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Should the Governing Body be Questioned and Put to the Test?

Keefa contributed and interesting comment that we present below slightly modifed.  We do not mean to cause offense to those highly respect and regard the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body.  However, what we do want to do is raise the question, how can any religious group know that they are in the Jehovah’s Group with Jehovah’s  appointed leaders? 

It is hard to talk to a Catholic since no matter what the Bible says, they trust the Pope and Church tradition.  It’s hard to talk to a Mormon, since the book of Mormon supersedes the Bible and since the Mormon president is God’s prophet in their eyes.  Shouldn’t there be some way that a Catholic or Mormon could discover if there is any mistake in their group or if their group is even Jehovah’s Group?  Yes, at some point, the authority of the Bible needs to supersede what these self styled Apostles claim so as to determine if they really are representatives of Jehovah.   It is circular reasoning to just accept their authority without putting it to the test, otherwise no person could ever find their way out of a false religion, since everything their authority says is correction, no matter what the Bible appears to say different.  Below is Keefa’s article

     ———————————————————–

Did you know that our organization has hidden the true meaning of Rev 2:2 right before our very eyes, its has not rendered the Greek reflexive pronoun accurately.

NWT reads (Revelation 2:2) ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars.

I have used two other translations to make the point clear of how the verse should read:

NAU Revelation 2:2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

NJB Revelation 2:2 I know your activities, your hard work and your perseverance. I know you cannot stand wicked people, and how you put to the test those who were self-styled apostles, and found them false.

On a good note the Kingdom Interlinear  version correctly renders this verse and think you may to check the variance.

So the phrase we want to focus on is who call themselves apostles, In Greek  “heautous  is a Greek reflexive, plural pronoun.The reflexive pronoun reflects the action back to the subject, and therefore, the English translation will use such words as myself, yourself, themselves. So linguistically I propose the Watchtower society is hiding something from us here and that’s why I think it is noteworthy to check other up-to-date Bible translations and if possible purchase a lexicon and look at the meaning of some these words.

Now here is the doctrinal error.. Who does it say we should put to the test? According to the NJB translation those who were (are) self-styled apostles.  Who has claimed to be the brothers of Messiah? is not the Governing Body the ones who make special claims of having been appointed and then sent by Jesus who are the focus of what we read, in part, in Revelation 2:2.  

It seems likely, therefore, the Society has deliberately omitted any discussion of ‘putting them to the test’ when it coesm to its own claims to appointment and authority.  Instead look in the Watchtower 2012 CD ROM, I only see 5 hits of the phrase “put those to the test.”  So in 64 years no Watchtower article has ever stated that the Governing Body should be put to the test by its rank and file members.

Instead they turn this around on us rank and file members as the ones who are put to the test by them (field service hours, meeting attendance, contributions, regional building work etc.); but instead why are we not listening to the very words of our Master and Messiah Jesus.  Jesus said to put those to the test who are calling themselves as self-styled apostles if anything, this testing “require” that those ‘testing’ the Watchtower Society reject them, immediately, unless they repent (compare Revelation 2:21-23) and stop teaching things which are not true [i.e. blood transfusions, everyone who dies in Armageddon dies the second death, 1925, 1975, etc.], even requiring belief in such things for “approved association, and even if we secretly reject any teaching from the Watchtower we are still condemned. Once again, there is no application of “put those put to the test” from Revelation 2:2 to anyone in the congregations of the Watchtower, though such ‘testing’ is expressly approved by Jesus for any who make special claims of having been sent by him. As we examined Revelation 2:2, we see the Watchtower Society does not want any of its members ‘putting the Society to the test,’ though it is made up of the very ones who make the kinds of claims as self-styled apostles which we are told to “test.”

I need a good response to these questions and translation issues, can anyone help?

97 comments to Should the Governing Body be Questioned and Put to the Test?

  • Victor Field

    Peter
    I understand from what i have read on this site, both you and Jacqueline are anointed, after reading this reply to Brettstone, it also appears within the BS Brethren, you have been assigned the 1st Appointment,of feeding the Domestic’s,If my understanding here is right, when did this take place, 100yrs + ? you say.?

    You are quite a student of scripture and so reasonable in your approach. I will suggest that the language of Luke 12:35-37 urges a strictly second advent application. Verses 42-43 seem to me to show that at the second advent a Wise and Faithful STEWARD is appointed to dispense food to the SERVANTS of verse 37. It is interesting to me that the most important doctrine of the Bible in my view – the Ransom for ALL – was prominently taught from one source in the past 100+ years.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Victor – My view, allowing for Christian Liberty, is that for providing of “meat in due season” or food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45; Luke 12:37, 42; Rev 3:20) that there is only one appointment that took place when Jesus invisibly returned in 1874. If there truly is only one Faithful and Wise Steward (Luke 12:42) who is also the same person as the 7th Messenger (Rev 3:14) of the seventh and final Church period, then who are the potential candidates that might fill that role? Only one I can think of.

      Although it might be argued that the Faithful Steward is a class, there are three points that to my mind argue for one individual.

      1) The contrast of the servants (plural) being fed by the Steward (singular) appointed to dispense the food. (Luke 12:37, 42)
      2) The connection of the food served and door knocking of Luke 12:36-37 and Rev 3:20 contextually connect together as the same person the Faithful Steward of Luke 12:42 with the 7th Messenger of Rev 3:14
      3) Historically there was one specific person who fulfilled that role. Interesting Volume 3 “THY Kingdom Come” finally explains the Days of Daniel, these prophetic days of which were “sealed till the end time.” (Dan 12:9 compare verses 7, 11 & 12)

  • Wild Olive

    @ernesto,I find it quite ironic that ernestos method is an almost copy of Judge Rutherfords methods,he had the brethren picketing churches,funny how the GB isn’t comfortable with the same treatment lol.
    As for the questioning the GB,the organization turns over at the last count $250 000 000, that’s serious coin ,lots of country’s don’t even have that as GNP.
    The cost of running the organization is immense,if you do a bit of figuring ,Ime sure that the percentage of that income that’s actually spent directly on the needs of the brothers is very small,it’s noticable that in the org,there’s a form to fill out to give to the society in almost all areas of life,there is however no form to fill out if you need something from the org,you can’t get any help on an organisational level, there is no “official” way to get help,but there are plenty of ways to give “officially”,something that I feel needs serious questioning,considering the amount of money that’s flowing through

  • Anna

    I noticed this article as I was looking on the right of the page to see recent comments.
    Should the GB be put to the test? It doesn’t look like there is a problem with any of the translations. However the scripture is miss applied. Jesus is talking to a congregation in Ephesus commending it for not tolerating false apostles perhaps those promoting the sect of Nicolaus?). This is for individual congregations and their members, making sure they do not allow apostasy.
    It is clear that it is Jesus (the master) himself who will be the one questioning the Governing Body: Matthew 24:45-51.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Anna,

      You said, “It is clear that it is Jesus (the master) himself who will be the one questioning the Governing Body: Matthew 24:45-51.”

      Let’s read.

      Mattew 24 (NWT)
      “45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
      46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.
      47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
      48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’
      49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards,
      50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know,
      51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.”

      Who do you think is the “evil slave” of verse 48 or how do you explain the “evil slave?”

      Notice verse 46 “Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.” Doing what? Verse 45 says, “feeding food.” So the Faithful Slave is feeding food to other servants at the time that the Lord arrives.

      According to JW thinking, JF Rutherford would have been the leading member of the Faithful Slave. Was JF Rutherford and his close associates leading the Watchtower and primarily the ones feeding the other servants?

      Before Pastor Russell’s death, the Pastor had dismissed Rutherford from Bethel and provided him funds for a new start in California. When Pastor Russell died, Rutherford was working as a floorwalker in a department store. Upon hearing of the Pastor’s death, he telegraphed Bethel and told them to hold everything until he arrived. Sister Cora Sumdbom, Brother Baker and others testified that Brother Russell had quietly dismissed J.F. Rutherford from the Watchtower in 1915 for indiscretions unbecoming of a Christian. Brother Russell was a compassionate gentleman who did not want to destroy Brother Rutherford’s reputation, so very few were aware that he had been expelled.

      Rutherford was an extremely forceful, self-seeking character. By legal tricks and maneuvers, he was able to avoid the will’s intent and directives to establish himself as President of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, contrary to the wishes of the majority of the Board of Directors. ”Judge” Joseph Franklin Rutherford usurped total control of the Society and became an absolute dictator.

      Rutherford apparently felt that he needed something to establish his position and show leadership capabilities. He was an accomplished public speaker, a skill honed in politics, but others were also. He decided to quickly publish a new book and rush it into print without consulting or receiving approval from the editorial committee as required by Pastor Russell’s will. Two brothers, both from Scranton, Pennsylvania, had developed material for treatises on Ezekiel (George H. Fisher) and Revelation (Clayton J. Woodworth), while Brother Russell still lived. These were hastily completed and combined into one book published in the summer of 1917, the same year the United States entered the war in Europe (April 6, 1917). The Judge released the book on July 7, 1917, the same day he announced the replacement of four WTBTS directors, named by Pastor Russell in his will, with directors of his own choosing. It was falsely proclaimed to be the posthumous work of Pastor Russell. The book was titled the “Finished Mystery” and presented as Pastor Russell’s long expected “Seventh Volume.” It was laced with quotations from Pastor Russell’s writings, which supposedly supported the prophetic theories of the two authors.

      In light of these facts, it is evident that JF Rutherford and his associates were not running the Watchtower in 1914 and therefore could not have been the Faithful Slave who had already been feeding the other servants when Jesus had arrived at His second presence.

      • Anna

        Peter,
        You might be surprised but I do know all that history. But that does not mean I believe all of it. I cannot say anything in defense of Rutherford regarding that period of time because I wasn’t there. All I have is what was written by him, and what was written by his opposers. However, I can see the results of what he started. And I can see the results of those who separated from him and formed their own groups. They either came to nothing (LHMM, Stand fast BS, Pastoral Bible institute, Watchers of the Morning etc. you know the rest) or split into other groups with their own off shoots. Each member holding their own personal interpretation of Scripture. You might call that Christian liberty, but I call it doctrinal confusion.

        You ask who do I think the evil slave is? It looks like it is the same slave if he changes and starts saying: “My master is delaying, and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards” It sounds like a warning to the slave, not to ever become like that.

        I have a question too. The faithful and discreet slave was to feed all the flock of God. Who is feeding those various offshoots of the Bible Students?

        • Brettstone

          What I found interesting is the change of understanding that came in 2012 annual meeting and then followed up In the March 2013 study article..
          Prior to the new understanding it was taught that before the Master (Christ) went away, he would appoint a slave who would carry out his duties of feeding the Masters household faithfully and then upon the Masters return/arrival if found doing so that slave would be appointed over his whole household or all his belongings.
          Here is the time frame given by the “Slave”
          Master goes away 33 C.E.
          Master returns 1914 and rewards slave
          The watchtower stated that the faithful slave would have to be nearly 2,000 yrs old to fulfill this prophecy and that cannot be so it must therefore be a composite group of ifaithful anointed Christians in an unbroken line down to Russell in 1914….

          Here is where the new understanding doesn’t fit and has not been given and explanation in the Watchtower as of yet..
          If the Master went away and appointed the slave to feed his domestics while away!
          How could it be that on his arrival in 1914 the Master gave 1st appointment then went away (Where did he go if he is now present and king with all authority and head of the congregation and directing the preaching work) then returns to give 2nd appointment in the near future?
          What is interesting is that before this parable in both Mathew 24 and Luke 12 JESUS says to “Keep on the watch” then gives this parable in chapter 24 of matthew followed by another 2 parables in chapter 25 about remaining faithful while on the watch.
          To me this parable appears to be nothing more than a characteristic demonstrated by his faithful slaves who remain either watchful or calculate he will be gone a long time and slack off…
          Ana how could it be that Jesus goes away somewhere around 1919 and give 1st appointment to Rutherford (Not governing body sinse it didn’t exist until 1970’s) before leaving and is away until he returns sometime in the near future?
          For homework one should read the parable in both books Luke and Matthew and in several translations….

          • Anna

            Brettstone,

            It was apparently in the context of Christ’s COMING that the parable of the faithful slave was given by him. The reason for that understanding is that in the first century there was no reason to ask that question about who was supplying spiritual food as it was clearly apparent that the apostles were. The gift of the holy spirit enabled them to perform miraculous tasks. It was evident that they were the ones chosen by Jesus and Jehovah to do the dispensing of spiritual food as they preached about the Kingdom and wrote the rest of the Bible. However the question WAS relevant when Jesus was appointed King when the harvest season began. There would be wheat and weeds. That is when the question was asked, and the wheat was identified, and the faithful slave (wheat) appointed to feed the domestics. But notice carefully what Matt 24:46 says. They were not yet appointed over all his belongings, only to feed his domestics according to verse 45. When Jesus starts to separate the goats from the sheep and to execute judgment during the great tribulation, that is also the time when the slave is inspected and it is seen whether it has been doing what it was appointed to do (feeding domestics), or whether they have turned into an evil slave. If they are found favorable, then Jesus will appoint them over ALL his belongings in heaven and on earth when they are finally sealed at the end of great tribulation.

            I don’t know if you read my other post in reply to yours about Christ’s coming, but there I mention to the effect that Christ’s coming begins with his enthronement as King and ends with the great tribulation. That the period of his coming includes all that is in between, as one cannot judge this by any specific elapsed time especially not in human terms. For example how could one judge Christs’ coming with reference to time? Would it be a 24 hr coming? Or several days? As you can see, one cannot pinpoint the exact duration of what constitutes his coming/presence. Therefore his coming can reasonably be expected to have a “beginning” and an “end” in human terms. At the “beginning” the slave is identified and commissioned to feed the domestics, and at the “end” the slave is appointed over all Christ’s belongings which includes the belongings in heaven. This all happens during Christ’s coming or presence. Please let me know if you understand what I am trying to say. If not I will try explaining it another way.

            To answer your question about the Christ going away, (as per illustrations of the talents and the virgins) since as you say and according to what I have just said he is still here and directing the work etc. Well in what sense was Christ going to be away? Could it ever be said that Christ would be away in the sense that he could not see and be ignorant of what was going on in the earth at any given time? That can’t be true. So it must be that he is away from the point of view of the slave (who have to keep on the watch) in the sense that his last part (“end”) of his coming (during the great tribulation and the inspection of the slave) is still in the future. Jesus knows what his slave is doing, if they are loyal, (and it is assumed they are because as you say, he is with them directing the preaching work Matthew 28:20) so he evidently doesn’t have to inspect them because he doesn’t know what they are like, but the inspection is from the point of view of the slave. The slave has to ask itself if it will be found approved, and keep vigilant and on the watch.

            • Brettstone

              Ana,
              Your answers are very thorough and of course reflect articles that I am of course familiar with… But your answer to the “Going Away” I would bet has no reference material that is WatchTower or other publications.
              Of course you were very descriptive and gave a good answer off the top of your head but the “Slave” has not given that explanation and therefore I would imagine that you would admit to it being your speculation and you will wait on the “Slave” of course!

              Notice please the March 2015 Watchtower study edition article “Learn from the illustration of the Talents” paragraph 3 and 4
              “3. The parable of the talents is one of four related illustrations recorded at Matthew 24:45 to 25:46.”
              “4. Our publications have long explained that the man, or the master, in the illustration is Jesus and that he traveled abroad when he ascended to heaven in 33 C.E.”

              Here the slave admits that in this illustration Jesus going away is 33 C.E.

              Notice Watchtower 1981 10/01 with regards to the Faithful Slave Illustration
              “According to Jesus’ words, the “steward” was appointed over the “body of attendants” before his master left on his journey. Accordingly, since the steward’s master pictured the Lord Jesus Christ, his “steward” was appointed before his departure by his ascension back to heaven 10 days before the Jewish festival of Pentecost, 33 C.E. The “steward” was to be alive and faithful at his appointed responsibility at the time of his master’s return. It has now been 19 centuries since the Lord Jesus Christ departed for his heavenly Father’s home. Hence, if anyone argues that the parabolic “steward” pictures an individual Christian man in the true Christian congregation, how could he still be alive today after having been appointed by Jesus Christ in 33 of our first century C.E.? No man has ever lived for that long, not even the famous Methuselah.—Gen. 5:27.”

              It should be noted again that in both locations of this illustration Matt 24:45-50 and Luke 12:41-48 the directions before the parable are to “keep on the watch”…

              Matt 24:42-44 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

              Luke 12:40 You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

              Ana, unless you work in the writing department at bethel your response in this matter is your reasoning and not the explanation or stance of the W/T…

              • Brettstone

                Rarely is the parable of the Faithful Slave referred to in the account of Luke chapter 12 of the WT publications because it demonstrates more clearly this is a parable and not literal prophecy..

                Luke 12:41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 44 I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.

                Notice the later part of verse 48…
                “Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.”

                Does this sound familiar?
                “The illustration of the Talents” Matt 25:29
                “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”

                If you read the illustration of the Talents it is nearly identical to the illustration of the Faithful Slave….

              • Anna

                Brettstone, sorry I was busy. No I do not work in the writing department, and it is not speculation on my part but a logical conclusion. In any case the book “God’s Kingdom Rules” on page 11 says this( parenthesis mine): ..”The START of his [Jesus’] presence would coincide with the ESTABLISHMENT of the Kingdom [1914]; and the CULMINATION of his presence with the COMING of the Kingdom [at great tribulation followed by Armageddon”. I would say that was pretty clear that the “WT” supports what I posted earlier, although I put it in my own words and understood it to be this way even before I read it in this book. As I say, it was the only logical conclusion to be drawn from all those scriptures we have been discussing. Evidently his coming/presence has a start and an end. It starts when the Kingdom is established at Jesus’ coronation and commission to the Faithful Slave and ends when the Kingdom and Jesus as King COMES to cleanse the earth including the judgement of the Slave followed by the Kingdom’s 1000 year rule over the earth.

                In the revised NWT the glossary term for “presence” in reference to Matthew 24:3 says this: “in some contexts in the Christian Greek Scriptures, this word describes the royal presence of Jesus Christ from the time of his invisible enthronement as Messianic King onward in the last days of this system of things. Christ’s presence is not simply a coming followed by a quick departure; rather, it covers a marked period of time”. So basically again what I was saying.

                • Brettstone

                  Ana
                  Clearly none of this gives a clear answer to his going away in 33C.E. Changing to he goes away in 1919 or afterward when he puts a faithful slave in charge of his household duty of feeding the domestics..
                  Especially the new March 2015 Talents parable which they admit to all four being in connection describes the Master going away 33C.E.
                  The problem comes when performing mental gymnastics to make a illustration fit a new doctrine..
                  We can only assume that in the near future it will change just like the 6 different generation explanations.

                • Brettstone

                  Ana
                  It’s funny because I never argued those points.. And this appears to be a sidestepping of the points made about when the Master goes away…
                  Did he go away in 33C.E. ?
                  Or did he go away in 1919?
                  Simple question… Nonsense to say he went away in 1919 or later if this is the date of his appointment of the slave to tend to or feed his domestics.
                  Especially when considering the Talents illustration and admitting the Masters going away took place in 33C.E.
                  I’m sure you read the new March 2015 article
                  Again read the parable of the faithful slave then read the Talents illustration of matthew 25… It’s a shame that these illustrations were divided by chapters which this division of course is not inspired..Jesus gave three illustrations in a row
                  Each illustrations are about those who would remain Watchful and vigilant.

                • Brettstone

                  The 1981 10/01 Watchtower article uses the fact that the slave would have to be more than 19 centuries old to be a single individual and this cannot be true so therefore it would have to be a composite group… An unbroken chain of spirit Begotton men appointed since his departure…

                  So now is it a single man cannot be more than a hundred years old serving as a slave since JESUS departure in 1919 (Though he didn’t go anywhere) so it must be a composite group.
                  1) an apostolic like succession
                  2) those selected automatically become slave

                  Remember the illustration speaks of a singular slave! If you take away the explanation given in that article (1981 Slave) you have to come up with another one!!!
                  MENTAL GYMNASTICS

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Brettstone – Well done. I was not aware of the 1981 article. Thanks for making the connections.

                    • Brettstone

                      Peter
                      That 1981 Article has been on my mind for sometime…
                      I remember when the Annual meeting was published on jw.org with the “New” understanding of the Slave appointment and time of it.
                      This article came to mind instantly because it was how we would prove that the Slave could not be an individual but would have to be a composite group of anointed Christians.
                      I decided to wait until the special March issue came out to have an explanation for all my questions since we are always to “To wait on the Slave”.
                      March came and no explanation as to how the slave would be given 1st appointment without the Master having gone away or how he would go away after appointment in 1919 yet still be present.
                      No explanation why just the Governing Body now and the list of questions goes on.
                      And this is especially why I know ANA has no answer to these questions because I wrote the branch with these questions and received no explanation.
                      I was told to wait on the slave! I was told they do not have the manpower to answer questions and I needed to talk to a mature older brother about what we believe!
                      Ana knows she/he has no explanation to these questions and if she brought them up to her Elders would be told “Wait on the Slave”
                      She certainly would not give those explanations to her fellow brothers and sisters without hearing “Wait on the slave and do not speculate”.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Brettstone – I can understand how this subject is important to you and others. If the brothers rely on the “Faithful Slave” to be accurate and build their understanding of teaching around that, it would seem to me to be quite distressing to be instructed with a new teaching, making the old teaching error. That would make for a scary and unstable foundation, unless one transfers authority from the “scriptures” to the “Faithful Slave” as do the Catholics with the Pope, the Mormons with their current President, and denominational churches with their administrative leaders.

                      Matthew 24:45-47 (NASV) “45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.”

                      I do not see how we can draw from this passage a first appointment (when the Master goes away) and a second appointment. Although related to “watchfulness,” the Parable of the Talents is a different lesson.

                      Matthew 25:14 (NASV) “14 For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.”

                      In the Parable of the Talents these talents are entrusted to each of the slaves. I believe that these talents represent opportunities for services provided to each “according to his own ability” (Matt 25:15). The reward is a future reward of rulership in the kingdom (Matt 25:23; Luke 19:17)
                      However, I will suggest that “he will put him in charge of all his possessions” (Matt 24:47) is different and talking about an appointment of a “Faithful Slave” at Jesus’ return during the Gospel Harvest, prior to the completion of the 144,000 and Armageddon. In my opinion, an application to Brother Russell fits much better than the Governing Body.

                      —————————

                      In Luke 12, Jesus is interpreting / explaining the 1335 days prophecy of Daniel 12. Three key words connect the two passages together. Luke 12:36-37 is the only New Testament passage containing these three key words (“Blessed,” “wait” and “coming”), linking to Daniel 12:12. As a matter of fact, it is also the only NT passage containing two key words (“Blessed” and “wait”). Statistically, what are the odds of a coincidence?

                      Dan 12:12 (NKJV) “Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty–five days.

                      Luke 12: (NKJV) 35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.

                      So Jesus was explaining that at the end of 1335 days (years, 539 AD to 1874 AD), he would return, and feed the servants “meat in due season.”

                      —————

                      Let’s look at another connection. Two expressions link Luke 12 to Rev 3.

                      Rev 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (note 7th Messenger to Laodicean Church relates to this message.)

                      Luke 12: (NKJV) 35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.

                      The explanation is that at the end of the 1335 days (1874), the manner in which the Servants will be fed meat in due season, this through the Faithful Steward (Luke 12:42) who is identified in Rev 3 via this connection as the “Seventh Messenger.” Who else, other than Charles Taze Russell?

                      —————

                      Matt 24:45 (NASV) “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?”

                      Interestingly, the word “household” in Luke 12:42 has an additional meaning of healing. In Rev 3:18 we are counseled to anoint our “eyes with eyesalve.” Eyesalve is a Phrygian powder mentioned by Galen, for which the medical school of Laodicea seems to have been famous, but the figurative reference is to the restoring of spiritual vision. So during this seventh Church period, at the time of Jesus parousia, there would be this great spiritual isight/feast available.

                      ——————

                      Matt 24:48-49 (NASV) “But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;”

                      Rutherford delayed Jesus’ second presence from 1874 to 1914 to have the prophecy apply more to him, then to Russell. He beat his fellow servants casting them out of Bethel and the Organization he had created, wherever theses brethren were holding faithful to the original Truth. He drank with the drunks literally and figuratively. He was known as a drunk and took on false doctrines – denying the Ransom for ALL and replacing it with the threat of Armageddon, stealing God’s promises to Natural Israel and replacing the “one hope (heavenly) of our calling” with an earthly hope, plus a myriad of rules to keep the brothers and sisters under tight control.

                    • Daz

                      Maybe the faithful slave is only now just started to dispense the spiritual food we need, maybe we are not looking in the right place or not accepting it or maybe it is a time still yet to come with regards to when the faithful slave is to feed the sheep.
                      There is so much confusion & division within the religious relms that people are being mislead, putting too much faith in religious leaders, organizations, we need to be alert & aware of what is going on around us, not just in the literal sense but in a spiritual sens tooe, the time is near & we need to be prepared, that is why Jesus instructs to keep on the watch (Luke 21:36, Mark 13:35, Matthew 25:13)
                      Food for thought.

                      Warm & loving regards,
                      Daz

                    • Brettstone

                      Peter
                      What I used to believe about this illustration is what prompted my questions with the changing doctrine of the JW organization.
                      I do believe that Russell certainly proved to be a “Faithful and discreet slave”, keeping on the watch and fulfilling his duties of feeding the household.
                      Rutherford I would say proved to be the opposite, demanding much of his fellow servants to please his tremendous ego.
                      And I would agree he introduced fear of second death, Armegeddon, removed ransom for all ect..
                      I would also say he enslaved his fellow servants to rules man made…

                      I believe though that this illustration has applied to all those anointed spirit begotton Christians taking the lead among the Bride of Christ from the 1st century down till today
                      Keeping on the watch and feeding the household.
                      Jesus said that those entrusted with much will have much demanded of them in the Luke 12 version of this illustration.
                      There would be those who would know what was expected of them yet would not preform their duties. And those who would not know and not preform but still recieve discipline.

                      Certainly Russell stands out clearly in mind because of the tremendous work he preformed. I do believe Jah used him, because the time was right to complete the gospel age and gather the last of the bride class.

                      At present I have difficulty with chronology, and that is my conscience. But I do believe we are living during Christ parousia, I do believe it is evident simply by recognizing bible prophecy.
                      I do believe Bible Students today have Bible truth and the Ransom for all is what connects all bible students as it did when Russell was alive and each congregation was autonomous.
                      I’m thankful that I believe there are other Bible Students like myself who have difficulty with chronology but believe we are living during christ parousia and yet are accepted allowing their conscience to be just that, their conscience!
                      I certainly study chronology and know and understand it but my faith rests in recognizing the signs given in prophecy. And I certainly don’t judge those who hold to it but accept their faith in it.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Brettstone – Thanks. You are quite a student of scripture and so reasonable in your approach. I will suggest that the language of Luke 12:35-37 urges a strictly second advent application. Verses 42-43 seem to me to show that at the second advent a Wise and Faithful STEWARD is appointed to dispense food to the SERVANTS of verse 37. It is interesting to me that the most important doctrine of the Bible in my view – the Ransom for ALL – was prominently taught from one source in the past 100+ years.

                      If after studying Bible Chronology it would bother your conscience to accept it, than you should not accept it. However, I will offer a thought. “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” by Carl Olof Johnson is based on his research from “The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings” by Edwin R. Thiele and the Parker and Dubberstein chronology which is the standard view of secular authorities. However, if we trust the standard view of secular authorities, then should we not accept the theory of evolution? Is the secular chronology reliable? Interestingly, in recent years, denominational Christian with no vested interest in the JW or Russell chronology are increasing debating and questioning the accuracy of these conclusions: Here are examples where Thiele’s work is questioned:
                      http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-chronology/2_09/
                      http://ldolphin.org/barrychron.html

                      Bible Students are taking notice of the works of Rolf J. Furuli. http://furuli.weebly.com/oslo-chronology-versus-parker-and-dubberstein.html
                      Some of us have ordered his impressive two volume set (over 1,000 pages) on “Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian and Persian Chronology Compared with the Chronology of the Bible” in which he refutes in several ways the popular Parker and Dubberstein chronology.

                      Although some like myself find the accuracy and confirmation of time prophecy faith strengthening, it should not be an area of judging and dividing brothers and sisters in Christ. Thanks for sharing. We always love hearing from you.

                    • Brettstone

                      Peter
                      It is funny you should mention Carl Johnsson’s book “Gentile time reconsidered”, as I have been reading it.
                      Peter what are your thoughts on Jeremiah 25:8-11

                      “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘“Because you would not obey my words, 9 I am sending for all the families of the north,” declares Jehovah, “sending for King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin. 10 I will put an end to the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing from them, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’

                      Specifically verses 9 and 11 seem to indicate that the 70 year period is the surrounding nations including Jerusalem, servitude to Babylon and not Jerusalem’s laying desolate 70 years…

                      It would therefore coincide with secular history when Babylons domination of those nations began in 609 BCE and ended in 539 BCE

                    • Brettstone

                      Peter..
                      An additional scripyure that’s important is one that can be translated one of two way’s

                      American Standard Version
                      Jer 29:10 For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

                      King James Version
                      Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

                      Either “At Babylon” or “On Babylon”

                  • Anna

                    Brettstone, sorry if I miss understood what you were saying. I was in a bit of a rush reading over your posts. I have re-read them carefully now and what I think you are saying is: the slaves with the talents are the same as the Faithful and discreet Slave in Matthew 24. Am I correct? Therefore if Christ went away in 33 CE and commissioned his disciples with doing business with the talents he also commissioned them with spiritually feeding the sheep, right? Well he did, but does that mean he was saying THEY were the Faithful and discreet Slave? Surely he wasn’t asking them that question, as Jesus commissioned the Apostles DIRECTLY and in person. Jesus’ question was pertaining to the time of the end when this would need to be clarified. Who was the faithful and discreet Slave among all those professing to be feeding the flock of God during the time of the end? The pope? Other religious leaders?

                    Yes I have read the march WT. It says the three illustrations, although related, highlighted slightly different aspects of the same thing (the Kingdom). The Virgins: readiness for the Kingdom. The Slaves with talents: productivity for the Kingdom. The Faithful slave: provision of spiritual food for the subjects of the Kingdom. And they all have to be vigilant and watchful for the masters coming.

                    I suppose you liked the idea of the explanation in the 1981 WT better than this new explanation. What is the biggest difference? Wouldn’t you say the difference is that accountability for feeding the sheep has been placed squarely on the GB now? Of what benefit is it for the GB? Would they have more “power” and gain the monopoly over spiritual food? Is that what you are saying? Is that your problem?? The old understanding didn’t lessen their “power” in any way, nothing has changed in that sense. But the new understanding HAS taken the accountability away from the rest of the anointed and placed it only on the GB. But ALL the anointed receive the same reward in heaven, regardless of whether they were members of the GB or not. They all inherit the master’s belongings. However the members of the GB may lose everything if they don’t do their job properly. Something I would not like to take upon myself if I had the other choice.

                    • Brettstone

                      Ana
                      I did not say the talents illustration and the discreet slave illustration are one in the same!
                      Again it’s simple the explanation of when the Master left is the same time 33 C.E.
                      I said the talents illustration and Slave illustration promote the same idea and that is Watchfulness and carrying out the duties assigned.
                      Your tactic of answering in part or redirecting is the same trick as we are trained in the reasoning book and elsewhere, I’m not going to play that game.
                      Jesus did not come go away in 1919, yet still remain here while carrying out all his duties as king and head of the congregation.
                      Watchtower has no explanation for that and yours is a long shot at best and requires blindness to follow and explain it performing mental gymnastics.

                      How did Jesus go away leaving the slave alone at his duties yet was still directing the Org? Nonsense

                      How do you explain the slave is not an individual if you leave the old understanding? And how is the slave selected in some apostolic type succession?

                      How do you come up with 1919 as year of appointment? Have you read the finnished Mystery 7th Vol. If so would JESUS have chosen the ones who wrote that nonsense?

                      In Matthew 24/25 JESUS gives 3 related illustrations in a row. Why are the other 2 just illustrations and this one prophecy?

                      Why would the talents master going away be in 33 C.E. And the same understanding be of the slave illustration, then change with no explanation, at least a reasonable one?

                      I could go on and on with questions you could never answer and when ya do find a way to jump through the hoops it will change on you again…..

                    • Anna

                      Bettstone, I assure you there was no redirecting trickery on my part, a lot of you on here are so suspicious. I was genuinely trying to figure out what you were saying. (And I am not a she/he. I am a she).

                      1.Although Jesus left physically, he never left spiritually speaking. He says in Matthew 28:19,20 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” Thus it can be said he was directing the preaching/ disciple making work then, and is now. But he has comme in Kingdom Power in the time of the end (as the scriptures say).
                      2.His appointment of the FS was made at the time of the end (as the scriptures say) which began with him being enthroned as King (as the scriptures say).
                      3.The illustration about the FS is prophesy because when Jesus told it, it was still in the future (the time of the end). The other two applied not only in the future but to the disciples in 33 CE.

                      You obviously have an explanation of the Faithful and Discreet Slave that you find more agreeable and attractive. So we might as well leave it at that.

            • Brettstone

              Ana,
              You stated “The reason for that understanding is that in the first century there was no reason to ask that question about who was supplying spiritual food as it was clearly apparent that the apostles were. The gift of the holy spirit enabled them to perform miraculous tasks. It was evident that they were the ones chosen by Jesus and Jehovah to do the dispensing of spiritual food as they preached about the Kingdom and wrote the rest of the Bible.”

              Ana, When Jesus asked the question it was around 32 C.E. according to the watchtower
              W/T 1981 10/01
              “Who Really Is the Faithful Steward, the Discreet One?”
              Paragraph 2
              “The question was first raised in the Middle Eastern land of Israel. The time was in the year 32 of our Common Era, between the Israelite celebration of tabernacles in the autumn and the festival of the dedication of their rebuilt temple at Jerusalem in the early winter.”

              The apostles were of course just babes at this time and had not written the Christian greek scriptures… they would soon be scattered and leave this work assigned to do… and need a visible resurrection to begin to develop the kind of faith needed to stay loyal until death and receive a crown of life. I believe they needed to be watchful and stay alert because there apparently were more spirit begotten Christians in the first century to look after than there is today…
              So would they need to display watchfulness yes.. would they need to be discreet and feed fellow spirit begotten sheep yes… Remember Jesus words to Peter feed my little sheep.
              I would say miracles and gifts proved little in the first century since every congregation appeared to be infested with those who were dangerous to the flock. Those who abused the gifts and those who were thorns to the very apostles.
              Vigilance, faithfulness and being discreet slaves to the Master who had gone away was needed then as it is today especially since they face the end of that age or system “A tribulation like never before”

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Anna – Bible Students are not divided and have not come to naught as you portray. We have an annual General Convention in Pennsylvania, an International Convention in Europe, and dozens of conventions annually around the country. Check them out at this link:
          http://hosting.brownbearsw.com/WB/Conventions

          You can attend many of these conventions live over the Internet. Join us this weekend for the Chicago Convention. We are just the same as the Bible Students of 1914. Our doctrines have not changed. You can find them in Russell’s Studies in the Scriptures. We have the same love and Christian Liberty as these early Bible Students. How is it we are all in general harmony and agreement? Where the Holy Spirit binds brethren together, there is no need for a central and dictatorial controlling organization.

          You said that the evil slave is “the same slave if he changes.” Has there ever been a time or will there come a time in the JW Organization where that warning applies? Isn’t this application inconsistent with the two other slaves mentioned in Luke 12:47-48.

          You asked, “Who is feeding those various offshoots of the Bible Students?” What offshoots? Today there is basically the International Bible Students Association (not Organization) and The Layman’s groups with whom we generally have a good relationship. We are being feed by the scriptures, holy spirit, brethren and the Studies in the Scriptures.

          Does it bother you that we are so happy and organized without any earthly central organization? Yes, our numbers are small, but isn’t that what you would expect if there will only be 144,000 in the glorified body of Christ?

          • Jacqueline

            Br Peter, this is a lot but since Anna didn’t know what they teach I thought I would bring it up to date including what Brettstone mentioned. You can’t miss a meeting at the kingdom hall as the truth will change and be something totally different in just a few years not brighter but a dog to an orange type change.July 15, 2013 Study Edition except where noted>

            “IF EVER THAT EVIL SLAVE. . .” Jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave—namely, overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food at the proper time. Jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability. (Luke 12:48) Hence, he concluded his illustration about the faithful and discreet slave with a powerful warning.
            *** w04 3/1 p. 13 pars. 2-3 ‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test! ***
            The expression “that evil slave” draws our attention to Jesus’ preceding words about the faithful and discreet slave. Yes, the “evil slave” came from the ranks of the faithful slave. How?
            CHANGE: Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. Granted, some individuals have manifested a spirit similar to that of the evil slave described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Rev. 7:9) But such ones do not make up an evil slave class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave. His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.
            *** w94 7/1 p. 11 par. 10 At Which Table Are You Feeding? ***
            Food on the table of demons is poisonous. Consider, for example, the food dispensed by the evil slave class and the apostates. It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be, for the apostates have stopped feeding at Jehovah’s table

            “Those who make up the composite slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward. Along with the rest of the 144,000,they will share Christ’s
            vast heavenly authority”

            An evil slave class
            Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave class
            Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. Granted, some individuals have manifested a spirit similar to that of the evil slave
            described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Rev. 7:9) But such ones do not make up an evil slave
            class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave. His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.
            Notice that Jesus introduces the warning with the words “if ever.” One scholar says that in the Greek text, this passage “for all practical purposes is a hypothetical
            condition.” In effect, Jesus was saying: ‘If the faithful and discreet slave were ever to mistreat his fellow slaves in these ways, this is what the master will do when
            he arrives.’ (See also Luke 12:45.)
            However, the composite faithful and discreet slave has continued to keep on the watch and to provide nourishing spiritual food.
            Jesus promised that small group of men that a fine reward awaited them for their faithfulness.They would share his throne ofkingly authority. But years later, he indicated that all of the 144,000 will sit on thrones and share his rulership. (Rev.1:1; 3:21) Similarly, as stated at Matthew 24:47, he promised that a small group of men—the anointed brothers who makeup the faithful slave—will be appointed over all his belongings. In reality, all of the 144,000 will share his vast heavenly authority.—Rev. 20:4,6.

          • Anna

            Peter,
            I was not saying that the Bible Students have come to naught (and I know that this is where our opinions diverge greatly) as they have come to be nearly 8 million. What I was saying was that those who broke away from them have either come to naught, or have fragmented into several Bible discussion groups. One of the greatest instigators of trouble at Bethel after Brother Russell’s death, PSL Johnson, founded his own group, the Laymen’s Home Missionary Movement (as you know).Where is this group now some 90 or so years later? His group has not come very far. (I know they have a website and still publish their magazine and have a few conventions a year).
            I don’t quite know what you mean with your question: “Isn’t this application inconsistent with the two other slaves mentioned in Luke 12:47-48”. Are you saying Matthew 24:48, 49 is inconsistent with this scripture in Luke?
            Can you tell me, if according to you the slave is composed of the Bible, holy spirit, the bretheren and Studies in the Scriptures, could Matthew 24:49 be applied to it? Does the Bible and the holy spirit have the potential of ever becoming evil? That is not possible. It also cannot apply to Studies in the Scriptures as that is a closed book. It cannot become something else to what it already is, and I am sure it is not evil. So surely the slave must be someone/something else.
            As for the Christian congregation only consisting of the 144’000, well, you know we differ there too as I believe the congregations are also composed of an unnumbered great crowd, who have an earthly hope.
            Of course it does not bother me that you are happy, but I don’t know about your organization to preach the Good news of the Kingdom. Yes, the holy spirit binds the brothers and sisters together, but for any work to be accomplished organization is a necessity.
            Also, thank you for the invitation, “But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light that grows brighter and brighter until full daylight” Prov 4:18. Brother Russell knew there was still more, that his knowledge of the truth had not reached full daylight yet, and neither have we. So I could not possibly stay with the doctrines of the Bible Students as these have not progressed beyond Brother Russell’s death.

          • Anna

            P.S. By the way Peter, you were asking me about “what offshoots”. I am using the term found on this website where it is stated, I quote: “With all of its offshoots, the Bible Student movement today numbers in excess of ten thousand spread over forty or more countries”.

  • Does any one know if the watch tower benifits financialy be it tax breaks or other wise by the amount of volunteer feild service hours turned in because they sure push for those reports. Thank you

    • Jacqueline

      Hi Curious and thanks for commenting. I just heard of the letter for monetary contributions that was just read.
      Think about “the power of numbers” if every publisher drops in all the donations they get or put into the contribution box money for the mags they get to leave in the doors, that is a benefit in money. If they stop bringing in new people the numbers will fall dramatically and so will the contributions. Plus the average witness feel they earn their salvation by door to door,they are not aware “THE GIFT IS FREE, THANKS TO THE RANSOM FOR ALL”. These who work hard will stay, if they stop to do research or use that time for some serious prying and reading of the Bible, their eyes will open up. That is why they don’t encourage studying in groups. (I believe November KM 2008 or 09.) BTW, They don’t get your reports that is for your elders and the CO to gauge your spirituality.
      As far as non profit status, hmmm, I don’t know.

  • Mike

    Ernesto I find your actions personally to be extremely self serving and not reflecting any positive qualities of the bible. Your actions instead will make others support JW’s and make those may have left to seek additional truths to be lumped in with people like you. While I disagree on certain teachings of JW’s this blog and many others believe in many of the same things. However, while I might disagree with certain things and have stepped aside right now I respect their right to worship and assemble the same way I respect others. While they may not respect my right to test it’s not our right to ridicule or mock those who are sincerely trying.

    As I read the “and a lot of fun” my stomach turned and only felt pity for you since I felt so much hate in your post. I am not judge nor know your heart but your actions are not funny, actually your actions are going to make Satan and his demons very happy instead. Anyone, and I mean on this blog, online, in person other religions, etc who tear down others by mockery or slander are not ones God approves but exhibit traits of the opposite. I hope you all consider this as your actions.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Mike – Thanks.  You have a nice spirit and stated yourself better than I could. 

      When Christians disagree, we find good general counsel in Is a 1:18 (NASV) which says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “

      • Mike

        I wish I can take credit but actually I observed another site from an elder who still serves but also has questions on material and impressed that while they question certain things he does not allow ANY to use his blog as a vicious attack board. Everyone has to keep their discourse civil and responses back by bible reasoning which I greatly admire. They can be direct but it still most be civil and without anger. If I attack someone viciously then I am no better than some who I feel do that to me. It’s a LONG ROAD for people like me but I’m trying…

        • Jacqueline

          Understood Mike, and I guess that is why Br. Peter responded rapidly. I am sort of slow, I saw the comment very early this morning but I have to think about stuff first. At first glance it seems like well whatever they want to do. But, it does not address the real problem.
          In psychology that is one of our main goals is to get the person to address the exact cause, person or thing. Anything else is like striking at the air. And I could just visualize my poor little grandchildren being afraid in such an environ.
          Also I have learned if you have to deal with the governingbody to get them off your back you have to address the only thing that they respect and that is their pocketbook or wallet in a court of law. All this other stuff does not affect them at all. They live in an Ivory Tower, these are multimillionaires with bodyguards and drivers.
          The letters written to Hitler by Rutherford got the German brothers in trouble but not the hierarchy of the society. The United States put them in jail until they recanted and stopped printing subversive info about the government in 1919. So I don’t think it is the way to go.
          Knowledge about the truth is the way to help those that find something wrong and want to get out.
          I never go after anyone and will help family get to their conventions even. Take Care. I am going out to dinner so might not see your comment for a while. Jacqueline

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Mike, first of all if you are the mike who’s Mom just died we are all looking for your number and address to send condolences. If not ignore this.
      Now on your comment. The average witness that attends the convention is doing so as a family and because they believe in Jehovah. To disrupt their meeting to me is unloving. I have Children with children that really look forward to their conventions. They have a ball.
      So I agree with you also as does Br. Peter.

      • Mike

        My mother died in 2000 but yes I did contact you about 7 months ago and talked with someone who was local to Sacramento before they kind of fell out of contact. I know my questions were many and some questions more direct which I think frustrated him a bit but my tone never was improper even if the questions were straight forward.

        I am still interested in learning more but there are MANY questions that need to be answered for me to feel comfortable. Feel free to pass on my email address to anyone who has the patience to answer a plethora of questions then rebuttal questions from the answers. lol It doesn’t have to be someone local yet as info is what I want and then afterwards it could move to the local level. Thanks

        • Jacqueline

          Thanks Mike for answering. There is a dear Mike that would come on Wednesday study when we were on Skype. He signed for his mother to get a blood transfusion although she was a witness. Her husband a witness let him do as he pleased. His Mom was young and this Mike LOVED HIS MOTHER. He did everything he could to help her. Well we heard she succumbed to Cancer last week and many of us wanted his contact info. I will check with Rick Feason and try to get it. But when we saw your name we said wow this is mike.

  • Ernesto

    Never before in the history of apostasy has there been a plan like this. Be a part of this historic event by joining ex-JWs as we stand outside of JW district conventions everywhere this year, neatly dressed and groomed pretending to be JWs, with signs directed at “worldly” passersby. These signs are going to declare actual JW beliefs and doctrine in the raw, without any sugar coating. Examples of such signs include “Blood transfusions are the work of Satan! Anybody that receives a blood transfusion will not inherit Jehovah’s Kingdom!” and “Jehovah’s day of wrath is imminent! He will kill you and the buzzards will eat your flesh unless you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” We will also have Watchtower publications to back up these statements.
    No, we are not going to engage or argue with JWs. We are going to “be JWs” and present their horrible doctrines to the public. And if any “worldlys” get in our face about it we are going to vehemently defend JWs and the Watchtower by shouting right back at them.
    Of course the Watchtower already knows about our plans and is taking measures to hamper our efforts but if we remain diligent, this will be a success (and a lot of fun!) Be there!

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Ernesto – I think I can appreciate what you people are trying to do and I understand how you may think this would be effective, however I cannot feel good about deception, as this is the adversary’s method. 

      2 Timothy 3:13 (ESV) “While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”

      Ephesians 4:15(NCV) “Speaking the truth with love, we will grow up in every way into Christ, who is the head.”

      Matthew 5:44 (NASV) “I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”

    • Jacqueline

      Ernesto, I understand where you are coming from but you are stooping to the level of the governingbody. Don’t let them do that to you. I went to court with them and these were the tactics they used against me in court. The judge however saw through it and ruled against them.
      I was devastated to see them attack me as an individual and many of the friends at the conventions will just be devastated and feel insecure even threatened. I did.
      On here we are not attack individuals. The system called the organization and the governingbody members change often. So it is not the individuals it is the system.
      The higher ups are the problem and only a mighty one can deal with that. Yes I say people should be warned if they are asking. And told if they come to us. I am not a coward in that regard. But I personally would not actively go after them because you are not hitting the Target which is the system, the hierarchy.
      The poor witnesses with their little children will feel so intimidated. But it is your choice, you have this freedom, but Br. Peter supplied great scriptural advice. In loving concern.

    • Dupin

      Ernesto:

      I do understand your desire to inform folks of the false teachings of Jehovah’s Witness and especially those which harm people in the name of God’s service. However, I’m not sure your methods do the most good.

      While I was still a Witness I heard a statement on television, which really made an impression on me in part because I did try to act in agreement with it. I think it was Dr. Phil, who made the comment in an interview that if anybody came to his door trying to get him to join them, he had to be able to see in them how their faith made them better as people and happier, more fulfilled. That really got me thinking.

      Does your method for calling attention to the problems in the Watchtower really show that your life is now better and that you try to shine light on the Darkness in that organization out of love? Or are you falling into the trap the Watchtower can use to paint you as a bitter, hateful, Apostate liar, as it does all of us “apostates” no matter what we do? Ask yourself that and whether you are truly past whatever the Watchtower leadership did to you?

      Jesus told his followers, and that includes us, too “let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:16) That, Ernesto, is the key to helping others and is very much in line with what Dr. Phil said. There are plenty of ways to let people know apart from standing in front of assembly sites and tickling their egos because members will see it as persecution from bitter people who hate them.

      There are forums like this one where help for those JWS who want to leave and are looking for truth and help around the internet which don’t deal in misinformation or hate. You can start a blog of your own where you can provide truth on any number of issues involving the Witnesses in a way as befits a humble man of God if you are still trying to see yourself that way. People, both Witness and non-witnes search for the truth about Jehovah’s Witnesses online. You can be a positive influence that way if you want.

      Dupin

      • Anonymous

        Amen Dupin!

      • Jacqueline

        Dupin I agree. The PEN is mightier than the sword or confrontation. I know one major website that is still up although the writer is dead. All of the comments are still there for all to see for at least 10years that the site is paid up. We know the Bible has been very effective as the Pen is powerful.

    • Frank

      Hi Ernesto,
      I can appreciate your desire to let the public “know the truth” about the Organization. However, there are various ways to get things done. Dupin put an excellent case for doing things the “right” way, backed up by the other comments.

      On the other hand, the Organization has become a master at “expediency” – they even coined a high-sounding phrase for it – “Theocratic warfare”. Strange, when you think of it. They claim to be backed by the All-powerful Creator – yet they need to resort to expediency (even cunning and trickery with words) to get things done. Is their God not as all-powerful as they claim? Or, is it perhaps that they are promoting their own methods and solutions? Go figure.

      At the deepest level, this is where most honest people find they have to part company with the WT Organization – expediency is contrary to basic Christianity.

      That being said, public displays outside conventions are exactly the tactics Rutherford advocated – placarding outside churches on Sundays. It was pure expediency – and certainly got attention – but it was not Christian. And therefore ultimately doomed to failure. The Organization is where it is today – lost, directionless, demoralized, dispirited – because of the direction it took way back then.

      As a number of posts have mentioned – real happiness (for yourself & others) comes from being positive, from doing good.
      Best wishes.

      • Jacqueline

        Frank, I emailed Ernesto and alerted him to your comment. I was one of those that wore the placards and looking back they were unkind at times. We were a pushy in your face religion. Although I was a child I still am ashamed at the many persons I aided to come to such an organization, our tactics were not Christian at all. I agree, I would just leave the organization and it’s meetings alone as the persons attending have freedom to assemble in the different countries. But I guess it has to do with your experiences with this powerful corporate organization. Take Care. Jacqueline.

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