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Brother Russell Founded the Bible Students, not Jehovah’s Witnesses

This early Bible Student history book is written by Bro. Ken Rawson, a Bible Student elder who knew more Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s and JF Rutherford’s time than any other Bible Student elder alive today.

After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916, the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed drastically. Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, seized legal control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors, and established dictatorial authority. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the “new society” seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell as the writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions, such as refusing blood transfusion and saluting the flag, caught the public’s eye.  But many individuals and whole congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the newly declared sovereign headquarters
began. By 1918 one-fourth of the Bible Students left Judge Rutherford and remained true to the teachings of the late Pastor Russell.

To read more click on the pdf file below.

Bible Students not Jehovah Witnesses.pdf final

88 comments to Brother Russell Founded the Bible Students, not Jehovah’s Witnesses

  • WyattEarp2nd

    I know I am coming late to the party here. My apologies. It’s 2016!!!
    I am reading this thread with great interest. Especially since watching recently the testimony of Geoffrey Jackson, a member of the GB, in the Australian Royal Commission inquiry into child abuse. Fascinating to say the least. Firstly, has anybody on these forums seen that? Then I shall continue on your reply as I have one or two observations to contribute on the subject of the F&DSC subject. Many thanks. WyattE

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hi WyattEarp2nd, yes I followed the entire commission report and just spoke with a person that is flying over there to give more insight into this organization. We shared the links as they were presented during the trials.

      • Anonymous

        Hi Jacqueline

        I was wondering if I could begin a dialogue with you in private about a few subjects. I find myself in this process of transition and frankly reading everything in forum, while enlightening doesn’t address my personal crisis. Let me know.
        Regards
        Wyatt

    • greg (Bible Student)

      Hello and Welcome.

      Yes, I have been following the happenings with what I will call a cautious interest. As a former JW, and as a male survivor of childhood abuse, I’m keenly interested in the issue. However I add the word cautious because I was so disgusted by the things I heard being said by GJ that I couldn’t stand to listen to any more than a few excerpts.

      Do share your comments, please.
      -greg

  • WyattEarp 2nd.

    I know I am coming late to the party here. My apologies. It’s 2016!!!
    I am reading this thread with great interest. Especially since watching recently the testimony of Geoffrey Jackson, a member of the GB, in the Australian Royal Commission inquiry into child abuse. Fascinating to say the least. Firstly, has anybody on these forums seen that? Then I shall continue on your reply as I have one or two observations to contribute on the subject of the F&DSC subject. Many thanks. WyattE

  • When the WTC show that “Christmas” and the “cross” are not Christian founded , why your organisation keep going in something what is not correct ?
    The Christianity do such things from pagan history. So why you should not leave such?
    As Bible Students we accept many things from brother Russel, but not the mistakes he did.

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Jan Hoekstra and thank you for your comment. Persons are free to decide for themselves on whether Christ died on a cross taking him from morning to evening as pictured by the sacrifices in Israel or if a 15-20 death with hands upright over his head. The fact is he paid the ransom first for the Jews in the morning then for the rest of mankind between the two evenings.
      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/torture-stake-or-cross/
      Many persons minds are on Jesus at this time and there is no prohibition in the bible against celebrating Jesus birthday. Jehovah celebrated it with angels singing and announcing to the shepherds that our Saviour has been born. The tree, and alll the commercialism etc isn’t a part of his birth process. But freedom and liberty in Christ let’s you decide not to and another decide too.
      http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/christmas-2/

      The witnesses have made these salvation issues but not God or Jesus, unless you do have scriptural support. We would love to see it. Sincerely Jacqueline

      • John

        “The witnesses have made these salvation issues but not God or Jesus, unless you do have scriptural support. We would love to see it. Sincerely Jacqueline ”

        No, christmas or the cross are NOT salvation issues, but they are stumbling block to others…

        Take the christmas tree….from the KJV

        Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

        Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

        Sounds like this is NOT something a Christian should do, and something that is not up to decided for ones self. If this does not sounds like a description of a christmas tree, then please tell me what it does sound like?

        There are plenty of passages that can tell us what to do or not do, be it to celebrate, etc with no ambiguity to them at all. All we have to do is listen…..

        You asked that if Jan “have scriptural support. We would love to see it. Sincerely Jacqueline ” I am not Jan, but I have gave you plain scriptural support for NOT having a christmas tree.

        The Apostles, the ones closest to Jesus, and did, without any argument, knew more of what Jesus said, did, commanded, or did NOT command, never celebrated his Birth, and only celebrated His Death & Resurrection in the communion service, in remembrance as commanded to do.

        Since they did not celebrate His birth, should we really do so? Sincerely, John

        • Jacqueline (Bible student)

          Hi John, I am not aware of whether or not the apostles celebrated or was concerned with the celebration of Christ birth. It would seem unlikely because of the severe persecution and the urgency to get the good news about the Christ spread throughout the world.
          You should not celebrate Christmas if that is what your conscience tells you. I don’t see a Christmas tree in the scriptures you mentioned because Christ wasn’t born.
          But it doesn’t matter to me, because I don’t put up one. But for those that do, I choose to let THEIR CONSCIENCE be their guide.
          Some person’s celebrate anniversaries, so don’t. Some people wear wedding rings some don’t. Some women take their husbands last name when they marry some don’t. I could go on and on with the consciences of others.
          From what you have written I would support you in your decision not to celebrate any of the Jehovah witnesses governing body prohibited holidays. You won’t be harmed not celebrating holidays. I never did and am just fine plus my whole family. Also family that did celebrate is doing just fine. It is not an issue, just a witnesses rule issue. Which is still okay, witnesses have rights also.
          I don’t attempt to impose my conscience on others either way. I state what my take is on the matter.
          John please be confident and satisfied in what you are doing. If all of us took care of ourselves in matters not discussed in the Bible the whole body will function smoothly.
          I have no opinion on another’s conscience and if it stumbles someone it is not my intention. Christians don’t stumble because they follow Christ not what another human is doing in eating and drinking.
          Often there is an underlying other reason when a person walks away from God saying,I was stumbled. It is normally a smokescreen.
          If I was such a person I would look inside myself and wonder why am I in the household of another instead of making confident decisions for ME and being content. One Christian at a time and we will all please him well.
          That is my opinion on the matter.
          I AM NOT IN COMPETITION WITH ANYONE, I WANT US ALL TO MAKE IT.
          Thank you John

          • John

            You said…..

            ” I state what my take is on the matter.”

            And this is what I am about to do, with all due respect….

            You said…..

            “I don’t see a Christmas tree in the scriptures you mentioned because Christ wasn’t born.”

            True, it does not specify WHAT the tree was used for, but they way it is described would make anyone that did not know where the quote came from automatically think “christmas”, would it not? And since it says ” For the customs of the people are vain:”, there is only one way you can take the passage, that God says it is “vain” to do what it is describing. A word study will show that a christian should not do the things that the Lord says is “vain”, correct?

            And since a christmas tree is joined at the hip with all the christmas traditions, I can see where it would be a stumbling block for some, IMHO.

            You said…..

            “Often there is an underlying other reason when a person walks away fromvGod saying I was stumbles. It is normally a smokescreen.”

            I agree, but with all due respect your constant use of “THEIR CONSCIENCE be their guide.” is the same thing IMHO. I have been a lurker here since last July off and on, and you seem to carry a lot of weight & respect on this forum. You have gave MANY great responses, and a lot of them I do agree with….but….

            This use of conscience for every thing that you can not back up with Scripture is used the same way many NewAgers use it….we are all one, let your conscience be your guide…..I know what I speak of, I was into that for close to 8 years.

            I am NOT, and in NO WAY, trying to accuse, belittle, or even point fingers. But since you feel that it is OK to respond to folks in a similar way, that is what I am doing.

            To all reading, I will bow out now and go back to lurking, as this type of conversation can only go downhill. I Pray that everyone here will Study as the Bereans did…they checked up on the Apostles, the ones that were taught by Jesus Christ…..should we not do the same?

            May God watch over each and every one of you, John

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              John thanks for your reply. Really I thought you were my friend John from Mississippi. I don’t carry a lot of weigh here at all. Anyone can comment on here and for whatever reason choose not too. There is Br.Peter looking at every comment written by everyone. The main poster on another facebook page is Christopher but you and everyone can post.
              This is a ministry for me and when no one else is looking at this page I willcheck it all day even in a restaurant, because I am on this team. There are other teams that mail out the literature from http://www.chicagobiblele.org. There are groups where you will see them in booths. There is the children class teachers and they work hard to get together their stuff for conventions. You would be amazed at the sister over the bookroom at Chicago convention. How she put that room together baffles me with all kinds of religious things.
              What I am trying to say is this happens to be the page I am assigned to, that is why you see me so much. Anybody can answer but you have to answer a website in a timely manner. You can’t let comments sit. Have you ever went to Christian questions website or listened to Rick and Jonathan and the sister with them? They don’t carry weigh just that is their ministry. I hope you understand a little better about how we work.
              John I have learned a lot since leaving the witnesses. The main thing is not to be so controlling and upset over the private lives of my brothers. I was a witness for 62 years and remember when they were like that. Many celebrated xmas, birthdays and you never bothered the teachers at school about kids coloring turkeys or drawing and decorating a xmas tree. This is new age control stuff from the newly developed system called the governing body. What Color shirt you wear to the kingdom hall doesn’t matter John.
              And the witness would not agree with using those scriptures to prove their point. I believe Christ freed us from individuals like the sanhedrin making policy and burdens on Christian conscience which will work if we let only what God says guide it. I can see an elephant in a cloud but my brother can see a lion in the same cloud. May I ask you John, how are you personally affected by another Christian celebrating a holiday or putting up a tree? Why should they be controlled by what you or I do since the bible is silent on xmas trees and celebrating Christ birth. Surely he knew it would develop but didn’t see a need to stop persons from doing or not doing.
              This seems to be a sticking point and I support your decision to view Christmas trees and commemoration of the birth of Christ as a stumbling block.i have no scriptures to present to tell you you are wrong or that you should. In this world of billions only witnesses labor on personal control about this from what I am seeing since coming out.
              God is silent on the issue in his book for us and I can’t in good faith bind anyone where he is silent. To me it is a conscience matter.
              Are you aware that the organization says taking blood is a conscience matter in some countries but not in the United States? Are you aware they would lose charitable status is some countries if they disciplined a member for taking a blood transfusion? Even they aren’t hardliners on their prohibitions where the bible is really silent. Call them at the 914 878-7000 number and ask if they disfelliwship for this trespass. Call 5 times and get 5 different brothers, you will get 5 different answers. I call them all the time to check on a new change before I comment.
              Sunday our talk was on being confident in your relationship and convictions yet not tread on our brothers rights and conscience. Take care John

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              John I also wanted to share this with you. I am presently in a home where everyone is a witness and all visitors are for the last few days. I babysat all children while they had a little party in a smaller house. Sunday they got up went to the kingdom hall. I got on adobeconnect with Chicago. We all get along just find. An elders wife came by to leave a package one day knowing she had to leave it with me. Another lady was here for 2 hours this morning as I answered the site.
              They know who I am and that i am no longer with the witnesses but we respect each other. They don’t try to persuade me and I know they are committed, but if they ask a question I answer them. Because I give them respect to believe witnesses is the only way they like that.
              I am not in competition with anyone, I want us all to make it. They are learning you don’t have to impose the witnesses non biblical rules on people in your house and none has been hurt from Freedom and Liberty in Christ.

            • Bret (B.S.)

              Jon,
              The Christmas celebration thing as well as the cross discussion really are minor issues that really should be the conscious decision of every Christian under the liberty in Christ. I spent 20 yrs as a Witness 2 years in appointed a servant and then a total 12 years and Elder, pioneer, service overseer, secretary and many other privileges. So i know firsthand how difficult it can be to break the mind controlling environment where your told what to do and then told “it’s your conscious choice”….
              Every aspect of your life there is a Watchtower telling you what to think and how to respond and it changes on a whim while your expected to just except it regardless of what your conscience is telling you.
              I would say take your own advise “like the Boreans” test every inspired expression and you will find that it will not be acceptable according to the JW theology because if you disagree and vocalize it well you will find yourself in trouble.
              Do me a favor and look up the pinata and compare the reasoning with christmas.. One acceptable and one not according to the “Slave”??????

              • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                Hi Brett, you know I understand how many ex witnesses or those coming out are having such a hard time letting go of the control doctrines and rules of the organization. These are experts in psychology and they understand the condition of the mind that says: I am different therefore I must be right!
                Neighborhoods with manicured lawns and everything so perfect think: Look at our neighborhood, we are different from others therefore we are the elite. And it goes on and on on every level of society.
                Now break it down: Hitler was unique and did many fine projects to help his nation and so this made him stand out as unique. But was his ideology really right?
                I have found some of the best kept homes on the outside had unspeakable horrors of child molestation within. ie the Catholic Church, the Jehovah witnesses and the Mormons.
                Smokescreens of weirdness causes people to say oh this religion is strict and therefore society ignores them as just odd when really they are more than odd they can actually hide diabolical things within them because they repel the average person. They target people that have had a death or are in some way down, when they go door to door.
                YOU SHOULD NEVER MAY A BIG DECISION when in any of the circumstances because you are vulnerable. It has been stated that Jehovah witnesses have more than the expected amount of mentally ill people in it. They actually target them at the door! Now when you think back on the Kingdom Ministry teaching methods of what to say and what type of people to talk to, you will notice it.
                As a result it is difficult to work your way out of a mind control situation.
                Christmas trees, Paint Ball games, other things we do are not about salvation. The Bible talks about the Greek games and the procession to win a prize that is a simple garland on the head but they work hard to achieve that. Did they condemn what they were doing no because, the customs we have as humans makes us human and God allows us to still live our lives customs and all. One part of the world has one custom the other have another.
                Witnesses are being distracted from the real Truth, that now Jesus is taking out those that will help him bring the many to righteousness and it is not about PERSONAL SALVATION YET.
                Christ and Jehovah is calling still those out to live in heaven for a purpose to deal with the billions coming out of the grave. To deal with the billions that will be here on the earth after the Armageddon takeover by Christ. We have accepted the offer extended to us by God to work during the thousand year reign of Christ.
                It is not now about personal salvation. God ignored the world and dealt with Israel and now he is dealing with selecting the Kingdom workers and will give knowledge on what is acceptable in the Millennium, when the scrolls are opened and then if putting up a tree is wrong it will be known and not accepted because then will be the time of personal salvation. Living a good life now makes it enjoyable and often time prolongs it. But even the good die young, because now is not about judgement and living forever. An organization will have a fit about a Christmas tree and the celebration of the birth of our Lord yet protect a child molester over and over again never letting the congregation know there are perhaps alledgedly seven men and 2 women child molester in one congregation. How can you go by anything an organization says when their MORAL COMPASS is askew! That strain out the gnat but gulp down the Camel. The Pharisees didn’t know what time period they were in either.
                Our brothers have been smokescreened so as not to see the real situation of this Gospel age.

                • Bret (B.S.)

                  Jacqueline,
                  Well said…. My daughter and i just discussed the other day how many mentaly ill there are in the Kingdom Halls, and how about how many of the Elders wives were depressed; seemed like about every other one was in a depressed state. That was probably brought on by the fear and control no doubt. I am just greatf that I have been liberated from it..

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Brett,

                    Brother Russell discusses this in Volume four in the chapter on our Lord’s great prophecy about Matt 24.

                    It is also discussed here. http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/09/01/our-lords-great-prophecy-jesus-second-presence/

                    When you consider that in the Dark Ages that common people were not permitted to read the Bible for themselves, it is not hard to see the fulfillment of “the Gospel preached in all the world” in the mid 1800s when the Bible Societies published and distributed the Bible in every major language and to every land on the planet.

                    Then the Harvest or end of the Gospel Age came. (Matt 13:39)

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      This is in answer to the following question I received by email.

                      Hello brother Peter
                      Do you happen to have any good articles on Matt 24:14 and good understanding of this prophecy? Most JW’s that I talk with cannot get past the witnesses preaching campaign and believe it’s proof of Gods favor(because of so many languages literature is printed in). They claim that the Bible “don’t do the preaching work”. This is because they view things through a small window… Also an article like that might be good for Friends of JW and spark good conversation. Perhaps i have overlooked one but couldn’t find it except for in the “plan of the ages book”.

        • Anon

          Good afternoon John. Even the watchtower acknowledged that Jeremiah 10 is about the cutting down a tree and fashioning them into IDOLS. Not Christmas trees. The Christmas tree originated in Germany they took them and carved them into idols and gold plated them. These were IDOLs

        • Peter K. (admin)

          John – The context in Jeremiah is shows that this tree that was cut down and carved them in the form of a god was brought into the house as an idol. Your neighbor who has a Christmas tree in their home has no thought of idol worship. However, just as the Apostle Paul advised with meat offered to idols, there is nothing wrong with it, but if it stumbles your brother or bothers your conscience, don’t do it. You can find more elaboration on Christmas and conscience here:

          http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2014/12/14/was-j-f-rutherford-the-grinch-the-stole-christmas/

        • Anon

          John. That scripture is not talking about a Christmas tree. It is discussing cutting down a tree and making it into an idol being gold or silver plated. The Watchtower Society even acknowledges this. If you keep reading last Jeremiah 10:4 and keep going past that you’d see it speaks of then not being able to speak. No one expects a Christmas Tree to speak. It idols they worship is being discussed here. Not the Christmas tree which is a tradition from Europe.

  • Hank

    To Jacquelin,Peter,Dupin and others.

    During part of my life I played monopoly. And some of us have had these type expierences in our lifes. Where we have something and we trade for something else. Like Park Place for two orange dees because that will give you three deeds and now you can put houses on them.

    Or like me, a person who forsook his faith and quit my religion and went to another religion. Some of us here may have done it more then 2 or 3 or more times.

    For example, as a Catholic I did not have any other choice but the following. Heaven, Purgatory, Limbo or burn forever in hell. Then I found out that man could live forever on earth. And found that it never came into God’s heart to burn people. Jer 19:5 And soon I forsook my religion. As I learned more about God I found he is a God of order. And the Corinthians, and Galatians, and Ephesians were unified in one faith. Ep 4:5

    And I have enjoyed being able to share Bible beliefs here. But it is clear, that these Bible believers all have disunified beliefs and answer only to themselves. No unity.

    And the Bible does not teach that. So I thank all for your time, but with the judging of the sheep and goats getting close along with the bundling of the weeds and gnashing of their teeth, I must spread out now in the field.

    So my last hope, is, all of you, will pray very hard and let Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ know that you want eterity serving Him in what ever way He causes you to become. That you want His rulership. I hope you all put that into your heart, so that when His Son reads your heart he won’t find hate, but love for all people. No grudges, but always forgiving everyone before going to bed.

    And heed Rev 11:18 and 19 4-6 whether you are small or great. Fear God and praise Jah!!!

    Hank

  • Hank

    To Jacguelin;

    Continueing from the last one. Ruff guess that maybe 750,000 were in Jerusalem and about 3 to 8 thousand became Christians. And the twelve were ding the teaching, and the rest of the about 108 were heloing where needed. And later when the problem of literal food distribution came up, the ones in charge assigned seven qualified brothers to take care of that problem, but they kept to the spiritual things. So in the beginning of the anointing of brothers and sisters, it was the twelve brothers doing the teaching. They were given help by the helper, and then shared with others what they had. Later Paul became an apostle and Christians had to accept it or leave. And the foretold time of weeds being planted and letting them grow together would be taking place. But before even the helper was poured out four men named Peter and James and John and Andrew began to ask Jesus questions privately. Note, questions.

    “Teacher, see! what sort of stones and what sort of buildings! However Jesus said to him: Do you behold these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

    “Tell us, When will these thing be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?

    Note,”Tell us.” This is how Mark records this so far. Luke writes,”Later, as certain ones were speaking concerning the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, he said:As for these things that you are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.”

    Luke adds,”what will be the sign,” as did Mark.

    How about Matthew. “By no means will a stone will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” Next verse, Tell us,When will these things be and what will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system of things.”

    All the way to Mt 26:2 Jesus tells of future events, but Matthews account includes Jesus presence, and these four wanted to know when and what signs. As for Andrew the last mention of him is in 33 C.E. Acts 1:13 Unkown if he was alive 37 years later. For James it is believed he died in 44 C.E. as Herod Agrippa I had him executed with the sword. He being the first of the twelve apostles to die as a martyr. Acts 12:1-3 Whereas Peter, we believe wrote his second letter in 64 C.E. possibly from Babylon. And as far as I know it is unkown when he died. John we know for a certainty he heard about Jerusalems destruction. But there was no precense of Jesus at that for John 26 years later wrote Revelation and was taken in a vision to the Lord’s day. So there guestions of when and his prence would do them no good, but did those questions give others many things to think about?

    But in Mat 24:45 Jesus asked a question. “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?” Right before that Jesus said,”because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.” And we see that this was way future from those four apostles, for John wrote in Revelation about it, in the Lord’s day. And here Jesus appoints!!!

    Hundreds of thousands in Jerusalem ignored the evidence that the twelve were sent forth, called apostles. Probaly called every name in the book by those who did not accept that a small few would be giving out new light. And stand fast as we got ours and we will decide. But none of them there had a clue when this so called Jesus would make his prence and sometime after that appoint a group of individuals to feed the flock.

    What would we look for? Well, Mt 24:14 would be key. John 13:34,35, would be key. Heb 10:23-25 would be key. Building fellow believers faith up with timely spirtual food would be key. Not burying the Master’s money and saying here it is, just as you gave me, but actually using it to teach and preach the good news of God’s Kingdom.

    Now there are many many more things that are done, but if a person wants to reject them like the masses did the early apostles, we have to see that Jehovah let those ones reject them, but the smaller group became Christians. But remember that was only the beginning for them, till faithful at death to receive their crown.

    Hank

    • Jacqueline

      So we are back where we started. Jesus asked and he alone will answer. So we should be faithful until death and he will give us the crown of life.
      thanks Hank for your comments perhaps others have thoughts that they would like to express. Jacqueline

  • Hank

    To Jacquelin

    Thank you for your coments. Will or will not disagree to you premises. But you did explain, Apostles, Elders, Miller and Russell all as feeding thus being a faithful slave and class not found. So from what you said you do not few the appointedment by Jesus Christ in 1919 as taking place by putting certain anointed ones to do the feeding work.

    That is not surprizing that the majority of people don’t reconize the Faithful Slave class.

    I will picture myself at this speck of land in 33 C.E. I am a worshipper of Jehovah God and I am at Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost. And with me were many reverent men from every nation under the sun. And I hear someone tell me, come look this Galileans are all talking about God in many different languages. And there are claiming that everyone who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved in different languages. Of coarse we already believe that. So we ask ourselves, what does this mean? I mean about 120 men and women speaking all these wonderful things in all these languages?

    Then this certain one stands up and begins speaking and trying to get us to understand, and his other eleven are by his side. Why we have the Hebrew Scriptures. Why should we listen to these unlettered ones? Yet how are they doing this, its not a bad thing is it? They are talking about a man fastened to a stake by lawless men. What can this mean? Their not making sense and notice most of the 1,000 s here are paying no attention to them. Yet there are about 3 or 4 thousand listening. These have freeness of speech, but why should we listen to them?

    Now they are saying this man was resurrected. Yea, I now Elijah did it, but how can they expect me to believe these 12? They are using scriptures which I have read and I didn’t understand it that way. Oh they have got the nerve, they just said we impaled him. Us, that tiny little nation that worships Jehovah. And you people are letting that cut your heart? Are you mad, listening to them?

    Those who are taking this brain washing in are even asking them what they should do. I can’t believe this fellow Israelite that traveled with me is buting it, hook line and sinker. I will have to listen to that all the way home for weeks. Not they want us to repent and get baptised. They are mad.

    And there calling it a crooked generation. I think things are preety nice, a land of opportunity where a honest bride can help a honest person along, you know what I mean. Oh, my God, about three thousand have fallen for this, and no where in the Bible does it say these twelve would do this at this time. It is trickery. Barf city, and they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to sharing and eating and prating together, while I am sticking with the 700,000 who have the right way. Even thought portents and signs were occuring through the apostles.

    Yea, I know the scriptures say the red sea opened, but this I can’t believe. And they are selling their possessions and giving to anyone who had need, talk about milking them, it a shame. I can’t wait till I get home So I can warn all my relatives and friends, for this gangren will spread like wild flowers.

    Hopefully as I was that one who was opposed because my Hebrew Scriptures nowhere say anything about apostles, will somehow get my eyes opened.

    This will be continued.

    Hank

    • Jacqueline

      Hank I guess it is difficult to explain myself on the FDS as a class, because I have an example of one, the governing body. It to me does not properly feed but has become an idol, a God even as there is actual worship going on over here. One witness says to speak against them is like speaking against the Pope. He is idolized and the GB accepts this worship. (I have printed many quotes from watchtower.)
      I do believe there are men that Jehovah and Jesus uses and helps to be in the forefront of the feeding work at any given time. I believe that there has been some on the earth buried among the false that have been used by Jehovah for that particular time period with it’s limitations. (ie, no books, most couldn’t read, so feeding would be in accordance with the period).
      There are domestics in the household with this slave, cooking cleaning (figuratively) etc to help accomplish the total work of taking care of the household of faith. As Peter was in your illustration above, As Brother Russell was Martin Luther, John Hus were at the forefront and suffered martyrdom (some) but others took up the cause when their death insured. So because the one or more faithful servants die are we to conclude that there is no person(s) to take up the reins and start running to feed God’s household? I don’t think so. I think Jesus Christ is the only one alone out front. Will just 1,2 or 10 men be appointed over all his belongings or will there be more.
      The answer to this question leads me to the conclusion that it is not just a few men that have lived at the headquarters of Jehovah witnesses. You mentioned that Br. Russell’s wife viewed him as the slave. Sis Russell had her thoughts and wrote many of the articles but she is not the definitive word on a matter but scripture is.
      I recently visited the grave of Br. Russell this summer and saw the monument his wife put up for him and identified him there as the Laodicean Messenger, Her monument showed her love for her husband and her realization that he was a man used by Jehovah and Jesus as A Faithful and Discreet Slave.
      I can point to many Brothers here in the Bible Students that amaze me at the gigantic efforts and time, money spent to properly feed the household of faith and the world at large with the massive printing efforts.
      The watchtower Bethel often bragged that they only printed and assimilated such material but I have to say they are the only ones tooting their horn and bragging.
      A slave is a head servant and does not call attention to himself with awkward made up doctrine or known for fighting in court or being subversive against governmental authorities. (ie, not accepting other non war services instead of contriction, personal I know.)
      To summarize, yes I do believe there are men (or just one) used in the forefront at any given time as FDS. Is it an exclusive body, held only by a few that have lived in Bethel New York? I don’t agree with this. Thank you Jacqueline

  • Hank

    To Jacquelin

    Mt 3:11,”That one will baptize you people with holy spirit and fire. Acts 2:4,”and they all became filled with holy spirit.”

    1. Jehovah used John the Baptist to tell prospective anointed ones what was coming.
    2. Later God’s beloved Son, the one we are to listen to said. John 14:16,”and I will request the Father and he will give you another helper.”
    3. John 14:26,”But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name.”

    Did God use a human to foretell what would happen? And did not that one have his head cut off? Did the Bible by another writer foretell John’s coming. When John showed up did all the Israelites come to him? What about when he was born, did people witness when he was named? Were they not amazed, and wondered what this one will do? And thirty years later they for the most part were not alive to witnes it were they?

    So the Bible foretold Johns coming in 29 C.E. So at this point we should be able to agree on the following.
    1. The Bible foretells things where people know when, and sometimes when someone at a later period shows the understanding. Two examples. Is John Elijah? Is this Jesus Jeremiah? Eventually a more clear understanding was revealed. And those religious people with questions sometimes have them answered but don’t concern themselves with it. John 5:39-44

    2. Chapter two of Daniel shows Jehovah to be a revealer of secrets. How would you describe free will with this? Would you agree, some are not aware of secrets being revealed? And some get insight but later choose to not go along with it. Or when a more clearer understanding comes along they use their free will to not go along with it. And others rejoice and continue to serve Jehovah as He reveals more secrets. Do you agree?

    4. Consider the Ethiopian who was a worshipper of Jehovah. Reading Isaiah but did not understand. Bam, new light of understanding. Again the choice of free will. And he choose to walk in the new light. Whereas the majority of Israelites worshipping Jehovah choose to say he was a false prophet and not from God. Free will, it is a choice.

    That is why Brother Russell used the following. A clearer understanding, or the present truth. And as Relight-Rodald Day said he did chamge things to what he felt was a better understanding. And he did not claim to be the FS, but his wife did. But after she left him, did she keep sharing the Volumes? No! If she really believed it, would she not have?

    5. Now with Philip and the Ethiopian. Lets pretend it is 100 C.E. And A man named Philip and a man from Ethiopia are at the temple and this man named Philip hears the other reading Isaiah 55. Is it not true that both lacked the understanding at that time?

    So what I need to know from you is the following.
    Are you willing to agree that Brother Russell had truths, but also lacked understanding on certain things? Things which even archaeology would help in making more clear?

    Of coarse you then realize, the Bible Students you know will not agree with you if you say yes. But with the evidence just provided it is clear to see, Prophecy, some understand to some degree, the others make it more clear, is what the Bible shows?

    So Jacquelin I simply need a I agree or I disagree.

    Thank you Hank

    If you agree I will have more coming to answer your question as to why it is so clear who the Fithful slave is now.

    • Jacqueline

      Hank I will not give an agree or disagree to your premises. First you assume what I believe concerning the scripture at Matt 25:45-51 the faithful and wise servant or the that wicked servant that will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. (summation from ESV). Jesus asked a question and he will answer it. I Believe that God in his own time raises up suitable servants or expounders to dispense his meat in due season. When their death occurs others are there and contemporaries. Many Elders even today are dispensing food along with others by diligently searching the word of God with each other and with the Holy Spirit to be in cooperation with Jehovah and Jesus.

      I believe that Br. Russell, Miller and others during that time period proved to be at their death a “wise and Faithful Servant”. Since these are to be appointed over all his belongings, it seems this is talking about the Anointed of God that proved faithful until death (Jas 1:12; 1Pet. 5:4). I believe Paul and Peter, James and John and some of the early Church dispensed food to the household of God and proved faithful and discreet until their deaths overtook them and they have been rewarded. This has been my belief on this scripture for close to 20years. There are other thoughts on my sincere belief but in a nutshell.
      Do I fear disapproval of my other spiritual brothers as you surmise? NO! That fear factor is a JWitnesses thing. We are part of a body and have to be free to see the scriptures as our brain can. More than one person or group is allowed to think among our Christian fellowship.

      BTW: I was shocked to see the watchtower change their view about the appointing over the household (just saw it Sat. in the July 15,2013 mag.). The watchtower with it’s non scriptural governing body is a money making corporation and those 10 guys are pulling a giant Ponzi Scheme. (google Ponzi scheme) Same set up. A bunch of rich power hungry men like most giant corporations. And you would be fired if they knew you were on this site talking to us Hank, so be careful who you talk to about your involvement. I mean it in a sincere and loving way Hank. They turn on most apologists although you are for them.
      The governing body has declared they are the faithful and discreet slave class. I don’t see class mentioned in the Bible. Elders however are mentioned as a body in the bible that work together as shepherds of the flock and we other consecrated ones assimilate and spread the understanding that we glean with the help of the Spirit of God. I have no problem with Christian brothers taking the lead and role in dispensing food to the household of faith. I don’t feel that all of Christianity has discerned the mystery of the kingdom headed by Christ with joint heirship, and I don’t expect to find any faithfully dispensing food at the proper time.
      I also feel that the governing body is a golden calf. Their picture is everywhere and they are self-grandizing. They are receiving their reward and adoration from the flock of witnesses. They are adored by most witnesses. This was evident this weekend at the annual meeting. I think they are graduating to being a God as the crowds clap and roar. If you visit Patterson and one walks by, the brothers will stop and stand as they pass. I’ve seen it, it makes me ashamed to have been a part of them.
      Did you notice the new rendering of John 17:3 it is in harmony now with most other Bible translations that one has to get to know God and not be in a dictated learning program as they used this scripture.
      Oh by the way I don’t answer straw man set ups where you state your fact and ask “do you agree”. Those are your thoughts and I respect your right to have your thoughts but don’t assume that they are proper facts.
      Also you ask about Br. Russell and his wife. I also wonder about Peter and his wife but that isn’t my business and neither are here to defend themselves or if they were hopefully Mrs. Russell would ask people to butt out of her private affairs.
      I don’t worship personalities never have and probably never will:
      Luke 17:10 ” SO YOU ALSO, WHEN YOU HAVE DONE ALL THAT YOU ARE COMMANDED, SAY, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS, WE HAVE ONLY DONE WHAT WAS OUR DUTY.'” Take Care Hank

  • Hank

    To Keepha

    Please follow my info to Jacquelin. Some of what you question may be answered. But I am focusing on her questions at this time.

    Thank you

    Hank

  • Keepha

    @ Hank and others please anwser
    (Matthew 24:31) And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    Q: Why does the Messiah angels have gather his chosen ones from the four corners of the globe if chosen ones are already gathered together in Brooklyn New York?

    July 15 Watchtower pg. 17 says the chosen ones must be gathered already in heaven, this would be before Armageddon.

    Q: Does the Biblical text explicitly indicate literally that the chosen ones are to be taken to heaven prior Armageddon?

    Q: Why does John not mention the would doulos(slave) in his writings?

    July 15 Watchtower pg. 18 After all, the apostles—the original members of the governing body—could provide visible proof of heavenly backing. “ According to the Bible :

    ASV 1 Thessalonians 5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good, and the preceding verse says: CJB 1 Thessalonians 5:20 don’t despise inspired messages. Is this inspired message from God? In 1995 the Watchtower said “Those anointed Bible Students gave proof that they were indeed part of the faithful and discreet slave class, whose commission it is to provide spiritual food for the Master’s domestics. Their efforts were a great aid in the gathering of the anointed ones. However 18 years later they said that Russell and the Bible students are not part of the faithful and discreet slave class.

    Q: does truth change so rapidly?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Keepfa – You have some great questions and I am hoping that Hank or others will comment now that the weekend is over. However, you have been waiting a few days already, so I will share some of my own comments.

      MATT 24:31 – ANGELS GATHER CHOSEN ONES.

      Perhaps your question relates to the fact that the “anointed” JWs have been officially downgraded, stripped of all special relevance and are now no different than any run-of-the-mill Great Crowd member. If so, then why would this gathering of the chosen ones need go beyond headquarters? In the Old Days, the significance of Holy Spirit Anointing (spirit begettal) to be members of the bride of Christ was understood and respected. Sadly, the truth seems to be that the “anointed” JWs have always been a threat to the JW Organizational and power structure. Thy just do not fit in to this organization. Why should the congregation members respect the opinion of an elder or a visiting overseer, over that of an in house “anointed” brother or sister with the special insight that comes from the Holy Spirit? An “anointed” JW sounding the warning signal and letting the congregation know that the organization is mistaken in this area or that will just not do. In order to maintain complete control, these “anointed” JWs (both real and imagined ones) must be taken out of the equation and stop stirring up the pot.

      TAKEN TO HEAVEN PRIOR TO ARMAGEDDON?
      Q: Does the Biblical text explicitly indicate literally that the chosen ones are to be taken to heaven prior Armageddon?
      “for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1Th 4:16 NAS95)

      Here we see that the resurrection of the sleeping Saints begins at the time the Lord returns. Even if one believes that Armageddon begins immediately with Jesus’ return, it seems that at least the sleeping saints are taken prior to the start of Armageddon.

      There are some additional interesting comments here: http://www.biblestudents.com/iwillcomeagain.html

      I will wait and see if others comment berfore I continue.

  • Hank

    To Jacquelin

    Thank you for realizing we all are sinners and coming a bit down hard earlier. As to your questions I will get back to you next week. Thank you again for your patience.

    As to what his sin did and didn’t do I can only tell of many Kings and high priests in Israel who did way, way worse. I admire any young or old one who was rasied in the faith. About 42 or 43 kings, and only six counted good. One of which had a man murdered because he couldn’t get him to sleep with his wife on a three rest from war. And we know why he got him drunk, his wife was pregnant by the king. That is one good trason not to throw stones at sinners. David did true repentence and was forgiven by Jehovah. We all slip. But Jehovah is teaching the sinners who want to learn from him. Ps 25:8

    Hank

    • Jacqueline

      You are correct about us being sinners Hank. I think you are missing my point about his son. He had ample reason not to attend his father’ funeral but since you don’t know about the controversy, I will just drop it. Br Rutherford successors do however have the opportunity to clean up his act. They don’t have to keep going down a road with no signs of turning around. I am not judging them because it will all come out in the wash. Jesus and the kingdom will correct all mistakes, I only mentioned him because of my dad experiences and the witnesses experience with him in the deep Southern United States. We made it without him and as soon as he could dabble in Southern politics he set up one man the company servant and he destroyed our love and connections with the brothers. I have no fond memories of the guy. I remember the very first Awake magazine with the pictures of the dead children that died for not taking blood transfusion. It scared me to death as a child thinking God required me to sacrifice myself. No fond memories at all.Take Care Hank and enjoy the rest of your evening. Jacqueline

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