The first ten requests can receive one free copy each of this booklet: C.T. Russell Not Founder of JWs You can order your request by emailing me at BibleStudents1@Gmail.com with your name and mailing address. This information will be kept confidential, but you can request to be included on our event announcement emailing list. More copes can be ordered at a nominal cost.
Quoting form author Kenneth Rawson, in his book, Pastor Russell the Founder of the Bible Students, not the Jehovah’s Witnesses (2nd Edition), we read the following:
With all the Internet exchange of information, Jehovah’s Witnesses are beginning to realize that the image of Judge Rutherford is a liability and they are out to minimize his stature and fictionalize a relationship between Pastor Russell and Jehovah’s Witnesses that never existed.
Additionally, there are thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses and ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses who are dissatisfied with the current operation of the Watch Tower and the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Unfortunately, many have become mentally depressed.
Both my parents were Bible Students before Judge Rutherford gained control of the Watch Tower. From a young age I have vivid memories of discussions my parents had with other Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s day concerning the takeover of the Watch Tower by Judge Rutherford and the direction he pursued.
Also, my situation in the Bible Student movement during the 1940s through the 1960s enabled me to have discussions with more close associates of Pastor Russell than other Bible Students. This history has been invaluable to me.
I learned from these associates of Pastor Russell that in 1926 Judge Rutherford discarded the basic Scriptural teaching of character development. Galatians 5:18-25 and 2 Peter 1:4-11. He said we are characters and can’t change. They felt this was to justify some of his questionable actions. Actually, this was the beginning of the end of many Bible Students’ relationship to the Watch Tower. Why?
Pastor Russell’s Bible Students cherished the teaching of character development. They believed that the 144,000 were to share with Jesus in the Kingdom, as sympathetic priests (1 Peter 2:9) who would nurture, develop in love and judge the world of mankind. To qualify for this work they must now develop the character likeness of the Heavenly Father. 2 Corinthians 3:18.
The writer published some of this material in the 1950s, 1970s and most of it in the 1990s, but the need is now greater than ever. The information goes forth with the prayer that by our Heavenly Father’s grace it will give Scriptural direction to those who love Jehovah.
To read more, click on this link: C.T. Russell Not Founder of JWs
Thanks Peter,Jacqueline and everyone else, we can all get a clearer understanding on things by questioning them from all angles.
DITTO
Yeah it’s weird how the Jw’s call the BS “evil slaves” when lately they’ve been running a series of stories of the “history” of the Jw’s which has included the Bible students shown with the SITS volumes and of course photos of Pastor Russell! This is currently being run in their watchtower study edition.
We dont call the early BS “evil slave”.These brethren are in heaven now.They dont longer exist.You are just an immitation.This immitation is the “evil” one.And thats why you dont accept the present truth.SITS,volume 1,”Divine Plan of the Ages”:
“Those who will turn away from the mere speculations of men, and devote time to searching the Scriptures, not excluding reason, which God invites us to use (Isa. 1:18), will find that a blessed bow of promise spans the heavens. It is a mistake to suppose that those without faith, and consequent justification, should be able to apprehend clearly the truth: it is not for such. The Psalmist says, “Light [truth] is sown for the righteous.” (Psa. 97:11) For the child of God a lamp is provided whose light dispels from his pathway much of the darkness. “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psa. 119:105) But it is only “the path of the just” that “is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.” (Prov. 4:18) Actually, there is none just, “none righteous, no, not one” (Rom. 3:10); the class referred to is “justified by faith.” It is the privilege only of this class to walk in the pathway that shines more and more–to see not only the present unfoldings of God’s plan, but also things to come. While it is true that the path of each individual believer is a shining one,yet the special application of this statement is to the just (justified) as a class. Patriarchs, prophets, apostles and saints of the past and present have walked in its increasing light; and the light will continue to increase beyond the present–”unto the perfect day.” It is one continuous path, and the one continuous and increasing light is the Divine Record, illuminating as it becomes due…God’s Word is a great storehouse of food for hungry pilgrims on the shining pathway. There is milk for babes, and strong meat for those more developed (1 Pet. 2:2; Heb. 5:14); and not only so, but it contains food adapted to the different seasons and conditions; and Jesus said the faithful servant should bring forth meat in due season for the household of faith–”things new and old,” from the storehouse. (Luke 12:42; Matt. 13:52) It would be impossible to bring forth such things from any sectarian creed or storehouse. We might bring forth some things old and good from each, but nothing new. The truth contained in the creeds of the various sects is so covered and mixed with error that its inherent beauty and real value are not discernible. The various creeds continually conflict and clash; and as each claims a Bible basis, the confusion of thought, and evident discord, are charged to God’s Word. This has given rise to the common proverb: “The Bible is an old fiddle, upon which any tune can be played.”… Nor is it sufficient that we find ourselves now in the path of light; we must “walk in the light,” continue to make progress, else the light, which does not stop, will pass on and leave us in darkness. The difficulty with many is that they sit down, and do not follow on in the path of light. Take a concordance and examine the texts under the words sit and stand, then compare these with those found under the words walk and run, and you will find a great contrast: Men “sit in darkness,” and with “the scornful,” and stand among the ungodly, but “walk in the light,” and “run for the prize.” Isa. 42:7; Psa. 1:1; Heb. 12:1.Perfection of knowledge is not a thing of the past, but of the future–the very near future, we trust; and until we recognize this fact we are unprepared to appreciate and expect fresh unfoldings of our Father’s plan…Thus gradually God opens up his truth and reveals the exceeding riches of his grace; and consequently much more light is due now than at any previous time in the Church’s history.
“And still new beauties shall we see,
And still increasing light.”
BROTHER RUSSELL
Dear Br. Anonymous, thank you for replying. For the benefit of those that responeded last conversation, I want to let them know you are the same anonymous. Am I correct my brother? If so others will know how to direct. Take Care.
(This is Spring break here in America in my neck of the woods and grandaddy and I are up to our necks in grandbabies age 3, 5, 9 boys so I will just peek in as we try too entertain and drink energy drinks. LOL)
yes
Annonymous – When Judge Rutherford implemented a hostile takeover of the Watchtower, he changed the International Bible Student Association into an organization that attempted to take away the Christian liberty of each independent Congregation and bring them all under his control. Many of us Bible Students today can trace back our heritage to grandparents and great grandparents who were Bible Students in Brother Russell’s day. 75% of us broke away and regrouped to continue as we had been. The Bible Students of today believe exactly as they did in the days of the early Watchtower. We still study from the Bible and Charles Russell’s Studies in the Scripture series. True – the light gets brighter – but that means it just gets clearer, not that it keeps changing. And it has not changed. It is the same today as it was 100 years ago.
John 16:13 says, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.” The Holy Spirit necessary to guide us to Truth. Do you ever go to Anointed JWs to ask them to explain scriptures to you? Do you believe there are Holy Spirit Anointed ones today in the JW Organization? Do you personally know any of them and have confidence that they are Spirit Anointed? If so, can you detect a difference in them and other JWs? Do they have more insight? Have you ever tried talking to them to verify this? Do they agree down the line with the JW Organization? Does that mean the Holy Spirit isn’t giving them any advantage since they are doing what you do, that is, get all your understanding from the Organization without questioning any of it?
Peter, you said the light gets clearer,which I agree with,could you tell me which of Russell’s beliefs have changed besides some of the obvious ones like 1914 being the date when the anointed ones would go to heaven etc;
Ken – Prophecies about Israel have become more clear for example, since Russell’s time. Nothing has changed at all as far as most Bible Students are concerned. It is up to each one to decide in their own mind. The conventional thinking among the anti-JW Christian world is that Russell was wrong on 1914, but generally the people who say he was wrong, never read Volume 2. Personally, I think Russell was right on with 1914. The Europeon Kings lost their thrones and colonies, church/state rule ended and the Balfour Declaration proclaimed Palestine a homeland for the Jews. Russell expected too much to happen more quickly. The Volume 2 forward clarifies. Compare the Jews looking at prophecy who expected the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 would point to a Messiah that would immediately defeat the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom. They were right in pinpointing the prophecy to that time, but their expectations of what would happen were too high. That didn’t make the 70 weeks prophecy wrong. After Christ’s death and resurrection, the meaning of Daniel 9 became more clear.
Yes Peter I agree Russell was right about 1914 being the end of the Gentile times(eventhough many thought they’d be taken to heaven then). But what about the belief that Jesus’ sacrifice even covered Adams sin, was that taught by Russell or was it a new belief?
Russell’s biggest teaching was “A RANSOM FOR ALL” which includes the resurrection of Adam. There is a chapter in the Divine Plan of the Ages called, “Ransom and Restitution.” There is a more detailed chapter on the Ransom in Volume 5. I’ll try to find a citation for you.
The whole philosophy of the Ransom (Greek Anti-lutron – meaning corresponding price) is that Jesus was an exact corresponding price for Adam which met the terms of justice. A perfect human life (Jesus) for a perfect human life (Adam). As it says in the Law of Moses, “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.”
Here is one of many quotes that show that Russell believed that Adam would be resurrected: “But if He was The Christ, the Sent of God, who left the glory of the Father and was made flesh that He might “taste death for every man,” then we behold Him as the great Redeemer of the world, whose death was necessary as a Ransom, or corresponding price, to secure the release of mankind from the death sentence and to make possible the resurrection of Adam and his race.” This is taken from ::R5120 : page 328:: under the subhead “THE GREAT QUESTION.”
So at the end of the 1,000 Yr. reign when mankind is restored to Adamic perfection, and someone sins wilfully,like Adam did, shouldn’t they be forgiven too like Adam was?
At the end of the 1,000 Year reign, as I understand it, if anyone sins willfully, they will face the “second death.” The entire 1,000 Year reign is the judgment period. If anyone sins willfully, during that time, that was their chance to be forgiven as it is for Adam.
My point is PERFECT Adam already had his chance at proving faithful under trial…but he failed, so at the end of the 1,000 Yr. reign, when everyone is judged,and those who’ve been judged for gehenna will be able say…Well Jehovah, I know I failed the final test but can you give me one more chance like you did Adam?Since Jehovah is a just God, what do you think he’d say?
Ken, I think that Jehovah knows everything, even that Adam would sin. It was his purpose to create man and no one puts a wrinkle in his plan. He didn’t react to Adam’s sin, he knew it already. In his wisdom he decided to let man learn from his experience with evil and disobedience to see that the new world under Christ is far better. To follow rule by Jehovah after the Millenium.
Now, where did Adam have a test other than what Jah put before him of eating from the tree. Perhaps you will say he that is faithful in what is least etc. But this was a life or death matter. Adam never could imagine an atomic bomb dropping on his children. Measles, Malaria, Mumps, Polio, heart disease, Cancer. He had no experience with sin. Eve was deceived but Adam knew snakes didn’t talk, so his sin was willful in that regard. The Bible said dust tho art and dust tho shall return. Where is the greek word for Gehenna here? where is there a penalty of everlasting death. Well what about Eve, she started it with Adam, and she only got a punishment of severe childbirth pain and that she would be in a male dominated society of this world. Both proved true for her and Adam returned to dust. Now Jehovah was talking to Eve and Adam when he at Gen.3:15 offered hope for them. Those two people only heard that from God. It will apply to all of their progeny. But he was talking to them. We as witnesses tended to put words into the mouth of the Bible. Jehovah was issuing harsh punishments there to snake, and all. Wouldn’t this be a good time to say and into everlasting death tho shall go. Maybe he didn’t say it because only Jehovah witnesses believe that. It is another let’s all be different approach of Br. Rutherford. Adam just might be our best ally and teacher after seeing what happened to his progeny. He never saw what death of a human was like until after Abel. Animal death was never meant to be mourned. They don’t have “time indefinite inside of them’. So seeing animals die is not like seeing humans die. He knew better than to eat but he learned through experience to not disobey God’s laws for they are for our edification. Remember he is a just God and the punishment fits the crime. Are we more just than him? Just my thoughts.
PS. Ken I think at the end of the thousand years they will have seen from 6,000yrs of experience that God’s just way is the best. God set in motion man’s sestoration from the founding of the world. Not the throwing down of seed at Eve’s creation as the society teaches. Literally as he created what he foresaw was already being set in morion a redeemer. If you have children you know you see it coming but you let them go on make the mistake and learn./ Then you already knew you would have to help and that child learned a valuble lesson. (just saw second part to your comment.)
Ken – You make perfect sense and you present a very logical case. To my mind, the real issue here is what the Bible specifically teaches on the matter. We can quote many scriptures that say that ALL will be saved and come back.
John 5:28-29 – “the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will … come forth” NKJV
Rom 5:18 “through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life”
We can quote many more scriptures like this, but the point is that they say “ALL” without listing exceptions.
A very important verse in this discussion is: 1 Tim 2:6 – “who gave Himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be testified in due time,” NKJV
Ken – a very critical part of this discussion is the actual definition of the word “RANSOM.” It is from the Greek word “Anti-lutron” and it means “an equivalent, corresponding price.” This concept of the “corresponding price” is a fixed law of God’s universe! It is expressed in Israel’s Law Covenant: “You shall give LIFE for LIFE, eye for eye, tooth for tooth” Ex 21:23-24 … even so in CHRIST shall All be made Alive.”
1Co 15:22 says, “For since by a man (Adam) came death, by a man (Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead.”
Jehovah’s justice demanded a LIFE for a LIFE. The only equivalent LIFE of perfect Adam was perfect Jesus. The human race inherited their sin from Adam (Rom 5:12 “through one man sin entered the world”). By dying in Adams place, Jesus removes Adams sin and thereby removes the condemnation the human race inherited from him. Mankind can come back to life, only by virtue of the fact that Adam is coming back. If Adam cannot be Ransomed, than the sin inherited from Adam by the human race cannot be removed all at once.
CONSIDER THE CONTRASTS BETWEEN ADAM AND JESUS:
1 ADAM – A Perfect Man-with the right to live forever, as long as he obeyed God.
JESUS – A Perfect Man. (Not of Adamic descent born of a virgin by God’s power.)
2 ADAM – Sinned through disobedience
JESUS Obeyed God perfectly.
3 ADAM – Condemned to death. “In the day that you eat of it you will surely Die”Gen 2:17; “For the wages of sin is death.” Ro 6:23; “The soul that sins, it shall die.” Eze 18:4 3.
JESUS Had the right to Live forever, because obedient. “If a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right he shall surely live, says the Lord God.” Eze 18:5, 9; “Walk in His ways that you may live.” De 30:16
4 ADAM – All of Adam’s children (the entire human race) inherit Adam’s sin and sentence of death. Rom 5:12,17-18; 1Co 15:21-22 4.
JESUS – If Jesus had fathered children, his descendants would inherit his perfection, and if obedient, live forever.
5 ADAM – and all mankind would be condemned to eternal death and dying-unless another perfect man offered to give his life as a ransom (“corresponding price”) in Adam’s place.
JESUS Jesus gave up his own perfect human life to die as a ransom in place of Adam, thereby releasing the death sentence upon Adam and all his posterity!
Here is a seven minute video that demonstrates the meaning of “RANSOM” with a great illustration of balancing scales
Hi Peter,Yes I viewed the video(thanks)it was a review of a concept I was already familiar with.To me, it’s just showing that in order for mankind to be redeemed he needs a new father to REPLACE the old one,a perfect one.It’s like kids having a father that turns out to be a murderer and he is sentenced to death,so the grandfather not wanting to see them left destitute, makes provision through another son to pay off debts so the children can have a new life but this provision is only in effect, as long as,the children obey the requirements of the grandfather.
Well I just “happened” to start reading the 5th volume of SITS last night(Atonement between God and man)and ‘lo and behold’…the first section is talking about the subject of the ranosom for all,including Adam! After reading and looking up a few scriptures I began to realize that Jehovah’s justice tempered with mercy would make it possible for Jehovah to forgive Adam and Eve!
Ken I have grands until Sat. I am going to start the 5th (sits.) since you brought that out. Having been with my family for 2 1/2 weeks (went to Disney)now I want next week to be all about learning about the ransom and what we have to do as far as is revealed now. I feel I have been blessed to still have my family intact. One ex-elder was here when I got 6 calls from six different family JW and 3 calls from non family members from this area. We thought that was strange for my phone to ring so much in one day. I take it from Jehovah to be courageous this Memorial and get to my brothers physically on that day. I really appreciate what you bring to this site Ken. It brings out the vast storehouse of knowledge out of Br. Peter and Br. Jeff’s head. They are a lifeline for so many. Jesus is using them in this special ministry to us former witnesses. Enjoy your read, I will join you tomorrow and catch up.LOL
Ken – What this really proves is that I don’t make any sense, so it’s better for smart people like you to just go straight to the Volumes to get their answer. LOL
Ken – I want to go back to this point, because it is a very logical and good point. I think the answer is that Adam and his posterity were not outright forgiven. Justice demanded that a Ransom (corresponding price) had to be provided for Adam to release him from the prison house of death (so to speak). So, in your question you rhetorically asked if someone sins after the 1,000 years, shouldn’t they be forgiven? I think the answer is that in theory they could be forgiven if the demands of justice were met on their behalf. In other words, let’s say Ken that after the 1,000 years a perfect person agreed to give their life a ransom price to save someone who had disobeyed Jehovah. This could meet the demands of justice to bring the sinner back, however I don’t believe that at that point that Jehovah would approve such a transaction.
Peter/Jacqueline and Sharon,all your points make sense,however, consider this scripture: Heb. 10:26….”if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left”…….Since Adam was perfect and had accurate knowledge of the truth that was needed for him at that time(the knowledge of not to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden)but sinned anyway;he was no longer covered by Jesus Christ sacrifice.
Ken – Fellowshipping with you in scripture study is a pleasure because you actually have legitimate scriptures to back up your point. In this case, I think Paul is talking about the same group in verse 29 where he says (Heb 10:29 NASV) “How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
I believe that only those begotten of the Holy Spirit (Anointed) have this blood covenant relationship. In the Bible, sanctification is closely connection with the indwelling Holy Spirit (being Anointed). 1 Pet 1:2 (NKJV) says “sanctification of the Spirit” and 2 Thess 2:13 (NKJV) sasy “Sanctification by the Spirit.”
In the same book, Heb 6:4 (NASV) says “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
In other words, Jesus died for all people just once. The Anointed are on trial for life during the Gospel Age. Therefore, they are sanctified and Spirit Begotten (Anointed). Turning back and rejecting this covenant relationship results in second death since Jesus sacrifice can only be applied once.
What about the angels that sinned at the time of the flood? 2 Pet 2:4 says, “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.” Why weren’t these angels destroyed? It says they are reserved for judgment, which implies that some of them may repent. 1 Cor 6:3 says, “You shall judge both men and angels.” So the faithful bride of Christ will participate in judging angels that sinned against clear knowledge and had no excuse. There would be no future judgment discussed if they had already been judged and destroyed in the past.
Jehovah is very loving and patient.
2 Peter 3:9 – “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV
1 Tim 2:4 – God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
John 3:17 – God sent his Son to save, not condemn, the world.
(see also Isa 14:24; Isa 45:22-23; Jonah 3:10)
Ken, I really like letting Br. Peter show strong scriptural support for what I now believe is the truth about our first parents. Eve has always concerned me as She was listening to other people (Adam and angel). Also Jehovah wasn’t as harsh with her, leaving me always to think that Jesus could cover her sin. Because 1Peter 1:20 says he (Christ) was known before the founding of the world so Adam and Eve should have been covered as Br. Peter is showing from scripture. To say he isn’t is to assume I would think because Jehovah never stated an exception in scripture to any of mankind not being able to benefit from the ransom. The Ransom for all was a doctrine taught by the society as early as the 1950′s when I was a little girl and I once mentioned it at a CO visit and was strongly told that was old truth or what had I been reading? After the meeting I told him I was perhaps 20 years his senior and remembered it as being taught but changed in the 1960′s.
According to Ge. 3:15 Jehovah told the serpent(Satan)he’d be “bruised in the head”(death)so his judgement has already been decided, his case can be compared to a murderer who has been sentenced to death but the date of execution is in the future and when it finally does come the judge,executioner and jury will have a part in it being carried out.So it’s the same with the anointed ones in heaven; they’ll help Jesus in some way to carry out this judgement, i.e.;execution.
Ken – Again I think you are bringing out a good scriptural argument. Here is how I would respond. In my mind there is a difference between a death sentence and judging a case. How can the Anointed Bride of Christ judge angels if they have already been judged? Just a formality? This is the same position taken by Denominational Christians of Rev 20 where the books are open and people are judged. They view the resurrection of mankind as a formality. Most of these people are already in Hell, but now their souls are joined to their bodies and they are sent to the Lake of Fire. It really makes no sense. The Merciful Jehovah gives them the 1,000 years as a time for education and repentence.
Did the Ransom video with the balance scales not impress you? How do you explain the word RANSOM which in the Greek is “Anti-lutron” meaning an equivalent or corresponding price?” Isn’t this in connection with Ex 21:23 “Life for Life”?
Why do dozens of scriptures that say ALL will be saved or resurrected don’t list exceptions? For example
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
Gen.22:18 – “In your seed ALL the nations of the earth shall be blessed ” NKJV
Luke 2:10 – “the angel said…I bring you good tidings of great joy… to ALL people.” NKJV
Heb 2:9 – “But we see Jesus … that He … might taste death for EVERYONE.” NKJV
John 12:32 – “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself.” NKJV
John 1:29 – “John …said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! NKJV
John 6:51 – “the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” NKJV
Isa 40:5 – “The glory of the LORD shall be revealed, And ALL flesh shall see it together ” NKJV
Hag 2:7 – “And I will shake all nations, and the desire of ALL nations shall come” KJV
Acts 24:15-16 – “there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” NKJV
John 5:28-29 – “the hour is coming in which ALLl who are in the graves will … come forth” NKJV
Rom 5:18 “through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life”
1 Cor 15:22 – “as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive.” NKJV
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
(see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV
I want to make another point, besides the ones already made… I do believe that Hebr 10:26 can turn “against us”, but I don’t agree that this has to be the case with Adam and Eve… The tree is a interesting symbol… Adam and Eve were innicent in a pure form… They didn’t know the difference between Good and Evil… Jehovah told them not to eat from the tree, for then they would die… That was what they knew, so Satan came and told them they could be like God, knowing good and evil… As the bible let us know that was exactly what was the case… Adam and Eve learned about the fact of Good and evil… And that is the case with the people in the 1000-year kingdom, they will have learned…
Br, Anonymous, I beg to differ. It is the early Bible Students thast were called the evil slave. They say the descendants are all dead. They do not call the modern descendants anything really as they say they don’t exist.
Now that you and I know that is an untruth, Isn’t it nice to have web-sites such as this one and others to tell us the “truth about the truth”. If you could get pass the obvious prejudice that you have for these survivors and focus on what is being said it might help you to progress as many of us have. We were like you at first, we didn’t believe they were real. Go to a convention in your country, see for yourself, feel touch and pinch them, they are real and have kept busy and in secret from Jehovah Witnesses perhaps for this day. What are your thoughts on some of the articles. For instance, What do you think about the Armageddon podcast clearly showing from scripture that the system goes down, not judgement day? Or do you feel it is judgement for all on that day and what is your scripture support. please, my brother if you will? Sincerely Jacqueline.
I wanted to reply to Ken in his discussion of whether Adam and Eve will be a part of the “Ransom for all,” but it wouldn’t let me reply to any of the other responses. So this is ending up in the wrong place. However,just a plain comment I wanted to make about Adam and Eve eating of the “fruit.” When a parent tells a child, “don’t put your finger in that light socket, sparks will come flying out your ears and you may even die.” That child has no idea what the parent is talking about. And probably have no idea what death is all about. Even though Adam and Eve weren’t children they has as little experience as a child. They were told “on that day you shall surely die,” but they really had no conception until they were ousted from Eden and slowly declined into death. They learned the difference between good and evil. In the resurrection they will have an opportunity to make that final choice between right and wrong. It’s not a do-over, it’s just final judgment time.
Well lot has been said… But I find it interesting what Anonymous says that biblestudents are apostate and the evil slave (or did you mean Sharon in person)… Because what is the pastor then? He wrote clearly in his testament how he wanted that the groups would evolve… He wrote the truth, but when we now decide that what he wrote makes any sense it is false? What is your definition then of truth?
Everybody in that time who read the “studies in the scriptures” knew it was correct what they read, and suddenly it wasn’t anymore? Why? Because someone else said it… A lot where confused about the things Rutherford said, and they asked: “Must we take this seriously?”
I met the Biblestudents through the “kingdom”-book, and all I could think of when I read it was how I wanted thoses classes again, faith that is not governed by others, learning in freedom… Like many I read they didn’t exist any more, it was from the past, but they do… All over the world there are little groups and individuals who preach and worship… Look in acts how disputes were handled, not by a group at the head, no, but by mutually discussing it with each other, learning from each other… Taking the bible (then only the old testament), letters were send, and people learned from them, but they were FREE… If you read the letter to philemon you read about Onesimus, how lovingly he was embraced back in their womb, how can you compensate this with disfellowshipping other humans because they do not agree with you? It just makes me sad, anonymous…
LOVE was the greatest, remember?
How refreshing to hear from you Brother. You stated it calmly and accurately. Welcome and thanks for commenting. I am sure as others awaken they will see your comment and welcome you also. Nice to hear from Brothers on the other side of the world. Most don’t speak but thank you. In Christ Dear Name Jacqueline.
Thank you dear sis… I’m glad to have found your website… I will read a lot in the few weeks to come!
My dear Brother ZENODatus, I really appreciated your comment. Especially, “If you read the letter to Philemon you read about Onesimus, how lovingly he was embraced back in their womb, how can you compensate this with disfellowshipping other humans because they do not agree with you? It just makes me sad, anonymous…
LOVE was the greatest, remember?” I appreciate you using 1 Cor 13:13. I do believe the Watchtower Society has forgotten what true love – Christian love – is!!! If they truly knew Christian love how could they kick out and abandon their children? Their fathers, mothers – other family members and friends. I’ve never known a truer love than that shown by the Bible Students. I have recently been drawing parallels between the Papacy and the Watchtower Governing Body. The Governing Body in their handling of forgiveness makes themselves like the Catholic Priest in forgiving sin. A Witness nor a Catholic is forgiven until the Elder or the Priest say so!!!! GOD has nothing to do with it because they take his place here on the earth. Well, that is what they believe any way. We, Bible Students, know GOD only has the right to forgive the sinner.
Hello Sharon,
Thank you for your kind reply… And yes, I also see not much difference between papacy and the governing body…
Also in their understanding of destroyment of the wicked, I see not much difference between the hell for the infidel like taught by mainstream religion. It was one of the mainreasons why I coudn’t stay a Jehovah’s witness… It just wasn’t right.
And yes, when you want to reinstate in the community, you have to write a letter to the elders where you express your guilt, and then they decide if you are “worthy” enouph to return :s.