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IS THE GOVERNING BODY THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?

Find more discussion about the Governing Body by clicking here:

Recently, the Governing Body has modified the definition of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to exclusively apply to themselves and to not include the thousands of other anointed.

In the past, Jehovah’s Witnesses have believed that The Faithful and Discreet Slave is the collective body of “anointed” Christians alive on earth and that they exercise teaching authority in all matters pertaining to doctrine and articles of faith.  This belief is based on an interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47.

Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus uses this group exclusively “to publish information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies and to give timely direction on the application of Bible principles in daily life as the only means of communicating God’s messages to people.  Hence, it is referred to as God’s “prophet and “channel”.

Appointments to positions of responsibility and decisions on doctrines, activities and oversight of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide are made by the members of the Governing Body, who are said to serve as representatives of the “slave class”.  However no global network of anointed Witnesses exists to reveal new spiritual truths, and the remainder of the “slave class” are not consulted when making decisions.

Recently, some members of the anointed class wrote the Governing Body disagreeing with the way they were treating God’s household and questioning some of the teachings.  The Governing Body has permanently resolved this problem of dissent by cutting the other anointed out of the Faithful and Discreet Slave class, thereby completely consolidating their power and eliminating all opposition.

Do you believe the Faithful and Discreet Slave class of Matt 24:45-47 is:

* The Governing Body
* All “Anointed” JWs
* All “Anointed” Christians, even if not JWs
* C.T. Russell
* Not sure of the answer
* Other (Explain by posting a comment)

How would you apply the verses in Matt 24:45-47?

We would love to hear your thoughts.

————————————————————

UPDATE

“Reports are emerging of an announcement at the 128th Annual Meeting of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses now considers itself to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class of Matthew 24:45 in its entirety.”

“Suspicions were raised in the minds of many thinking Witnesses after reading articles such as the Questions From Readers of the August 15th 2011 Watchtower, where it was admitted that the Governing Body has no actual communication with memorial partakers (the “anointed”) and even feels that some of these ones may be mentally imbalanced. (see w11 8/15 p. 22)”

Find the source of this information here:

I am not totally satisfied that this new change is well documented, so if anyone has additional concrete information or support, please share it with us.

 

226 comments to IS THE GOVERNING BODY THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?

  • James

    Scotty and Bret

    Question for both. Rev. 19 shows a bleak outcome for the small and the great. Rev. 16 shows the beast and false prophet going good bye forever. Then tell me, Chapter 20 starts with the Devil put in a big hole where he cannot touch any who live on earth. Verse 4 shows the 144,000 in heaven ready to serve as kings and priests.

    Was there not given a warning to the saints in chapter two that if they did not conquer , they would receive the second death?

    And does not Rev. 11:18 show a happy outcome for the small and great?

    Thanks

    James

    • Bret (B.S.)

      James;
      Not sure about your question? Are you looking for chronological order? There isnt alway an easy time line to follow and chronological order is not necesarily in order by chapters.

    • Bret (B.S.)

      James;

      I do not see in Rev 2:11 a warning that while overcoming, the saints are in jeopardy of the second death…

      Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

      The scripture simple states that the overcomers shall not be hurt of the second death, because they will be resurrected, and sitting as Judges and king, priests during the millenium when the second death is a possibility for those during the millenial age..

  • Rick Vanderhoven

    I don’t see any scriptural evidence that would point to Bible Student leaders in Brooklyn being appointed to act as Christ’s Faithful Slave in 1919. It’s all speculation, (Watchtower mythology) as is every doctrine that is unique to the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Faithful Slave doctrine has changed at least 4 times since the society was incorporated.

    • Bret (B.S)

      Rick;
      Most of us here would agree with you.. And I think your analogy of the Watchtowers mythology is pretty accurate. The Witnesses are drawn the the organization because of some truths that they maintain such as the purpose of the earth, Gods Kindom a real rulership to bring about Gods plan, the dead are conscious of nothing and so on… But their doctrines and anti-types are all very egocentric and are geared towards control and the binding of others conscience.
      Witnesse who are studying early on are made to believe these bible truths mentioned earlier are only found among the JW organization and this is false, but often to late once someone has joined and found themselves tangled in their web of lies..

      • Rick Vanderhoven

        Thanks for your response Bret. We are in agreement and the recruitment process you describe is absolutely accurate. I think it is important for anyone being recruited by Witnesses to understand the difference between two distinct interpretive methodologies – exegesis and eisegesis.
        “The term exegesis literally means “to lead out of” emphasizing the fact that the interpreter comes to conclusions derived from the text. In contrast, eisegesis (pronounced “ī-sə-ˈjē-səs”) means “to lead into” pointing to the fact that the interpreter without warrant injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he/she wishes.”

        I’ve found that every unique doctrine of the WTS is determined by reading ideas into biblical texts. Clear examples of eisegesis are found throughout Watchtower literature. For example, on page 172 of “Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand” we discover amazing insider information concerning the timing of the seven trumpet blasts outlined in Revelation chapters 8 – 11.

        “When the sounding of the seven trumpets got under way in 1922, the Bible Student convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, (Rev.8:7) featured a talk by the president of the Watchtower Society, J. F Rutherford, based on the scripture, ”The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand. p. 172

        On the very next page of the same commentary, we get the highlights of when and where all seven trumpets of Revelation began sounding.

        “1. 1922 Cedar Point, Ohio: A challenge to Christendom’s leaders in religion, politics, and big business to justify their failure to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness. Messiah’s Kingdom is the panacea.

        2. 1923 Los Angeles, California: The public talk, “All Nations Now Marching to Armageddon, but Millions Now Living Will Never Die,” called on peace-loving “sheep” to abandon the death-dealing sea of humanity.

        3. 1924 Columbus, Ohio: Ecclesiastics indicted for self-exaltation and refusal to preach Messiah’s Kingdom. True Christians must preach God’s vengeance and comfort mourning humanity.

        4. 1925 Indianapolis, Indiana: A message of hope contrasting the spiritual darkness in Christendom with the bright Kingdom promise of peace, prosperity, health, life, liberty, and eternal happiness.

        5. 1926 London, England: A locust-like plaguing of Christendom and its clergy, exposing their rejection of God’s Kingdom, and hailing the birth of that heavenly government.

        6. 1927 Toronto, Canada: An invitation, carried as by armies of cavalry, calling on people to forsake `organized Christianity’ and give heart allegiance to Jehovah God and to his King and Kingdom.

        7. 1928 Detroit, Michigan: A declaration against Satan and for Jehovah, making plain that God’s anointed King, enthroned in 1914, will destroy Satan’s evil organization and emancipate mankind.”

        As are all unique doctrines of the WTS, the seven trumpets interpretation, is clearly determined by reading extra-biblical ideas, names, dates, places into the text. This is nothing less than interpretive abuse.

        • Bret (B.S.)

          Rick;

          Nice example..

          Did you know that now the Revelation grand climax book is no longer in print? It seems as though Watchtower after changing some dates recently are trying to distance themsleves from many of their past and even recent egocentric teachings. So no longer making these publications available they can distance themselves from statements that have been shown to be untrue.
          The internet is exposing their hundreds of false prophecies over the last 100 years and so they are trying to minimize damage by making access to such things difficult. Not to mention they are also going broke between pedophile lawsuites, and bad money management in the past not to mention declining donations. Their only growth is in 3rd world countries where internet is limited and people are uneducated which also poses the problem of lack of donations.
          The Organization reached its zenith like any other corporation and so they are now facing downsizing and there is next to no building taking place except for their headquaters.
          This Organization will not even look the same in 10 or 20 years and their teaching will continue to change with the turnover of the their false christs/GB.

  • Shannon

    Whether the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a governing body that is to the one doing research to find out as for me I forgive those who have hurt me over the years God will judge between me and them not that I condone the hurt but I cannot speak good or bad concerning anything my only hope the God will have mercy on me and I will continue to grow spiritually may we all love is Jesus dead and try to do our best not to criticize others ssh

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hi Shannon so nice to hear from you. I understand what you are saying. Myself I don’t really have too much to forgive, I find. Since I have left I have heard stories that brings you to tears. I have not been as beat up by the organization’s teachings etc, because if I didn’t understand it or believe it I just ignored them. The pedophile cases opened my eyes and the continual outright lying of the organization plus blaming the victims. I knew I had to separate from such an organization because my going was helping to validate and keep them in business. I wish them no harm. I don’t even follow what they write. I consider them like all other religions or corporations in this case. People have the right to support them and believe what they say.
      I also have the right to leave and not be punished in any way by family or local witnesses. My family have let me go in peace and I don’t try to harm their faith in the organization they choose.
      So nice hearing from you, you have a nice spirit about you. Take Care

      • Shannon

        God is love,my purpose as a bible student is to love all condoning what others do is different from love I hope someday soon to completely concencrate with Jehovah but that step I a big commitment I want to be honest I’m just gonna have to work harder than ever I know he has called me to live with him Satan trying to come between us soon I will turn my complete life to Jehovah to avoid unforgivable sin I must be ready to live up to his love may we all have love

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          You are doing the best you can Shannon Jehovah knows your circumstances. You are a good man. Try to come on Wednesday if you can and you can have some association.

  • Mike

    Dear Admin,

    going back to the 128th annual meeting, discussion was made about the ‘domestics.’ Not being part of the Society, I’m do not totally understand everything of it’s structure. But it appears that the anointed have in the past at least, been considered the ‘domestics’ who have the heavenly hope. However, as of the 128th meeting, that changed to include all witnesses. Is that correct?

    thanks,

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hello Mike, this is a link to articles concerning the Jehovah witnesses term “Anointed”. Perhaps these articles will help you. http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/the-anointed
      Witness theology changes every year back And forth so it is difficult to know exactly what you are referring to in this 128 annual corporate meeting. Do you have the transcript? They are always available. Do you have the links to their previous teachings on domestics?
      I ask this so the administrators can familiarize themselves with what they have taught in the past.
      Truth doesn’t change back and forth. The theology according to Raymond Franz books is all messed up. In other words we would have to comment and unravel on a false and jumbled foundation. Their great mystery of the so called “Anointed doctrine” is there to keep witnesses under their spell.
      The Bride of Christ has no such authority over you on earth now. They equate the “Anointed” as a class of faithful and discreet slave. These are two separate jw doctrines all mixed up together.
      Hopefully with Bible in hand you can get an understanding from the link above. Take Care Mike and thanks for commenting.

      • Mike

        Jacqueline thank you for your reply. I have pasted what is found on the JW website concerning the domestics. It was my understanding that only the anointed class were considered domestics before this meeting. Now it appears all JW’s are domestics, which then brings up another question. IF it is true that all Witnesses are domestics, then does it not mean that all Witnesses now have the heavenly hope?

        Who Are the “Domestics”?
        Jesus said that “his domestics” would receive “food at the proper time.” All genuine followers of Jesus are fed by “the faithful and discreet slave.” Therefore, all of Christ’s disciples—both individual anointed Christians and members of the “other sheep”—are “his domestics.”—John 10:16.

        After the speaker explained this aspect of Jesus’ prophecy, the audience erupted in sustained applause. Several in attendance later expressed their profound gratitude that Jesus considers them among “his domestics.”

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Okay now I understand that you aren’t asking us to explain this thinking just stating what they are saying. Lol
          Christ during this Christian age is offering ALL footstep follows to run the race for the upward call.
          Phillippians 3:14: ” I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus” NIV
          Witnesses are running to survive armageddon and live on earth and that is okay if they are not called.
          But you can’t use the Bible scriptures that are talking to the called out Christians. Why don’t they just tell them the truth, that they can run for heaven. Some have said no they desire to live on earth and that IS the salvation for man, so that is okay. This is something special Jesus offered for the Christian era and once all have been sealed it will end.
          I agree witn Raymond Franz they need to throw out Rutherford, Knorr and Fred Franz teachings, say they are sorry and start over.
          Because these people won’t read or listen to anyone else on scripture they will, like cult followers clap and make these expressions of joy when Simon says turn around.
          I find it painful to speak to a witness that is not awakening. So I don’t attempt to call out the uncalled. I believe God has let these systems exist for a purpose, some can’t function without this control. I see this on Facebook pages, some are going off the deep end. Atheism and the Occult. Some use their freedom now to delve in some of the deep wickedness of this world, so I am careful to answer only if asked. The pages are disturbing with the suicide attempts. I think they can save face by starting their theology over, because they have some truths. But it must be what God wills.

          PS: My understanding of the domestics is the other workers of the household of faith when the last days began and a servant is pulled out to direct them with the truth. It can’t be the collective body or the governing body because they need leading. I don’t make the Bible harder by overthinking this scripture of the domestics. Everyone understands how a household with servants operates. One Main servant directs them in their duties.

          • Mike

            Jacqueline,

            I appreciate your time and effort in trying to help me out, but I don’t think you are understanding what I’m asking for.

            It is my understanding that the ‘domestics’ referred only to the anointed class, and only the anointed class had the heavenly hope. But as of the 128th annual meeting, and the quote I showed you from that meeting, that says ALL Witnesses are now part of the ‘domestic’ class – does not that imply that ALL Witnesses now have the heavenly hope? That is what I heard in 2012, yet Witnesses today have not heard that, they still think they will inherit the earth.

            thanks again.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Mike, I think I understand perfectly what you are asking. Whether the governingbody has said in the past that the domestics were only anointed but now you ask, is the 128th annual meeting saying that all witnesses are domestics. I have lived thru many changes on this subject. One being that the domestics help the faithful slave distribute the understanding of the word and they themselves are anointed. Which caused a problem because anointed ones said “but you don’t consult us or know who we are”.
              So it would seem logical they are now saying at my last recollection that only those that have lived in New York city Bethel are the faithful slave, the feeders of the household of faith. Now to cut out those guys who say they should help because they are anointed,THEY CAN NOW SAY THE DOMESTICS ARE ALL JEHOVAH WITNESSES!
              Jesus said “Over his household” (Matt 24:45) Which is to me saying, His faithful people in general, but not nominal Christian professors in general. The household of Faith are all running for the upward call according to scripture. There is no other call being put out in this gospel age.

              Now you are asking me to say yes or no that the society is saying all witnesses are of the domestics and therefore are anointed.
              This is a question that I think you should ask, call them (they will talk to you, I have done it dozens of times). Mention what was said then let them explain whether they are saying that.
              If they are then maybe they are changing their doctrine a little at a time to straighten out what the call is now.
              What do you glean they are saying? If you ask the average witness they will tell you NO, I don’t wish to strive to live in heaven but on earth.
              I do understand what you are asking, but you should ask the society what they MEAN by their statements and please tape the conversation or come back and let us know.
              I can only tell you why they are taking the domestics away from being of the “so called anointed class”. To keep the anointed from saying they also have the right to teach and make policy.
              They are not as deep as you think. They also know the average witness does not comprehend what they say because they only read and look up answers in their books and use their bible.
              Beware of a religion that have a need for their own bible. Take Care hope you call them to get the clarification. Me I don’t think they are saying all witnesses are domestics that also go to heaven

              PS: For others reading this, the other sheep was mentioned in that quote from the 128th annual meeting, please go here to understand this 3rd party mentioned.

              http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/other-sheep/

            • Bret (Bible Student)

              Mike;
              I would like to add a little input. Jesus of course was referring to his followers who received the invitation to be his footstep followers and become so by being baptized into christ Jesus. There is no other baptism other than being baptized into Christ and a part of his body. The inheritance of the earth is for the “Nations” these nations which are referred to by the prophets are simply unbelievers who will be judged during christ millennial reign. So the domestics are definitely those with a heavenly hope.

              • Scotty

                Bret,

                This is a bit is necro-posting and it may be that my question/point is discussed later but what do you do with the statement that the great crowd out of all the nations have washed their robes and made them clean in the blood of the Lamb? You are presenting you view of who the nations are but your interpretation seems to be the least likely. It would seem that either this group is an earthly group who survive the great tribulation or they are a secondary (to the 144,000) heavenly group…which seemingly survive the great tribulation. The remnant/survivors of the bride class at the coming of Jesus will be caught away/gathered to Christ when he comes with great power and glory. This is not mentioned in connection with the “great crowd.”

                • Bret (B.S.)

                  Scotty,

                  You pose a very good question. I might start by saying I probably overstated by saying those baptized into Christ Jesus become a part of his body. The truism is that only after running the race and at Jehovah’s choosing do they finaly get selected to be of that bride class (Christ body) or 144,000. I believe that all true Christians are of the Isreal of God a spiritual group who have been invited baptized and consecrated and putting on that new personality. Remember Paul said he did not consider himself “laid hold of it”

                  American Standard Version
                  Php 3:13 Brethren, I could not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,

                  Its only after running the course and to Gods choosing that one is of that bride class. I will admit that I have a very different view of the great crowd…
                  But think of these questions…
                  John sees that great crowd on the otherside of the great tribulation and only answers the question of where they come from… John did not say that before passing through the great tribulation they had washed their robes, or that they were standing before the throne, or that they had palm branches in their hand… No John never says these things because that is read into the scripture…
                  In my view the nations wash their robes, wave palm branches and are standing before the throne after coming out of the great tribulation. And I have some ideas behind this view that I feel there are many scriptures to support..

                  As regards spiritual Isreal or the Isreal of God, the 144,000 are chosen from among them. According to revelation 7 12,000 were selected from each tribe and therefore selected out from Spiritual Isreal (Consecrated, or dedicated Christians baptized into Christ), therefore the 144,000 are chosen from out of the Isreal of God.
                  The book of revelation as well as many other scriptures do not give all details but are making specific statements and may not answer all the questions we have.
                  An Example is that the scriptures clearly teach “Fleshly Isreal” will be saved Romans 11:25-32 Jehovah will conclude the New Covenant with the jews/fleshly isreal and then extend it to all mankind. Zechariah 12 also makes this clear… But no where within the book of revelation does it mention the Fleshly jews surviving Armegeddon and God concluding the new covenant.
                  Revelation give a bigger picture and does not cover every detail of events that take place. It will only be after that when all things are clear. But we can put together a pretty good picture…
                  If you are a JW I have some very interesting point with regards to the Great Crowd and your view as to the who and when..

                  • Bret (B.S.)

                    Scotty;

                    I am not dogmatic at all of any of these views of the Great Crowd. The General consensus is that they are a heavenly group who are not selected to be of the bride class but recieve the reward of the upward call. I believe this reward to be true of all those anointed Christians who have remained faithful unto death, but the bride selection is up to Jehovah.
                    I learned this though after my experience as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and that is “Better to have a question that cannot be answered, then an answer that cannot be questioned”… And that is exactly how that Organization is run, question everything in this world except them!!!

                    • Scotty

                      Bret,

                      I understand your comment about the difficulty of asking deep questions to less than fully orbed brothers. I have found satisfaction in writing to HQ and in discussing my questions with brothers who are Bible scholars.

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Bret,

                      Rev. 22:14 ¶ Μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν.

                      Rev 22:14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates.

                      The use of the present active participial noun οἱ πλύνοντες (those who wash) gives us no indication of time only all we can draw from it is that aspect is imperfective. That is to say that we see neither the beginning nor the end of the action. However the main verb ἔσται (will be) in the following hina (ἵνα) clause, which is a result clause, is future tense. The only thing we can pull out from this is that the time of eating from the tree of life is that it follows the washing of the robes. It is not possible to discern when the washing takes place only that it takes place and the result is authority to eat from the tree of life.

                      I didn’t make any claim regarding the festival of booths. So I’ll leave you to make a case for that assertion.

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Dear Bret,

                      I’ll respond to point 1 of your post at 12:35:

                      You may find it of note that the group that stands before the throne in Rev 20:11-13 are the resurrected dead and not the same as the great crowd who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. There is no link suggesting that the two events are the same one.

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Dear Bret,

                      It would seem the great tribulation has fully refined their faith. It has tested them, and their perseverance through the trial has proven their faith as genuine. This is especially clear from Rev. 6:9–11, where “those who were slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony that they maintained” were given a “white robe” (στολὴ λευκή). Presumably after the great tribulation there would no longer be tests of faith since all opposers will have been eliminated at the revelation of Jesus. And said revelation would remove all doubt about God’s existence and reasons for doubt which tests one’s faith and refines/purifies/cleanses.

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;

                      Just a reminder, again I see some very interesting scriptures that raise many questions with regards to the Great Crowd.. But there is also much that is untold in the book of Revelation. Watchtower reads a lot into it such as teaching that this great crowd are the only survivors and they are a group of un-begotton Christians…
                      How can some christians have washed their robes and be in a aproved standing before God yet still face Judgment and possible second death??? Do the face double judgment for Adams sin???? That is judgment at the end of this age and judgment in the next??? Makes no sense and cannot be deffended by scripture. Can only be defended by Watchtower policy “DONT ASK OR QUESTION GODS CHANNEL”.
                      Do forget the millenial reign of Christ or the 1,000 years is a time for testing and there will be a need to demonstrate faith during that period. Russell referred to it as a probationary period and that really is a good description.
                      Acts 3:20-25
                      20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. 22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets, in fact, from Samuel on and those in succession, just as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 YOU are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God covenanted with YOUR forefathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.

                  • Scotty

                    Dear Bret,

                    I am indeed one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am 47 baptized at 15 years old and third generation raised in the Truth with my four oldest daughters all baptized around the age of 12 and immediately embarking on the path of pioneering. I now have a son from my second marriage (I was divorced/DF’d and married a non Witness) that I hope to raise as a Jehovah’s Witness. Anyway, that gives a bit of my background.

                    I agree that regarding the great crowd it doesn’t explicitly state that they washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb before the great tribulation but neither does it explicitly state they didn’t. However, this vision in Rev. 7 comes after the knee shaking question at the end of chapter 6 as to who can stand since the day of Jehovah had come. John’ then see the sealing of the 144,000 before the winds of the destruction/tribulation are released. The scene of the great crowd is reminiscent of the welcoming of a conquering king as Jesus was also welcomed…so it would seem that the king’s arrival was anticipated….so in light of the aforementioned it would reasonable to conclude that the washing of the robes preceded the great tribulation.

                    As to Paul’s comments in Roman’s and the connection to Zechariah I have personally noted the possibility that natural Israel may be referred to and only hinted at in the NT.

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;

                      3 points about the Great crowd that stands out to me…
                      1) they are standing before the throne. Watchtower says this is an approved condition but this term is used with regards to judgment day in Rev 20. Standing before the throne then would be during the millenial reign of Christ. Something that has never made sense with the JW theology and for me especially when I was is that, if the great crowd washed their robes and made them white, if they were standing in an approved state and were symbolically celebrating the festival of booths, why would they still face judgment and possible second death during the millenium. This is a question Watchtower has never addressed….
                      2) I believe the 3 festivals of ingathering are the anti-type of the 3 ingatherings of mandkind. 1. Christ. 2. Christians or spiritual Isreal and 3. The rest of mankind Rom 8: 19-22 (The creation)
                      The 3rd and final ingathering represented by the festival of booths or tabernacles. This was celebrated as Isreals release from bondage and I feel this is Representing mankinds release from bondage to sin and death… This takes place during the 1,000 yrs or millenium..
                      Rev 7:9 ….and there were palm branches in their hands. Compare to Zech 14:16 And it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem, they must also go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the festival of the booths.

                      Notice these are survivors of Armegeddon. Watchtowers excuse for these is that they cannot be survivors but those who died before Armegeddon and were resurrected.. They use 2 Thes 1:6-10 a scripture completely taken out of context that is actualy referring to “That Day” the millenium…

                      There are a number of scripture that refer to the nations or gentiles/unbelievers surving Armegeddon but Watchtower always changes the sequence and applies wrongly never being questioned… Example
                      Zeph 3:9 For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’
                      This scripture is in regards to jehovah pouring out his anger on the nations/gentile unbelievers and then giving them a change to a pure language…
                      Watchtower changes sequence.. Never made sense to me but “Dont question the GB”

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty

                      Notice when the robes are made white..

                      Rev 22:14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates

                      This is during the millenium not before…
                      Can you provide a scripture that indicates anyone would symbolicaly celebrate festival of booths before tribulation/armegeddon, or be standing before the throne, or wash their robes prior too?

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;

                      My background is similar..
                      I was not raised a witness but it was introduced to me at 15 by my oldest brother and I was baptized at 20 yrs old and within 2 years was appointed servant and after 6 years an Elder… Gave assembly and district parts also served as pioneer along with my oldest son who has been in fulltime service for 7 yrs and 5 at Bethel until released to go home last week due to cuts/montary issues… My daughter also pioneered and my wife and I together studied with 13 who were baptized.. It was always doctrinal for me as I have always been a student of the Bible.
                      It was the Ransom for all that caused me to leave the Watchtower Organization along with their sectarian doctrine and fear doctrines Second death/lake of fire no different than the nominal churches hellfire doctrine..
                      When I realized how contradictive the JW ransom was it was all that was needed..
                      Example;
                      Billions who have died in past get resurrection and Ransom benefits with no works or faith just a free gift.. But billions now who know nothing of Christ i.e. China India ect need to have faith in ransom..
                      The facts are that all are condemned to death in Adam and no new condemnation comes upon anyone even at Armegeddon… That death will be their death in Adam but a resurrection in christ Acts 15 and Rom 5.

                      Armegeddon is not Gods war on wicked but the final battle to replace the ecclesiastical and governmental authorities of this world and bring in his rulership to set the creation free from sin and death… Jehovah is so much more of a loving merciful God than Watchtower presents and his whole purpose and plan is for mankind who has been subjected to this..

                  • Scotty (JW)

                    Bret,

                    In my own fallible thinking I like the idea that all baptized JW’s are spiritual Israelites. Those with an earthly hope are also children of Abraham and Sarah because of their faith. Those of the Levite class would be elevated to God’s presence so as to lift up the 12 tribes….over whom they will also rule according to the manner of Melchizidek. We have after all brought the other sheep into the class of the “domestics” and are also, able to call Jehovah father!

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;

                      That is not what the writing department teaches. They list only the “anointed as the Isreal of God”. The “other sheep” or “great crowd” are not spirit begotton Christians and this cannot even be reconciled with Romans 8:9 9 “However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him.”
                      Scotty there is one baptism Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, “one baptism”

                      Rom 6:3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life.

                      There is no being baptized into an organization and becoming a spiritual Isrealite apart from being spirit begotton a new creation.

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Bret,

                      The Bible seems to lay out two destinies, one earthly the other heavenly. – Matthew 5:5; Matt 6:9,10; Dan 12:13; Isaiah 65; 2 Peter 3:13; Rev 21
                      That being true then the distinction made that those bought from the earth as first fruits will be born from above to enter into the kingdom of the heavens would not apply to those of an earthly destination. However, in my own fallible/mixed up thinking it seems reasonable to me that all who exercise faith in Jesus are children of Abraham and Sarah…no matter their destination. I see in Isaiah 51:1,2 support for this possibility where it connects those seeking righteousness as children of Abraham and Sarah. Since the “other sheep” are seeking righteousness they too would be children of Abraham and Sarah and thus part of spiritual Israel.

                      Listen to me, you who are pursuing righteousness,You who are seeking Jehovah. Look to the rock from which you were hewnAnd to the quarry from which you were dug. 2 Look to Abraham your fatherAnd to Sarah who gave birth to you. For he was only one when I called him,And I blessed him and made him many. 3 For Jehovah will comfort

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Bret,

                      Here are some comments from my favorite scholar of Revelation, GK Beale which you may find enlightening:

                      Therefore, the image of saints with “cleansed, white robes” in Rev. 7:9, 14 and elsewhere in the book connotes a purity that has been demonstrated by persevering faith in Christ’s redemptive death (= “blood”), that faith tested by a purifying fire. 3:18 emphasizes the aspect of purification by nearly equating the exhortations to “buy . . . gold refined by fire in order that you should become rich” and to “buy white garments in order that you should clothe yourself.” The reference in ch. 7 is a fulfillment of the Daniel 11–12 preview of the latter-day tribulation, where the saints are “made white” through the “refining,” “purging,” and “cleansing” fire of persecution, so that they come out as undefiled and blameless (cf. 14:4–5). This is yet another way in which the saved multitude from the nations are identified as authentic Israel. For it is they who fulfill the Daniel prophecy concerning the tribulation that the remnant of faithful Israel was to endure. Consequently, the ideas of the saints “cleansing” or “washing” themselves and of them “being made white” are both found in Daniel’s expectation of the final distress, which is thus the most plausible background for these ideas’ presence in Rev. 7:14 (καθαρίζω [“cleanse”] and πλύνω [“wash”] are sometimes virtually synonymous in the LXX — e.g., Lev. 13:58–59; 14:1–11; the white robes are also called “clean” [καθαρός] in Rev. 15:6; 19:8, 14). This confirms further the link seen above with the same context of Daniel. And this OT background is also implicit in Rev. 3:4b–5a, where those receiving “white robes” have their names written in “the book of life,” a partial allusion to the book of life in Dan. 12:1–2. Bauckham has confirmed the presence of the Daniel 11–12 background in Rev. 7:14, highlighting even the parallel of the reflexive nuance of the verbs in Dan. 12:10 and the Revelation text.

                      In the light of this analysis, the metaphor of washing white robes in blood primarily connotes the objective reality that the saints have been cleansed from their sin by their persevering faith in Christ’s death for them, that faith having been refined by trials. The reference to the saints making themselves “white in the blood of the Lamb” may be intentionally ambiguous and may also suggest that their endurance through suffering is being modeled on Christ’s endurance through suffering. Nevertheless, since “the blood of the Lamb” refers to Christ’s own blood and not that of saints, the focus is on the cleansing effects of his death on their behalf. Indeed, references to Christ’s blood elsewhere always refer to his suffering (1:5; 5:9; 12:11). When John wants to refer to the saints’ suffering, he uses phrases like “the blood of saints” (17:6; likewise 6:10; 18:24; 19:2). Therefore, the picture does not primarily connote the idea of a select group of martyrs, but encompasses the entire company of the redeemed. This is confirmed by 22:14, where “those who wash their robes” in order to enter the new Jerusalem are contrasted with all unbelievers, who are not able to enter (v 15; note the same kind of contrast in 21:7–8). The image of washing robes in blood could also be derived from Gen. 49:11, where the prophesied ruler from the tribe of Judah is said to “wash his robe in wine and his garment in the blood of the grape” when he defeats his enemies in the last days (cf. 49:1, 7). If there is such an allusion, the saints would be seen in Rev. 7:14 as corporately participating in the ironic victory that the Messiah has inaugurated at the cross (see on 5:5–6, which alludes to Gen. 49:9; cf. also 6:9–10). Perhaps both Genesis 49 and Daniel 11–12 stand behind Rev. 7:14. This is supported by 19:13, where Jesus is depicted as “clothed with a robe dipped in blood,” behind which the picture in Targ. Pal. Gen. 49:11 may stand: “his garments, dipped in blood, are like the outpressed juice of grapes” (likewise Targ. Neofiti; see further on 19:13). In place of ἔπλυναν (“they washed”) part of the ms. tradition has επλατυναν (“they enlarged” or “made broad” their robes). This is perhaps due to a scribe’s unintentional misreading or faulty hearing of the text. The change did not result from a scribe’s inability to accept the paradoxical metaphor of washing in blood, since the following verb “made white” poses the same paradox but remains unchanged throughout the ms. traditions.

                  • Scotty (JW)

                    Bret,

                    We often take weeping and grieving in a negative sense. But notice that in Zechariah it comes on the heels of the spirit of favor being poured out upon Israel. So it may be that it should also be viewed in a positive sense in Rev 1:7 & Matt 24:30. Though it may be of interest to note that in Rev 1:7 two groups are mentioned “those that pierced him” and “all the tribes of the earth.” It may be that the “tribes of the earth” may be judged adversely while those that “pierced him” (natural Israel) may not be but have a special reckoning with him. So there may be a hint of natural Israel being shown favor in Revelation contrary to your previous statement.

                    Zechariah 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.

                    Rev 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

                    Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;

                      It is nice to see from your research that you think outside the lines of the Organization although you had better keep most of that to yourself before you face a committe for Apostacy and independant thinking. But some very nice points made by the research and scholar GK Beale… Suprised to see you mention a presbyterian Minister because he thinking on this matter is the “Saints” or New Creation of spirit begotten Christians..

                    • Scotty (JW)

                      Bret,

                      Somehow I missed your comment on GK Beale. So sorry! First, I credit Beale with restoring my faith in our interpretation of the “gentile times.” Second, I want to reiterate that questions asked from a desire for answers truly is acceptable. I’m not saying that one should ask deep Biblical questions of those of little faith…in fact it is best to be discreet in whom one speaks with in the organization about deep questions. But! But!! I tell you truly that the FDS does not require 100 percent intellectual assent. However, it would not be healthy to try to create dissent by one’s questions. As I said earlier, I have found satisfaction by writing to HQ and by searching out the scholars among us to dialog with. Bret. I’m glad we have met….maybe I can help you work out some issues with our organization…perhaps it may be too much to hope that you may return to the fold…but in anycase we can develop mutual respect for each other’s Biblical position!

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Scotty;
                      I would like you to consider Pastor Russell’s description of a False Messiah and understand that is my view of the so called “faithful and discreet slave”

                      Vol. 4 pgs 473-474 “Armageddon” describes the False Messiah’s

                      “The deceivers here described certainly are not the fanatics who from time to time have claimed to be Christ and have deceived but few possessed of any degree of common sense and judgment”….
                      “Various Protestant denominations, although they acknowledge no head except Christ, nevertheless practically make their Synods, Conferences and Councils into heads, from which they take their laws, usages, and confessions of faith, instead of the one only head of the one true Church”…..
                      “For a large period and to a greater or less extent these systems of men have so counterfeited the genuine Messiah (head and body) as to partially deceive many”…

                      Here Russell explains Matt 24:23-25 and its description, synods and councils fits the governing body.

                      They have become Jehovah’s witnesses messiah…

                      They have even replaced Jesus as your mediator..

                      Scotty…. Do you believe that Jesus is your mediator and mediator of all JW even all of mankinds?

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Mike I thought a little and wondered if you know we are not Jehovah’s witnesses but the Bible students?
              I believe out of the household of faith there would be a servant that would be helped with understanding of what the master is doing in the time of the end. This servant would tell (feed) the others of that same household, the domestics (who are like him except he was chosen to head the new, clear understanding). They all have the same hope of Heaven as a follower of Christ. Most of the world today don’t follow Christ, Muslims being just one example.
              The other sheep to my understanding is the Gentiles being allowed the privilege of heaven. They were not of the Jewish fold.

              So maybe you can understand why I can’t speak for what the governing body is saying because our beliefs on scripture understanding is different. I do not consider any changes they make to be valid for consideration.
              I prefer to just go to that scripture and see what the Bible actually says on the matter. I hope you understand why I personally don’t consider their teachings of any consequence. Take Care.

              • Mike

                Jacqueline,

                No, it was not me on the internet broadcast. I’m beginning to realize that you must not be of the Watch Tower Society, from the things you are saying. Yes, I understand that they do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible really teaches, If they did, then the Witnesses wouldn’t even exist. The same for the Catholics, Methodists, etc. As for the average Witness, that is the problem I’m running into, the ones I’ve talk with have never heard of this statement about the domestics and what it implies. It appears that Bret has a handle on what was said at the 128th meeting, because that’s what I got out of it.

                thanks for your help.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Mike, You are welcome. I was a witness over 60 years and have relatives in Bethel for over 45 years and beyond. We often get the memo before the announcements are made. They made a similar change in the late 1970’s to DF Raymond Franz. Then they changed the rule back 2 years later after they DF him. So knowing why they made the statement is essential to understand they aren’t making a change just discrediting the other anointed.
                  Could we hear your experience of how you found this site? Are you a witness still? Last night on sixscreens there was a JW by the name of Mike and an anonymous, both and the others are still witnesses so I thought you were this person. Take Care

                  • Mike

                    Jacqueline,

                    I am not a Witness and never have been. I am a preacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ. My Son-in-Law was brought up in the Witnesses, and I was able to help him reason his way out of that group, now he is a faithful Christian in the Lord’s church. I wrote a book, exposing the errors of the Watch Tower, and to make a long story short, I can’t find the same information about the 128th meeting as I did before the book was published, which means something changed (again). Like you have pointed out, they are constantly tweaking their beliefs, which makes it very hard to tie them down to what they truly believe. So I was googling the 128th meeting and your site came up with this discussion, so I thought I would ask if any knew what was going on.

                    Thanks for your time and help

                    • Jacqueline (Bible student)

                      Thanks for the information. We also help persons work their way out and provide spiritual help. You are doing a good work because many don’t understand why it is difficult for most to leave. I should have asked who you were in the beginning, please excuse that. My answers were directed to a witness but using the term 128th threw us off as witnesses would never refer to the annual meetings by the number.
                      I have been to a few of the annual meetings. The average witness will never be invited or know what was actually said there unless they have special access to the transcript. They are coveted TICKET ONLY events, attended by big shots.
                      My son was actually visiting the headquarters last week and could have gotten the transcript for us from a relative that gave them to me often in the past.
                      So now that I know you are not a witness, after researching with others within the religion (Saturday night actual JW elders, one named Mike, lol ), none of them have ever heard that the Governing body has changed the teachings. They do not teach that all JW are domestics at this time. They have never taught that rank and file goes to heaven.
                      This reference you made had a specific purpose and the 2013 study copies of the Watchtowers gives you the new and current teachings now. A few changes are due in 2016 however. The things I wrote in my former comments would only be understood by an informed witness, so sorry for the detailed explanations.
                      I would like to read your book, please. Where can I get a copy.
                      The Catholic Church also have programs to help Jehovah witnesses adjust to life outside of the organisation.Thank you.

                      Go here to hear the 2012 Annual meeting: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?type=odc179&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-001&p=2012+annual+meeting+of+Jehovahs+witnesses

            • Jacqueline (Bible student)

              Mike hello, can you give me a yes or no on whether you and I was on the same internet broadcast last night.
              I hope this is you and also anonymous. I am that Jacqueline if you are. This would be crazy if you are. I will wait for your yes or no. Thanks.

              • Mike

                Jacqueline,

                My book is available on Amazon – it’s entitled “Jehovah’s Witnesses” – So-Called

                thanks again for your time and help.

  • Nikster

    Funnily enough i was just wondering about something similar today!! I was looking at jwvictims.org earlier (feeling totally disgusted just as I felt when reading Franz’s Crisis of conscience incidentally). I have lots of things with the bible in general that I can’t reconcile as well as the WTS. One of these things that I cannot reason out is the following:

    When I was wee being brought up in the jw teaching there was a lovely humble old man called Charlie Russell in the congregation who was one of the anointed ones. Just knowing that he was of that group gave me a tremendous awe!! I remember being at his funeral and saying he is King Charlie now he’s in heaven waiting for the rest of the anointed finishing their life and ruling with Christ – Wow what a thought eh. So the problem I have with the organization is this. How is it that worldwide the jw are organised and given instruction on beliefs and teachings/practices from the Governing body who are not going to be co-rulers over the earth with Jesus and not the anointed ones?? I would reason that revelations etc would come from these ones with a heavenly calling, anointed personally with gods holy spirit and really “living and feeling the truth”, not a group of men who have an earthly callling – does not make sense to me somehow. Of course I have never asked the elders about this as I would b questioning the organization and probably wouldn’t get a satisfactory answer anyway – is there even an answer?? Also I have wondered if any of the anointed have left if they do not agree with teachings and counsel? Could they even be disfellowshipped – surely their understanding of God’s principles and will be more vast as they have the holy spirit in them?? Just something I have wondered about over the years and wonder if anyone else has considered anointed vs governing body before

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Nikster,

      Actually, the Governing Body claims to be anointed with a heavenly calling. However, I am not sure if there are any left in their writing department that are anointed. How is it that with thousands of anointed in the organization, that material is not exclusively written by those with spiritual insight, who have the Holy spirit indwelling?

      You asked if someone anointed could be disfellowshipped? You mean like Ray Franz? Well then yes. That answers the question. I would imagine though if someone anointed were disfelloeshipped, that the assumption would be that they were a fake, never really anointed.

      Based on what I have seen, I imagine that there are many who believe they are anointed that are hiding their conviction for fear of disaproval from the elders. On the other hand, how many that publically claim to be anointed actually are?

      From the anointed, we would expect to see genuine humility, a spiritual drive and passion for the Bible and spiritual interests and greater insight.

  • Bret

    Here is what brother Russell stated about the “False Messiahs and False Teachers” mentioned in Matthew 24. Every Witness should read this information…

    “If any man shall say unto you then, Lo here is Messiah, or there, believe it not. For there shall arise false Messiahs, and false teachers, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible they would deceive the very elect. Remember I have foretold you.” Matt. 24:23-25

    The deceivers here described certainly are not the fanatics who from time to time have claimed to be Christ and have deceived but few possessed of any degree of common sense and judgment.

    Various Protestant denominations, although they acknowledge no head except Christ, nevertheless practically make their Synods, Conferences and Councils into heads, from which they take their laws, usages, and confessions of faith, instead of the one only head of the one true Church.

    For a large period and to a greater or less extent these systems of men have so counterfeited the genuine Messiah (head and body) as to partially deceive many.

  • sherry

    Thanks for the answer you had it right as far as I know.

  • sherry

    Was their ever a Israelite woman as a governess?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Sherry – A governess is a woman employed to teach children in a private household. I don’t recall that station mentioned in the Bible. Did I get your question right or are you asking whether there was ever a Jewish female governor in Israel?

  • sherry

    Yes that would be okay. Was Nehemiah and Zerubbabel a govener?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Sherry,

      Both Nehemiah and Zerubbabel were Governors of Judah in that order.

      Nehemiah 5:14 (NASV) “Moreover, from the day that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year to the thirty-second year of King Artaxerxes, for twelve years, neither I nor my kinsmen have eaten the governor’s food allowance.”

      Nehemiah 8:9 (NASV) “Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law.”

      In the 20th year of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, Nehemiah was cup-bearer to the king. Learning that the remnant in Judah were in distress and that the walls of Jerusalem were broken down, he asked the king for permission to return and rebuild the city. Artaxerxes sent him to Judah as governor of the province with a mission to rebuild, Once there, Nehemiah defied the opposition of Judah’s enemies on all sides—Samaritans, Ammonites, Arabs and Philistines—and rebuilt the walls within 52 days.

      Zerubbabel was a governor of the Persian Province of Judah (Haggai 1:1). He was the grandson of Jehoiachin, the captive king of Judah (1 Chr. 3:17). A descendant of David, he was in the direct line of the ancestry of Jesus (Luke 3:27; Matt. 1:12). With the blessing of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1-2), Zerubbabel and Jeshua the high priest led the first band of captives back to Jerusalem. They also returned the gold and silver vessels that Nebuchadnezzar had removed from the Temple.

      In fact, Zerubbabel was the prime builder of the second Temple, which was later re-constructed by King Herod. For some 20 years he was closely associated with prophets, priests, and kings until the new Temple was dedicated and the Jewish sacrificial system was re-established.

  • sherry

    To Jan Hoekstra:
    was able to check out your web site. Notice their is a chairman running your organization. And three kinds of gifts along with traveling around the world.

    Sorry, why I eat gmo foods and get pollution stuffed in me, I can see your farming is no working.

    Also saw you blast Catholics for hundreds of years.

    And as far as I can see, you miss use scriptures just like the Catholics.

    So, tell me, what is different between you and any other religion.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Sherry are you addressing Jan Hoekstra? That is his website. If so I can include the name Jan there so he knows it is for him if that is okay.

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