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Should the Governing Body be Questioned and Put to the Test?

Keefa contributed and interesting comment that we present below slightly modifed.  We do not mean to cause offense to those highly respect and regard the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body.  However, what we do want to do is raise the question, how can any religious group know that they are in the Jehovah’s Group with Jehovah’s  appointed leaders? 

It is hard to talk to a Catholic since no matter what the Bible says, they trust the Pope and Church tradition.  It’s hard to talk to a Mormon, since the book of Mormon supersedes the Bible and since the Mormon president is God’s prophet in their eyes.  Shouldn’t there be some way that a Catholic or Mormon could discover if there is any mistake in their group or if their group is even Jehovah’s Group?  Yes, at some point, the authority of the Bible needs to supersede what these self styled Apostles claim so as to determine if they really are representatives of Jehovah.   It is circular reasoning to just accept their authority without putting it to the test, otherwise no person could ever find their way out of a false religion, since everything their authority says is correction, no matter what the Bible appears to say different.  Below is Keefa’s article

     ———————————————————–

Did you know that our organization has hidden the true meaning of Rev 2:2 right before our very eyes, its has not rendered the Greek reflexive pronoun accurately.

NWT reads (Revelation 2:2) ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars.

I have used two other translations to make the point clear of how the verse should read:

NAU Revelation 2:2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

NJB Revelation 2:2 I know your activities, your hard work and your perseverance. I know you cannot stand wicked people, and how you put to the test those who were self-styled apostles, and found them false.

On a good note the Kingdom Interlinear  version correctly renders this verse and think you may to check the variance.

So the phrase we want to focus on is who call themselves apostles, In Greek  “heautous  is a Greek reflexive, plural pronoun.The reflexive pronoun reflects the action back to the subject, and therefore, the English translation will use such words as myself, yourself, themselves. So linguistically I propose the Watchtower society is hiding something from us here and that’s why I think it is noteworthy to check other up-to-date Bible translations and if possible purchase a lexicon and look at the meaning of some these words.

Now here is the doctrinal error.. Who does it say we should put to the test? According to the NJB translation those who were (are) self-styled apostles.  Who has claimed to be the brothers of Messiah? is not the Governing Body the ones who make special claims of having been appointed and then sent by Jesus who are the focus of what we read, in part, in Revelation 2:2.  

It seems likely, therefore, the Society has deliberately omitted any discussion of ‘putting them to the test’ when it coesm to its own claims to appointment and authority.  Instead look in the Watchtower 2012 CD ROM, I only see 5 hits of the phrase “put those to the test.”  So in 64 years no Watchtower article has ever stated that the Governing Body should be put to the test by its rank and file members.

Instead they turn this around on us rank and file members as the ones who are put to the test by them (field service hours, meeting attendance, contributions, regional building work etc.); but instead why are we not listening to the very words of our Master and Messiah Jesus.  Jesus said to put those to the test who are calling themselves as self-styled apostles if anything, this testing “require” that those ‘testing’ the Watchtower Society reject them, immediately, unless they repent (compare Revelation 2:21-23) and stop teaching things which are not true [i.e. blood transfusions, everyone who dies in Armageddon dies the second death, 1925, 1975, etc.], even requiring belief in such things for “approved association, and even if we secretly reject any teaching from the Watchtower we are still condemned. Once again, there is no application of “put those put to the test” from Revelation 2:2 to anyone in the congregations of the Watchtower, though such ‘testing’ is expressly approved by Jesus for any who make special claims of having been sent by him. As we examined Revelation 2:2, we see the Watchtower Society does not want any of its members ‘putting the Society to the test,’ though it is made up of the very ones who make the kinds of claims as self-styled apostles which we are told to “test.”

I need a good response to these questions and translation issues, can anyone help?

116 comments to Should the Governing Body be Questioned and Put to the Test?

  • Keepha

    @Windsurfer I try to love everybody(including the GB) but is the love reciprocal? Did not our Messiah say (Matthew 11:29, 30)  Take my yoke upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls. 30 For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”
    Are the under-shepherds(GB) imitating the Master in this regard? I would like for you to meditate of this scripture and reply back to me here whether this is the case.
    in Christian love with deep respect.
    Keepha

  • Keepha

    @ Windsurfer, Kent and others:

    {you wrote}To receive with great eagerness does not necessarily mean that it was believed with great eagerness before being compared to scriptures in order to validate, or invalidate (whatever the case would be) that which was spoken.{reply} that’s my point exactly that we should compare all teachings with scripture rather than blindly accept doctrines and prophecy that are inaccurate. Just as we must hate the sin, but the love the sinner and pray for those persecuting us, we must also hate false teachings, but still show love to those who may have mistakenly or intentionally mislead us.

    {you wrote}Jehovah’s name means “He Causes To Become”.{reply} I would like for you or anyone else to answer this question: How can we know for certain whether the pronunciation of the Divine Name and its meaning are accurate, if as the FS admit they never had any training in classical Hebrew?

    Have we put this to the TEST? Greek verb(peirazo=test) is an indicative aorist active 2nd person singular, and means make trial of, put to the test. The way we put the Governing Body on Trial is to be as studious as Lawyers and cross examine every last teaching they have taught us.

    {you wrote}Who am I to attack what work God has done and is doing?”{reply} if this question is in connection to the Governing Body, then I ask please provide the evidence to show they are God’s channel? Where is the evidence?
    {you wrote} My focus is now on truth, endurance, waiting. Not attacking any man.?”{reply} I would hope its not coming across as if we are attacking anybody, but rather their teachings. These self-styled apostles have actually cost honest members their lives and have seriously misinterpreted the scriptures. How do you understand this scripture penned by Jesus Brother James NAU James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. In reference to them, are they not going to receive stricter judgment?

    I am looking for successful answers to these questions

    wrote in deep respect and Christian love

    Keepha

    • Windsurfer

      I hear you. I understand what you are saying. And I’m NOT a teacher. I am speaking about what I am learning from reading the scriptures. I don’t study at the kingdom halls or churches. I study the Bible at home. As far as the governing body is concerned, I am not obligated by God to say they are or they are not who they say they are. It seems people are obsessed with challenging them, but I’m not going to be one of them. I want to learn how to love, not condemn. I think that’s what God wants me to learn. I have been where you are about a lot of people. I wasted valuable time pinpointing wrongs. I am a sinner. I have no right to do that. There’s too much hate and ick in the world to build websites to accuse people. It hurts people. There are cruel people who want to harm persons they disagree with for whatever reason and websites that focus on negatives only encourage harm. Why would I want to encourage that? I am not obligated to accuse, I am obligated to love.

      I’ll never return to this website. I feel like I’m walking into a drab cold refrigerator when I visit this website. When I visit the scriptures, I can smell flowers and feel the warmth of the sun. I’d rather be there. Let God work it out.

      • Jacqueline

        Windsurfer, I hope you are okay. Don’t harm yourself. There is so much more for you to read on the site. Often we will get JW apologists that will shut down any meaningful discussions on getting to the bottom of the assumption of apostolic succession or a ruling class already put in authority over the body of Christ.
        They use unsupported scriptures like a blog. Normally a person should just stop participation but they will hurl accusations for having a Christian discussion. Yet the same apologists won’t lift a finger to help one being mistreated in the congregation.
        The shoe is fitting the governing body and the Pope for that matter. The Holocaust happened for so long Because of assuming Hitler had a divine right from God by his supporters. Jim Jones and Koresh all had believers that God appointed them so we should be careful questioning them. If it helps one person this post has accomplished a good deed.
        We welcome all but that means apologists can’t shut down discussions either. So we have to respect the freedom of speech and thoughts of all.

  • doug

    thank you Jacqueline.I have read a lot of your answers on this site you are certainly blessed by Jehovah.

    • Jacqueline

      Doug, thank you for your kind words. The LORD has been abundantly good to me!. Doug I have nieces that have been raped by elders, that it was known they were rapists and they kept going back up as elders without us family members knowing at all over a 12 year period in one city (many victims by one elder), also other young girls and a boy.
      When my heart and soul was broken in collapse Jesus found the Bible Students for me. I poured my heart out to them and told them what was happening within this organization.
      They in the wisdom of Jehovah (mighty GOD) they did what they felt might help me survive since I had fought out.
      They said we want you to help. I said no! So they made this site anyway under the power of the Spirit. Then Br. Peter called one day and said you know we have Ask Jacqueline up and we have written who you are etc. I didn’t know it existed, I needed to change what they wrote. Then suddenly a person came on talking to me!
      And you know the rest of the story! I have been getting up every morning to see what I can do to help. Jesus saved my life! It is by focusing on helping others until I am tired that I can survive what I know about the inner workings of this organization.
      During this time physically I almost died in a fire and fought for my life 12 days in the hospital. Recuperation and not being able to move about gave me the time to help.
      The body was gone but my mind and the fight in me was alive and well.
      So thank you, I needed to tell about the glory of what Jesus can do, if you allow him to do it his way. The Chicago ecclias, let’s the Spirit move them to have a website that is quite different from how the Bible Students put up sites.
      You take care and Br. Montague says he will take care of your needs.

      • Anonymous

        Wow Jacqueline, you’ve been through a lot! Have you told any of this to your relatives who are witnesses?

        • Jacqueline

          Anonumous, they know how I alone began the fight and they being elders etc and others scared to deal with this didn’t know how to go about it as the governingbody made the decisions in the 60’s- 90″s on how to handle the pedophilia issue. I fought for the victims and stood by them in public to give them comfort. I think my family appreciated that I was there for the victims in our family. Now they know what to do and we will out a pedophile in a minute in the cong. In fact in October I told them of a pedophile from my area that is back there, our home town. They were shocked and didn’t know, so as elders they say they will tell family members and women with children to watch them as this is someone everyone knows and trusts. He has moved three times in three states with his new wife that gives him legitimate standing. (I introduced them).
          They are not as mean to me because they know of my court case and how I won it and they know about my illness from the fire. So my family is Kool. They hate it happened but was glad the kids told me and I went in to fight mode immediately to protect them. So all is good now! I have learned to work with my lungs and I am AOK. Thanks for your concern.

  • Windsurfer

    “The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” -Acts 17:10, 11

    God considers it noble-minded to search the scriptures for confirmation. “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” -Acts 5:29

    • Jacqueline

      Windsurfer, this as you say is our obligation to check if a teaching is true along the lines of the Bible.
      This article, however is speaking of something different. Rev. 2:2 talks about those who say they are apostles but are not. This refers to the one that said they knew the apostles or knew a person that knew one of the apostles and therefore had the right to take up the right to make doctrine and understanding of the scriptures and only them as an apostolic succession. The Bishops and later, far later the Papal system said it was the earthly expression of the Church kingdom on earth right then.
      Today the governingbody says IT and only IT is the earthly expression of God’s kingdom RIGHT NOW. That to question them is to question Jehovah himself. (they basically ignore Jesus) They say if you don’t accept them you can not get to Jehovah God. So should they be put to the test, not teachings of the Bible. Their position is instead of Christ ruling now, they are the earthly part of the heavenly kingdom. That is why we ask should they be put under scrutiny as that self appointed body.

      • Windsurfer

        ‘they received the “word” with great eagerness..’

        ‘examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.’

        The word “word”, in Greek, is logos. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/logos.html

        The word “Scriptures”, in Greek is graphe http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/graphe.html

        “word” refers to what is spoken.

        “scriptures” refers to what is written.

        My reply remains the same.

        The Greek word for ‘eagerness’ is prothumia, meaning “zeal, spirit, eagerness, inclination, readiness of mind’ http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/prothumia.html

        To receive with great eagerness does not necessarily mean that it was believed with great eagerness before being compared to scriptures in order to validate, or invalidate (whatever the case would be) that which was spoken.

        “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” -2 Timothy 3:16, 17

        ‘man of God..’ The Greek word for ‘man’ here used is anthropos meaning “a human being, whether male or female”. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/anthropos.html

        I already replied to your article’s question by using what is written in the scriptures.

        “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” -Acts 5:29

        I am not God. I cannot judge man. My responsibility is to learn to love all people. I am permitted only to discredit deeds, not man. I fall short and I have questioned all things by use of scriptures. I will not attack the governing body.

        Jehovah’s name means “He Causes To Become”. Who am I to attack what work God has done and is doing? I’ve had to learn that lesson the hard way. I’m very stubborn. My focus is now on truth, endurance, waiting. Not attacking any man.

        You are using Revelations 2:2 for your article’s questioning session. I am compelled to read further to the lines of Revelations 2:3-7:

        “You are also showing endurance, and you have borne up for my name’s sake and have not grown weary. Nevertheless, I hold [this] against you, that you have left the love you had at first. Therefore remember from what you have fallen, and repent and do the former deeds. If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nicola’us, which I also hate. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”

        • Jacqueline

          Windsurfer, thanks so much for a further explanation. I have to agree with everything you said using scripture and your reasoning is sound. There is however one point. Where in the bible is there a mention of Christians having a governing body. If you read history books that we have on the early church fathers, (Early Christian Writings- The Apostolic Fathers, translated by Maxwell Staniforth) you will find info on the development of the Church during the dark ages. From Christ to the end of the second century when it’s power were still independent from the state. They had men that connected with each Bishop run sector but not as a governing body over each other.
          This governing body or Papa- father body came into existence with the Pope systems. This system said essential what the self appointed (unless we can see scripture suggesting this appointment) governingbody of Jwitnesses says today. That they are a body from the Early Christian era citing:
          Acts 15:22-23
          The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
          22 Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members[a] and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: ‘The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the believers[b] of Gentile origin in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.”

          Here we see the congregation consented and the Apostles (appointed by Jesus) and the elders. So this closed off hierarchy making decisions that they deem okay without the congregation, the elders (the apostle’s are dead and there is no apostolic succession) involved is incorrect scripturally.
          They only possibly brought it to Jerusalem because (1) It was brothers from that area causing the problem on circumcision and there were probably a concentration of Apostles and older men in the Holy City. BUT THEY WERE NOT A GOVERNING BODY, they convened for a reason. Read the book of Acts, those brothers go out to the whole world and they were impaled and died for Christ. They didn’t sit up in Bethel or Jerusalem in absolute luxury and try to keep the flock from thinking on the scriptures with fear of punishment if they disagreed with them. They included the congregation.
          Maybe you have not been around the governingbody ot felt their wrath in a personal way, so you might not Windsurfer understand their fury.
          Maybe you know not intimately the sexual pedophilia rape of our children and how it was deliberately treated. I DO. And twelve year old children knew better than to treat it that way. THIS IS THE ONLY ORGANIZATION THAT GOD TALKS TOO AND GIVES THEM INSTRUCTIONS. (Their words not mine, and I have the quotes if you need them).
          So this is the spirit in which the producer of this article I think wrote. (A JW btw)

          • Windsurfer

            You’re asking to me to understand their fury. I do understand fury. But, it has no place. It serves no useful function. I liked that Paul used his time and words to encourage, not to bash. God will work out the rest.

            “Another simile he set before them, saying: ‘The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field, and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away, and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel. ‘And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel? And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up? ‘And he said, No, lest — gathering up the darnel — ye root up with it the wheat, suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'” -Matthew 13:24-30

            “and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.” -Matthew 13:39

            • Jacqueline

              No Windsurfer I am not asking you to understand their fury. I am just saying if you have not gone up against them you can’t understand those that have had to stand up against severe wrongs that they sanctioned. But if you have not experienced any of this you will logically support them. So I understand where you are coming from. A WHOLE LOT OF CATHOLICS say that they still support the Popes, bishops etc although the news has exposed them. They will go to bat in their defense and they also believe like you, that God has put the Popes in position. You see they believe in Apostolic succession as does the governingbody. They claim they have taken up those roles from the 1 century Christian congregation. But neither system, the Catholic or the Governing body of JWitnesses can prove scripturally that they alone have been appointed as the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God on earth now. Both are self appointed and certified but if you can show me scripturally that there is a governingbody and it is God’s earthly organization, I will bow to it. JESUS said my kingdom is not of this world or from this source

              John 18: 33-39 33 Then Pilate entered the headquarters[a] again, summoned Jesus, and asked him, ‘Are you the King of the Jews?’ 34 Jesus answered, ‘Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell you about me?’ 35 Pilate replied, ‘I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me. What have you done?’ 36 Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.’ 37 Pilate asked him, ‘So you are a king?’ Jesus answered, ‘You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.’ 38 Pilate asked him, ‘What is truth?’
              Jesus Sentenced to Death

              After he had said this, he went out to the Jews again and told them, ‘I find no case against him. 39 But you have a custom that I release someone for you at the Passover. Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?
              PS: Windsurfer I want to say I am not now personally affected by them, I have healed. Also I have found the PEN to be mightier than the Sword!

              • Windsurfer

                In the words of Gamaliel,

                “Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching* these men.” -Acts 5:35

                *The Greek word for ‘touching’ is epi,
                meaning “upon, on, at, by, before
                of position, on, at, by, over, against
                to, over, on, at, across, against
                http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/epi.html

                “For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered ,and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

                • Jacqueline

                  Wind surfer, maybe you know what the Scriptures are for these men being apostles like Gamaliel was speaking of. Unless you scripturaly identify them as a governing body appointed by Christ. You are just quoting scriptures from the bible. Are you saying they are appointed as the earthy part of Christ kingdom now? That is what they say. Your scriptures are great quotes bbutyou have not proved that it applies to the Governing body.
                  I quoted you the only one the GB uses, in Acts. Can you supply others. And just quoting scriptures not proving it’s about the GB, doesn’t work. I hope you understand what I am saying. On a cell phone house internet is down until service call Tomorrow, so my Answers are brief.

                  • Windsurfer

                    “All scripture is inspired by God”.

                    “there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.” -Romans 13:1

                    “Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

                    • Jacqueline

                      Thanks for the quotes Windsurfer. I agree that the bible is from God. But you probably need to reference some of your scriptures especially Rom 13:1. Also keeping and applying scriptures in context is honorable. Take care Windsurfer

          • Windsurfer

            just an fyi..I mentioned Paul in my comment but quoted Jesus, of course.

        • Jacqueline

          Oh BTW Windsurfer, we don’t mean to come across as mean. This is just a big boy subject and we are all getting to sharpen our tools and others are looking on so I want you to understand we are trying to dig into this hot topic. In Christian love to you you. Jacqueline (BTW, you are making valid points)

  • Greetings from Sweden
    This was a so interesting article so that I had to comment on this. I was a Jehovahs Witness for alomst 25 years but startted tio become disturbed aboutt the power the Governing Body has. I researched their fundamental doctrines and found they where not actually rooted in the bible.

    I do not have time to discuss these doctrines now but only want to mention a discussion I had yesterday with a Jehovahs Witness that has been working at Bethel here in Sweden for almost 25 years. I asked him about Daniel 12 and the 1290 days. I mentioned I had some thoughts and how these could be understood as to point to our days. I thought he would be glad to hear those encouraging thoughts and because I thought they should not contradict his faith, it should be encouraging. He told me he was the one that translated the book the Governing Body published that explained that particular verses in Daniel. The Watchtowers explanation of the 1290 days is as I see it not satisfactory explained.

    He said he (Being a JW:s for almost 60 years) only believed what the Governing Body says. He said I do not listen to anything else. Are you saying you are a prophet explaining the scriptures? It is only the Governing Body that does that for us.

    I was amazed how a 65 year old JW:s and as I see it a intelligent man leaves all his understanding of the scriptures to those men in Brookjlyn, calling Themselves (apostles). He said that it is only the Governing Body that can interpret the scriptures so I stick to them.

    This is how strong the influence these “self appointed” men has on so many Jehovahs Witnesses. And think for yourself, many of them has lived isolated in Bethel for 40 or 50 years or more with only folk around them saying what is pleasing to them. How can we trust men with so little experiences of real life experiences, the followers has and other people has.

    An extreme example of this we have in the leaders of dictatures that surround themselfs with people saying only things that threy want to hear. It is as the emperors new clothes. The emperor went out totaly naked, believing that he had wonderful clothes, just because no one around him dared tell him the truth.

    In Sweden we have a ship that was found after many years (sunk the year 1500 ad) called the ship of Wasa. The king “Wasa” wanted to build a strong fearful ship to scare the enemies with. Therefore they built it high with a lot of heave canons in. In those days 1500:ths AD, they had a custom that they always tested the ships before they put them into use. They ran from one side of the ship to tthe other to see if they ship was stable. In the case of Wasa it was to high with to many canons. The shipbuilder responsible knew that and reasoned that they had to cut a floor wich they sometimes did in those days, if it was to high. The only thing was that the King loved the ship, and wanted to use it to scare his enemys, so he did not dear to confront him with this fact. The result was that he died with the ship, when it sunk.

    This is good examples as far as I see it, that to isolate yourself being admired and with much power, could result in a tendency that the information you get from outside is very distorted and formed only in the way, that they think the leaders want to hear it.

    Another things is that to have that power is very desirable because, it gives them so many things and the admire of the poeple as well as material things, so that they tend to defend that power against anyone that is critical.

    As I see it, the truth costs and Jesus also said this, that if we want to follow him it would take a lot of loss and costs, but it is truthly said absolutely worth it. He critisized the pharisees and said they loved the praise of men and that they had their reward now.

    This is written right now and not edited.
    Kent

    • Anonymous

      I agree with you Kent. I still go to Jw meetings with my wife but I call myself a Bible student.Yes most Jw’s will not hear any other opinion other than the GB’s about the Bible but expect others to listen to them….so sad!

      • Thanks so very much Anonymous
        I appreciate your comment and I think you have made a good descision about going to the meetings. It is good to be careful as to not doing anything in a desperat way. You have time to think about things and to study the bible. The biblestudents are loving and understanding and I am sure they want to support you and your wife. It think itis good not to inform your JW friends to much in this stage.

        May God bless you and your wife.
        Kent

  • Keepha

    Anthony Buzzard

    3:56 PM (4 minutes ago)

    Peter I like your Biblical concept of the Ransom….May I ask why did Rutherford change this?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Anthony – You cannot control a group through fear if they accept the Ransom for all. It would mean that the people who are not JWs and die in Armageddon will have a future hope to choose to be obedient to God and live forever on earth.

  • Keepha

    Anthony Buzzard:
    Dear JW’s you have been privileged to learn the excellent Bible truth that the dead are dead, sleeping until the resurrection.

    That Jesus and the saints will rule in the future Kingdom. That the nations are going to cease killing each other.

    That God will not torment the wicked forever.

    You have also been privileged to learn that Jesus is not God and that that Trinity is a violation of biblical monotheism.

    But note that along the way you have been misled many times by leadership setting dates for the Parousia, and failing.

    I suggest that if you leave the very authoritarian circles of the Watchtower, you do not belong in a Trinitarian setting. You know that God is not Three.

    Why not give yourselves time to reinvestigate the very complex idea that Jesus is really Michael. Heb. ch 1 says twice in the clearest language that the Messiah was never and never will be an angel.

    That teaching loses the whole point of Messiahship.

    There Is still truth to be learned,

    in hope,

    Anthony

    http://www.restorationfellowship.org

  • Sirs, It really ought not to be hard to see that setting dates which turn out to be wrong calls in question the integrity of any movement. But the idea that Jesus IS Michael is absolutely false on the obvious sense of the verse found twice in Hebrews 1
    God never ever said at any time to any angel “you are my Son. Today I have begotten you.”
    An angel cannot be the Messiah. The WHOLE point of the Messiah is that he must be the descendant of David not older than David!

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Anthony – I appreciate the good work you do refuting Trinitarians.  You are a good student of scriptures.   I agree with you that false future date predictions do call into question the integrity and reliability of those making the predictions, particularly if they will not admit to any their mistakes.

      Bible Students do believe that Jesus had a prehuman existance, however we agree with you that when born of Mary, he was 100% a perfect human man and no longer a spirit being.

      The word “angel” means “messenger” and it is the job description frequently applied to the spirits (or spirit beings) who were assigned messenger duties on earth.  Although this job description most frequently applies to spirits, it can also apply to men or even to Jesus (Malachi 3:1) who have messenger duties in service of God.

      Since you are referring to Hebrew 1, verse 2 explains that Jesus created the world or ages which I believe would pre-date his birth of Mary.

      Whichever view we take on the issue of whether Jesus had a pre-human existence, the more important point is that I hope we can agree that as a perfect human man, Jesus could die a Ransom (anti-lutron) for ALL mankind.  “Anti-Lutron” means “a corresponding price.”  In other words a perfect human life (Jesus) died to redeem a previously perfect human man (Adam), hence assuring that everyone in Adams loins who inherited sin, would receive a full opportunity to receive perfect human life since Adam’s sin is cancelled by Jesus, who offered himself as a corresponding price in Adam’s place.

  • Keepha

    We should test ourselves first to make sure that we are in the faith.
    NAS 2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test?
    Next, we are to test the prophetic spirit of those that claim Divine revelation
    NAS 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    The Almighty God did not mean that we should just accept anything without proof, so we test, prove and make sure of all things and hold fast to what is good and nobody is above being test against what the scriptures teach, because Paul was tested in (Acts 17:11) Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Everything Paul taught, those Thessalonians checked in scripture.

  • doug

    the watch tower people are not the apostle’s
    for wolves in sheeps clothing infiltrated the Apostles

    • Jacqueline

      Doug we will check to see if there are Bible Students in Namibia for you and get back.

    • Jacqueline

      Doug, please open any emails from Br. Montage as he has a ministry in Africa and will answer your question on whether there are Bible Students in Namibia.
      Thank you so much for posting on the site. Normally you post in “contact us” and we are slow to answer. This is so much better. I have forwarded your email address to Br. Montage.
      Take Care my brother,

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