Everything about Prayer

 Click here to read the Herald Magazine issue, dedicated to the topic, PRAYER.  

Prayer has been defined as the soul’s sincerest desire, either uttered or unexpressed. It is one of the most important blessings and privileges enjoyed by the Christian. It is one of the most powerful tools available to the follower of Jesus. By it we gain direct and immediate access, day or night, to the creator of the universe, our Heavenly Father.

Through prayer, we have the opportunity of presenting to the Lord of Hosts, one-on-one, our praise and thanksgiving, our appreciation and gratitude, our reverence and awe, our hopes and our fears and our needs and requests. He is never too busy to listen to our sincere petitions and praise. Our prayers, if proper, arise to Him as sweet incense (Psalm 141:2).

Prayer is the basis of a two-way conversation with God. Through prayer, we can express our deepest desires and concerns; and through prayer, we can be strengthened and comforted far beyond all human understanding. Prayer is the new creature’s lifeline to spiritual guidance, help and God’s providences, all of which are needed to win the crown of life. Prayer provides access into the courts of heaven.

This issue of the Herald focuses on the blessings and responsibilities associated with prayer. It considers what prayer is and how it should be used. It reviews how it was used by some, such our Lord Jesus, David and Hezekiah, and how it was ignored by others such as Judas. It suggests how we can strengthen our life of prayer and thus, build a stronger, closer, more successful relationship with our Heavenly Father.

We open with “Watch and Pray” which considers how both prayer and watching are vital for a successful Christian walk. “The Power of Prayer” looks at prayers by both Hezekiah and David and what those prayers accomplished in their lives.

“Teach Us to Pray” reviews the model prayer given by Jesus when the disciples asked, “Lord, teach us to pray” (Luke 11:1). “The Master’s Life of Prayer” analyzes Jesus’ life of prayer and what elements we should emulate in our Christian lives. “The Difference was Prayer” contrasts how Jesus, Peter, and Judas either used or ignored the privilege of prayer as they faced difficult tests during the last week of Jesus’ earthly ministry.

“What Should We Pray For” reviews, in practical terms, the many Scriptures that tell us what we should pray for and what we should not pray for. Finally, “A Selfless Prayer” considers Jesus’ beautiful prayer in John 17 and some of the spiritual lessons it holds for us.

It is our hope that this issue will both encourage and strengthen each of our lives of prayer.

Read more about prayer by clicking here:

109 comments to Everything about Prayer

  • Richard.Tazzyman

    Marc,Please read your Bible,John20:17.It states it quite clearly:quote from Diaglot:”Jesus said to her,”Touch me not;for I have not yet ascended to My FATHER;but go to my Bretheren and tell them,I ascend to my Father,and your father;even my God,and your God.
    ASV(1901),quote:Jesus said to her,Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended unto the Father,but go unto my bretheren,and say to them,I ascend unto my Father and your father,and my God and your God.
    The Interlinear Bible,Hebrew,Greek English,quote:”Jesus said to her,do not touch me,for I have not yet ascended to My Father,but go to my brothers and say to them,I am ascending to my Father & your Father,and My God & your God”. This is Gods Word-The holy Spirit speaking-What could be more straight Forward!!Bro Richard,Bible Student Australia.

    • Marc Taylor

      The Lord Jesus calls the Father “God” in John 20:17.
      Thomas calls the Lord Jesus “God” in John 20:28.
      The Father calls the Lord Jesus “God” in Hebrews 1:8.

      This accords with Trinitarianism.

  • Richard.Tazzyman

    Hello Again Marc.Your reply to Brother Peter was not correct,Refer again to John20:17.Jesus Said ,”I am acsending to my Father (JEHOVAH)& your Father(Jehovah)AND TO MY GOD(JEHOVAH) & to your GOD(Jehovah)Again Mark this scripture tells us that Jesus had a heavenly Father & that Father(Jehovah)was his GOD.This is what the scriptures say,You cannot change them,or add your own thoughts to try & prove a tri-une God who is not mentioned in the Bible.Only be twisting what Jesus Said could anyone arrive at the conclusion that he Was GOD.Bro Richard,Bible Student Australia.

    • Marc Taylor

      The Lord Jesus calls the Father “God” in John 20:17.
      Thomas calls the Lord Jesus “God” in John 20:28.
      The Father calls the Lord Jesus “God” in Hebrews 1:8.

      This accords with Trinitarianism.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Yes Marc, they are both “theos”, but so is the bride of Christ where in John 10:34, Jesus quoting from Psa 82:6

        How do you explain that “theos” was begotten, had a beginning: John 1:18 (NASV) “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

      • Marc Taylor

        The bride is never referred to as “my God” – but the Lord Jesus is properly referred to as such because He is the true God (John 20:28).
        The Lord Jesus never had a beginning. He did in terms of His earthly life, but He always existed as God prior to that. No passage teaches otherwise.

        • Peter K. (admin)

          In John 1:18 Jesus is called the “only begotten God.” Can you name any living being where begotten does not indicate a beginning? All animals and people have their beginning when begotten. You have to change the meaning of the word begotten to make it fit your Trinity theory.

          • Marc Taylor

            1. BDAG (3rd Edition): pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind) (monogenēs, page 658).
            2. NIDNTT: While genos is distantly related to gennan, beget, there is little linguistic justification for translating monogenēs as “only begotten.” The latter practice originated with Jerome who translated it by the Lat. unigenitus to emphasize Jesus’ divine origin in answer to Arianism. The word monogenēs reflects the Heb. yahid, only, precious [Gen. 22:2, 12, 16, of Isaac], and is used in Heb. 11:17 of Isaac who was unique in the sense of being the sole son of promise, but who was not the only son whom Abraham begat. Perhaps the word may best be translated as “unique” (2:75-76, God, J. Schneider).
            3. J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class – ‘unique, only’ (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 58.52, monogenēs, page 591).

            The above is how the word is properly defined so it is you who is attempting to change the meaning of the word. There is no passage i the Bible that denies the Lord Jesus is God. Not one.

      • Richard.Tazzyman

        That is not correct Mark,Again you are trying to change what the Scripture says,Read Hebrews 1 :8-9 :But about the Son,he says:God is your throne(not that he is God)….”That is why God,YOUR GOD,ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL”…So you are trying to tell us different..God did not anoint himself!Again Mark-Triitarians try to twist what the scriptures say,We can not have an honest discussions if you try to change what is said” Why God-Your God”(Jesus God)anointed him.Richard.Tazzyman

        • Marc Taylor

          You are trying to change what the word monogenēs means. I cited from at least 3 good lexicons that do not at all agree with your position.
          Your rendering on Hebrews 1:8 is supported by only a minority of English translations. Furthermore, Hebrews 1:10 is still another example where YHWH from the Old Testament (Psalm 102:25) is properly applied unto the Lord Jesus. This demonstrates that He is YHWH.

          • Richard.Tazzyman

            Mark,that statement about Hebrews 1:8-9 that you said was not correct,& that only a few translations use it ,again is not true.One of the best INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION (The Interliear Bible,2nd Edition 1985/1986)Literal word for word translation in Hebrew,Greek & English(With Strongs concordance Numbers)agrees with this Rendering,speaking of YOUR GOD(Jesus God.
            As well as the most respected Diaglott(Wilsons)Also agrees,Saying Thy(your) God(Jehovah)anointed thee(Jesus).
            ASV(1901)agrees word for word,as above>Certainly these are very reliable.Again you are evasive & do not mention these reliable translations.I can go on & also quote from the NIV,Which also agrees with the above translations.This is my last post on this subject as you have never been able to explain that The Father is greater than I,or My God & Your God.All you can quote is what you belive the scriptures say,Not What Jesus actually Said.Never-Never did he say he was God,but even on the Cross he cried out MY FArTHER,WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!?Richard Tazzyman.Australia

            • Marc Taylor

              Concerning your citation of Hebrews 1:8 I wrote, “Your rendering on Hebrews 1:8 is supported by only a minority of English translations.”

              See below and notice how many don’t agree with you:
              https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%201:8

              So I am not evasive. You (and others) have been evasive with the fact that YHWH from the Old Testament has been applied unto the Lord Jesus in the NT. Just once would demonstrate He is YHWH, but because this does not want to be believed it is rejected even though it takes place SEVERAL times. To deny such a truth is really absurd.

  • It’s interesting to note what Pastor Russell said on page 540 and 541 of the Question Book on this subject.

    QUESTION (1912)–1–Are there special instances in which we should appeal to the Lord Jesus?
    Answer.–I cannot think of any circumstance in which the Lord Jesus could do more than the Father. But in my own mind and prayer I think of the two being one because their wills are one, and therefore I never make any mistake. I find myself thinking sometimes of one and sometimes of the other, but it is Thy will and not My will, and so I try to blot out any distinction.

    QUESTION (1912)–3–Are you addressing your prayers only to the Father in the name of the Son?
    ANSWER–Usually I follow that form of addressing the heavenly Father–only in the name of the Lord Jesus; but I have found myself in prayer addressing the Lord Jesus himself, for I find nothing in the Scriptures to contradict that, for they say to honor the Son even as we honor the Father. Nearly all the Scriptures follow that course of addressing the Father and I think of only one that is different “Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”

    • Marc Taylor

      Hello Rolando,

      I also found this concerning John 5:23 in which Charles Taze Russell cited in reference to praying to/worshiping the Lord Jesus. Prayers of the mature Christians “are usually thank offerings and communion seasons — telling the Lord (the Father or the Son, either or both, for the Father, as well as the Son, loves us; — John 16:27 — and we have promise of communion with both; — John 14:23 — both are to be worshiped and loved equally, for ‘all men should honor the son even as they honor the Father;’ John 5:23….” (“Our Chicago Convention,” Watch Tower Reprints, 1 and 15 September 1893, 1580–81).

  • Marc Taylor

    Hello Peter,

    You wrote, “We should not pray directly to Jesus.”

    1. Jesus said we can pray directly to Him (John 14:14).
    2. Others prayed directly to Him by calling on His name (Acts 9:14, 21; 22:16; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:22).
    3. Stephen prayed directly to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59-60), as did Paul (2 Corinthians 12:8).
    4. All Christians are to sing unto the Lord Jesus (Ephesians 5:19).
    5. Paul thanked the Lord Jesus (1 Timothy 1:12).

    There are many other examples, but the ones above should suffice.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Marc – Thanks for engaging in conversation with us.

      None of the scriptures you referenced used the word “prayer.” You take expressions like “calling on the name of the Lord” to equal prayer. However, I will not be dogmatic. I can see how one might read into these praying to Jesus. I prefer to pray to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. However, praying to Jesus would not prove he is God, if we accept that God allows this since Jesus’ is his representative (Logos / Word).

      Let me ask you some questions Marc.

      Why do you believe the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible if it is supposedly at least one of the most important Bible teachings?

      What is your COMPLETE definition of the Trinity and where is this COMPLETE definition found in the Bible?

      We appreciate when you respond to us as this venue is for two way conversations. Thanks.

      • Marc Taylor

        To call upon the name of the Lord means the same thing as praying to the Lord.
        Psalm 116:4
        Then I called upon the name of the LORD: “O LORD, I beseech You, save my life!” (NASB)
        Jeremiah 29:12
        Lamentations 3:55-57
        I called on Your name, O LORD, Out of the lowest pit. You have heard my voice, “Do not hide Your ear from my prayer for relief, From my cry for help.” You drew near when I called on You; You said, “Do not fear!” (NASB)

        In answer to your questions:
        1. The precise word “Trinity” does not have to appear in the Bible. Other words like “monotheism” and “omniscience” do not appear in the Bible, but I believe they accurately describe who God is.
        2. I don’t think the Trinity can ever be completely defined, just like I can’t fully explain that God has always existed. I can cite Scriptural proof for it, but I could never say I am “complete” in my understanding of it.

        • Peter K (Admin)

          Thanks Marc. I appreciate you because you are are making an honest effort to attempt to answer questions. Many Christians through the centuries have had varying definitions of the Trinity. However, without defining the Trinity, we stand on quicksand with nothing specific to test against scripture. Am I safe in concluding the following about your Trinity belief?

          1) Jesus is from Everlasting and did not have a beginning.

          2) The Holy Spirit is a person, the third person of the Trinity.

          3) The ONE Triune God is composed of three separate persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Huh?)

          • Marc Taylor

            Hello Peter,
            Yes, I would agree with the above.

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Marc,

              Would you be willing to discuss another topic? What are your thoughts on Salvation? Who will be saved and who are lost? For example, what will happen to all the people who never heard of Jesus, but were good people? Before the modern age, few in India or China would have known anything about Jesus or the Bible. Are they saved or lost? What scriptural evidence would you present to support your view?

              • Marc Taylor

                Hello Peter,

                Another huge topic. I am not sure how much detail you want in what I believe, but I will start with a few things.

                No one can come unto the Lord Jesus unless the Father draws this person (John 6:44). The Lord opened the heart of Lydia in order for her to believe (Acts 16:14). Those whom God chooses will express their faith by repentance (Acts 20:21) and the confession that Jesus is Lord (YHWH; cf. Romans 10:13). When this occurs the person receives and is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47; Ephesians 1:13). This is being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16). The NT Church began when the Holy Spirit was poured out (Acts 2:4), and anyone who does not believe in Christ is “dead in their trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). If they die in this state they will be eternally and consciously separated from God in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15; cf. Revelation 14:10-11).

                • Hey Marc, So if a person has NEVER heard of Jesus or been witness to about Jesus, are they “eternally and consciously separated from God in the lake of fire”?

                  • Marc Taylor

                    If this person dies they are still in their sins. A person “in their sins” is not forgiven. So the answer to your question is “yes”.

                    • It’s pretty much Black and White for you Marc? You either know Jesus NOW or perish forever?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Acts 4:12…no other name.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Thanks Marc. The link I provided answers your point — Acts 4:12…no other name. The world of mankind will have the opportunity to call on Jesus name after they are awakened from the dead and brought back to like on earth during the reign of the Christ – Jesus and his body members – during the 1,000 years.

                      The link demonstrates from scripture only – without explanation – just by the words of the Bible – that there are TWO groups of people saved at two different times.
                      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/

                      1) The followers of Jesus since Pentecost are being developed in character with the fruits of the spirit to be like Jesus and thereby prepared to (under Jesus’ authority) assist him as earths future judges, priests and kings in the effort to teach mankind righteousness.

                      2) The world of mankind awakened from the dead with be taught the “knowledge of the Lord” while at the same time Satan is bound and unable to interfere. The large majority of mankind, having experienced the terrible results of evil, with their eyes no longer “blinded by the god of this world” will as the scripture says “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.” Those that chose to worship and obey God will be able to live forever on planet earth where there will be “no my crying, pain, or death for the former things are passed away.”

                    • Chris Johns

                      Amen Peter,
                      The world is not aware of Gods plan. That’s why we are a little flock. Narrow is the way and FEW are the ones finding it. God is only calling a class of 144,000 to reign with him.

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Marc,

                  What I like about you is you unapologetically come out and say exactly what you believe and you are even providing sculptures which you feel support your view. In the past, we have had visitors copying and pasting arguments from their authorities on this site and then not really honestly attempting to answer our questions. So, even if we disagree, it is refreshing to have a visitor like you who seems actually willing to engage in a civil two way conversation.

                  Where we agree is that no one can be eternally saved without accepting Jesus as their Savior. However, if our lifetime is the only opportunity for salvation, this create the dilemma that the vast majority of mankind are lost forever. I hope you would agree that at least on the surface that appears to contradict the concept that “God is love” (1 John 4:8) and Jesus statement to “love your enemies” (Luke 6:27), as it appears God and Jesus are not practicing what they preach.

                  What I think you are missing is that the Bible clearly teaches two stages to salvation:
                  1) Jesus followers in this present evil world/age (Gal 1:4) being prepared to be earth future judges, priests and kings, under their head, Jesus
                  2) The general world of mankind raised from the dead on earth during the 1,000 year reign (Rev 20:4-6) and having the opportunity for salvation then.

                  You can find the powerful scripture case for this view at this link: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/

                  • Marc Taylor

                    Hello Peter,

                    Thanks for your kind words.

                    I think God does love everyone in that He demonstrates His goodness on both the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). Thanks for the link. I do admit that I am not very knowledgable when it comes to eschatology.

                    Marc

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Marc – Are you aware of the history of how the idea of the Trinity became a Christian doctrine, even though not found in any writings of first and second centuries?

              Professor Sayce (Gifford Lectures and Hibbert Lectures) as follows: “‘The indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very same terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt.’”

              John Newton (Origin of Triads and Trinities) writes: “And now we see some meaning in the strange phrases that have puzzled so many generations in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, such as ‘Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten not Made, Being of one Substance with the Father.’ These are all understandable enough if translated into the language of the Solar Trinity [worshipped in ancient Egypt], but without this clue to their meaning, they become sheer nonsense or contradictions. . . . The simplicity and symmetry of the old sun Trinities were utterly lost in forming these new Christian Creeds on the old Pagan models. . . . The [pagan] trinities had all the prestige of a vast antiquity and universal adoption, and could not be ignored. The Gentile converts therefore eagerly accepted the Trinity compromise, and the Church baptized it. Now at length we know its origin.”

              The Nicene, or Semi-trinitarian Creed:
              Principally drawn up by the Council of Nice in A.D. 325, the clause concerning the Holy Ghost in brackets [ ] having been affixed to it by the Council of Constantinople, in A.D. 381, except the words [and the son], which were afterwards introduced into it.

              “I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and of all things visible and invisible. “And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God; begotten of his Father before all worlds; God of (or from) God; Light of (or from) Light; Very God of (or from) Very God; begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven; and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the virgin Mary; and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father: and he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. “And I believe in the Holy Ghost, [the Lord and Giver of life; who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the prophets]. “And I believe one catholic and apostolic church: I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins: and I look for the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

              • Marc Taylor

                The “trinities” of pagans is not really that comparable to the Christian Trinity in that in Christianity the belief in only 1 God is affirmed. He is a tri-unity. Pagan gods were not the same. Citing Bible critics are those who do not believe in the Trinity doesn’t really help.
                Jesus is the “true light” (John 1:9), as is the Father (1 John 1:5). The NT continued what the OT claimed that there is only 1 God. But there are passages found that teach both the Son and the Holy Spirit are also God. Since the Scriptures teach such then the triunity of God is demonstrated.

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Thanks Marc for your reply. The The Nicene Creed principally drawn up by the Council of Nice in A.D. 325, states “…God of (or from) God; Light of (or from) Light; Very God of (or from) Very God; begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father…” Do you disagree that this is the same language found in pagan trinities (i.e. Egypt)? Do you agree with this language in the Nicene Creed? Do you find your view of the Tri-unity spelled out in church history and if so where in history? Do you consider history at all or do your strictly go by the Bible alone? I am trying to find out upon what foundation(s) you base your belief on the Trinity.

                  • Chris Johns

                    Peter,
                    I believe the Bible. “There is One God and One Mediator between God and Man.” Hod is never called three. Jesus said the head of christ is God. If it simply said “the head of christ is the father” then the trinity would make sense. But the father is always much higher than the son. But if the son is God then he can the almighty be in subjection to anything? He wouldn’t be God then.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hello Chris,

                      Ontological subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority. “God” (theos) is primarily (although not exclusively) used of the Father. The same holds true concerning “Lord” (kyios) for the Lord Jesus. The fact that Thomas properlly referred to the Lord Jesus as “my God” demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God.

                      You wrote, “But the father is always much higher than the son. But if the son is God then he can the almighty be in subjection to anything”?

                      If the Father is “always much higher than the Son” then why is it that there is not one place anywhere in the Bible where between the two of them no worship rendered by people to the Father is ever superior to that properly given to the Lord Jesus? This is a convincing proof that the Lord Jesus is God.
                      Yes, God the Son can choose to willingly subject Himself to the Father. Who are we to say that He can not do this?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      I meant to say “functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority.” Look at the attributes both the Father and the Son receive praise for in Revelation 5:12 (cf. 4:11) and Revelation 5:13. If the Son were a created being such praise (worship) should never take place.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Still incorrect. Moses and Abraham and Angels are Called God as well. Jesus said we are gods. Also, the Bible says 1 Cor 8:6 “there is one God the father” 1 Tim 2:5 “There is One God and mediator between God and man” Jesus said “I am ascending to my God”. Jesus said “This is everlasting life their knowing YOU the only true God” “God and father of our lord Jesus Christ”. Not hard to see.

                      These are very clear. Jesus is only refereed to as God after his resurrection because he partook of the divine nature that the church will share in. In order to harmonize the verses you believe make Jesus God you have to have Jesus talking out of two sides on his mouth. You carom he is 100% god and man but when he shows he’s less than God then it’s said “well that’s his human side” as if he is split personality.

                      The scriptures quoted have to be reinterpreted to mean something else. It’s very clear. The trinity just be read into the Bible.

                  • Marc Taylor

                    Hello Peter,

                    As I pointed out above, the foundation for which I believe the Trinity is the Bible. There is one God and yet the Scriptures teach that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. The pagan deities of Egypt (or anywhere else) is not like the Trinity of the Bible. Where does it teach that any of them believe in only one God?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Chris,

                      Moses and Abraham are never properly referred to as “my God” – this only should be applied to the true God (cf. John 20:28). Furthermore, Jesus is referred to as “God” even before His resurrection (Hebrews 1:8).

                      Concerning 1 Corinthians 8:6, the Father is also called “Lord” in Acts 4:29. When Paul refers to Jesus as “Lord” it means He is God (YHWH) – see Romans 10:13. The same with Peter (1 Peter 2:3, 15). In fact, so does the author of Hebrews (1:10). Thus the use of “God” in Hebrews 1:8 is to be understood as YHWH.

                      The same word for “only” in John 17:3 is also used by John in Revelation 15:4. Only God is holy and yet Jesus is “equally” holy. Notice the next phrase concerns itself with worship. Only God is holy so therefore only God is to be worshiped. To ascribe worship to any other but God is to denigrate the holiness of God – and yet Jesus is properly worshiped, thus He is absolutely holy (= God).

                    • Marc Taylor

                      I meant to write 1 Peter 3:15 (not 2:15).
                      These are not the only places YHWH from the OLd Testament is applied unto the Lord Jesus in the New Testament. That it occurs just once would prove that the Lord Jesus is God. The fact that it occurs quite a few times further demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH.

                    • Chris J

                      THey are called God. Elohim. Plain and simple. Yet we don’t called them God do we. I have heard the argument that since Jesus and God can be called Lord then both can be called God as per 1 Cor 8:6. But if that was what it was saying then this whole passage become useless to even state when they don’t believe in God God the father but rather one Hod father son Holy Spirit. Also as per your revelation scripture. Jesus is given worship because he was raised to the divine nature. What your doing is as follows.

                      1. The Bible says God will judge the world. But the Bible says Jesus will judge the world. Thus Jesus is God because they both do the same thing. Then I say “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world” so we must be God as well””. No no no that’s not what it means. But my good sir that what it says.

                      The church will also share in the divine nature with God and Jesus.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Jesus is not the YHWH of the Old Testament.

                      Psalm 110:1 “Jehovah said to my Lord “Sit at my Right hand…” Jesus is said to sit at Gods right hand.

                      Exodus 3:15 compared Acts 3:13

                      “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord (YHWH) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you:.”
                      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                      Acts 3:13
                      “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus.”
                      ‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

                      Analysis YHWH is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is the Son of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

                      Also you can’t ascribe attributes to one and claim that since they are also attributed to another that they make them the same.

                      The Bible says God will judge the earth. It also says the saints will judge the earth. Does that mean the saints are GOD. No,

                    • Marc Taylor

                      But they are never referred to as “my God” for a very good reason.

                      Jesus is given worship in Revelation because of His attributes – the same with the Father.

                      Your example with the judgment doesn’t hold because as with the case of “my” with “my God,” never once does the Bible teach in relation to the final judgment that the saints “will render to every man according to his deeds/ways.” But it does so with the Father (1 Kings 8:39; Proverbs 24:12; Romans 2:6) and the Lord Jesus (Matthew 16:27; Revelation 22:12; cf. 2:23) because they are omniscient.

                      You claim that Jesus is not YHWH of the Old Testament but failed to address Romans 10:13; Hebrews 1:10; 1 Peter 2:3, 3:15 which are all based on Old Testament texts in reference to YHWH.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      To know the only true God (John 17:3) = To know the Lord (Hebrews 8:11)
                      Hebrews 8:11 is from Jeremiah 31:34 and this “knowing” the Lord refers to “worshiping” Him (Jeremiah 24:7; cf. 4:1-4). The fact that God alone is to be worshiped because He alone is holy (Revelation 15:4) shows that the “aloneness” of God (John 17:3) encompasses the Lord Jesus.
                      Notice also that a true worshiper of the true God worships in spirit and truth (John 4:24). Worshiping God “in truth” encompasses calling on the Lord (YHWH) (Psalm 145:18). That true worshipers call on the Lord Jesus demonstrates that He is YHWH – the true God (Acts 2:21; 7:59-60; 9:14, 21; 22:16; Romans 10:12-14; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:22).

                    • Chris Johns

                      None of that you said shows Jesus to be jehovah.

                      “There is one God and One mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim 2:5
                      This scripture makes no sense in light of the trinity. Jesus mediatsles between God and Man. Super simple and way more direct than calling on names.

                      The early church understood this and didnt have to parallel minor details to figure such an essential doctrine.

                      Jesus even said after his ressurection that “I am ascending to my God and your God.” Wait a minute God has a God? If jesus the Jehovah of the Old Testament then Jehivah has a God? This scripture completely refutes the trinity bwcasue if there is ok not one God then Jesus is making it clear that there are two Gods.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Pretty interesting here.

                      Jesus and Jehovah (Yahweh)

                      This site’s purpose is to respond to claims that Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh by pointing out what the scriptures do say versus what people often imagine and assume.

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                      Tuesday, September 5, 2017

                      Romans 10:13 – Whoever Will Call On The Name Of Jehovah

                      “For, `Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah will be saved [Joel 2:32].’” — Romans 10:13

                      Some try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) by pointing to Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32. The argument is made that Paul is here calling Jesus “Lord”. Since this is a reference to Joel 2:32, where it tells us that whoever calls on the name of Jehovah will be delivered, trinitarians as well as oneness believers claim that this means that Jesus is the same (sentient?) being (or person, in the case of our “oneness” neighbors) as Jehovah. Some translations render Romans 10:13 as calling upon Jehovah or Yahweh.

                      Certainly, Jesus is the means that Jehovah has provided for salvation (John 3:16,17), no one can come to Jehovah but through Jesus (John 14:6), and no other means has been given by Jehovah for salvation than the name of Jesus. (Acts 4:12) Jesus’ name means: “Jehovah saves” or “Jehovah is savior,” which ascribes the actual source of salvation to Jehovah, as all things are of Jehovah, through Jesus. (John 3:16; Romans 5:8,10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 15:57; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; Titus 3:5,6; Hebrews 13:21; 1 John 4:9,10) Thus to properly call upon the name of Jesus as the spokesperson and one anointed by Jehovah (Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19; Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Matthew 12:18; Luke 4:18,21; Acts 3:13-26), would essentially be the same as calling upon the name of Jehovah. (Matthew 10:14; Mark 9:37; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; Romans 1:8; 7:25; 14:26; Philippians 1:11; 2:11) But to ascertain whether Romans 10:13 is calling Jesus “Jehovah”, let us go through the tenth chapter of Romans briefly, to see exactly who Paul speaks of.

                      Romans 10:1: Brothers, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved.

                      In verse one, Paul says he prays to God for the salvation of Israel. Who is the God of Israel? This, of course, is Jehovah. (Exodus 3:14,15; 16:12; 20:2; 34:32) In the New Testament, we learn that the God of Israel — Jehovah — is the Father of Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19; Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35; John 5:43; 8:54; 10:25; Hebrews 1:1,2) Paul thus recognizes Yahweh, the God of Israel as the source of salvation.

                      Romans 10:2: For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.”
                      Romans 10:3: For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn’t subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”
                      Romans 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                      In these verses, Paul discusses Israel’s relationship with God — Jehovah. He says that they are ignorant of God’s righteousness (Romans 3:22), and sought to make themselves righteous by means of obedience to the Law. Then he reveals that the righteousness of God is in Christ, who is the end of the law [covenant] to everyone who believes.
                      See:
                      “How God’s Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh”

                      Romans 10:5: For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.”

                      Paul is still speaking about the relationship of Israel with Jehovah, the God of Israel. Anyone who could keep the Law would be totally righteous, having the right to life thereby. If it were possible to do so, then righteousness and life would have come by the Law. — Galatians 3:21.

                      Romans 10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down);
                      Romans 10:7: or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)”

                      Those who seek righteousness by faith are are, to the extent that God permits, hidden from the truth. It is not something far off in heaven or in the grave. Those of faith do not have go to heaven to find the Anointed One of Jehovah, nor do they have to go to the grave to try to bring him back from the dead. This thing is not hidden from the one of faith, neither is it afar off — difficult to understand. (See also: Deuteronomy 30:11-14; notice that Paul is not directly quoting Deuteronomy, but he does use similar phraseology.)

                      In this Paul is still writing about the relationship of Israel with the God of Israel, Jehovah. He is showing that the proper way to obtain the righteousness of God is through faith, which he goes on to show is through faith in the ransom sacrifice given by the one whom Jehovah has anointed and sent, that is, Jesus.

                      Romans 10:8: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
                      Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

                      Here Paul points out the way to Jehovah’s righteousness as provided through Jesus. (John 3:17; Romans 3:22-24; 5:1,9,10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Galatians 4:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) We must remember that it is Jehovah who made Jesus “Lord” and “Christ” [Christ means “anointed one”] (Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36) Many read this verse as though only Jesus is spoken of, but we note the context is about Jehovah, the God of Israel, and the salvation he provides through Jesus. “God” in Romans 10:9 refers to only one person, the same person Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 8:6 as being the source of all, He who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Exodus 3:14,15 and Acts 3:13-26.

                      Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                      Romans 10:11: For the scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

                      In Romans 10:11, Paul uses language similar to that of Isaiah 28:16: “So, the Lord Jehovah says this: Behold, I place in Zion a Stone for a foundation, a tried Stone, a precious Cornerstone, a sure Foundation; he who believes shall not hasten.” (Green’s Literal) Here is it Jehovah who is the provider of the sure foundation, and then he tells us that he who believes in him, that is, in the foundation provided by Jehovah, shall not be in haste. The one of faith does not have to be anxious about trying to find any other source or any other way of salvation, for it is found in the sure foundation provided by Jehovah, nor does the one of faith in this sure foundation have any reason to have any hint of disappointment or shame in the foundation provided by Jehovah.

                      Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.

                      Here the apostle joins the God of Israel — the God and Father of Jesus — with the believing Greeks (representing those outside the law covenant). Jehovah is the same Lord (the One spoken of as Adonay (or, Adonai) in Isaiah 28:16 just referenced) over all, and will richly bless all who call on him.

                      The “Lord of all” is here evidently referring, not to Jesus, but rather the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1, He who anointed Jesus, making Jesus both Christ and Lord. — Acts 2:36.

                      Romans 10:13: For, “Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

                      This brings us to the scripture in question. Paul here makes reference to whoever will call upon the name of Jehovah will be saved. If we consider scriptures leading up to this scripture, it should be plain that Paul is making reference to Jehovah, the God of Israel, with whom both Jew and Gentile needs reconciliation. That reconciliation, however, as the apostle points out, is by faith, not by the keeping of the law. While we highly doubt that Paul substituted “Kurios” here for God’s name, even if he did it should be evident that he is referring to Jehovah for it is Jehovah with whom both Jew and Gentile needs to be reconciled (Romans 5:9,10), and it is from Jehovah, the Father, that a means for salvation has been provided, that is, through his Son, Jesus. — Acts 10:43; 20:21; John 3:17; 6:44; Hebrews 1:1,2.

                      Romans 10:14: How, then, shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And shall they hear without a preacher?

                      Again in verse 14 the thought is primarily of Jehovah, who sent his Son. No one can call upon Jehovah if they don’t believe in him through his Son, Jesus. (Romans 3:22-24; 5:1,11; 7:25; 14:26) The vast majority have never come to Jehovah, he who provided the “ransom for all”, which will be testified, made known, in due time. (1 Timothy 2:5,6) Thus, in due time, all heathen will hear, and they will all be brought to a knowledge of Jehovah and his Son Christ Jesus in the age to come. — Isaiah 2:2-4.

                      What we do not find in Romans 10, or anywhere else in the Bible, is the concept of a triune God. No such God is ever revealed in the Bible. Nor, does Romans 10 reveal the concept that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Exodus 3:14,15, as many read into several scriptures. If Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who spoke through Moses and the prophets, then, to be consistent, one would have to reason that it is Jesus in Hebrews 1:1,2 who speaks through his son, which of course, is not true.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      You asked if God has a God. The answer is no, because there is only one God. The Son calls the Father “God” in John 20:17 and the Father calls the Son “God” in Hebrews 1:8 and believers can call the Lord Jesus “my God” (John 20:28), because there is only one Triune God..
                      I have already addressed the passages leading up to Romans 10:13 elsewhere. It wouldn’t make any sense for the Jews to call on the Father for salvation in Romans 10:13 because they have already done that.
                      Paul teaches that it is to Jesus being Jehovah that they must call upon. Romans 10:9 speaks of the confession of Jesus as “Lord.” Verses 10, 11, 12, 13 all begin with “for” showing that the “Lord” is in reference to Jesus. Indeed, Romans 10:11 corresponds to Romans 9:33 where believing in “Him” also refers to Jesus (see too with 1 Peter 2:6). Furthermore, the “Lord of all” in Romans 10:12 also refers to the Lord Jesus elsewhere (Acts 10:36). The evidence is just too insurmountable to ignore or deny.

                      And as mentioned earlier, there are other texts which also teach that YHWH of the Old Testament is applied directly unto the Lord Jesus in the New Testament.

                    • Chris John's

                      Marc,
                      Hebrews 1:8 isnt thebes ok not possible translation. Even the ASV which us extremely accurate in the footnotes shows that ” God is your throne forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of his kingdom.” This correction has been made in the updated ASV.
                      No one in the MT thought jesus was YHWH. They knew he was the Son of God. Even in the scene of doubting Thomas the referred to Jesus as the Son of God. Not God the Son. “But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”

                      So even after his ressurection they didnt believe that Jesus was God but that he was the Son of God. As for John 20:28 you need to review Granville Sharps rule of Greek grammar to show jesus is no ot God.

                      As for Roman’s 10:13 the whole.passage has the main subject as God. Not jesus. Reread what I posted before this. Its lengthy but awesome explanation.

                    • Chris John's

                      Marc,
                      Hebrews 1:8 isnt the only possible translation. Even the ASV which us extremely accurate in the footnotes shows that ” God is your throne forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of his kingdom.” This correction has been made in the updated ASV.
                      No one in the NT thought jesus was YHWH. They knew he was the Son of God. Even in the scene of doubting Thomas the referred to Jesus as the Son of God. Not God the Son. “But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”

                      So even after his ressurection they didnt believe that Jesus was God but that he was the Son of God. As for John 20:28 you need to review Granville Sharps rule of Greek grammar to show jesus is not God.

                      As for Roman’s 10:13 the whole.passage has the main subject as God. Not jesus. Reread what I posted before this. Its lengthy but awesome explanation.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      None of the evidence I gave concerning Romans 10:13 is in reference to Jesus was refuted. In terms of Hebrews 1:8 notice Hebrews 1:10 does the same thing that Romans 10:13 does – apply YHWH from the Old Testament unto the Lord Jesus – as does 1 Peter 2:3, as does 1 Peter 3:15 etc., etc.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Marc. The whole context of Romans 10 is God. Not jesus. He is mentioned though. Also Hebrews 1:8 does not say “Thy Throne of God” becasue that means in Psalms God would be calling David God. Look up the info I posted. Not difficult man.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Still none of the evidence I gave concerning Romans 10 has been refuted.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      How can the Lord Jesus not be YHWH when
                      1. Peter applies YHWH from Psalm 34:8 unto Him in 1 Peter 2:3?
                      2. Peter applies YHWH from Isaiah 8:13 unto Him in 1 Peter 3:15?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – I looked up all these verses and I think you quoted the wrong verses. I don’t see the connection. Please explain.

                      Perhaps you were thinking of Jeremiah 23:5,6 which is commented on by Br. Russell in Volume 5 starting on page 42.

                      , “I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth….And this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Jer. 23:5,6
                      Evidently our Lord Jesus and his Millennial reign are referred to; and the name in the Hebrew is Jehovah-Tsidkenu. What is the explanation? Merely this: the translators, in their zeal to find a place where the name Jehovah was associated with Jesus as a name, have given us a poor translation. No difficulty would appear if it had been translated, “This is the name with which he shall be called, Our Righteousness of Jehovah.” And how appropriate is this name to the work and office of our Lord Jesus. Did he not stand as the representative of God’s righteousness and suffer the penalty of Justice as man’s ransom—that God might be just and yet be the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus? Surely no name could be more appropriate.
                      It should not be overlooked, that this same name precisely, Jehovah Tsidkenu, occurs again in the writings of the same Prophet. But our friends never call attention to it, and the translators, although rendering it by the same English words, do not put those words in large capital letters as in the other case. Why? Because the connections show that Jehovah Tsidkenu will be the name of the entire Church, the New Jerusalem; “And this is the name wherewith she shall be called [Jehovah Tsidkenu], our Righteousness of Jehovah.” Jer. 33:16
                      And that this name will be appropriate to the glorified Church all can readily see: she not only shares her Lord’s sufferings for righteousness “filling up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ” (Col. 1:24; 1 Pet. 5:9), but is also promised a share in all the glories of her Lord, as a wife shares her husband’s honors and name: just as the Church bears the name of Christ as members of the body of Christ. Rev. 3:12; 19:7; 21:9
                      [E43]
                      Nor are these the only instances of the name Jehovah being used to compound another name. Note that the mount upon which Abraham offered Isaac and where God provided him a ram for sacrifice as a substitute for Isaac, was called by him, Mount of Jehovah’s Providence—Jehovah-Jireh. (Gen. 22:14) Moses named an altar which he built Jehovah-Nissi or Banner of Jehovah. (Exod. 17:15) Gideon built an altar and called its name Jehovah-Shalom—The Peace of Jehovah. (Judges 6:23,24) Ezekiel prophesied of a city to come, whose name shall be Jehovah-Shammah—The Wonder of Jehovah—Ezek. 48:35.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Marc
                      Thank again. ISAIAH 8:13 isnt applied to jesus in 1 Pet 3:15. Notice the distinctions in 1 Peter Chapter 3 between God and Christ. That’s simple.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Ugh.

                      1 Peter 2:3 was totally ignored while 1 Peter 3:15 you resorted to using an unreliable text.

                      Try this:
                      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A15&version=NASB

                      And the evidence I gave concerning Romans 10:13 HAS STILL not been addressed.

                      Thanks everyone for your discussion. I can’t continue when the points I bring up keep getting repeatedly ignored

                    • Chris Johns

                      Marc. Romans 10 has been discussed here in dept. I’ll post it again here. Notice the difference between God and Christ through all of Romans 10

                      Pretty interesting here.

                      Jesus and Jehovah (Yahweh)

                      Romans 10:13 – Whoever Will Call On The Name Of Jehovah

                      “For, `Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah will be saved [Joel 2:32].’” — Romans 10:13

                      Some try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) by pointing to Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32. The argument is made that Paul is here calling Jesus “Lord”. Since this is a reference to Joel 2:32, where it tells us that whoever calls on the name of Jehovah will be delivered, trinitarians as well as oneness believers claim that this means that Jesus is the same (sentient?) being (or person, in the case of our “oneness” neighbors) as Jehovah. Some translations render Romans 10:13 as calling upon Jehovah or Yahweh.

                      Certainly, Jesus is the means that Jehovah has provided for salvation (John 3:16,17), no one can come to Jehovah but through Jesus (John 14:6), and no other means has been given by Jehovah for salvation than the name of Jesus. (Acts 4:12) Jesus’ name means: “Jehovah saves” or “Jehovah is savior,” which ascribes the actual source of salvation to Jehovah, as all things are of Jehovah, through Jesus. (John 3:16; Romans 5:8,10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 15:57; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; Titus 3:5,6; Hebrews 13:21; 1 John 4:9,10) Thus to properly call upon the name of Jesus as the spokesperson and one anointed by Jehovah (Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19; Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Matthew 12:18; Luke 4:18,21; Acts 3:13-26), would essentially be the same as calling upon the name of Jehovah. (Matthew 10:14; Mark 9:37; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; Romans 1:8; 7:25; 14:26; Philippians 1:11; 2:11) But to ascertain whether Romans 10:13 is calling Jesus “Jehovah”, let us go through the tenth chapter of Romans briefly, to see exactly who Paul speaks of.

                      Romans 10:1: Brothers, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved.

                      In verse one, Paul says he prays to God for the salvation of Israel. Who is the God of Israel? This, of course, is Jehovah. (Exodus 3:14,15; 16:12; 20:2; 34:32) In the New Testament, we learn that the God of Israel — Jehovah — is the Father of Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19; Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35; John 5:43; 8:54; 10:25; Hebrews 1:1,2) Paul thus recognizes Yahweh, the God of Israel as the source of salvation.

                      Romans 10:2: For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.”
                      Romans 10:3: For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn’t subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”
                      Romans 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                      In these verses, Paul discusses Israel’s relationship with God — Jehovah. He says that they are ignorant of God’s righteousness (Romans 3:22), and sought to make themselves righteous by means of obedience to the Law. Then he reveals that the righteousness of God is in Christ, who is the end of the law [covenant] to everyone who believes.
                      See:
                      “How God’s Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh”

                      Romans 10:5: For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.”

                      Paul is still speaking about the relationship of Israel with Jehovah, the God of Israel. Anyone who could keep the Law would be totally righteous, having the right to life thereby. If it were possible to do so, then righteousness and life would have come by the Law. — Galatians 3:21.

                      Romans 10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down);
                      Romans 10:7: or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)”

                      Those who seek righteousness by faith are are, to the extent that God permits, hidden from the truth. It is not something far off in heaven or in the grave. Those of faith do not have go to heaven to find the Anointed One of Jehovah, nor do they have to go to the grave to try to bring him back from the dead. This thing is not hidden from the one of faith, neither is it afar off — difficult to understand. (See also: Deuteronomy 30:11-14; notice that Paul is not directly quoting Deuteronomy, but he does use similar phraseology.)

                      In this Paul is still writing about the relationship of Israel with the God of Israel, Jehovah. He is showing that the proper way to obtain the righteousness of God is through faith, which he goes on to show is through faith in the ransom sacrifice given by the one whom Jehovah has anointed and sent, that is, Jesus.

                      Romans 10:8: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
                      Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

                      Here Paul points out the way to Jehovah’s righteousness as provided through Jesus. (John 3:17; Romans 3:22-24; 5:1,9,10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Galatians 4:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) We must remember that it is Jehovah who made Jesus “Lord” and “Christ” [Christ means “anointed one”] (Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36) Many read this verse as though only Jesus is spoken of, but we note the context is about Jehovah, the God of Israel, and the salvation he provides through Jesus. “God” in Romans 10:9 refers to only one person, the same person Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 8:6 as being the source of all, He who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Exodus 3:14,15 and Acts 3:13-26.

                      Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                      Romans 10:11: For the scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

                      In Romans 10:11, Paul uses language similar to that of Isaiah 28:16: “So, the Lord Jehovah says this: Behold, I place in Zion a Stone for a foundation, a tried Stone, a precious Cornerstone, a sure Foundation; he who believes shall not hasten.” (Green’s Literal) Here is it Jehovah who is the provider of the sure foundation, and then he tells us that he who believes in him, that is, in the foundation provided by Jehovah, shall not be in haste. The one of faith does not have to be anxious about trying to find any other source or any other way of salvation, for it is found in the sure foundation provided by Jehovah, nor does the one of faith in this sure foundation have any reason to have any hint of disappointment or shame in the foundation provided by Jehovah.

                      Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.

                      Here the apostle joins the God of Israel — the God and Father of Jesus — with the believing Greeks (representing those outside the law covenant). Jehovah is the same Lord (the One spoken of as Adonay (or, Adonai) in Isaiah 28:16 just referenced) over all, and will richly bless all who call on him.

                      The “Lord of all” is here evidently referring, not to Jesus, but rather the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1, He who anointed Jesus, making Jesus both Christ and Lord. — Acts 2:36.

                      Romans 10:13: For, “Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

                      This brings us to the scripture in question. Paul here makes reference to whoever will call upon the name of Jehovah will be saved. If we consider scriptures leading up to this scripture, it should be plain that Paul is making reference to Jehovah, the God of Israel, with whom both Jew and Gentile needs reconciliation. That reconciliation, however, as the apostle points out, is by faith, not by the keeping of the law. While we highly doubt that Paul substituted “Kurios” here for God’s name, even if he did it should be evident that he is referring to Jehovah for it is Jehovah with whom both Jew and Gentile needs to be reconciled (Romans 5:9,10), and it is from Jehovah, the Father, that a means for salvation has been provided, that is, through his Son, Jesus. — Acts 10:43; 20:21; John 3:17; 6:44; Hebrews 1:1,2.

                      Romans 10:14: How, then, shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And shall they hear without a preacher?

                      Again in verse 14 the thought is primarily of Jehovah, who sent his Son. No one can call upon Jehovah if they don’t believe in him through his Son, Jesus. (Romans 3:22-24; 5:1,11; 7:25; 14:26) The vast majority have never come to Jehovah, he who provided the “ransom for all”, which will be testified, made known, in due time. (1 Timothy 2:5,6) Thus, in due time, all heathen will hear, and they will all be brought to a knowledge of Jehovah and his Son Christ Jesus in the age to come. — Isaiah 2:2-4.

                      What we do not find in Romans 10, or anywhere else in the Bible, is the concept of a triune God. No such God is ever revealed in the Bible. Nor, does Romans 10 reveal the concept that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Exodus 3:14,15, as many read into several scriptures. If Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who spoke through Moses and the prophets, then, to be consistent, one would have to reason that it is Jesus in Hebrews 1:1,2 who speaks through his son, which of course, is not true.

                    • Christopher Johns

                      But marc it’s been fun. Imma leave that last comment as it stands. I just hope we both can come to truth. Have a great Sunday.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Thank you Chris.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – It is interesting that you cannot find the Tri-Unity taught in Church history. I would think that if this were taught in the Bible we would find it in among the writings of the early church. However, I agree that the debate should be in the scriptures themselves. If this is the case then the discussion is futile since all evidence for the Trinity is indirect inferences. There is no Bible passage that describes the Trinity, that it is one God made up of three persons. Since god Theos and Elohim) also can refer to angels and men, to take this indirect inference ant to say that when Jesus is called god (Theos or Elohim) that it proves he is Yahweh fails in that we would have to make Herod, Satan, angels etc to be Yahweh as well. Marc – once we have any point of view, given enough time, we can find Bible verses we can misapply to prove our point of view. So honestly, I think this discussion is futile since there is not end to indirect inferences. If you want to continue the discussion, I recommend that you focus on one of tow areas to disprove: 1) That Jesus had a beginning and 2) that the holy spirit is God’s power, not a person.

                      Actually, I would prefer to continue with the topic of Salvation – which I provided a link to you of about 100 scriptures which indicate unbelievers will be raised to life from the dead on earth during the 1,000 years in which Satan is bound. If true, then both Trinitarians and Non-Trinitarians will be raised from the dead. Those not part of the heavenly resurrection will come back to a judgment period on earth where they will have the opportunity to follow Jesus. Should what is meant by Salvation (the benefits of Jesus’ sacrifice) be the most important topic to discuss. It settles whether over over 90% of mankind goes forever to Hell or comes back to life on earth with the opportunity worship and obey Yahweh and live forever on earth.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hi Peter,

                      Peter applies YHWH of Psalm 34:8 unto the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 2:3. Peter also applies YHWH of Isaiah 8:13 unto the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 3:15. I know of no one else, besides Himself, that “YHWH” is properly applied unto.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc,

                      Let’s look at your verses.

                      1 Peter 2:3 (NKJV) “if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious <5543>.”
                      Psalm 34:8 (NKJV) “Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!”

                      The Apostle Peter is NOT quoting Psalms 34:8. We too are admonished to be gracious <5543> in Eph 4:32. This does not make us part of the Trinity

                      Eph 4:32 And be ye kind <5543> one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

                      Now to your other texts:

                      1 Peter 3:15 (NKJV) “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear”
                      Isaiah 8:13 (NKJV) “The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.”

                      The “Lord God” in 1 Peter 3:15 is Yahweh, not Jesus. 1 Peter 1:3 speaks of our “Lord Jesus Christ.” So you have no evidence for the Trinity here. When we find the word “Lord” context determines who is referred to.

                      Below are a couple of examples where “Lord” does not refer to Yahweh or Jesus. Many more examples can be cited. So when Jesus is called “Lord” that would not prove he is Yahweh.

                      Mt 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir <2962>, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

                      Mt 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord <2962>: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters <2962>’ table.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hello Peter,

                      Since this page deals with prayer I would prefer to staying with this topic and how it relates to the fact that the Lord Jesus is God. I originally commented here in response to your assertion that “We should not pray directly to Jesus” (December 24, 2014). The fact that He is the proper recipient of prayer has been addressed by me in my first response (December 8, 2019). The Lord Jesus is most definitely the proper recipient of prayer.
                      Matthew 28:19 teaches the Trinity. The singular “Name” encompasses the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
                      I have already addressed the use of “god” applying to others. No one else, but God alone, is to be referred to as “my God.” That is the distinction (cf. John 20:28).

                      There is not one passage that demonstrates the Lord Jesus is not God.
                      The Holy Spirit is not simply God’s power but He is also a Person – notice the “Me” in Acts 13:2. And He has an omniscient “mind” (Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10) – an impersonal power does not have a mind.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Peter is most definitely quoting Psalm 34:8. BDAG (3rd Edition) reads: in OT quotations, where it is understood of the Lord of the new community…1 Pt 2:3 (cp. Ps. 33:9) (kyrios, page 577=578). Psalm 33:9 is from the LXX.
                      Christians are to be gracious but nowhere are we referred to by an OT text in application of YHWH. Huge difference.

                      Concerning 1 Peter 3:15, a more modern version reads: but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (NASB).

                      The two passages you gave (Matthew 13:27; 15:27) are not based on OT texts in reference to YHWH and then applied to these people. YHWH can be (and is) applied to the Lord Jesus because He is YHWH.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – Just because your authority says that Peter is quoting Psalms 34:8 does not prove it. Psalms 34:8 is not even provided as a references in “The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge” which provides the largest list of cross references I am aware of. Same is true of 1 Pet 3:15 – The TSK does not list Isaiah 8:13 as a cross reference.

                      I do see that some manuscripts include “Christ” in 1 Peter 3:15, so I will grant you that, however I do not agree with you that Peter is quoting Isaiah 8:13 since there is only one word in common between the two texts “sanctify” or “hallow”

                      Your evidence is weak and would only be arrived at by someone having the preconceived notion of the Trinity and looking for evidence to support it.

                      That ONE GOD would be composed of three persons is not taught by even one Bible verse. Why can we NOT find a Bible verse that says that the ONE GOD is composed of three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? This is a pagan notion borrowed from pagan religious beliefs and compromised and forced to fit into the ONE GOD teaching of the Bible.

                    • Anonymous

                      Hi Peter,

                      1 Peter 2:3 is listed with Psalm 34:8 from the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:

                      taste
                      63:5 119:103 Solomon 2:3 ; 5:1 Hebrews 6:4 Hebrews 6:5 ; 1 Peter 2:2 1 Peter 2:3 ; 1 John 1:1-3
                      https://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/treasury-of-scripture-knowledge/psalms-34-8.html

                      There is more than just one word in common between the two texts (Hebrews 8:13 and 1 Peter 3:15). There is “Lord”, “sanctify”, and “fear”. That is three words. Considering how short Hebrews 8:13 is in the LXX that is quite a lot.

                      The one Bible verse that teaches God is composed of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is Matthew 28:19.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      In one of our articles we say

                      Eusebius, a fourth century writer, had the greatest library of any early church scribe. It contained manuscripts of the new testament that were at least 200 years older than any existing today. Manuscripts copied by Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others not available today gave him access to almost original material. Eusebius cites Matthew 28:19 eighteen times in his work, always in the same form: “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”

                      When he comments on the verse, Eusebius places great stress on the phrase, “in my name.” Apparently his sources, Origen, Clement and Justin Martyr, excluded “father” and “holy spirit” from this scripture

                      Find more here:
                      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/10/28/in-whose-name-are-we-to-be-baptized/

                    • Marc Taylor

                      So how do you think Matthew 28:19 reads?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Please cite one Greek manuscript that supports this rendering of the text.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      It is evident from the consistent repetetive writings of the earliest Church fathers that their earlier manuscripts read this way. As the antichrist system took over it seems they altered later manuscripts to comply with Trinitatian dogma.

                      For arguements sake let’s say you are correct. As the article points out, why then did the disciples disobey Jesus’ command and always baptize in Jesus name only. Roman 6 has us baptized into Christ, not the Trinity.

                      Also if we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, how would that convince us of the Trinity unless we already had that point of view? That verse as you read it falls far short of proving the Trinity.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      I know of no Greek manuscript of the NT that reads any different than the mentioning of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
                      https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/3243-why-i-do-not-trust-the-nt/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-9804

                      The Apostles did not disobey Jesus’ command.
                      Robert Bowman and J. Ed Komoszewski: These statements supplement rather than contradict Matthew 28:19, which speaks of baptizing “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Neither Matthew 28:19 nor the passages in Acts are specifying the words to say in a baptismal ceremony; the New Testament, in fact, contains no record of words spoken at a baptismal ceremony. In Matthew, just as much as in Acts, the focus of disciple making is commitment to Jesus Christ. Hence, in Matthew 28:18-20 those who believe are to recognize his universal authority (v. 18), become Jesus’ disciples (v. 19a), be baptized in the Son’s name as well as the Father’s and the Holy Spirit’s (v. 19b), observe all that Jesus taught (v. 20a), and live in the awareness of his presence (v. 20b) (Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, page 303, footnote #4).

                      Notice the “name” in Matthew 28:19 is singular and yet the definite article (“the”) is used in reference to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit showing that this singular name encompasses all 3 of them.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc,

                      In the article I quoted several scriptures where people were baptized in Jesus’ name. For example:

                      Acts 2:38 (NKJV) Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

                      So the Apostles and disciples were not following Jesus’ instructions if we accept that “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” is what the original Bible writing actually says.

                      So Marc, I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you willing to tell us a little bit about yourself? If not, okay, but at this point I have to admit I am curious.

                      What Church denomination do you belong to?

                      Why is it so important for you to debate the Trinity?

                      What other topics are you open to debating? It seems you are avoiding the topic of Salvation.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      They were following Christ’s instructions. A name can represent authority. To be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is to be water baptized under His authority – and He authorized the first believers to be baptized in the name of the Triune God.

                      I am a Reformed Baptist.

                      I debate the Trinity because this is who the true God is. Furthermore, Jude 1:3 informs us to contend earnestly for the faith. The faith that Paul attempted to destroy (Galatians 1:23) referred to those who called upon (worshiped) the Lord Jesus (Act 9:21) as being YHWH (Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2).

                      I also enjoy discussing/debating:

                      (1) The fact that all who are Christians today have been baptized with the Holy Spirit upon conversion.

                      (2) Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were saved before they were water baptized. So this does have to do with salvation.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – What is the future of those who love the Father and Son, study the Bible daily and reject the Trinity? Heaven? Hell?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Peter,
                      Those who reject the Trinity do not love the Father and Son. They have a false god and a false god can not save anyone.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – How can you make such a heartless claim without even attempting to consider the nearly hundred Salvation Bible verses I provided to you previously at this link?
                      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/

                      Aren’t you willing to look at plain Salvation Bible verses as written without human spin?

                      Is your view the same as how Jesus practices his teaching to love our enemies?

                      If I understand you correctly, the best possible future for me is hell or eternal separation from God.

                      In my view of plainly stated scriptures, the worst that can happen to you is an awakening on earth after death to participate in God’s kingdom on earth with an opportunity to learn mercy with a balanced sense of God’s justice. Then you can become a more loving person.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Peter,

                      I try to speak the truth in love. I am not going to sacrifice what the truth is – that wouldn’t be a loving thing to do. If a person thought that drinking poison was ok and I warned them not to would that be unloving even though he/she really believed it would be ok to do? No. It would be a loving thing for me to warn him/her about that.

                      1. Jude 1:3 says to “earnestly contend for the faith.”
                      2. Galatians 1:23 affirms that Paul attempted to “destroy” the “faith.”
                      3. Acts 9:21 teaches that Paul tried to “destroy” those who “called on” the name of the Lord Jesus. Thus “the faith” encompasses calling on the name of the Lord Jesus.
                      4. What does it mean to call on the name of the Lord Jesus? It means to pray to Him in that He is YHWH (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2). Those who refuse to believe and do so are not part of “the faith.” Therefore they are not Christians.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – Based on on what you believe the Bible teaches, your approach is honest and honorable, even if I do not believe you are being honest with yourself.

                      I believe you have the zeal and sincerity of Saul of Tarsus. Just as he became the greatest Apostle you have great potential to lead people to the true love of God.

                      That path requires opening your mind to scriptures conflicting with your teaching. You admit to not being deeply studied on salvation. Yet when twice given an opportunity to review nearly 100 scriptures on Salvation, you ignore it and stay in your safe zone.

                      Open your mind to more scriptures Marc and discover the true love of God.

                      Let me ask you this Marc – If hypothetically God entrusted you with the eternal judgement of 100 righteous men who were all good Samaritans and who died without accepting Jesus as their Savior, half of which never heard of Jesus, would you send them all to Hell?

                      Where else would you send them if not to hell?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hi Peter,

                      God knows His sheep and will protect all of His own (John 10:27-29).

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Merry Christmas Marc.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Thank you. Merry Christmas to you as well.

                • Richard.Tazzyman

                  Hello Marc,you have not commented on what Jesus meant in Mathew 20:23.This is where the Mother of the Sons of Zebedee aproached Jesus & asked him for her sons to sit on his right & Left in the kingdom, “He said to them:you will indeed drink my cup,BUT TO SIT DOWN AT MY RIGHT HAND & AT MY LEFT IS NOT MINE TO GIVE(really,you mean that Jesus,according to Trinitarians,could not give what they asked for,WHY?)because “IT BELONGS TO THOSE FOR WHOM IT HAS BEEN PREPARED BY MY FATHER!!!!That is a plain statement,that any one can understand.And as stated before,Jesus said “The FATHER IS GREATER THAN I!!Again plain language,no twisting or distorting is needed .That is what JEHOVAH Intended when he used his holy spirit to convey to us In his the Divine Plan of the Ages.Richard.Bible Student Australia.

                  • Marc Taylor

                    Hello Richard,
                    It was not for Jesus to give such information “right now” to those making such a request self-centered request. Christ will not take advantage of His power like and earthly ruler would (Matthew 20:25f.). We see that the Father and the Son both participate in the calling and choosing of man (Luke 6:13; John 17:2). Their knowledge of each other is thorough and complete – omniscient (Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 10:15). Remember, Christ took upon Himself the form of a servant (Philippians 2:6) and thus spoke only the words that the Father wanted Him to speak (John 12:49-50). So of course Jesus would proclaim that the Father is greater than He (John 14:28). This is what a servant would do. As an American I can say that the President of the United States is greater than I. But in both situations functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hello Chris,
                      I’d like to see some lexical backing for your assertion because I found this:
                      1. BDAG (3rd Edition): Concerning John 20:28 states that theos “certainly refers to Christ” (theos, page 450).
                      2. NIDNTT: Jn. 20:28 contains the unique affirmation of Thomas addressing the Risen Christ as God: “My Lord and my God [ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou].” (2:81, God, J. Schneider).
                      3. TDNT: In reference to Christ in John 20:28, “He is God for believers” (3:106, theos, Stauffer).
                      4. A. T. Robertson: Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/john-20.html
                      5. Murray Harris: The Prologue ends (1:18) as it begins (1:1), and the Gospel ends (20:28) as it begins (1:1), with an assertion of the deity of Jesus (Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, page 128).

                    • Chris Johns

                      John 20:28

                      The Granville Sharp First and Sixth Rules

                      The Granville Sharp First Rule of Greek Grammar states that when you have a TSKS construction, only one person is being identified. In simple terms, this means a THE-NOUN-AND-NOUN word construction. So if a person wanted to refer to Jesus as his Lord and God it would be stated in Greek as, “the Lord and God of me.” Essentially, one definite article (“the”) indicates one person is in view. Trinitarians insist upon this rule at Titus 2:13 and allow no one any exceptions. However, this is not the construction Thomas used at John 20:28. Thomas used the construction which Greek speakers used to refer to two persons.

                      The Granville Sharp first rule was the result of research by a man named Granville Sharp. However, it is not enough for someone to say that such a Greek construction demonstrated only one person is in view. He had to also demonstrate that a Greek speaker would say such words differently if two persons were in view instead of one.

                      The Granville Sharp Sixth Rule states that when you have a TSKTS construction, two persons are in view. In simple terms, this is a THE-NOUN-AND-THE-NOUN construction. So if you wanted to refer to both your Lord and another identity who is your God, you would say, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” Essentially, two definite articles (“the”) indicates two persons are in view. One definite article, one person, two definite articles, two persons. However, while Trinitarians allow no one any exceptions to the first GS rule at Titus 2:13, they completely deny the sixth GS rule at John 20:28 and make a convenient exception for themselves for the sake of their doctrine.

                      2. Further Grammar Observations

                      Thomas not only used the Greek convention to signify two persons, he also did something else which indicates two persons are being identified. Thomas also did not say, “the Lord and the God of me.” He actually said, “the Lord OF ME and the God OF ME.” This further indicates that Thomas had two persons in view.

                      3.The Grammar of the Context

                      At John 20:17, Jesus speaks and uses the Greek convention to signify one person, “THE Father of me and Father of you and God of me and God of you.” This is even further evidence that Thomas did not refer to one person but to two persons. John’s grammar convention is to use one definite article for one person as we see in John 20:17 only a few verses prior to John 20:28. The “of me” vs. “of you” expressions are simply alternating and contrasting ways necessary for Jesus to make his point.

                      4. What Jesus said about Seeing and Believing

                      The grammatical evidence that Thomas was referring to two persons is very weighty. So now we must inquire as to whether there is any other evidence this could be the case, especially from John’s Gospel since John 20:28 appears in John’s Gospel. And indeed, Jesus gives a very clear teaching that exactly pertains to our question.

                      We have seen that preceding verse and the following verse of John 20:28, the immediate context, is about seeing and believing. Thomas’ statement is embedded and framed by Jesus’ comments on seeing and believing. Jesus explained on at least two occasions what it means to see and believe in him – that to see and believe in him was to see and believe in the Father.

                      And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.” (John 12:44-45).

                      He who has seen Me has seen the Father. (John 14:9).

                      My Lord and My God. (John 20:28).

                    • Chris Johns

                      And another.

                      Did Thomas address Jesus as God in John 20:28?
                      Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”

                      Let’s read the verse in context.

                      24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

                      But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

                      26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

                      28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

                      29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

                      For many who hold the Trinity Doctrine, John 20:28 is clear cut. Jesus is called God by Thomas and Jesus didn’t rebuke or correct him. This verse is one of the most used proof verses for the Trinity, so is the smoking gun verse for the Trinity?

                      The words that Thomas’ spoke to Jesus literally mean ‘the Lord of me and the God of me’. This is simply an address to two identities. If Thomas wanted to say that Jesus was Lord and God too, he would have said: ‘the Lord and God of me’. It seems easy to accept that when addressing Jesus Christ, that you could address God too. Certainly when we give thanks we often thank Jesus and God and we are encouraged to do so in scripture too.

                      Ephesians 5:20
                      always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      Now read up on the Granville Sharp’s rule and then read Thomas words again and you will see that both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are each preceded with the definite  article (‘the’). Both nouns, (1) and (2) are qualified by the words ‘of me’. Thomas could have said, “the Lord and God of me.” if he wanted to convey that Jesus was both.

                      The pattern we see in scripture is that there is God and his son. Paul carefully distinguishes them throughout his letters and speaks about both in the same sentence or verse. For example:

                      Timothy 5:21 says: “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels”.Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

                      But it is not just Paul who makes this distinction clear.

                      1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,John 20:17 Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

                      Now when we read the words of Thomas, it is easy to see that they merely follow the same distinction. But let’s for a minute ignore all this and assume that he did call Jesus both. The first thing to consider would be that he could actually be wrong. Secondly, it still doesn’t teach the Trinity as the so-called third member doesn’t get a mention. However, I am sure if you are reasonable and study these words in the Greek, you will see that the above is correct.

                      GRANVILLE SHARP’S RULE

                      When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.‘” (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)

                      “Basically, Granville Sharp’s rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word ‘and,’ and the first noun has the article (‘the’) while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.” – James White.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      I’d like to see where Sharpe applies these rules to John 20:28. Please reference a link or citation for your assertion. For Thomas “said unto Him.”

                    • Chris Johns

                      Marc. It won’t let me post links. Each time I do it won’t post.

                    • Richard.Tazzyman

                      Hello Marc,This is not the case-Read what the scripture says”It is not MINE TO give.You are trying to twist/alter what he said.Also In answer to what Bro Chris Johns quoted about Thomas,It was Thomas speaking-Not Jesus or Jehovah speaking,Jesus is called a Mighty God,But NEVER,NEVER-The ALMIGHTY GOD!.In fact just a few verses before in John 20:17,He Said “Stop clinging to me ,for I have not yet ascended to the Father.But go to my brothers and say to them,’I am ascending to (Where?)MY FATHER & your father & TO MY GOD & your God.”That is very easy to understand-we cannot put our own slant on it.Jesus called JEHOVAH-MY GOD & your God.Richard.Tazzyman Bible Student,Australia

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hi Richard,
                      I am not twisting what Christ said. I am aware of what He said, but it must be viewed (1) in light of the context and (2) His then current status as a servant.
                      In terms of Jesus never being called “The Almighty God,” there is more than one way to express a truth claim. He is the Almighty in that (1) YHWH is properly applied unto Him – notice not just once or twice, but several times so there is really no excuse to deny that he is the Almighty (2) He is properly referred to by Thomas as “my God” – the appeal to Granville Sharp’s rules doesn’t at all diminish this.
                      https://trinitydelusion.org/john-2028/
                      and (3) the Lord Jesus possesses all power (Matthew 28:18), which is the same thing as saying He is omnipotent (Almighty).
                      https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/6284-the-all-powerful-almighty-lord-jesus-matthew-2818/?tab=comments#comment-35312
                      Jesus can call the Father His God (John 20:17) and the Father can call Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8) and believers can call Jesus “my God” (John 20:28). This accords with Trinitarianism.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Hi Marc,

                      Whenever Jesus is described by whatever word as the greatest, this is in context of the greatest of all creation, with God being the exception. This principle is clearly explained

                      1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (NKJV) “27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
                      28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”

                      When Jesus is called god, the Greek word is “theos” meaning “mighty one.” This does not make Jesus Jehovah. Similar answer for Old Testament “Elohim.” To keep it brief, let’s look just at “theos” for now.

                      THEOS
                      It is simply a fact that the Greek word for “god,(” Strong’s 2316 “theos”), does not exclusively apply to Jehovah in the Bible”
                      For example:
                      1. “Theos” is applied to Satan in 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV), “the god [“theos”] of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving.”
                      2. The Jewish people called Herod “theos” in Acts 12:22 (ASV), “And the people kept crying out, “The voice of a god (“theos”) and not of a man!”
                      3. In John 10:34, Jesus quoting from Psa 82:6 said, “Is it not written in your law, `I said, You are gods’(“theos”)?” Jesus did not quote Psa 82:6, using “theos” as if it were referring to false gods. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus, because they claimed, “You, being a man, make Yourself out to be god (“theos,” John 10:33). Jesus defends himself by quoting Psa 82:6, “you are gods.” If Jesus thought this was referring to false gods, he would have never quoted it to show that he was a false god. This verse actually prophetically applies to Christ’s Bride, earths future judges, priests and kings (Rev 1:6; 20:6; 1 Cor 6:2)

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Hello Peter,

                      The Lord Jesus is properly referred to as “my God” in John 20:28. Others can be referred to as “god”, but not “my God”. When others have been referred to as “my G/god” it is always in reference to idolatry (Isaiah 44:17; Daniel 4:8).

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – This is simply a rule Trinitarians make up. The fact is that “theos” does not apply exclusively to Yahweh and Jesus.

                      In John 10:34, Jesus quoting from Psa 82:6 said, “Is it not written in your law, `I said, You are gods’(“theos”)?” Jesus did not quote Psa 82:6, using “theos” as if it were referring to false gods. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus, because they claimed, “You, being a man, make Yourself out to be god (“theos,” John 10:33). Jesus defends himself by quoting Psa 82:6, “you are gods.” If Jesus thought this was referring to false gods, he would have never quoted it to show that he was a false god. This verse actually prophetically applies to Christ’s Bride, earths future judges, priests and kings (Rev 1:6; 20:6; 1 Cor 6:2)

                    • Marc Taylor

                      My explanation concerning the use of “my God” can not be refuted. It shows that it properly for the only true God. When it is used at any other at any time in any other place it is always in relation to idols.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      I already twice showed how Jesus quoted psalms prophetically referring to his bride as gods (theos). That Thomas called Jesus “My Theos” does not prove Jesus is Yahweh any more than when a servant calls their human master Lord that that would make their human master Yahweh.

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Your example does not exist in the Bible where someone appropriately calls someone else “my G/god” for very good reason.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Marc – Again, Theos is not exclusive to Yahweh. If you insist on a conveniently devised rule that “my Theos” proves Jesus is Yahweh then I will leave you satisfied and drop the matter. Tell me this though, do you believe Yahweh to be the name of the ONE God composed of three persons? If so would you equally name the Son and Holy Spirit Yahweh, just as you would the Father?

                    • Marc Taylor

                      Yes, the Trinity is a biblically correct teaching.

                  • Chris Johns

                    He doesnt get it. He says God doesnt have a God yet when jesus said “I am ascending to my God” throws his whole arguement out of the water. Hmmmmmm

                    • Marc Taylor

                      It’s you that don’t get it. Thomas referred to the Lord Jesus as “my God” and Thomas was a monotheist.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Marc. If you that doesnt get it. Let me get someone else to explain it you you since John 20:28 completely contradicts 1 Tim 2:5.

                      Thomas literally said to Jesus, “theLord of me and the God of me.” Now if Thomas had said, “the Lord and God of me,” the Trinitarian claim would carry much more weight. The latter statement would be the kind of language you would normally use in Greek to refer to one person as both your Lord and your God. But this is not the language Thomas used. He used a language convention which Greek speakers would use when they wanted to refer to TWO persons, “the Lord of me and the God of me.”

                      Verse 17 is also highly significant here. Jesus says he will ascend to “the Father of you and Father of me and God of you and God of me.” This is the kind of language a Greek speaker would use if he wanted to refer to just one person. He did not say he will ascend to, “the Father of you and the Father of me and theGod of you and the God of me.” This fact tells us that John was definitively selective about his language structures and would use the verse 17 language structure when he wanted to refer to one person. John did not use this “one person” language structure when he wrote John 20:28. He does not record Thomas as saying, “the Lord and God of me.” Rather, he used the language structure used by Greek speakers to refer to two persons, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” Additionally, it is also significant that Thomas did not say, “the Lord and the God of me.” Rather, he said, “the Lord of me and the God of of me.”

                      Compare the following two verses. If the first verse below refers to two persons, what about the second?

                      This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 Jn 2:22

                      Thomas answered and said to him, “the Lord of me and theGod of me.” Jn 20:28

                      However, this language structure is occasionally used in Scripture when referring to one person. For example, it is sometimes used to draw a distinction between two different roles that one person might serve (see John 13:13-14). So even though this is the language construction used by Greek speakers to refer to more two persons, this fact alone does not make it certain. Therefore, we must ask ourselves if there is additional information in our Bible which demonstrates Thomas was referring to two persons. And the answer to that question is, “Yes, there is additional information in the Scriptures which demonstrates that Thomas was referring to two persons.”

  • Ex Jw

    Is it Biblical to pray to Jesus?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Ex JW – We can pray to the Father through the Son who is our Advocate. We should not pray directly to Jesus.

      John 6:44 (NASV) “”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…”

      John 14:6 (NASV) “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

      James 1:17 (NASV) “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”

      1 John 2:1 “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”

      Online Bible Greek Lexicon on Advocate:

      3875 παράκλητος parakletos par-ak’-lay-tos

      a root word; n m; TDNT-5:800,782; {See TDNT 593 }

      AV-comforter 4, advocate 1; 5

      1) summoned, called to one’s side, esp. called to one’s aid
      1a) one who pleads another’s cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
      1b) one who pleads another’s cause with one, an intercessor
      1b1) of Christ in his exaltation at God’s right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
      1c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
      1c1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

      James 1:17 (NASV) “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”

      Luke 11:9 (NASV) “And He said to them, “When you pray, say: ‘Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.”

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