion. Let’s break down some of the points to examine.
Here is a list of things that convinced me that JWs were the truth
1) They are the only people preaching the kingdom door 2 door
2) They are the ones who come and look for you, lets face it I only found out about the IBSA because I heard there was a large split up after Russell died, but I had to search the internet for people with similar beliefs, because mostly every other denomination taught trinity, immortal soul and hellfire.
3) They are the only people who bear Jehovah’s name and are the only people who use it constantly
4) They are the most hated people
5) It is hard to remain a witness
6) They are separate from the world(no wars, holidays, politics etc.)
7) The watchtower and Awake magazines are the most widely printed publications in the world
8) They translate literature in over 700 languages
9) There is negative information about them all over the internet
10) They are persecuted
11) They always say they are the only ones who practice true love among themselves
12) They have literature for certain people. Literature designed for muslims, another for jews, another for atheists, another for hindus etc.
I will comment on a few.
(1) Yes, door to door is targeted witnessing and the early Christians went House to house not in a row but wherever there was interest. Witnesses are known for that. Other religions are much larger however where people like their message and go to them and they use many methods to spread the good news. There is no scripture in the bible that identifies door to door as a sign of particular favor. Acts 20:20 doesn’t mention it, this is house to house visiting brothers in their homes.
(2) God calls his people and you can get to God through Jesus in prayer and he does answer. Many ministers are in hospitals and missionaries have died in Africa and many countries. Witnesses is a small group and does it’s part to spread the word, but not the only one.
(3)The name Jehovah was in use long before the witnesses were founded in 1931. That is how Rutherford got it. No one should carry such a Holy name on them even criminals, child molesters, thief and drug addicts will say they are a Jehovah witnesses and makes the name of God look bad. Little children that don’t even know what God is about says they are a Jehovah witness. That name is to Holy to just throw around lightly. That is my opinion.
(4) Muslims are hated and in Russia the witnesses are not treated any worse than the baptist and the muslim. Nobody hates the witnesses, they hold themselves up in a position where they create controversy to get noticed and sacrifice the members to receive the insults from the governing body decisions. (ie) women and children die from lack of transfusion; Germany persecuted witnesses not for religious beliefs but Rutherford wrote Hitler a letter saying he was on his side but when he started seizing property he ordered the brothers to rise up against Hitler, and other edicts that put them in the limelight to be noticed.
(5) If one was seeking God thru Christ instead of trying to obey all the additional rules and regulations put on witnesses it wouldn’t be hard.
Yes it is hard to follow the rules of the seven men they are indeed hard task masters. Jesus’ load however is light and loving. Following men is hard, I admit.
(6)There were quite a few groups before Rutherford spoke up that were and are conscientious objectors. Jehovah celebrated Jesus birth with angels sing. Job’s children celebrated birthdays. Joseph was blessed by being in the prison with a man that was exonerated on a birthday and he remembered him. Not celebrating holidays doesn’t make a person holy, they are just a person that doesn’t celebrate and really shouldn’t make an issue of it. Many people do and don’t do things that have nothing to do with whether or not they love God.
(7) That simply is not a true statement. In fact they have cut the magazines down because often the magazines were sitting in out homes collecting dust but since they made us pay for them first, it didn’t matter to them. The government outlawed that practice of making us pay for the mags first. Life tells us that with all the magazines and printings that it is unsound to believe that statement made by the witnesses.
(8) That might be true. If fact most Christian religions and Bible publishing house even the Gideons have put the Bible in most languages of the world. Literature however is not the Bible that is really all we need. Most of the world don’t read witness literature in those over 700 languages but they do read the Bible.
(9)That is the truth. They are being exposed because they target people at their homes and pedophiles are among them in great numbers so this is allowed by God so people won’t think they are his witnesses, but just men using his name.
(10)In some nations they and ALL Christian religions are persecuted. The witnesses are not any more persecuted than any other Christian. Look up Russia and the Muslim nations how they behead Christians and they aren’t necessarily witnesses in fact probably not.
(11)Yes they do say they love each other but teach hatred of anyone that chooses to leave off serving their organization and their 7 man governing body. They teach a parent to hate their own children if they stop worshiping the governing body and have stopped being loyal to an organization of greedy rich men.
(12) All religions have that, so they are not distinquished in that manner. Most persons have the Bible itself in their language.
Witnesses are like any other religion trying to worship in the way they feel is best.
It should not be necessary to teach hatred of other Christian religions for they are not the enemy of Christ. They along with witnesses and all of mankind will eventually get the entire truth in the Millennium. Mankind will survive armageddon and the great time of trouble just like witnesses and come through under the rule of Christ and truly learn love.
This is just how I see this, maybe others have a different opinion on these points but they are what most witnesses feel makes them better than other religions and they feel these things make them Christians.
I’m thinking you about covered it, Jacqueline. The only thing I’d like to add is this:
Nothing makes a better camouflage for errors (and lies) than a substantial amount of “truth”.
Having given it some more thought, it occurs to me that a 13th point might be added.
13) They try to hold to very high standards of excellence in accord with scriptures.
I’d respond by saying:
It’s a noble intention to work at improving oneself and one’s character, always working to grow and polish one’s conscience. The problem lies in splitting hairs and counting out oats. The more one focuses in on the minutiae, the more one loses one’s perspective and follows the path of the Pharisees who strained out gnats but gulped down camels, and who forever obsessed about the tiny splinters in the eyes of others, but never removed the rafters from their own eyes. They’ve become obsessed with the letter of the law and totally forgotten there is a spirit behind the law.
To me it doesn’t take much to ruin something otherwise beautiful. “Look! I made you this lovely cake and I only peed in it a little bit!” Who wants it now? Not me!
Truth is now of secondary importance. The “image” of having high-standards (that Pharisee-like SHOW of pseudo-righteousness) must be maintained above all else. Maintaining that superior image takes precedence over the actual standards. Truth has been sought in claim, but real truth is inconvenient, undesirable, a sham. Anyone who questions that show of righteousness, or questions the sham-truth, or questions the letter of the law must be vilified and exterminated.
There’s another dangerous condition that develops out of this kind of scrupulosity and I see it as intimately interwoven with #11, the belief that they have an outstanding attitude of “true” love, and are exemplary in their display of said loving attitudes.
Personally, I don’t like their definition of Love. They believe that shame is a loving thing to impose on others. They believe that hurting people and threatening to hurt people isn’t violent, but Godly. They believe that terror tactics and threats are the way to make the world a better place.
If you ask any JW what would make life wonderful, their answer would be, “Kill billions of people.” What an effective, powerful, and sick education they’ve been handed, and then consumed. I fail to see any difference between that kind of attitudinal love and the failure of love the Nazi’s demonstrated in pursuing their “Final Solution” by the mass extermination of millions.
Yes, JW’s might have a form of love, and they might even claim to love their enemies, but it seems to me that they love their enemy-images even more. Put differently, they love to hate those who they do not (can not) understand. They love to sacrifice others to their God of Destruction rather than extend compassion and mercy to lepers.
To me they really fulfil the scripture in 2 Timothy 3:5 in that they “maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power.” (New English Translation) The New Living Translation says it this way: “They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly.” (Compare Romans chapter 12)
It seems to me that one problem at the root of it all is that since the time of Rutherford, JWs have been taught to believe that everyone’s hearts are evil, even their own, and are therefore not to be trusted. But I ask this: What does the Bible tell us that Jehovah looks at when he judges a person? Is it not their heart? So by their absurd teachings they are in effect saying that while a person’s heart tells Jehovah the truth about that person, that same heart only tells that person lies.
How does that make any sense?
And so they set out to suppress emotion, deaden the heart, and then somehow claim to still be able to love and have mercy and compassion? It’s not possible to shut off one’s feelings and then still have feelings. They really do shut the door of their tender compassions. (2 Corinthians 6:12; 1 John 3:17) They become, it seems to me, either depressed (hateful towards themselves) or cold, callous, critical, judgmental, cruel (hateful towards others). Some even manage to find sufficient energy to hate both themselves and others. Then they are able to be particularly effective at hurting, blaming, and shaming others.
I suppose I might have slipped into rant mode. OK, turning rant mode off, now.
Anyway, the reality is that most of the JW’s I know are simply having most matters of conscience dictated to them. So, I don’t hate them. I have compassion for them. I freely forgive their ignorance, especially when it’s a learned ignorance. I have pity for them, seeing that they are sheep left in the care of wolves and brutally, cruel shepherds. (Colossians 3:12)
They’ve been convinced that God is ONLY interested in UNCONDITIONAL OBEDIENCE and nothing less. As a result they’ve totally nullified God’s plan, treated God’s works with contempt and disdain, and given credence to Satan’s Lie that God was really stupid to give man Free Will and then to have confidence in His own creations and works. They’re actions are spiraling out of control because there simply isn’t any real love in them that would otherwise temper their actions and perceptions.
Instead, they’re simply running the scripts they’ve been handed. They’ve been turned into cold, unfeeling, emotionless zombies, ice-cold calculators, computer programs running their lines of code. And they teach that such was God’s plan and intention for us from the beginning. Their lack of love leaves them dangerous, given to fear, paranoia, reactivity, and justifications of their lovelessness, rather than really understanding what it means to live, and what it means to love their neighbor *as themselves*. With a really perverted sense of self love, it’s no wonder the love they show others is also perverted, brutal and painful, and in my opinion, God-Dishonoring.
It terrifies me think that they proudly wear the hatred of others as a merit badge, interpreting the amount of hatedness they accumulate as proof that God’s on their side.
Read Jeremiah. That’s what the nation of Israel believed back in his day, too.
Long ago I learned the crucial difference between believing God was on my side, and hoping that I’m on His side.
I wouldnt say any of those things listed would give evidence to being “The True Religion”…
Most languages published and most magazines printed! Could 1st century Christians lay claim to any of those things? No, but that doesnt take away the fact they were spirit lead…
How about the fact that every decade and personality change of the GB the teachings change. So what was published before and called new light appears to be nothing more than just opinion and interpretation that was wrong! Would that indicate Gods spirit taking the lead? No
Those arguments are the same ones a number of religious groups have laid claims to over the past 2,000 years since Jesus day..
To Greg and Bret, I agree with your points. That is why I suggested that the poster let me take it to the site as many feel the same way the poster does, that these and some other good points you brought out are evidence of God’s favor only to them. Most of what they say isn’t true. They quoted one man as saying the New World Translation is the most scholarly translation. This man never said that when someone went to him.
I was just in a long conversation with Barbara Anderson and we know so many pedophile cases that are known many decades before by the organization, yet this relationship that only they have with God didn’t advise them properly. This connection that they only have can’t get what they believe correct.
With all the knowledge out there now, persons remaining are there because they like it and maybe it is what they feel is a good organization. Many governments are waking up to the atrocities of this man made organization.
I am still committed to help any that have decided to come out if I can and God willing. Things are really worse than we know on the pedophile thing. It is bad!
To Anonymous;
Thank you for those verses, am looking up right now. At the one verse Is 66:17, can see what you mean, but thought Is. 26:14 was what you might have meant. Is 26:14, “They are dead: they will not live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them To annihilate them and destroy all mention of them.”
And I accidently turned to Is 29 at first and saw this. 29:8,10, “So it will happen with the crowd with the crowd of all nations…For Jehovah has poured a spirit of deep sleep on you.”
So my question to you Anonymous is. Why would Paul warn members of the little flock back then, with words, that as they suffer by wicked people God will get even with them during the 1,000 year reign of his son?
I hope I am not the only one who thinks that sounds weird. So when Paul wrote this, “Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay’ says Jehovah.”
When ever I read , it is written I think of Jesus saying that when he referred to the Old Testament. So please consider these in your answer. Lev. 19:18; De.32:35 “‘You must not take vengeance nor hold a grudge against the sons of your people.'” and, “Vengeance is mine, and retribution, At the appointed time when their foot slips, For the day od their disaster is near, And what awaits them will come quickly.'”
Do you really think when this strong spiritual food was given to the people 3,500 years ago they looked at each other and said, we can do what ever because that will happen during the 1,000 years, then I will be good?
I think Isa. 65:20 explains that some who refuse to appreciate God’s loving law during the kingdom period will indeed die before the little season. “No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!” (New Living Translation is a very helpful translation for this scripture.)
To Brettstone;
Do all the bad at the end of the 1,000 years get thrown in the lake of fire?
Or do some find that lake of fire before the 1,000s start?
Yes some do find the 2nd death before the end of the 1,000 yrs…
Isa 26:9,10
Isa 66:17
Brettstone…..I too was a JW elder sum time ago.Then I Stepped Down. My whole life I was raised in the Faith. I commend u for your depth of researching Gods Word despite the huge risk of asking questions.This is not really allowed.All must be of the same hive mind.Respond & think the same & not research outside the box or else….I’ve recently, over the last few months, been associating with the Bible Students & have learned more of the precious meaning of scripture than all my 40yrs in JW.I still am a JW but hav merely been fading.I’ve kept in contact with sum.I pray to Jehovah more now than ever,read the Bible & cannot believe how he answers me.Ive always learned that Jesus true disciples would b recognized by their love.Ive witnessed less & less of that & wondered why.By their fruits you will recognize them.Being with these Bible Students I feel like i’m with Jehovahs sheep.Genuine persons that ive felt a connection with finally. Please continue to ask questions & please be careful if u know what I mean.
Dundee- thanks for your thoughts! I have thought out of the box for some time now. And my conscious bothered me about many teachings and therefore I resigned. I’m reading the scriptures more and more and especially for myself instead of following Ministry school Bk study and so forth. I am careful as I have all my family in the org now which I brought in over the last 20yrs and a son in Bethel. I appreciate your concern and keep up the faith brother…
Brettstone…I too would think outside the box.However when I’d ask questions,tactfully, I have received many threats throughout the years. When I served as an elder, I poured my whole soul into the responsibility to care for Jehovah’s Sheep as I am certain you did as well. When I’d speak, I carefully & diligintly prayed for Jehovah to give me the right words to reach deep into peoples hearts. I knew this came from God & not from my own abilities. This made my fellow elders envious & they took vengeance in many clever ways which eventually got me physically ill from the stress. I then asked to Step Aside.They were more than pleased! Then they got even with me when I was going through a bitter divorce & I begged them for assistance. My wife was violent, crafty, manipulative, & had no problem bribing & cleverly becoming best friends with their wives. This got her the authority to abandon the family multiple times & cheat on me.I accumulated court discovery of which thankfully the worldly judge saw thru her & ordered her out my home, awarding me a divorce. But my spiritual brothers delibertly ignored&refused to look at the documents, the court transcripts,etc. When I sat with them as a fellow elder I saw something in the back rooms when the door was closed. They’d make fun of the friends, discuss things of a very private nature, & crack up laughing about the flock. They’d make fun of sinners, taunt them to try & rile them up, to get something on them to expel them. If someone wanted reinstatement they’d ignore their pleas.They’d be quick to accuse someone of apostasy before an actual judicial inquiry/committee. Even bear false testimony & then others would raise their hand & say they’ll be on board. I saw them stalk & even be physically abusive. When I’d serve on a judicial committee, I would be in tears afterwards through out a couple weeks recalling how the other 2 elders would treat the individual. It wasn’t a readjustment for the sinner. It would antagonize them to end it all, my observation. Though it was a beautiful thing to serve the needs of the friends, serving with that body was gruelsome. So for my survival I felt I needed to step aside before my body gives out. When reading the flock book it scared me how many rules & regulations,how much the elders needed to police the friends.I understood the major sins of course were obvious,& was important to address those things, but there were sooooo many other things & how to handle them it became confusing for me. But I was submissive to the direction,meek & humble. But then my divorce came & all left my side. I went to another hall. But then the elders would reveal confidential things to me about others,make fun of when the friends were in trouble,tell their wives everything infront of me in service,complain about having to sit on another elders meeting,how they treat those that want to be reinstated making them jump through hoops,saying that they are full of drama with their tears, & how they don’t believe them all, that they should never have gotten in trouble in the first place,that they make them wait like forever to come back in. Just such a lack of compassion,mercy & love. It made me depressed. I slowed down attending but continued to study on my own with prayerful attidude. One parent disowned me right before my arrival into the Bible Students because of a lack of attendance at JW. But I remember the scripture in Mark when we suffer loss of family, we gain it back a hundredfold.I’ve found that in the Bible Students. Almost immediately one elder became my spiritual father. Jehovah has seen my affliction,my sadness & carries me. I see your situation is not an easy one either. On one hand I commend u for multiplying the Lords talents that he gave but now that you’re in a different direction with your ability to reason on the scriptures, the family can most certainly deliver you up. Perhaps as time moves on in this system, along with your prayers, & I will add my prayers to your situation, perhaps Jehovah might awaken them & they may come to have your questions or similar. Many yrs ago I would NEVER research scripture on my own,it wasn’t allowed. I always questioned why.Truth should stand up against anything, if it was infact truth. But I have had intense tribulation from my brothers, who actually ripped apart my family life.I was in a severe accident & wondered what that meant.So I went back to the meetings & there was no empathy.No help.No Christlike love among the majority. It made me pray harder. I came into contact with Brother Peter & Sister Jacqueline. They have helped me in ways It would take too long to express.They’ve put me in contact with a local congregation.A local elder was quick to provide spiritual insight & gave me the Studies in the Scriptures volumes. I now understand why I experienced ALL my circumstances that are too numerous.I feel I was called out, unplugged from the matrix,& called into the Bible Students. Those Studies in the Scripture volumes are chock full of scriptures explaining the Bible, just like our Insight Volumes, but much much better my dear brother. I finally feel a purpose in life. I still have contact with the jw friends. Many are insensitive, but I am grateful when Jehovah sends me the genuine thoughtful ones that are just such good souls. I urge you to get some of the studies in the scriptures volumes & if you could get to a convention. I felt like I’ve come home. My soul is refreshed when I’m with the Brethren in person.We are of like mind.The way they pray & explain the scriptures. The way they during their meeting pray by name for us individually who are having severe trials, melts my heart. It is enlightening! I can tell you are definitely a very spiritual man, a deep thinker, & no doubt was a wonderful elder & servant. Pray,Pray,Pray for the answers you desire. Brother Peter & Sister Jacqueline are very knowledgable of the scriptures.Their can be a nice interchange as I can see you’ve been benefiting from. This web-site has helped me immensily as I’m confident Jehovah is allowing this to help sincere worshipers of Him as you & I are indeed lovers of His Word…
I appreciate your kind words brother.. I too dealt with some over bearing fellow Elders and had some pretty bad experiences myself even with a CO, and that was finally the last straw for my time as an Elder… Searching the deeper things of God is my love.. And I plan on reading the volumes soon.
My brother,
I can certainly hav empathy 4 u.I know what it feels like to go through those kinds of things.In prayer I always asked Jehovah why?? I understood He is not causing it but Allowing it & thru the trial we develop character.Its also like a fire was lit under our feet to get us moving in a different direction than we are.i loved being a JW with All my strength & it was a protection for many years of my life until 1 of my parents abandoned my family.Then I saw things.I believe Jehovah was revealing things.I believe he calls people out.Then after supplications, found this Web site.Then things started 2 make sense.You’ll learn that u had 2 go thru your stuff to get u where u are now.Your close relationship with Jehovah & Jesus will only get better.Pay particular attention 2 the answers Jehovah is giving u in Your petitions.He cares very deeply 4 u.I added u in my prayers to help keep u safe, to help u find answers, to help your family that r still jw, etc. For me I was terrified inside to make a change or to ask others the meanings of scripture.After prayer & finding this website, I sent a message to those operating this along with purchasing a lot of dvds & the book on Brother Russell 2 learn who he was & how he preached God’s Word zealously from the Chicago Bible Students.Sister Jacqueline wrote me words that were so refreshing!With a leap of Faith I expressed my unique circumstances & trials.She put me in contact with Brother Peter who I can honestly say is like a fleshly brother.We speak atleast 3x a week on the cell phone.He fills the void in my heart.I enjoy Bible Conversations very much like u.Then he started a new job & so referred me to a local elder, who immediately came over with his wife.There was an immediate connection.They had an event & drove my family & I to the location.There they had a talk on Ezekiels Temple.It was a jaw dropping discussion.The research these Bible Students put into their assignments…The genuine sincerity, the sisters were humble & submissive wearing their headcoverings & not like our jw sisters.i made friends.Ive grown very close to this elder & his wife.He’s like a spiritual Father to me.Then I attended meetings.The elder gave me all the Volumes & sum other books.Even went 2 one day of a 2 day convention.I was in shock!! Feels like the Truth.I caregive sum In my family so I’m limited in wat I can do.Yet Jehovah gives me so many opportunities 2 preach to others.I was able to help sum thru a trial recently, who used 2 study with jw but the last couple that studied with them were corrupt, partially responsible 4 my divorce along with their friends.So it turned them off to it & stopped & now would like 2 visit my Congregation or (Ecclesia) Greek word for church.i speak more now about God than b4.Thats just a summary of wat I did.I finally have meaning in my life thanks to the Lord.I Trust Jehovah will teach you here & bless u. Agape my brother…
Brettstone
Hi there,thought i would say hello,interesting questions you have been asking.
I have been doing a little research on some of the things mentioned.Mat 24:31 and the Great Trumpet is something i am pondering on at present, whether it has relation to the seventh trumpet,or is independent of it.
The hosts seem very friendly and helpful, very refreshing.
May Jehovah bless you
To Sun;
When people rejected Moses and Aaron, Jehovah told them, it is not you they are rejecting, it is me Jehovah God. Ex. 16:8
So ask yourself, Noah and seven others spared. The rest destroyed. Gen. 6:9 Refers to Noah as being faultless. The Israelites were told to be faultless. Deuteronomy 18:13 Mat. 5:48 tells followers to be perfect.
Perfect, faultless, and blameless by people who are sinners. Do you agree, it is a hard thing to do? But Noah did it, Moses and Aaron did it.
Why would anyone not think God would use people to carry out his purpose? Ps 115:3, “Our God is in the heavens; He does what ever he pleases.”
Bottom line, all the people destroyed at the flood didn’t want to listen to the preacher Noah, the unfaithful Israelites didn’t want to listen to Moses and Aaron, and today people say I won’t listen to whoever they want.
But as the earth is falling apart, remember Rev. 11:18, and remember Ps 115:3, God will do what he wants.
I think that is best to recommend to all honest hearted ones between Jehovahs witnesses to study the material from the 5 chapter of the Volume 6. Indeed excellent material for christian ponderings and thought.
Miroslav – Thanks! Great suggestions. For any interested, here is the link: http://www.htdbv8.com/Volume6/V6_05.htm
Peter K- greetings.. I have a question for you! I am a JW 19yrs recently resigned as an Elder after 12 yrs and 4yrs ministerial servant. I have a question and did not know how to send you a question without picking up on a recent post of yours. In fact I have a couple questions for you.
#1. I am researching the “Ransom for all” which has long been a belief I have held even as a JW. But how would you explain the scripture at 2Thes 2:6-10? It appears that this is speaking of the Time of Christ arrival Matt 24:29-31. I am assuming it is to be understood that this applies to Christ 1,000 yr reign. But please scriptural reasoning behind it.!
I recognize Zechariah 14:16-18 is support to the fact others will survive “The Great Day” or Armegedon! As well without having to be resurected and there are other scriptures to support I do admit.
#2. I recognize that Matt 24:31 is clear in describing the resurection of remaining living anointed ones at his arrival, but Bible Students as well as JW hold same belief that during Christ parousia those who have already died are resurrected as well as those who die during his ongoing presence. BS 1874, JW 1914
But I do believe the scriptures clearly teach that during this great trumpet blast those who died will rise first followed by the those who are remaining. But my question is the timing.
There are 3 scriptures that mention this trumpet blast and it is clear that 1Thes 4:16 and 1Cor 15:52 are the same trumpet blast. But what about Matt 24:31? To me it appears it is the same trumpet blast and if so would put the resurection of those who have died as yet future at Christ arrival following the Great Tribulation and here is why. At 1Cor 15:52 it is called the “LAST” trumpet and if this is literal then there would be none after it if it is the last! Therefore the trumpet blast that occurs at Matt 24:31 would have to be the same trumpet blast since the LAST trumpet blast begins the resurection of those who already fell asleep in death followed by the remaining who are still alive.
I realized that the order is those who are asleep then followed by those who are alive and living as Paul stated.
But Last Trumpet to me means none to follow! So therefore it would have to be the same as the one Christ mentioned at Matt 24:31, clear there it does not mention wether or not it is the dead or living that are gathered but simply those who belong to Christ from the four winds Rev 7:1-4.
#3. Do you know or someone else by chance when the WBTS left the Ransom for all doctrine? Was it during Rutherfords “Rule”? I have tried to research but unable to locate.
Peter K- one more Question!
I realize the BS have no governing body. But how would you explain what took place at Acts 15 and 16. Where the older men and Apostles in Jerusalem appeared to act as a governing body and they sent those decrees that were decided upon to the congregations and it was received and accepted. Thus indicating that those in Jerusalem acted as a governing body. Did not Bro Russell decide some beliefs such as “To us the scriptures clearly teach” I think was often stated in the WT and was like wise accepted!
Peter clearly 1Cor 13:9 shows we have partial Knowledge and it will only be complete when Christ arrives, so if new knowledge is discovered before Christ arrives would all Bible Students submit to it? And who would dispense it?
Brettstone – You asked how would I explain Acts 15 & 16 in light of the Governing Body. I really do not believe these chapters teach that the Apostles were a governing body. If the Apostles governed, it was by advice and example, not by dictates. When the Apostles gave their advice to the Gentile brethren, what consequences were there for brethren who did not go along? None that we know of. When else did the Apostles ever convene for such a meeting to state their united opinion to the Gentiles? None that we know of. We can see what we want in scriptures. Catholics read that Jesus told Peter “upon this rock I will build my Church” and to them this is irrefutable proof that Jesus set up an arrangements of consecutive Popes. Russell’s To us the scriptures clearly teach” was the consensus of the Bible Students then. There was no penalty for disagreeing other than that brethren might not think you were doctrinally qualified to vote for you as an elder.
You asked, “if new knowledge is discovered before Christ arrives would all Bible Students submit to it?” With Bible Students, each brother and sister make their own decisions. It is our common beliefs that hold us together. We do believe Jesus returned has invisibly returned.
@Brettstone re the GB in Jerusalem.
If you read through the book of Acts in particular,and take note of the assignments of the different apostles,you will see that only once is a decision made in Jerusalem,all the other assignments come from the group that is located in Antioch,if there was a GB,then it was in Antioch,Paul in particular always reports back to the elders in Antioch,he begins his tours there,Jews came from Jerusalem to debate with Paul,Peter and Barnabas in Antioch first,the place that was the centre back then was Antioch not Jerusalem,yet they never seem to get a mention.
The only person that came out of Jerusalem to advise Paul was a prophet named Agabus,he it seems was not part of the group in Jerusalem ,but was sent twice to Paul “under the power of the Holy Spirit”not with instructions from a governing body-check it out.
Wild Olive like you I have wondered for decades why no one see that Acts:15 22 actually says: They sent them to Antioch. The brothers from Jerusalem had caused the problem for the Antioch brothers so that why they went first to Jerusalem cause Jerusalem was CAUSING THE PROBLEM! In witnesses language it was the so called governing body area brothers going about causing hardship. So they said hey Jerusalem brothers what is this you guys are teaching?
Notice also Jerusalem brothers included elders, apostles and the whole church, which would make women also a part of the witness so called governing body.
The governing body of Jehovah witnesses take one scripture and built a doctrine just as they took the one scripture on how gentiles were to consider the Jewish brothers and not use blood the way gentiles did so it would not be offensive. I used to wonder if I was crazy or not to see this.
The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.
Leaders among the brothers mean there are prominent, respected brothers but not a governing body that made laws and rules in addition to the bible.
That is just how I have seen it since I learned there was a governing body about 2001. Before that I didn’t realize and I started looking for a way out.
George Miller from a facebook pagedjust posted this from their discussion: Wish we had this translation earlier:
Matthew 23:1-12 (NCV) “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his followers, 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees have the authority to tell you what the law of Moses says. 3 … but their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they themselves don’t do them. 4 They make strict rules and try to force people to obey them, but they are unwilling to help those who struggle under the weight of their rules.
5 “They do good things so that other people will see them. 7 They love people to greet them with respect in the marketplaces [Kingdom Hall and Conventions], and they love to have people call them ‘Teacher.’ [Elder or Overseer]
10 And you should not be called ‘Master,’ [Governing Body] because you have only one Master, the Christ. 11 Whoever is your servant is the greatest among you. 12 Whoever makes himself great will be made humble. Whoever makes himself humble will be made great.”
Yes Jaqueline the GB have taken one small portion of scripture and turned it into a monster,what is it anyway with this obsession of being “the only ones God is using “, the whole Bible as we have it was collected and canonised by the Catholic Church,did God use them ?
Apparently around 200 ad there were 52 gospel accounts,the Catholic Church decided that only 4 were authentic.Have they in fact preserved truth? Are they the faithful and discreet slave?(tongue in cheek) lol.
I would certainly agree with that..
Brettstone and Wild Olive – Let me add that if the Holy Spirit has taught you something, if I am humble, I can learn from you. Hence, this is how the Holy Spirit works in the body of Christ (1 Cor 12).
Ephesians 4:16 (ESV)
“From whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”
Avoiding the influence of people is impossible unless we become an island.
The extreme of interdependent thinking is bad since you are simply accepting what your denominational Church teaches.
The extreme of independent thinking is bad because then you refuse to learn from others.
There needs to be an honest balance of independent and interdependent thinking, all the while testing each teaching against the scriptures for confirmation or rejection.
1 John 4:1 (ESV)
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
Some of the enemies of honest investigation include pride, laziness, a sectarian spirit and placing greater faith in men or human organizations than in the Bible.
I agree with that Peter, very well said 🙂 Yes we can certainly learn from others if what they say is in line scriptually, but above all else we must always pray to our Father in Heaven for understanding, I know this to be true & I have experienced it working for me on many occasions.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – Scriptures that come to mind that verify your experience include:
James 1:5-8 (NASB)
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”
1 John 5:14 (KJV)
“And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:”
Luke 11:9-13 NASB
“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Hi Peter, thankyou for your reply with those greaat scriptures, yes ‘Luke 11:9-13’ is one of my faves.
Very well said Peter
Brettstone,the way any “new doctrine” should become known is through the Holy Spirit,not through any human.
Brettstone – It’s great to have you on our website. I can see that you are a deep and honest student of the Bible. Some of your questions are too deep to answer in a few sentences. I think the best approach for question #1 is to provide you with links that I hope will help to answer your questuons.
2 Thess 2:6-10
http://christiantrumpetsounding.com/Antichrist/Antichrist%20Bklt/ant2_apostles.htm
Matt 24:29-31
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/09/01/our-lords-great-prophecy-jesus-second-presence/
Peter- thanks for your reply. I wrote the wrong scripture in question #1, it should have been 2 Thes 1:6-10 with regards to the question about the “Ransom for all”. Here it speak of those undergoing eternal destruction during the arrival of Christ. Hard to wrap my head around it and ransom for all?
But I did enjoy the article about the “man of lawless”.
Brettstone – At first that is what I thought you meant and responded to that, then withdrew the response when I thought I had the wrong scripture. Glad I saved it. Here it is.
2 Thess 1 is a Bible passage that talks about “everlasting” destruction. Does it prove that those who reject the Gospel message now may have no hope of future life? Does it apply to an everlasting destruction for those who die in Armageddon.
Let’s read…
2 Thes 1 (NWT) – “6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU.”
This passage DOES speak about “everlasting destruction.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses Organization applies this to the Armageddon destruction and they see no future hope for those destroyed.
Yet we find a problem with this view is found in verse 6. Let’s read it again.
2 Thes 1:6 (NWT) “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU,”
How can God repay tribulation to those who made tribulation for the brethren in Thessalonica? They must first be resurrected from the dead; otherwise there would be no way for them to receive tribulation. Therefore this is not referring to second death. Rather, this tribulation is the necessary disciplining and chastening to bring about repentance and reform.
Notice it is those in verse 8 who “do not obey” that in verse 9 receive the “judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.” When? Verse 10 says that it will happen “in that Day.” It is during the 1,000 year Judgment Day that the disobedient wicked will be eternally destroyed.
Acts 3:23 (NWT) says, “Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”
So after Armageddon, for the balance of the 1,000 years, those who resist the peaceable kingdom and refuse to obey will be eternally destroyed at that time.
The next passage we will look at indicates that during these 1,000 years, when the New Heavens and Earth are being set up, that the wicked will be given up to 100 years to reform before being destroyed.
Isaiah 65 (Amplified)
17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth…
20 …the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies when only a hundred years old shall be thought only a child, cut off because he is accursed.”
Those who are children in spiritual development, who do not progress in righteousness and who willfully oppose Jehovah’s kingdom, will be given no more than 100 years before they are permanently cut off in the second death.
1 Tim 2:4 (NWT) tells us that God “ who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
2 Pet 3:9 (NWT) “Jehovah… is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”
Knowing that Jehovah’s justice is tempered with love and patience, we can have confidence that Jehovah will give every person and complete, patient and generous opportunity to repent and obey.
So during the peaceable kingdom, those who are not progressing up the highway of holiness to perfection of character will be permitted up to 100 years. Yet if they continue to disobey, willfully sin and remain merely children in their spiritual growth, they will then be eternally destroyed.
Peter- Thank you , nice response and scriptures utilized. That certainly was a thorough explanation.
May I ask another? With regards to the sheep and goats and timing of such. I have always thought that this parable was in reference to the 1,000 yr reign of Christ not Armegedon. I recognize verse 31-33 indicates future when after his arrival he sits down on his throne to separate sheep from goats and to me this would be that 1,000 yr period when even the wicked would be shown favor Isa 26:9,10, Isa 65:20.
But my question is with regards to the response of the sheep and the goats. They are said that how they respond to Christ brothers, either feeding and clothing or neglecting to do such would determine outcome (Matt 25:34-46) But this seems to be speaking about prior to 1,000 yr reign. How could Christ brothers need to be clothed or fed during his reign? And if based on there treatment prior to 1,000 yrs peaceable kingdom certainly they could not be judged based on previous deeds?
Brettstone – I need to do some more research here. It could be that “brethren” has a broader meaning and could encompassing the believing world as Jesus family as in the Good News translation.
Matthew 25:40 GNB
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’”
Prior to 1998, the JW Organization held the view that the Matt 25 parable of the Sheep and Goats applied to their witnessing work from 1914 to Armageddon. From about 1998 to 2003, they transitioned to the view that this parable applies to the 1,000 years. [Yes we welcome them back to the old light.]
In this parable of Sheep and Goats, we find more evidence that the “flaming fire” destruction of 2 Thes 1 does not apply only to Armageddon, but beyond, is found in Matt 25 in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. There are at least three striking similarities between these two passages that illustrate they are covering the same time period.
1) Jesus comes with his holy messengers (2 Thes 1:7; Matt 25:31)
2) FIRE is associated with the destruction (2 Thes 1:8; Matt 25:41)
3) The destruction is EVERLASTING (2 Thes 1:9; Matt 25:41, 46)
Let’s look more closely at each of these 3 examples.
EXAMPLE #1:
2 Thes 1:7 (NWT) “the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels”
Matt 25:31 (NWT) “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him”
EXAMPLE # 2:
2 Thes 1:8 (NWT) “in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who… do not obey”
Matt 25:41 (NWT) “Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire”
EXAMPLE # 3:
2 Thes 1:9 (NWT) “These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction
Matt 25:41, 46 (NWT) “these will depart into everlasting cutting-off”
1) Jesus comes with his holy messengers (2 Thes 1:7; Matt 25:31)
2) FIRE is associated with the destruction (2 Thes 1:8; Matt 25:41)
3) The destruction is EVERLASTING (2 Thes 1:9; Matt 25:41, 46)
We see that the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is covering the same time period as Jesus coming in flaming fire taking vengeance. Consequently, if the parable of the Sheep and Goats parable applies to the 1,000 years, then so must the flaming fire destruction of 2 Thes 1:6-10, not just to Armageddon.
Other verses in the Bible promise a future hope for the unbelieving world. Even the wicked will be resurrected from the dead. Some will become sheep and others goats.
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world too. No exceptions are given.
1 Tim 4:10 – God… is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
God is not only the savior of believers, but also of all men. No exceptions are given.
John 1:29 – “John …said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! NKJV
No exceptions are given.
So the Bible holds out a future hope of life for all people, even the worst sinners.
Verse 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
This has always been the key point to the understanding of the timing of this parable, because the fire prepared for the Devil and his Angelss is at the end of the 1,000 yrs.
I appreciate your response and look forward to conversing!
Peter…You stated!
“Prior to 1998, the JW Organization held the view that the Matt 25 parable of the Sheep and Goats applied to their witnessing work from 1914 to Armageddon. From about 1998 to 2003, they transitioned to the view that this parable applies to the 1,000 years. [Yes we welcome them back to the old light.]”
Interesting!!! It was my understanding that the parable was no longer understood to be the period from 1914 to Armegedon but that it is now understood to be future at Christ Arrival or Armegedon when Jesus separates. This is based on the idea that Christ brothers or anointed joint heirs would have been on earth in order for people to demonstrate the treatment they gave Christ/his brothers. Do you have a WT reference to the change of understanding to the 1,000 yrs? This treatment of his brothers is what spurred my question to you??
I am looking at my 2013 WT library now and no reference to the 1,000 yrs period just Change from our work as a separating to a future point at Christ arrival. WT 013 7/15 pgs 6&7 when does Jesus separate the sheep and goats: states that this takes place when Jesus comes during the great tribulation and culminates at Armegedon.
That is why I stated that I have always believed it is during Christ reign the 1,000 yrs contrary to WT teachings!
Brettstone – You probably have the more accurate explanation. I’ll let you know if I find anything else.
“The Watchtower of August 15, 1996, said: “In the final part of the tribulation, ‘flesh’ that has fled to Jehovah’s side will be saved.” Is that suggesting that after the first phase of the great tribulation, many new ones will come over to God’s side? That was not the point being made. As to whether any new ones may be able to learn the truth and come over to God’s side after the great tribulation begins, note Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 24:29-31. After the outbreak of the tribulation, the sign of the Son of man will appear. Jesus said that all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves and lament. He did not say anything about people waking up to the situation, repenting, taking God’s side, and becoming true disciples. Similarly, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the Son of man appears and judicially separates people on the basis of what they had done or not done in the past. Jesus said nothing about people who long displayed goatlike attributes suddenly turning around and becoming like sheep. He comes to judge on the basis of what people had already proved to be.-Matthew 25:31-46.” Watchtower 1997 Feb 15 p.29
Also July 15, 2013 has the latest summaries on some of this and clear thru November study issues. http://www.jwfacts.com/pdf/the-truth-changes-doug-mason.pdf
Brettstone, I am looking as well as this changed again in the last 2-5yrs saying it is at the arrival of Christ at armageddon. The two views presented however by Br. Peter are accurate. That is what I would teach in the 50’s and 60’s that we the ones going door to door were doing a separating work. In fact we would call persons goats if they didn’t listen. Just thought I wouild pop in on this stirring conversation.
Peter- another question. Lol
2 Peter 3:6-10 has long disturbed me! Appears it is speaking about 1,000 yr reign of Christ but compares it to days of Noah when entire civilization was wiped out. What time period does it apply to?
WT teaches Armegedon!
What about BS? What have your studies revealed?
Brettstone – Your question # 2 is a deep question. The Matt 24 link I previously provided should help to explain Matt 24:31. In addition let me add the following.
The 7 Trumpets basically correspond to 7 historical periods starting at Pentecost and with the early Church. The message of each trumpet continues to sound until that church period ends and the next new Church period begins, along with the new Trumpet message. Find more here:
http://www.heraldmag.org/2001/01ja_6.htm
The 7th Trumpet began to sound when Jesus invisibly returned. It will continue to sound until the 1,000 years have ended.
Your question was that Matt 24:31 appears to be after the Great Tribulation, so how can this be the same Trumpet blast as occurred when Jesus returned?
Matthew 24:31 ASV
“And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
I think the answer is that the Trumpet blast is continuous and this is simply a different part of the multipart message of the 7th Trumpet.
As you go through the Matt. 24 study link you will notice that Matt 24 contains double applications to both 1) the end of the Jewish Age and 2) the end of the Gospel Age. I believe Matt 24:31 has the following double application.
1) After the Gospel Age Tribulation (True Church persecuted by Papal system during Dark Ages), the 7thTrumpet Harvest message sounds for the Elect/Anointed to come out of the counterfeit heaven (Babylon / Nominal Churches)
2) After the Great Tribulation ends (future), the Elect (Jews still scattered) are gather back to Israel with help from the messengers (glorified 144,000 Bride of Christ).
Brettstone on your point three doctrine I was taught in the early 50’s that there was a general resurrection or a ransom for all of mankind with maybe a few exceptions. by 1970 or before this was changed and you were corrected if you said that. I have not researched year but my memory of time periods is very good.
Jacqueline- thanks for your response! I tried to find an explanation in the Watchtower as to why we walked away from the Ransom for all doctrine. That is why I was asking the year possibly to locate a WT with the reasoning. But it appears it was gradual with no explanation and possibly over time as the Ransom for all was no longer mentioned it faded into distant pass with no questions! But at least your history and time spent in the org helps me to know a possibly time period..
Jacqueline or Peter- I have noticed quite the diversity among modern day BS and was wondering???
Notice some reject dates such as 1874, 1914, also listened to a talk by a BS on Visalia Bible Students web site as to why these dates are wrong and how it is has been a problem repeated among both JW’s and BS.
Do you consider those BS who reject these dates, among your fellow anointed brothers and sisters?
Do some of these make up the little flock?
Brettstone – For the most part, Bible Students believe Jesus returned in 1874 and that the time of Gentile domination over the Jews ended in 1914. Because we allow Christian liberty of thought, there are a small percent that may disagree. Most that have had significant disagreements relating to prophecy have left the mainstream Bible Student association altogether. The brother I know from the Visalia Bible Students with the website is a former JW and you would have to ask him/them why they have different views. My impression from their website is that they are well aware of prophetic date mistakes and inflexibility from the the Watchtower and I wonder if some of those perceptions carry over to Bible Students.
Discussing time prophecy fulfilled is difficult as most people think the idea is such nonsense that they will not investigate it. Interestingly, in Daniel 12, in context of discussing the 1290 and 1335 days (years), Daniel says that the “wise will understand.” So Daniel seemed to think that time prophecy was a good thing. Nearly all Christian accept the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 as bringing us to Christ at the first advent. Many protestants held to the day for a year concept in prophecy and in regard to the reign of the Papacy (Man of Sin / Little Horn). However Protestants today have embraced the counter reformation view promoted by the Catholics that the Anti-Christ will reign for 1260 literal days in the future. So Christians today are okay with time prophecy as long as it is all in the future. They don’t want to hear a word about it if you make any of it historical, other than the 70 weeks.
Peter another doctrinal question. I posted yesterday but here it is again!
2 Peter 3:6-10 has long disturbed me! Appears it is speaking about 1,000 yr reign of Christ but compares it to days of Noah when entire civilization was wiped out. Which makes me think of Jesus words regarding his parousia. What time period does it apply to?
WT teaches Armegedon!
What about BS? What have your studies revealed?
Brettstone,
I see that you are concerned about how to apply the 2 Peter 3 judgement in regard to Armageddon and the 1,000 years, particularly as regards the example of the devestating destruction in Noah’s time.
I believe that this 1,000 year Judgment is comprehensive, starting with:
1) the judgment and glorification of the sleeping saints at Jesus second presence and each prospective member of the bride of Christ living and dying during His presence.
2) the judgment of the religious and civil government systems (beast, dragon and false prophet)
3) the destruction of other worldly systems (busineses, clubs, associations, etc.)
4) the disciplining of sinners and the wicked, requiring they make restitution and amends to those they harmed
5) the death penalty for the incorrigible who refuse to repent.
This all takes a full 1,000 years.
What about the comparison with the destruction of Noah’s day. Actually, the point is that the mockers willfully forget that God destroyed the old order and refuse to belive he will do it again. The focus is on the destruction of the old heavens and earth and then the setting up of the new heaven and earth (kingdom government and social order). The focus is NOT on the percentage of mankind that perished in the flood.
Notice that the manuscript evidence for verse 10 does not support “burned up,” but rather:
2 Pet 3:10 “..the earth and everything done on it will be exposed.” In other words the evil deed are exposed and the corrupt systems replaced.
In the Bible, “heaven represents government and “earth” represents the social order. There are three sets of heaven and earth in the Bible:
1) “the world that was” pre-flood 2 Pet 3:6
2) “the present evil world”
3) “the world to come wherein dwells righteiousness) 2 Peter 3:13
It takes the full 1,000 years to set up the kingdom government and repress evil. Only then can Jesus turn over the kingdom back to the Father (1 Cor 15:24) for the final little season test Rev 20:7) without the protection and intervention of the Mediator. At this point, mankind has no excuse for not being perfect.
Well writen thank you again Peter..
I do understand what the Heavens and Earth represent in scripture.. My concern was the timing because in the Watchtower it has always been applied to Armegedon..
But thanks again…
Brettstone – Thanks. Great questions. Feel free to share your own insights. We are all learning.
Brettstone – You asked when the WBTS left the Ransom for ALL doctrine. I do not have all the research on that. It was somewhere around 1931 or shortly thereafter. You might find this testimonial from Br. Irving Foss interesting. He speaks of the time in 1933 when the Watchtower attempted to take over the Chicago Bible Students at which time those bible Students split off:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/05/14/an-eye-witness-account-by-br-irving-carl-foss/
Here is a Watchtower quote from December 15, 1929, page 381. Here the WBTS still held to the Ransom for ALL.
When Christ has received his faithful followers to
himself in heaven and fully set tip his kingdom, the
narrow way will for ever close. (Luke 13 : 23-25) That
does not mean that the heathen, dead infants, and
all others who have never entered the narrow way are
abandoned to endless destruction. No l Jesus “gave
himself a ransom for all” (1 Tim. 2: 5,6), and all
must therefore in justice have an opportunity lo know
of and accept the benefits of that ransom. That oportunity
will come under the incoming kingdom of
Christ. King Jesus will call forth all the dead front
the graves to give them that opportunity, whereas
those still alive “at his kingdom and appearing” will
at once be able to take advantage of that opportunity.
God’s kingdom through Christ will, figuratively speaking,
“east up the highway” to life, and all the ransomed
race, those still living and the awakened dead,
may travel up that highway in holiness back to paradise
and reconciliation with God through Christ as
mediator.
Peter- Thanks once again for your response to my questions:) I do not want to consume to much of your time, so I will limit questions to more important issues.
well the blind lead the blind, is a humble man humble if he saids so or if other say he is, this is the kingdom halls problem. did Jehovah my FATHER give you that tilte or did you give to youself????see think about it you SLAVE, there are ways of checking yourself’s,Is it so bad out here that you have to brain wash people to teach the bible. I DON’T.If Jesus were here in your face would you take such a title????
Sun – Thanks. I agree that the Governing Body takes unauthorized authority to themselves. However, for any JWs who sincerely disagree, I would like to sincerely invite you to make your case. We will listen to what you have to say and compare to the scriptures.
The 2013 Study issue of the Watchtower also notes that they have not fully proven to be “faithful and discreet” as they see that Jesus mention of an Evil Slave is not about another group but a warning to the Governing Body.
“Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave. His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.” – w13 7/15
Friend, thanks for your comment. I always wondered how this “evil slave” got to be a “CLASS” and I never could see how the “Discreet Slave” could be a class. I never saw the actual proof from scriptures but wasn’t allowed to ask what I felt so I could reason it out. That is why it is good to have brothers constantly search together instead of saying God and Jesus and dead anointed are communicating with us directly, and this is what they say. Because when it changes (as it will in JW theology) weaker minds that believe them might began to question God and Jesus.
Presently I am on the app “Christian Resources and put in the words “great crowd” under audio discourses, from this I have many brothers digging with the audience even to get more understanding of “where” this class of people are seen, their domain after the Tribulation.
As a JW I only heard one small secret synod”s thought. You couldn’t ask a question nor could you disagree without fear of retribution.
So I like your term “”they have not fully proven.” Jacqueline
I could have believed this if so many things hadn’t changed showing in fact, the organization is a publishing house that elevated itself to this position, and not by the authority of Jehovah. The fact is, none of these men would have been appointed to the GB if the expectations from only twenty or so years ago (look how young they are!) hadn’t been realized and the whole arrangement had to be reinterpreted, yet many choose to go along, which is their right. I just can’t believe this concept anymore.
Kevin – Thanks for sharing your reaction. Would you like to share something about your personal story? We would love to hear about your personal experiences, both good and bad as may be the case.