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Are Prophetic Date Predicters False Prophets?

 

Fundamentalist Christians take a hard line on setting dates for the second advent of Christ. Failed date-setters are labeled as “false prophets.” What are the implications of these accusations? Are the fundamentalist Christians consistent in their position?

Dates Predicted by

Martin Luther, John Wesley, Joseph Wolff

 The fathers of Protestant denominations were keenly interested in Christ’s return and attempted to determine its date. For example, Martin Luther predicted Jesus would return in 300 years from his time. This would have placed the return of Christ between 1830 and 1850. [1] Like many of his contemporaries in the latter 1700s, John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist denomination, predicted 1836 for the date of the Second Advent. [2] Certainly, few would consider Luther or Wesley false prophets.

Read more here:

43 comments to Are Prophetic Date Predicters False Prophets?

  • Daz

    Hi Peter, I was wondering how you would explain these scriptures, to me this clearly says we cannot not really know for sure when Christ returns:

    “It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7)

    Matthew 24:44-47 & Luke 12:40-44
    “Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

    “Keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

    Warm & loving regards,
    Daz

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Daz – I do not want to tell you how to think or what to beleive. I can only tell you how I understand these scriptures.

      For Daniel, the meaning of his book was sealed and he could not understand it Daniel 12:4, 8). However, in the end times, “the wise will understand” (Dan 12:10)

      Per the Apostals and early Church, it was not for them to know the “times and seasons.” (Acts 1:7). At the end of the Gospel age, the opposite is true.

      1 Thess 5: (NKJV)
      1 ¶ But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
      2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
      4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

      Now yes, Jesus did come in an hour that no one thought. It was only after Jesus returned in 1874 that the brethren began to realize he was already present.

      Notice how at the time of Jesus return, his followers are watching for him. Then after his return, notice how he has them recline at table and feed them a great feast of truth.

      Luke 12: (NKJV) “35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.”

      The same promise is made to the 7th Church at the time of His Second Presence.

      Rev 3:20 (NKJV) “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”

      What is this food that we are now being fed? My opinion is that it is the “Studies in the Scriptures” series. ONLY there we have the most important doctrine in the Bible taught, “the Ransom for ALL.” And now the book of Daniel has finally been unsealed and understood. It is explained in Volumne 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, “Thy Kingdom Come.”

      We are just starting a phone call in study on this book Wednesday night. Everyone is invited to join us. Check it out by clicking HERE.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, thankyou for your reply. So basically you are talking past tense regarding Jesus’ returned, nobody knew at the time he returned until after it had happened & by looking back at events/signs & scriptual evidence you conclude that Jesus has indeed returned. So I see now that you do not dispute that you knew not the day or the hour but you knew he had returned by what occurred afterward.

        Warm & loving regards,
        Daz

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Thanks. For the sake of arguement, let us say that Jesus has NOT yet returned, however that He will return later TODAY. Will you know He has arrived? How long will it take you to figure it out? How will you know He is really here? Will unbelievers realize he is here? Will you look up and visibly see Him in the clouds?

          You don’t have to answer all these questions. I am just encouraging you to think about what it is that will make you feel certain He is here once He has arrived.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, thankyou for your reply, I totally see your reasoning & it certainly makes sense. So does 1914 hold any significance in your view apart from the start of the 1st world war? Also may I ask why some bible students beleive the same as you do regarding the return of Christ in 1874 & some still believe he is yet to come?

            Warm & loving regards,
            Daz

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Daz – To me, the primary significance of the Times of the Gentiles prophecy is explained by Jesus in Luke 21:24 (NKJV) “… Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

              So according to Jesus, the “Times of the Gentiles” is all about the Gentile domination over Jerusalem / Israel. This began when Babylon destroyed the nation and took the people captive and ended in 1914 when World War I began to break up the Gentile domination over Israel. By 1917, as a result of the war, the British Empire issued the Balfour Declaration setting aside land in so called Palestine for the nation of Israel.

              Other significant events in 1914 relate to the breaking up of Nebuchadnezzar’s image (Daniel 2). Between WWI and WW2 the European Empires lost their colonies. As a result of WWI Kings lost their thrones and/or power and Church/State rule ended (This is the so called Divine Right of Kings).

              You asked why some no longer believe Jesus returned in 1874. Daz – I learned a long time ago, not to worry about what other people believe, but rather to worry about what the Bible teaches. Back in 1912, some Bible Students divided over disagreements on the covenants. Schisms will always be a possibility where there is Christian liberty, however I personally believe the Holy Spirit has held the International Bible Students Association together. We have no human central management, administration or authority. Jesus is our head, under Jehovah’s authority.

              I hesitate to give my opinion as to why former Bible Students (over the past 100 years have split away from the movement and rejected the idea that Jesus returned. I think there are reasons other than what the scriptures teach on the subject; however you would have to ask them for their opinion. They would have a different point of view on the reasons than I have. I have made attempts to dialogue on the topic with many of these former Bible Students. It is hard to find those who really want to dig into the scriptures and discuss the differences. I think I do understand the different perspectives they place on scriptures. The link below presents scriptures they would use to prove Jesus has not yet returned, however I present the Bible Student answer as I see it.
              http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/Manner-of-Return.pdf

              Hope this helps Daz. God bless your studies!

              • Daz

                Hi Peter, once again thankyou for such an informative honest reply. I hope you don’t mind all the questions I am asking as I just want the truth & I too am one that digs. Although I always had reservations about some of what the watchtower oganization taught there is still certain teachings that are seem to get deeply ingrained & it takes time for that to diminish. I commend you for always replying & for the scriptual references you use.
                I will certainly check ot the link you kindly posted.

                Warm & loving regard,
                Daz

      • Dan

        HI Peter, I think that when someone arrives to the conclusion that Christ had no arrived yet, is missing two important expressions of him regarding his arrival 1) Mathew 24:3-8 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
        4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.+ 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.+
        JESUS WELL KNEW THAT WOULD BE WARS ALONG THE HISTORY, BUT HE SAID THE END IN NOT YET
        BECAUSE WHEN THE PRESENCE REALLY WILL TAKE PLACE THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
        7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+ and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
        NOW JESUS WELL KNEW WHY THIS ENORMOUS WAR WOULD TAKE PLACE, AND IT WAS BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THESE WORLD WAR WILL HAPPEN BY THE FURY OF SATAN OF BEING HURLED OUT OF HEAVEN AND CONFINED TO THE EARTH NEIGHBORHOOD SO HI GAVE WITH EXTRAORDINARY ACCURACY A SIGN O HIS PRESENCE (THE 1914 WORLD WAR – For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom AND DE 1939 y 1945. SECOND WORLD WAR WAS ONLY WHAT WAS STARTED ON 1914 AND EVIDENTLY DURING HIS PRESENCE YET) THE OTHER POINT INS SEEING AT REVELATION 12:7-8 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail,* nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. AND REVELATION 12:12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea,+ because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

        • Daz

          Hi Dan, I enjoyed reading your view & understanding on this subject. I am still studying this aspect of Jesus’ prophecy but at present I lean towards that he has yet to return, here is why:

          Matthew 24:30 Jesus said,
          “And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
          Matthew 24:27, “For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be”
          Matthew 26:64, “Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, from henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
          Mark 13:26, “And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.”
          Mark 14:62, “Then Jesus said: “I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
          Luke 21:27, “And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”
          1 Thessalonians 4:16, “Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
          Hebrews 9:28, “So also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many, and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.”
          Acts 1:11, “And they said: Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”
          Revelation 1:7, “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him”
          I understand the understanding that he maybe invisable with regards to “coming
          In Acts 1:11 is is described as, “in the same manner” the translation from the original language is literal & means in “the same way.” It doesn’t say every eye will see Him at all at the same time. Why could not Christ Jesus not appear to everyone at the same time? Surely to suggest this is under-estimating the sheer power & capabilities of our heavenly Father Jehovah. Sometimes it’s easy to get caught up in think in a human mind-set, ANYTHING is possible when it comes to Jehovah. An example: Elvis Presley performed a benefit concert back in 1973 called “Aloha From A Hawaii”. This concert was aired & shown in more than 40 nations via satellite. This was the first of it’s kind & never been done before that so many nations saw Elvis in concert all at the same time! My point is, if man can perform such a great feat way back then how more-so is it possible for Jehovah God to create something far far greater & magnificent with regards to the Parousia of Christ Jesus. As I said I am by no means an expert on this subject as I am still studying & learning but this is the conclusion I have come to so far.

          Warm & loving regards,
          Daz

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Daz – Thanks for some good followup comments to Dan. You bring up some great points, which are discussed on Volumes 2 & 3 and also some here:

            We each have the Christian Liberty to come to our own conclusions and I do not think Jehovah will destroy us if we make a mistake in how we interpret these passages. Whatever mistakes I may have today, Jehovah can correct in the kingdom if not sooner. I think that those moved by the Holy Spirit will have a desire and burning in the belly so to speak to study deeply to understand as best we can.

            I will give you a brief general response to consider as it would take quite a large response to treat each of these passages.

            I agree with you that even though Jesus is an invisible spirit being, He could find a way to reveal Himself to all mankind in some visual manner if He so chooses. We do not want to limit his power. However, the real question is, will He choose to do so. On the surface many Bible passages look like a slam dunk to reveal that clearly Jesus will reveal Himself to all mankind in a very visible and dramatic manner. However, we remember that Jesus answered the disciples that He spoke in parables because it was only for His disciples to understand.

            Matt 13 (NASV) ” 10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”

            So it would be my expectation that a surface reading of Bible passages will not necessarily reveal the true meaning. However, the Holy Spirit can move the Lord’s people through deeper study together to harmonize and understand all the passages.

            Jesus is described as coming like a thief in the night (quietly and unobserved), as in the Days of Noah (people unaware) and as the gradual sunrise at the dawn of a new day (not lightning).

            I will suggest to you that a deep study will reveal that Jesus second presence (parousia) occurs in two phases:
            1) Epiphany (Bright Shining) – Revealed to his followers at the time when Jesus comes to take His bride beginning with the sleeping saint (1 Thess 4:16-17 and for the Harvest to begin.
            2) Apocalypse (Revealment to mankind). Marriage of the bride Has taken place. Jesus comes with all His holy messengers (the bride) to be revealed to the world (Matt 25:31; 2 Thess 1:7), first by rescuing natural Israel from destruction (Ezek 38 & 39)

            HOW DO WE EXPLAIN REV. 1:7?

            Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
            (NKJ) [They will see him through the evidences of his return, beginning at the time of Israel’s deliverance (Eze 38:22,23; 39:6,7,27)]

            Heb 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. (NKJ)

            Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (NKJ)

            THE WORLD WON’T SEE JESUS WHEN HE RETURNS

            John 14:19 A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. (NKJ)

            Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: (NKJ)

            I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
            (NKJ) [This promise is made to the Christians, not the world.]

            John 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (NKJ) [Since he gave his flesh as the ransom (corresponding) price in place of Adam, he cannot take it back.]

            ARE THESE SCRIPTURES LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

            1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV)

            II Th 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (KJV)

            Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (KJV)

            Rev 19:11-16 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (NKJ)

            The only way to harmonize these four scriptures is to take them symbolically. Otherwise they contradict each other. These scriptures are explained in detail in the Studies in the Scriptures series.

            • Daz

              Hi Peter, I hope you are well, it’s always a pleasure to reply to a post & share my views & what I have learned & come to understand. Thankyou also for your in-depth reply, as usual you make alot of sense with regards to the scriptual evidence you present. As I said I am still learning so my mind is still open to reasoning. Matthew 17:2 says “And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light.” Could this not be an indication that Christ will be in a visible on His return?
              Jesus said, “Look! I am with you all the days until the end of time.” Doesn’t this indicate or imply that Jesus has been & still is invisbly with his disciples/followers?
              2 Thessalonians 2:8 it states the manifestation of his presence, another translation is “the brightness of his coming” which can be found in the New King James Bible. If His return why would it described as “the brightness of his coming” or “manifestation” which is a revealing/revelation, if invisible then surely these scriptual expressions are contadictory? 1 Peter 4:13 says, “On the contrary, go on rejoicing for as much as you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.” Also at 1 Peter 1:6-8 it says, “In this fact you are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, you have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
              Another example of His manifestation is at 2 Timothy 4:1 says, “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom”. Colossians 3:3-4 is interesting as this says, “For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God. When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.” So will these ones not be made as visible revealing, a manifestation, with regards to these ones being glorified with Jesus has yet to happen, well that’s is my understanding of it.

              Warm & loving regards,
              Daz

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Daz – Thanks for some great scriptures! These scriptures do appear to support your view that Christ will appear in a visible manner when he returns.

                The reason I have a different point of view, is that I am bringing other scriptures into the picture to try to harmonize the topic completely. However, we each may reason in different ways and it is up to each one of us to do the best we can to come to the correct conclusion. In areas where I am mistaken, I do hope I can be open to correction. Our discussion is evidence that brothers and sisters don’t have to agree on everything in order to have loving Christian fellowship with each other.

                To start my way of looking at this, can we agree that Jesus and the bride of Christ when raised from the dead are invisible to the human eye and cannot be seen without some special miraculous effort on their part to reveal themselves? http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/11/11/does-jesus-have-a-body-of-flesh-3/

                2 Peter 3:3-4 (Amplified) says, “3 ¶ To begin with, you must know {and } understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, people who walk after their own fleshly desires 4 And say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.” Continuing with verse 10 (Rotherham) “10 Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,–in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered.”

                Notice that at the time of Jesus return as “a thief” in the night (1 Thess 5:2) that “all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.” Since the 20th century to day, can we honestly say that? Israel restored as a nation, Transportation, information, technology, Internet, mobile devices (Daniel 12:1-4). Haven’t we seen the “Heavens” (government) dissolving – destabilizing? No more Divine Right of Kings, Church/State rule, European empires (colonies lost), more governments and more unstable. Also, “the works therein, will be discovered” – Internet, Wiki-leaks, 24 hours news cycle, etc.

                What is causing all these changes about us, which are destabilizing Satan’s kingdom of ignorance and darkness and shedding light on every topic? If this is not being caused by the returned Jesus, then what is causing it?

                Let’s look at your verses.

                Matthew 17:2 says “And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light.” Yes, this vision (Matt 17:9) is an example of how Jesus could choose to manifest himself in glory.

                You said, “2 Thessalonians 2:8 it states the manifestation of his presence, another translation is “the brightness of his coming”?

                Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed <601> (5701); and hid, that shall not be known.
                Lu 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed <601> (5701); neither hid, that shall not be known.
                2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed <601> (5701), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia/presence)

                I think we see this revealing since the late 1800s. The “man of sin” or False Christian denominations (particularly the Papacy) destabilizing with loss of Divine right of kings and empty churches in Europe, etc. The “brightness” or sunrise at dawn (Matt 24:27) gradually increases and Satan’s empire (this world) continues toward destabilization and anarchy.

                1 Pet 1:7 “at the appearing <602> of Jesus Christ” 602 ἀποκάλυψις apokalupsis ap-ok-al’-oop-sis

                The apocalypse is the revelation of Christ’s presence the mankind when the present governments are finally and completely brought down and natural Israel rescued from the enemies from the north (Ezek 38 & 39 and Zech 12:10)

                2 Timothy 4:1 says, “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom”. The first dead judged are the “sleeping saints” at Jesus return followed by the living Saints during the Harvest (1 Thess 4:16-17), then the word of mankind yet to come.

                Colossians 3:3-4 is interesting as this says, “For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God. When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.” Yes, I think that his been going on since the Lord returned and will continue till the bride is complete. This verse makes sense in the context I am stating only when you view the topic as a whole.

                Thanks for some great thoughts. You may not agree with me, but I am glad we had the opportunity to share thoughts.

  • Daz

    Hi everyone,
    How is that the Watchtower is adamant that Jesus returned in 1914 yet it also instructs us to stay alert/be on the watch for you don’t know on what day or hour your master will return (Matthew 24:42)indicating that they DON’T actually know, isn’t this a bit of a double sided sword?

    Warm & loving regards,
    Daz

    • Hello Daz,

      I found your comment on Matthew 24:42 interesting. It reads, “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

      I wanted to say that I find it interesting that the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim 1914 for Jesus’ coming when Charles Taze Russell had never associated Jesus coming with 1914. CTR of course believed this event was 1874, but his main prediction about the Gentile Times was that the end of the Gentile Times would see the end of the Gentile rule over the nation of Israel and its return.

      “We need not here repeat the evidences that the “seventh trump” began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of “The times of the Gentiles,” A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this “Great day,” which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” `Dan. 12:1`.”

      Although this passage you quoted in verse 42 states only that we should be watching for Jesus’ return, it says nothing about whether anyone would know about his return. I find many confuse the coming of Jesus with what is said in verses 32-36.

      “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:32-36)[NASB95]

      These verses refer to the blossoming of the Fig tree, which Pastor Russell interpreted as the return of the literal nation of Israel. No man would know the day or hour in which the nation of Israel would return as a nation.

      Interestingly enough Dr. Henry Grattan Guinness in his books, “Approaching End of the Age”, and “Light for the Last Days” (both written in the 19th century about the same time as CTR) had used the same chronology that Barbour found in Elliott’s Horae Apocalypticae from the 1840s, but dated the 2520 years slightly differently.

      “It was in 1917, of course, that British general Sir Edmund Allenby captured Jerusalem after four hundred years of Ottoman rule. Just months before this historic accomplishment, in June, Allenby was at the Grosvenor Hotel in London when he received a phone call from Sir Henry de beauvoir de Lisle, a major-general in the British army, to congratulate him on his pomootion to commander in chief. Durin gthe conversation, de Lisle made the point of saying, ‘nothing can prevent you being in Jerusalem by 31 December.’ Allenby, surprised by the statement, asked, ‘How do you make that out?’ It was then that de Lisle told the new commander of Dr. Henry Grattan Guinness’s predictions in Light for the Last days. Jerusalem fell on December 9 of that year. Two days later, General Allenby entered Jerusalem, the first Christian commander to control the city in centuries. Though he was an excellent horseman, Allenby chose to dismount as he passed through the ancient city gates, in honor of Jesus Christ, whom Allenby believed was the only rule with the right to ride into the city. Chearly, he had the predictions of Reverand Henry Guinness in mind…. Henry Grattean Guiness, writing nearly sixty years before the event, predicted the miraculous event of 1948 when Israel again became a nation. This remains one of the most prescient works of an author in history.” (Mansfield, Stephen, The Search for God and Guinness, pg 195-196, [2009, 2014].

      Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses have dropped all of the prophetic interperation about Israel and reinterpreted them all to identify as themselves, the very literal fulfilment that CTR also predicted was dropped.

      • Daz

        Hi Jeff, thankyou very much for your reply it was much appreciated & very interesting indeed. I didn’t know of the accounts regarding General Allenby so that is something new that I have learned so thanks for that also. Good use of the scriptures too.

        Warm & loving regards,
        Daz

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Daz,

      I do not agree with 1914 as the date of Jesus’ return. However I do think He has returned and I do not see “a double sided sword” here. Here’s why.

      Matt 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”

      Many Christians insist that Jesus cannot possibly have returned yet since the verse says no one knows the day or the hour.

      Notice the Mark account:
      Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

      So Jesus did not know the day and hour of His return. Does mean that when Jesus returns, He will not be aware that He has returned? Of course not. Neither should we think that the watchers would not know that He is present.

      Matt 24:42 (NJKV), “42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.”

      We suggest that what this verse is really saying is that we do not know what hour your Lord will have arrived. Therefore, we should watch so that we can see the signs indicating Jesus is PRESENT.

      This word “COMING” (Strong’s 2064. ercomai) is the same used in verse 30 where Jesus is “coming in the clouds.”

      However, the difference is that in verse 42, has a Strong’s 5736 “Indicative Mood” word meaning is attached. It has the meaning that the action described has occurred or will occur. It can go either way.

      Let’s look at a couple of examples where this word in the “Indicative Mood” does have the thought of having already arrived.

      Mt 3:14 “But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You COME <2064> (5736) to me?”

      Here John is speaking to Jesus who has already arrived, as described by John’s words, “do You come <2064> (5736) to me?”

      Matt 26:36 (NKJV) “Then Jesus CAME <2064> (5736) with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”

      In this example, Jesus had arrived as Gethsemane.

      Consequently, we think that in Matt 24:42, Jesus is telling us to watch so that we can see the signs indicating that Jesus has arrived; that He is PRESENT.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, thankyou so much for your reply, I do understand your reasoning regarding the scriptures pointed out. Is there not still signs yet to occur with regards to the lead up to Christ’s return such as the fall of false religion & the judgement of Jehovah’s house, the recieving of the mark of the beast etc?
        When do you believe that Christ returned?

        Warm & loving regards,
        Daz

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Before I respond, did you have any specific scripture citations to support the view that before Christ returns, we will see the fall of false religion & the judgement of Jehovah’s house, the recieving of the mark of the beast etc? It would help me to know if there are specific verses you have in mind.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, with regards to the scriptures:

            1 Peter 4:17
            For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

            Revelation 11:18
            Revelation 13:16
            Revelation 14:9
            Revelation 16:19
            Revelation 17 & 18
            Revelation 19:20
            Matthew 24:11

            Warm & loving regards,
            Daz

      • Victor Field

        Peter k

        The day or the hour, nobody knows.

        What about the season?

        Do you think the Gentile Times (7 Times, 2520 yrs ) are important, in guiding us to this season?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Victor, the day and the hour nobody knows, means that no one will know before he returns. However after he returns, the watchers should be aware that he is president.

          The Gentle Times covers the time of Gentile domination over the nation of Israel, not the time of Jesus return.

          • Victor Field

            Peter k

            I read in one of your comments, you believe Jesus return to have already taken place, how and when did you become aware to this?

            Are you referring to literal/spiritual Israel in Gentile domination?

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Victor,

              You asked how and when did I become aware of the Lord’s Return. As a child, I was aware that the Bible Students I met with believed this. By age 12, I was beginning to study and learn how this was proved by scriptures.

              Victor – Jesus Second Presence is a big topic. However, let me attempt to make this simple. I believe that as a result of Jesus Second Presence we have seen the following gigantic changes on earth:

              1) End of the reign of European Kings and Queens / end of Church State rule (Divine Right of Kings) / Demolishing of European Empires (having lost all their colonies)
              2) Increase in knowledge (radio, television, electronic appliances, air conditioning, microwave ovens, computers, Internet, smart phones, etc)
              3) Increase in travel (trains, automobiles, plains, mass transit, etc.)
              4) Great Trouble on a worldwide scale never before seen (i.e. world wars, worldwide terrorism, mass murders by Stalin, Hitler, etc., etc.)
              5) Jewish people restored to the land of Israel
              6) Book of Daniel unsealed and explained by Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures.

              So Victor, I believe that all of these events are a result of our invisible returned Lord Jesus. To what do you attribute these changes on planet earth? Have these changes been caused by
              a) God?
              b) God & Jesus?
              c) Satan?
              d) A natural evolution of society?
              e) Other: Fill in the blank: _________________________ ?

              So Victor, if all these changes are not being caused as a result of Jesus at his second presence, then to what do you attribute these events?

              TIMES OF THE GENTILES

              Luke 21: (NKJV) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near… 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

              The Times of the Gentiles is (I believe) a period of time starting with the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and ending in 1914. During this period the Gentile powers would dominate and rule natural Israel. This domination began to end in 1914 when the Gentile governments (Church/State rule with Kings and colonies) were demolished. World War I led to the 1917 Balfour Declaration by Great Britain which set aside Palestine (actually Israel) as a homeland for the Jews.

              You can find more on the Gentile Times by CLICKING HERE.

              • Victor Field

                Peter k

                Thankyou for replying to my questions.

                To answer the multiple choice question
                I would attribute the events to C)Satan,+ his Angel followers, Rev 12 being thrown out of heaven (1914) everything we have been taught from this date, to be the disgorged water vrs 15, in setting confusion, especially for the latter day chosen.

                The times of the Gentiles ( I believe) would be taken from a date after the fall of Babylon, and the start of the 2nd build of the Temple being 520 BCE,
                showing…2001… to be the ending of the Gentile period

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Victor – I have never heard of the Gentile Times ending in 2001. Did you come up with this yourself or from others? Are there events that occurred around the time of 2001 that you feel were a direct result of the Gentile Times ending?

                  • Victor Field

                    Peter k

                    Jesus came alongside me,
                    He gave me this date, along with other information.

                    Beginning from May last year, it is all new to me also, previous to the month of May, my understanding of things was very different to what it is now.

                    • Daz

                      Hi Victor, hope you are well.
                      May I ask, do you mean or are you literally that Jesus spoke to you in person? If so how can this be? (I mean no offence by my response just very interested by what you have said)

                      Warm & loving regards,
                      Daz

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Victor – Thanks, if Jesus spoke directly to you then no doubt, whatever he said must be true. Now are you certain it was Jesus speaking to you and not a demon impersonating Jesus?

                      A struggle I have here Victor is that I have communicated with others who have told me they received direct revelation from Jesus. Yet if we could bring you all together in one room to discuss it, the revelations would all contradict each other. So if Jesus truly did reveal this to you, then these other people must have all been deceived by demons. So do you think perhaps they were decieved?

                    • Victor Field

                      Daz
                      In fulfilment with Luke 12:37 not literally (voice)

                      Peter k

                      It sounds like you have had some experience with other peoples claims,I cannot comment on what others have said,previously to you, only on that of my own revelation, therefore
                      You have my email, please feel free to ask me questions and test me out, I would welcome this, as I have observed your thoroughness, in relation to testing out the scriptures

  • thomas

    very well put Jerome, spot on!! brief and to the point,

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Thomas – At the time of Jesus return, do you believe that His followers on earth will be aware that He is present? What scriptural evidence can you present to support your answer?

      • thomas

        a most excellent question Peter K. if you don’t mind I will make this a matter of prayer and thought before replying.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, could these signs not be the lead up to Christ’s return?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Personally, I think these are signs of Jesus Presence. However, for the sake of arguement, let’s say that I am NOT correct and that it is as you say, these events are all the lead up to Jesus return. Okay. However, we might still want to answer the question first, WHAT IS CAUSING THESE EVENTS TO OCCUR? After we can answer this question, then we can try to establish what the signs indicate – whether He is coming soon or now Present.

  • Any serious student (disciple) of Christ would know the answer to this question without even flinching.

    True disciples of Christ would know what he said at Matthew 24:36, Matthew 24:42 and Acts 1:7 (just to name a few places) concerning such things.

    True disciples of Christ would be obedient to The Most High’s command at Luke 9:35 to “Listen to His Son.”

    Are persons listening to what Christ said in the Scriptures mentioned above or are they listening to religious organizations and their leadership at the top?

    I think it is an insult to The Most High God and His Son when the persons proclaiming to have received prophetic utterances(past and present) from God and Christ are ALL White persons. I know that God does not show favoritism. Doesn’t anyone see anything wrong with any of this?

    First, we have these persons and the religious organizations they found establishing dates that Jesus said was out of their jurisdiction and not knowable by any human, angel or himself. Yet, these religious organizations ignore what Jesus said and press ever forward teaching and building a foundation of false teachings based on such dates.

    Second, to ignore what Jesus says is an actual “opposing” what he said. It is taking an “anti” posture with what Jesus said. This is the “spirit” of opposition to Christs teachings or “spirit of antichrist.”

    The most interesting and curious thing I have observed is that the masses who cling to these false utterances act as if Jesus never said anything about such things. Instead, they are blindly loyal the teachings of the religious organizations they have invested themselves in and made themselves members. They will even defend the teachings of the organization rather than what Christ said concerning dates and times. What power could cast such a shadow over persons?

    Bottom line: It should be a no-brainer. Either one listens to what Christ says or they don’t.

    Jesus said at Matthew 24:42: “… YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.”

    So why are religious organizations teaching THEY KNOW?

    This should not even be a discussion. There are no words or reasoning about the establishment of dates to justify NOT listening to what Christ said.

    Listen to Christ and not to religious organizations who desire persons to listen to them … or else.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Jerome – Before I respond to you, can you verify that you see my comment here and will be looking for my response. Can we have a back and forth discussion on this topic? Hearing from you will let me know if you are really looking to see what others have to say about your comments. Thanks.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, hope you are well & enjoyed the convention.
        I would be very interested to read your reply to jerome’s points as I feel he has made some very valid ones BUT I am sure that you also will have some valid view points too. After spending alot of time within the Jw organization myself I totally see where Jerome is coming from. Many of it’s members do just follow suit & just automatically trust what they are being told or taught. I guess I was a victim of this at some point too BUT I always asked questions, some that were never really answered to my satisfaction. I always had these little niggling doubts at the back of my mind, it was like I knew something wasn’t quite right with the teachings but just wasn’t quite sure what at that time. I am thankful & I appreciate that the basics were taught to me in a pretty truthful way though.

        Warm & loving regards,
        Daz

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Thanks. No body should “just sit and follow suit & just automatically trust what they are being told or taught.” We should find our answers in the Bible. We should allow liberty for people to have differences of opinion. Regarding Jerome’s comments, if you have something specific you want me to reply to, let me know. In general, I would say that I believe we can make the case from scriptures that Jesus invisibly returns with the world not aware of this during a period called the “Harvest” where the anointed see that he has returned. I believe that the signs of Christ’s PRESENCE are the signs and evidence that indicate he is here. I understand that on the surface, this seems like a ridiculous proposition to the natural mind. So we can either agree to disagree and love each other in spite of this or if you would like, we can start pursuing this topic in more detail. The problem with many questions on this website is that people have not read the Studies in the Scriptures to understand the scriptural reasons why Bible Students believe Jesus has been present for so long. This is sort of like someone mastering basic math, then without taking Beginning Algebra, Basic Algebra and Advanced Algebra arguing that a chapter in the Advances Algebra book is clearing wrong. To really understand it a lot of study and dedication to God’s word is needed. This takes time and patience.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, thanks for your reply, I would very much like to read the study you refer to & meditate on it with use of the scriptures, please would you mind post a link so I can read it.
            Many thanks,

            Warm & loving regards,
            Daz

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Daz – About Jesus second presence, to get started, check out this video:
              http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/05/22/is-jesus-coming-or-has-he-returned-watch-this-video/

              As background material, CLICK HERE to consider that Jesus now has an invisible Heavenly Spirit Divine Body.

              For information about How Jesus second presence is invisible and unseen by the world CLICK HERE.

              Daz – This is sort of the Beginning Algebra Course, so to speak. If you finish this and want more, we can complete the Beginning Algebra Course with more.

              • Daz

                Hi Peter, sorry I have only just noticed your reply to me with the links, thankyou so much, I will definately check them out!

                Warm & loving regards,
                Daz

              • Daz

                Hi Peter. I watched & listened to the video which you kindly posted the link for. I can see your understanding & reasoning for believing that Jesus returned in 1874 especially regarding the massive growth in technology & knowledge. It was very strange watching & listening to this on the video because I had a discussion with a very close friend who at the time didn’t really believe in God, well I brought up in one of our conversations about the incredable rate in which technology & knowledge has surpassed everyone’s expectations within the last 100 years or so. I mentioned most of what the video said. The conversation was basically about being in the last days & how the signs of the times prove this, I still have indepth conversations with him. Only last week I was explaining the best I could the return of Christ Jesus & what it means for us, I always try & keep it as simple as I can as I don’t want to overload him with too much at once. I am happy to say that he now has a real belief in God, which has brought my much joy, he is such a good hearted guy & a very loyal friend.

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