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How 7 Times get you to 1914 – The End of the Gentile Times

“Hew down the tree. . . leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass . . . let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him” – Daniel 4:14-16

This text comes from a dream of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. Many things occur in dreams which are impossible in reality. That was true in this dream. Nebuchadnezzar saw a great tree which sheltered and nourished all the beasts of earth and fowl of heaven. “The height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.” Suddenly this majestic tree was ordered of the angels to be hewn down, but to leave the “stump of his roots in the earth, . . .  with a band of iron and brass.” (Dan. 4:10-15) The scene changed, and the tree became a man given over to the life of a beast. “Wet with the dew of heaven . . . let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth: let his heart be changed from man’s and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.” (Vs. 15, 16)

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32 comments to How 7 Times get you to 1914 – The End of the Gentile Times

  • Dupin

    Molander, Hello there.

    And welcome aboard. First let me note that your desire to dig deeper than what the Watchtower publishes is commendable. We are encouraged by the Apostle Paul to dig deeper in our quest for the “meat” of the scriptures. That can make thing uncomfortable for us at times, but getting to the bottom of things brings us closer to God and his son. Let’s see about your questions:

    “While a witness I felt that 1914 proofs were water tight and rock solid. When I afterwards started digging deeper I encountered more and more problems. I totally lost logical connection in between the Gentile times and Nebu’s 7 times, my foremost obstacle being the future tempus used in Luke 21:24. This will place the start of this Gentile times somewhere after Jesus said those words.

    There are several other reasons why I fail to understand why these 7 years would carry any additional meaning besides biblically famous “complete”. The Bible and history do not allow Nebu to have that long period for “sick leave”. Nothing in Daniel’s account will indicate that this 7 year period carries any larger meaning besides what is written therein.”

    Actually, Molander, Jesus’ words are how we know the prophecy goes beyond their fulfillment on Nebuchadnezzar, without them there is no connection. But like so many things in the scriptures that connection doesn’t seem so obvious at first glance. Remember, we are dealing with types and antitypes here. Nebuchadnesser is the obvious type since the decree was fulfilled upon him. I realize that secular history doesn’t contain a specific record of Nebu’s fall and years of debilitation, but it is doubtful the ruling family would’ve allowed any record of that in the government archives, so we have to rely on Daniel for that record. Like many other prophecies something to understand is that often God did not grant people knowledge of their fulfillment until either after or close to the time of fulfillment.

    Jesus’ words tell us a few things of interest beyond the obvious which bear on our discussion. His use of the word “καιρoς” in reference to the “times” indicates the duration of those times was fixed, since that is the nuance of that particular Greek word as opposed to “χρονος,” which is much more flexible as to time. The Pastor recognized this aspect of the passage and made note of it in the second volume on page 78.

    A point which directly addresses your question as to “when” is Jesus’ use of the Greek verb πληροω, which has the idea of filling up, or completing, when speaking of the Gentile Times. It is in the Aorist, passive, subjunctive and emphasizes the completion of those times without direct reference to exactly when. The context tells us he is placing the end of those times into the future. But note, it is the ENDING of the gentile times (καιρος) he places in the future, not the entire duration (χρονος) of those times. So what we gather from that is that those times were ongoing in his time.

    You can find more on the subject in the second volume of the Studies In the Scriptures, titled “The Time Is At Hand,” where there is a study devoted to the subject of the Gentile Times from pages 73-102 which you may find quite helpful. If you don’t have that volume you can find it at http://www.mostholyfaith.com/ . Just go to the button “Scripture Studies and then select the volume I cited then a window will appear with the studies, or chapters in the book and simply select study IV.

    I hope you find this information helpful.

    • Tapio Molander

      Dupin, thanks for your response:

      >>Remember, we are dealing with types and antitypes here.

      My approach is more of the Sola Scriptura -kind of attitude and thus I feel unease when applying types and antitypes in instances where this is not specifically encouraged by the Scriptures. Anyhow I tried to center my question to the instance of future tense Jesus used in Luke 21:24. I do not know Greek language at all and therefore I have relied comments like these:

      “Unlike the other tenses in which the time element is not primary, the future tense always
      refers to event in the future.” (Basics of Biblical Greek – William D. Mounce p. 157)

      “Just like the English future tense, the Greek future tells about an anticipated action or a
      certain happening that will occur at some time in the future.”
      http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

      Also I have discussed this with an expert and author of the NT Greek grammar in local language, first of a kind.

      I see no reason not to respect the NT grammar. The future tense rules out the thought of an ongoing process that has had its start hundreds of years ago.

      >>Nebuchadnesser is the obvious type since the decree was fulfilled upon him.

      As I see it presently, this account does not contain any specific reference to future fulfillments. To the contrary, concluding words in Dan. 4:34 sum it all up.

      >>I realize that secular history doesn’t contain a specific record of Nebu’s fall and years of debilitation, but it is doubtful the ruling family would’ve allowed any record of that in the government archives, so we have to rely on Daniel for that record.

      There is no need to even think that ruling family would have had a problem in their hands. The Bible along with secular history has kept Nebu so busy that there is no 7 years gap. Longest time period of not known activities is some 6+ years leading to his death.

      Anyway all these numerous details are less significant to me as long I respect the NT grammar in Luke 21:24 regarding the Gentile times. For example Carl Olof Jonsson have in his “The Gentile Times Reconsidered, Choronology and Christ’s Return” a detailed table of Nebu’s activities, worth of checking (third print 1998 page 254).

      >>You can find more on the subject in the second volume of the Studies In the Scriptures, titled “The Time Is At Hand,” where there is a study devoted to the subject of the Gentile Times from pages 73-102 which you may find quite helpful.

      Starting soon 20 years ago I have already read all the six volumes. As to the pages referred I have several problems (we may have copies of different prints at hand), on page 79 there is a mention of year 606, which will lead to 1915 rather than 1914. Right or wrong, but I have read that this problem of “zero year” error was pointed out (by P.S.L Johnson?) to Russell with no avail.

      On page 80 Russell refers to B.C. 536, relies on secular historians and counts backwards 70 years. However relying historians and counting backwards Babylonian kings and their years in power, poses a problem. One will land nowhere near 606 with Nebu’s 18th or 19th year.

      With that in mind going back to page 73 tells the actual expectation what Russell had for this particular year: “During this interval, the dominion of earth was to be exercised by Gentile governments; and Israel, both fleshly and spiritual, have been and are to be subject to these powers until their time is expired.” Pages 76-77 continue: “In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i. e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A. D. 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.”

      To best of my knowledge nothing has so far changed in regards to this dominion of Gentile governments Russell had in mind. Unfortunately, only considering these details it is obvious that the SS2 is not something I would turn to as a reliable source of information in this matter.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Tapio – Thanks for your comments.  You said, “To best of my knowledge nothing has so far changed in regards to this dominion of Gentile governments Russell had in mind.”

        Keep in mind that at the time of Jesus second presence the conventional wisdom will be that nothing has changed when in fact the old world is falling apart and changes are occurinf in preoaration for the kingdom (Israel, technology, comminication, agriculture, travel, Internet, etc.)

        2 Peter 3:4, 10 (YLT98) “and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;’ and it will come–the day of the Lord–as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.”

        Brother Russell stated he was not a prophet, however it is fair game to see how well he did on interpreting and applying prophecies which he publically promoted.

        I can underdtand if you want to say he was mistaken  for expecting too much to happen in 1914, yet keep in mind that students of the 70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 in Jesus day should be considered considered mistaken as well.  They got the time for Messiah right, but believed He would defeat the Romans and set up the earhly kingdom.  Even the Apostle had these sorts of expectations. (Acts 1:6)

        Just as the 70 Weeks prophecy was correct, even if the disciples over expected the results, so 1914 was correct, even if Brother Russell over expected the results.

        To argue that the 1914 date is wrong, you must take the position that it was a lucky coincidence that:
        *  WW1 broke out
        *  The European kings lost their thrones.
        *  Church / State rule ended
        *  WW1 produced the Balfour Declaration setting aside Palestine as the homeland for the Jews.

        Are you prepared to say that Russell got lucky?

        I would have to say that the evidence points to him as a true prophetic student.

        What about all the other prophetic interpretations he got right like Israel becoming a nation?

        He taught that the Old Testament had a prophecy called the “double.”  With that prophecy we arrive at two key dates:

        1878: Berlin Congress of nations, for first time in nearly 2,000 years allows Jews to purchase land in Israel.  First Jewish Settlement established called Peta Tekvah.

        1948:  Israel becomes a nation.

        Are there any modern day prophets?  If there are, who are the candidates that predicted a future date from Bible Prophecy and got it right?  I don’t know of anyone other than Russell.  I don’t think of him as a prophet myself.  However, for  who call him a false prophet, the evidence points the other direction.

        I am just giving you my opinion Tapio.  However, if you disagree, I hope we can still be friends.

        Peter

        • Tapio Molander

          With due respect Peter, but I feel an urge to return to what I already quoted: “…the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i. e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A. D. 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men”.

          English is not my first language, but I am convinced that both the FULL END and the FARTHEST LIMIT are most definite expressions. And plain cardinal number (1914) was not enough, but precisely any of few first days of October were to be the D-day of THE END of Russell’s Armageddon that was set off 1874. WW1 had already begun earlier that summer.

          Furthermore Russell wrote in the same book (p. 101): “Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A. D. 1878, and that the “battle of the great day of God Almighty ” (Rev. 16: 14.), which will end in A. D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s Word.”

          >>2 Peter 3:4, 10 (YLT98)…

          2 Peter was written quite late and to inspire people (i.e. readers of the original letter) with fresh courage, as the return of Jesus was long overdue.

          >>Brother Russell stated he was not a prophet, however it is fair game to see how well he did on interpreting and applying prophecies which he publically promoted.

          As far as I know none of the dates or predictions came true, I consider him as a typical ambitious preacher.

          >>I can underdtand if you want to say he was mistaken for expecting too much to happen in 1914, yet keep in mind that students of the 70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 in Jesus day should be considered considered mistaken as well.

          There is a problem here. This famous 70 weeks started to gain popularity more than a century after Jesus had been dead and buried. But mistaken, or misled, they were in any case as Jesus promised to return while some of the people that he had addressed this promise, were still alive and kicking.

          >>They got the time for Messiah right, but believed He would defeat the Romans and set up the earhly kingdom. Even the Apostle had these sorts of expectations. (Acts 1:6)

          They lived through their end times in eager expectation, as so many generations after that an presumably even after us. Be it earthly kingdom, but at least they were prepared to meet Jesus midway up somewhere while still alive.

          There is another aspect also. If one does admit that this people got parousia thing wrong, what would that mean as to the reliability of the NT regarding this same parousia?

          >>To argue that the 1914 date is wrong, you must take the position that it was a lucky coincidence that:
          * WW1 broke out

          To start with, originally Russell predicted that Armageddon is over by October 1914, then he changed that to 1915. As far as I understand none of the expectations Russell brought out came true.

          >>* The European kings lost their thrones.

          This is beating around the bush, according to Russell there should have not been a single earthly ruler: “…complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.”

          >>Are you prepared to say that Russell got lucky?

          He was promising and predicting things that did not come true. WW1 was not set off in first days of October 1914.

          >>What about all the other prophetic interpretations he got right like Israel becoming a nation?

          That was a common expectation by that time.

          >>He taught that the Old Testament had a prophecy called the “double.” With that prophecy we arrive at two key dates:

          If I am not badly mistaken year 1874 (in the beginning also 1872 and 1873) was a biblical year representing 6000 years of human existence on earth. In order to achieve that Russell had to alter the Bible chronology by one century. That is one less reason to take for example SITS seriously.

          >>Are there any modern day prophets? If there are, who are the candidates that predicted a future date from Bible Prophecy and got it right? I don’t know of anyone other than Russell.

          My problem is that predicting or prophesy for me is something precise and explicit and argumentation is not circumstantial evidence or circular reasoning.

          >>I am just giving you my opinion Tapio. However, if you disagree, I hope we can still be friends.

          Peter, no problem there

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Tapio -We should note that, in 1904, ten years before 1914, Russell reveresed his earlier conclusion that 1914 was to see the end of the time of trouble, and adopted the conclusion that the end of the Gentile Times would see the beginning of the time of trouble. Thus, from 1904 onward, Russell was not expecting that 1914 would see the full end of the Gentile Kingdoms, and this can be seen in many statements that he made between 1904 and 1914

            • Tapio Molander

              Peter, this all started when I was offered SS2 as a source of information. I do not feel very confident if prophesy or prediction evolves as time goes by and original very exact expectations has to be modified. Foretelling future is not an easy task.

              But anyhow my question and main interest to start writing here lies in verse Luke 21:24 and in future tense. There is no end if we would start comparing our opinions about Russell and his teachings.

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Tapio – In answer to Dupin’s scholarly analysis of the Greek you simply said that Luke 21:24 is in the future tense. You are not clear. Which Greek word or words are you saying are in the Future Tense?

                For reference, here is the verse with some Strong’s #s inserted.

                Luke 12:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be <2071> (5704) trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times <2540> of the Gentiles <1484> be fulfilled <4137> (5686).

                I presume you are referring to the expression, “shall be <2071> (5704)” which in fact is in the future tense. However, you seemed to have missed Dupin’s point. Her was referring to “be fulfilled <4137> (5686)”

                Dupin said, “A point which directly addresses your question as to “when” is Jesus’ use of the Greek verb πληροω [<4137> (5686)], which has the idea of filling up, or completing, when speaking of the Gentile Times. It is in the Aorist, passive, subjunctive and emphasizes the completion of those times without direct reference to exactly when. The context tells us he is placing the end of those times into the future. But note, it is the ENDING of the gentile times <2540> (καιρος) he places in the future, not the entire duration (χρονος) of those times. So what we gather from that is that those times were ongoing in his time.”

                Now the word “times” Strong’s 2540 is the normal prophetic word for the 360 days times as below. (3 ½ x 360 = 1260 prophetic days or actual years)

                Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time <2540>.

                Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time <2540>, and times <2540>, and half a time <2540>, from the face of the serpent.

                So seven of these times (Strong’s 2540) would be 7 x 360 = 2520 prophetic days or actual years. Like you say, “Sola Scriptura.”

                • Tapio Molander

                  >> presume you are referring to the expression, “shall be (5704)” which in fact is in the future tense.

                  Yes, Textus Receptus G2071 or GNT Morph G1510: http://biblesuite.com/greek/estai_1510.htm

                  >> However, you seemed to have missed Dupin’s point. Her was referring to “be fulfilled (5686)”

                  >>Dupin said, “A point which directly addresses your question as to “when” is Jesus’ use of the Greek verb πληροω [ (5686)], which has the idea of filling up, or completing, when speaking of the Gentile Times. It is in the Aorist, passive, subjunctive and emphasizes the completion of those times without direct reference to exactly when. The context tells us he is placing the end of those times into the future. But note, it is the ENDING of the gentile times (καιρος) he places in the future, not the entire duration (χρονος) of those times. So what we gather from that is that those times were ongoing in his time.”

                  Here I have to rely to Wiki

                  In these languages the aorist is usually a form that expresses perfective aspect and often refers to past events. It is thus comparable in meaning to what is called the preterite in grammars of some languages.

                  The perfective aspect (abbreviated PFV), sometimes called the aoristic aspect,[1] is a grammatical aspect used to describe a situation viewed as a simple whole—a unit without internal structure.

                  The preterite (in American English also preterit) is a grammatical tense or verb form existing in various languages, serving to denote events that took place or were completed in the past.

                  In my mind the above does not justify placing a start and a finish about 2500 years apart. Anyhow I have asked a second opinion from a source whose field of expertise this is.

                  >>Now the word “times” Strong’s 2540 is the normal prophetic word for the 360 days times as below. (3 ½ x 360 = 1260 prophetic days or actual years)

                  Daniel uses word iddan:
                  http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5732&t=KJV

                  If I would take this word for a literal calendar year, then my logic would call for a Babylonian calendar as the first candidate. And if the writer of this book meant a literal year, it did not come true.

                  >>Like you say, “Sola Scriptura.”

                  When I apply Sola Scriptura it is not picking and connecting freely from various parts of the Bible. For example this year for a day conversion is mentioned twice in the Bible, Num. 14:34 and Eze. 4:6 and as I see it, both have a specific command only for those instances.

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Tapio, [Subject: 70 Weeks prophecy]

            Here was one of my comments and your response:

            Peter K wrote – I can underdtand if you want to say he was mistaken for expecting too much to happen in 1914, yet keep in mind that students of the 70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 in Jesus day should be considered considered mistaken as well. They got the time for Messiah right, but believed He would defeat the Romans and set up the earhly kingdom. Even the Apostle had these sorts of expectations. (Acts 1:6)

            Tapio wrote – There is a problem here. This famous 70 weeks started to gain popularity more than a century after Jesus had been dead and buried. But mistaken, or misled, they were in any case as Jesus promised to return while some of the people that he had addressed this promise, were still alive and kicking.

            ————–

            My response:

            Daniel 9:24-25 (Amplified) “24 Seventy weeks of years, or 490 years are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city Jerusalem, … 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed One, a Prince, shall be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years;”

            How do you know that “This famous 70 weeks started to gain popularity more than a century after Jesus had been dead and buried”?

            Luke 3:15 (Amplified) “15 ¶ As the people were in suspense {and } waiting expectantly, and everybody reasoned {and } questioned in their hearts concerning John, whether he perhaps might be the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).”

            We never read of another time in the Bible where “the people were… waiting expectantly” for the Messiah. Were the Jews so ignorant that they could not add the years from King Artaxerxes command to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2) to the time of Jesus?

            • Tapio Molander

              >>My response:
              >>Daniel 9:24-25 (Amplified) “24 Seventy weeks of years, or 490 years are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city Jerusalem, … 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed One, a Prince, shall be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years;”

              If I remember right this word mashiyach is found about 40 times in OT and I do not know why I should think that Jesus is meant in those two verses. For me just plain an anointed is closer to the story itself as I am in favor of Daniel being written around 164-163 B.C.E.

              >>How do you know that “This famous 70 weeks started to gain popularity more than a century after Jesus had been dead and buried”?

              It is part of a lengthy sort of summary that starts with these words: “I would like to point out that the Society’s interpretation is an Adventist variant of the late Christian interpretation (and reworking of the text) that has been in vogue since the third century AD onward.”

              And ends with these words: “If you examine most major Bible commentaries (such as by Montgomery, Charles, Collins, Gowan, Goldingay, Hartman & DiLella, Porteous, Lacocque, etc.), you would find a similar explanation of the “70 weeks” as given here.”

              >>We never read of another time in the Bible where “the people were… waiting expectantly” for the Messiah.

              To me it looks like just choice of words for one single occasion.

              >>Were the Jews so ignorant that they could not add the years from King Artaxerxes command to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2) to the time of Jesus?

              Difficult to say of that old folk, anyhow the Bible contains also numerical errors. Previous major expectation was during previous end time around 164 B.C.E.

              >>Doesn’t the book of Daniel tell us that we would understand time prophecy at the time of the end?

              Yes, it says, and this time of the end was around 164 B.C.E. And talking about the end times in the Bible, next end time was soon after the death of Jesus, when people expected to be taken alive midway to meet returning Jesus.

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Tapio,

                I have done tit for tat debates before. In our case, I am sure you will have your own answer for any argument I bring. So I will take a different approach.

                Let me summarize what I have concluded that relates to our discussion. Prophecy is best understood once fulfilled. Hence, although the 70 weeks prophecy pointed to Messiah, prophetic students, including the Apostles, over expected the results, including the defeat of the Romans and the setting up of the early kingdom. Brother Russell amazingly predicted some of the most significant dates in history:

                1878 – Return of Favor to Israel. First Jewish settlement (Petah Tikva) established.
                1914 – WWI began, which as a result, 1) church/state rule broken, 2) kings lost thrones, 3) break up of Europeon colonies – completed in WW2 and 4) the war led to Balfour Declaration promising Palestine as a homeland for the Jews.
                1948 – Israel becomes a nation (second fulfillment of “Israel’s Double” prophecy)

                Not only has the Lord provided Time Prophecies to pinpoint the Days we are in, however, He has also provided many signs, the most simple of which to understand are found in Daniel 12.

                According to Daniel 12, at the Time of the End when Michael stands up the following will be in process:
                * Knowledge increased (technology, science, etc)
                * Travel increased (cars, planes, etc.)
                * Great Time of Trouble (trouble intertwined globally for first time in history – i.e. WWI & WWII, economy, Terrorism, etc.)
                * Israel Delivered (now restored to land and a nation)
                * Book of Daniel unsealed (volume 3 of studies in the scriptures)

                Now Tapio, I realize that all this means nothing to you. I know you can answer each point to your satisfaction. These fulfilments satisfy me. Once a prophecy is fulfilled, what would it take to convince you of it?

                2 Pet 3:10 (Rotherham) “Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,––in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered.”

                Jesus said, “nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light” (Luke 8:17). Satan is the prince of darkness. Can you see with the 24 hours news cycle, the Internet, WikiLeaks, etc. that truth is being “discovered” and Satan’s kingdom is crumbling under the increasing light?

                Initially, Jesus presence is in secret to the world, like a “theif in the night.” So let us not be like those who say, “Where is the promise of his presence? For, since the fathers fell asleep, all things, thus remain, from the beginning of creation” (2 Pet 3:4 Rotherham).

                Here is the bottom line. The whole world is changing around us (i.e. Daniel signs). What is causing these changes?

                1) God and or Jesus (destroying Satan’s kingdom and setting the infrastructure in place for the new kingdom).
                2) Satan (to what end?)
                3) Man’s ingenuity. Timing is a mere coincidence. God has nothing to do with it.
                4) Other. What?

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Tapio, [Israel prophecies]

            Peter wrote – What about all the other prophetic interpretations he got right like Israel becoming a nation? He taught that the Old Testament had a prophecy called the “double.” With that prophecy we arrive at two key dates:

            1878: Berlin Congress of nations, for first time in nearly 2,000 years allows Jews to purchase land in Israel. First Jewish Settlement established called Peta Tekvah.

            1948: Israel becomes a nation.

            Tapio wrote – If I am not badly mistaken year 1874 (in the beginning also 1872 and 1873) was a biblical year representing 6000 years of human existence on earth. In order to achieve that Russell had to alter the Bible chronology by one century. That is one less reason to take for example SITS seriously.

            ————

            My response: Okay so Russell got 1878, 1914 and 1948 correct. And your response is simply, “My problem is that predicting or prophesy for me is something precise and explicit and argumentation is not circumstantial evidence or circular reasoning.”

            Who else predicted future dates like this and got it right? Are you saying that the 70 weeks time prophecy is an anomaly (the only time prophecy) and that we cannot use other time prophecies to verify now historical events predicted by the Bible?

            Daniel 12:9-12 (RVIC) “9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end… 10 … none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand… 11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred thirty-five days.”

            Doesn’t the book of Daniel tell us that we would understand time prophecy at the time of the end?

            • Tapio Molander

              >>My response: Okay so Russell got 1878, 1914 and 1948 correct.

              Our difference is in the definition of a prediction, thus it is fruitless to start arguing over those dates.

              >>Who else predicted future dates like this and got it right?

              Number of people, depending what constitutes a prediction.

              >>Are you saying that the 70 weeks time prophecy is an anomaly (the only time prophecy)…

              To me 70 weeks is not prediction, but backdated and thus so called prophesy.

              >>…and that we cannot use other time prophecies to verify now historical events predicted by the Bible?

              I am asking questions and backing up my opinions, not telling anybody to take it as an error free and eternal truth.

              >>Doesn’t the book of Daniel tell us that we would understand time prophecy at the time of the end?

              My problem is to fail to understand the need for ongoing end time. Maccabeans had it, first century Christians had it again, then Montanists…Luther…Russell…F. Franz…and so on.

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Tapio – Thanks for the various responses. I want to hold off for a while and wait. Let’s let others weigh in on these discussions and see what scriptural reasoning they have to offer. Hopefully we will hear from others soon, otherwise I will respond in the next day or two.

              • Jacqueline

                Hi Tapio Molander, I have followed the conversation and have learned quite a bit. You know sometimes we have to look a little deeper and ask if my faith hinges on the dates or as Br. Peter branched out into some of the overall justifications from the scriptures that we are in an information age and it is different. That we do see prophecies being fulfilled today in Israel. I personally don’t believe inaccurate religious systems have completely fallen yet but when you see an organization selling off all of it’s assets worldwide and it carries the name and house of God on it, it makes you wonder if something has begun to happen in a seeable way for all to notice.
                When you mention that you have asked about this with some more brothers ,before coming here, it makes me wonder if there isn’t a little deeper question for it is useless to go tic for tat on exact dates. A person has to decide in this regard as to what they see as the answer. That is the freedom and liberty in Christ that Bible Students and the early Christians had as it is not a salvation issue.
                What is you religion, if I might ask? I am looking for a common ground. I think more might like to dialogue with you also as they are looking on. We don’t have all the answers but like you we are digging and willing to tackle the “DEEP THINGS of God.”. How did you arrive on this site? We’d love to hear your story as it might encourage another. Sincerely Jacqueline

    • Mykel

      The 360 day year discrepancy in calculating the “Appointed Time of the Nations”
      Daniel 4:23 – Seven Times
      Daniel 4:34 – Seven Days
      Numbers 14:34.  }
      Ezekiel 4:6.           }        – A day for a year
      Jerusalem destroyed – 607 B.C.E.
      Insight on the Scriptures by the Watchtower 1988, p. 135, vol. 1, vaguely claims that 1 year = 360 days, but does not graphically explain how 7 Times is 7 Years x 360 days for 2520 Days. But rather takes a convoluted detour into the book of Revelation 12:6, 14 to explain how
      3 1/2 Times = 1,260 Days
      3 1/2 Times + 3 1/2 Times = 7 Times
      1,260 Days + 1,260 Days = 2520 Days
      But, it does not change the fact that
      1,260 / 3.5 = 360
      However, C. T. Russell Photo Drama p. 50 clearly and graphically explain how 7 Times is 7 Years x 360 days for 2520 Days, but also claim that it is based on the Lunar calendar.
      7 x 360 days = 2520 Years – 607 B.C.E. ~ 1914 (World War I – as End of Gentile Times a.k.a. Appointed Time of the Nations)
      In both the book of Daniel and Revelation – 1 year = 360 days
      However, a year is really 365.25 days, according to the current calendar, even the ancient Egyptian calendar. In the Hebrew lunar calendar a year varies 353, 354 or 355 days with a 13th month during leap years. The Lunar calendar month is 29.531 days x 12 = 354.372 days.
      So, why is a Bible year 360 days?

      Since 360 days originates with 360 degrees, I thought it might be related to the Babylonian number system of 60 units. “They assumed a sexagesimal unit, the number of the seconds of the day: 60 x 60 x 24; 86,400 units”. – The Jewish Encyclopedia , Chronology p.66. However, there was no explanation of how that adds up to 360 days per year. Although, 24 hours x 360 days = 8,640 hours, interesting but meaningless. Except, a search on the Internet explains any assumption of 30 days per month x 12 months = 360 days, for which most of the ancient civilizations had initially made that mistake and later corrected by direct observation of the stars. But, they still wonder why most ancient civilizations kept making the same mistake. So, again, why is a Bible year 360 days? Unless maybe it is not important in regards to prophecy. In that respect, it might be possible that most civilization made that same mistake because they were influenced by the Bible record of Genesis. The information on the Internet points out the dates calculated from the Flood story of Genesis chapter 7 and 8, assumes 30 days per month. This seems to be a tell-tail sign that all these civilizations once had the Genesis record in common knowledge; confirming the Tower of Babel story, and implying that it predates the Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations. If that is true, I would have to conclude that, there was no mistake, but that the Flood had a drastic change in the earth’s orbit that changed the length of a year by 5.25 days more into a elliptical orbit.

      http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html
      http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/360-days-earth-year.html
      http://www.examiner.com/article/360-day-year-no-coincidence

      This is a perfect example of my disappointment with religions; instead of facing the truth of certain discrepancies in the Bible with an eye or disposition to earnestly find the reason for the discrepancies, religion only seek to ignore or hide the discrepancies.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Mykel – Thanks for commenting. If you want to find confirmation of the Bible in prophecy, history, archeology and science, you will certainly find it. We have spent time responding to hundred of supposed contradictions in the Bible. The real issues are disappointment in man made religions and not wanting to give up the right to do whatever feels good and rather to obey a God of moral rules.

        On what page does the PhotoDrama of Creation say the Bible year is a lunar year? I think you may be mistaken.

        You said, “dates calculated from the Flood story of Genesis chapter 7 and 8, assumes 30 days per month.” How can you demonstrate this from the Bible?

        You are confusing a prophetic year with a year. Clearly the prophetic Biblical year is 360 days long. 3 1/2 times = 42 months = 1260 days. These three (3 1/2 times, 42 months, & 1260 days) are mentioned about seven times combined in the books of Daniel and Revelation and establish the length of the prophetic year. This has nothing to do with the actual solar year / Bible year.

        • Mykel

          But the Bible also implies a 360 day year – before and during the Global Flood. Genesis 7:11 says the Flood began

          in the 600th year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month

          Genesis 7:24 says the Flood waters covered the earth for 150 days. Genesis 8:3 repeats that. Then Genesis 8:4 says Noah’s Ark ran aground on the seventeenth day of the seventh month.

          That implies Noah and his sons (who kept the log of the Ark during its “cruise”) were used to a 360 day year of 12 months, with 30 days for a month.

          http://www.examiner.com/article/360-day-year-no-coincidence

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Mykel -The Hebrew calendar is a lunisolar calendar, meaning that months are based on lunar months, but years are based on solar years. The calendar year features twelve lunar months of twenty-nine or thirty days, with an intercalary lunar month added periodically to synchronize the twelve lunar cycles with the longer solar year. These extra months are added seven times every nineteen years.

            We don’t really have much information on pre-flood calender calculations. Perhaps Noah worked with a 30 day cycle and made an annual adjustment to tie back to the solar year. I am not really sure. Why does it matter?

        • Mykel

          I’m not “confusing a prophetic year with a year”, I’m just questioning why should a prophetic year be different from a calendar year. Unless we should be satisfied that “creationists posit a 360 day year only because the arithmetic is easier”. In which case we be satisfied with a 24 hour day creation also. However, I believe that digging deeper produces more satisfying results.

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Mykel – A prophetic year is simply different than a calendar year. It would not be practical for a prophetic year to be 365.242 days long as this would make prophetic calculations unecessarily complex. For example 42 months x 30 days = 1260 days isv simple to understand.

            The real issue hear is that you do not believe Jehovah to be a true God. If you want to put God to the test with science, I am all for it. Do you believe there is NO Creator and NO Intelligent Design? Do you believe life evolved? By what mechanism? Mutations?

            By the way, the Hebrew word for “day” in Genesis is not describing a 24 hour day.

            Are you a former JW?

            • Mykel

              This is incredible! I thought Jehovah’s Witnesses would be so narrow minded to consider me an apostate for my research. But from a Bible Student and an Admin? I am an active member of Jehovah’s Witnesses. And my research has just confirmed the Genesis record as older than the Egyptian, Sumerian an Babylonian civilization. And confirm the Tower of Babel event. But you think I don’t Believe in Jehovah God because I pointed out the Pastor Russell mistakenly refereed 360 as from the lunar calendar. OK, just please bar me from this site for now on.

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Mykel – I am sorry for a mis-communication. You are of course entitled to your honest opinion. I was asking for the specific citation where Br. Russell tied 360 to the lunar calendar so I could read it for myself. Actually now I am not really sure what your point was. Obviously he did not believe there were only 360 days in a year (except in a prophetic year).

                I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought you were attempting to disprove the Bible by showing that it cannot even correctly indicate the number of days in a year, but upon reading your comments again I can see how I misunderstood. This was NOT in regard to your reference to Br. Russell.

                Do you have a research paper summarizing your findings to show that the Genesis account is older and confirming the Tower of Babel? This sounds interesting.

                Perhaps you can summarize the point you are making. Thanks.

                • Mykel

                  QUOTE:
                  “That lease of power to rule the world as best as they could was to last for ‘seven times’-seven symbolic years, each day of which (lunar time) would represent a year.”
                  http://www.biblestudents.com/photodrama.html

                  C. T. Russell Photo Drama – PAGE 50

                  Does mean he believes in a propetic year

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Mykel,

                    Thanks for your interesting question and your studies on days, months and years. I confess that I had some questions myself, so I went to other Bible Student elders to see what they had to say.

                    What amazes me is the contrast, how I can go to other Bible Students for help and get comments from Elders who can honestly discuss a challenging topic with each other with Christian Liberty and honest investigation and without a governing organization ready to punish us if we step out of line.

                    Here is the discussion so far.

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM PETER K TO ELDERS

                    Does anyone understand why Br. Russell connects lunar time to the seven times?

                    “That lease of power to rule the world as best as they could was to last for ‘seven times’-seven symbolic years, each day of which (lunar time) would represent a year.”
                    http://www.biblestudents.com/photodrama.html

                    C. T. Russell Photo Drama – PAGE 50

                    Since the solar year is 365 days long but a moon year is only 354 days (29.5 x 12), an extra month is added to the Hebrew calendar every two or three years. The formula is a bit esoteric, but every 19 years there are seven leap years (the third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth and nineteenth years).

                    Not sure why Br. Russell references lunar tume?

                    Br. Peter

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM RIC CUNNINGHAM

                    To my humble understanding, CTR uses Lunar time (360 days in a year – in the scriptures concerning the Flood as recorded in Genesis, we can compute that there were 12, 30 day months in the year, regardless of what adjustments would need to be made), in all of the prophetic or symbolic calculations.

                    Hence, 7 x 360 = 2,520 actual years.

                    In other words, we use a symbolic numbering formula to arrive at the proper (God intended), number of literal (Solar reckoned), years.

                    As an interesting side note: 7 x 365 = 2,555. Hence, 607 B.C. + 2,555 years = 1948 A.D.

                    Ric

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM JERRY LESLIE

                    Brother Peter and all, I am in accord with Ric’s notes below.
                    I will only add that using that parenthesis “(lunar time)”, that Brother Russell was not attempting to micro analyze or designate the technical aspects of the lunar cycles designated either as: anomalistic, sidereal, tropical, draconic or synodic. The cycle is generally designated as 29.530589 days. There is no even cycle relation with the solar year with also is not exactly 365 days. It is this relationship that makes the Hebrew calendar rather complex.

                    Well as the lunar month may be “rounded” to an even 30 days of 12 months = 360 days, I think Brother Russell was just alluding to an “ideal” month and year as we might also see the a perfect circle of 360 degrees. This also agrees with the Genesis 7:11 and 8:4 that there were just 150 days between month 2 day 17 and month 7 day 17, indicating 30 day months X 5 = 150 days. The deduction being that before the deluge there was a 30 day calendar/month. See the chart at:
                    http://www.biblestudentarchives.com/documents/FloodYear.pdf

                    Now as an aside, there is a rather interesting web site at:
                    http://blog.world-mysteries.com/science/360-days-ancient-calendar/
                    with some useful historical notations. Lengthy, but some sections worth noting.

                    Br Jerry

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM JIM PARKINSON

                    In time past I looked into the possibility that before the Flood the number of days in a year might have been exactly 360 days, and that lunations might have been exactly 30 days. The two possibilities for the former would be that the earth was 1.0% closer to the Sun, or that the earth had rotated 1.45% slower before the Flood, or some combination of the two. It would take a collision with a large comet or asteroid to cause either change.

                    A calculation of the energy to increase the rotation rate of the Earth from a 360-day year to a 365.24219-day year is equivalent to a bit more than a million million (a trillion) “garden variety” H-bombs. And if something connected to the flood changed the Earth orbit around the Sun from a 360-day year to a 365.24219-day year (that is, increased the distance from the Sun by about 1%), the energy would be that of around a million billion H-bombs (each of which would be around 300 times each A-bomb dropped on Japan: Hiroshima or Nagasaki). [Divide these numbers by about a factor of ten to get the number of largest-ever (58 MT, Soviet) H-bombs.]

                    The possibility that an asteroid colliding with the Moon to speed up the lunation time seems to be dispelled by pictures of the far side of the Moon, which show no such enormous recent crater. Also, I think there is no evidence yet found of such a crater in the Pacific Ocean. (I don’t know if the Gulf of Mexico or the Hudson Bay would be large enough to do the trick.)

                    I therefore think before the Flood also they must have observed “epagomenal” [“following”] days (those following 360 days to make up the full year, according to the Sun’s return to the same location in the celestial sphere), usually five, sometimes six, days.

                    Epagomenal days or not, we should still reckon prophetic years according to 360 days. And it is better not to refer to them as “lunar years,” as that usually is taken to mean 354-day “years.”

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM JERRY LESLIE

                    Dear Brother Jim and all:

                    While highly unqualified to evaluate the geometry and mathematics of these things, yet the subject is rather interesting for me.
                    On the one hand I could just defer to those better informed. On the other hand I would like to just ask or propose some thoughts from my neophyte perspective.

                    First I would not try to justify an “impact theory” for a 5 day increase in annular rotation of the earth as proposed at:
                    http://blog.world-mysteries.com/science/360-days-ancient-calendar/

                    Yet I found the Herodotus evidence for a 360 day year cited in that article about 1/3 down as: “360 day calendar mentioned in the Histories by Herodotus” rather interesting and would confirm the Genesis 7-8 counting. Then I noted these 2 articles:

                    http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/360-days.html

                    http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/360-days-year-earth.html

                    While I was mostly lost in all the numbers, this I do understand this: A ball of one mass of a particular equatorial circumference (or diameter) will spin somewhat faster than the same ball and same mass with a larger circumference.

                    We know that before the deluge there were dense “waters above the firmament.” In other words some of the materials that compose this earth were extended outward.

                    Would the phenomena of the deluge of descending waters inward toward the center and surface of the earth so compress the diameter or equatorial circumference of the same mass sufficiently to increase the rotation speed by 5 days in a yearly solar circuit??

                    A simple question for my simple mind! But maybe the answer is too complex.

                    Br Jerry

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM ALLEN SPRINGER

                    A simple answer from a simple mind: The descent of water in Noah’s Flood would be like an ice-skater drawing in his/her arms during a spin. It would increase the rate of spin (angular momentum / kinetic energy). I believe that the solar year was 360 days exactly prior to the Flood.

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM JIM PARKINSON

                    Bro. Allen has the qualitative physics right. Angular momentum must be conserved (in the absence of a foreign body). The scale height of the atmosphere (the thickness of the air if it all were at the density near the surface) is 8 km today. That compares to an equatorial Earth radius of 6378.137 km. If all the water in the oceans were to uniformly cover the Earth’s surface, I have read that it would be over a mile thick; let us assume 2 km. If all that water were heaved to 8 km altitude, it would represent only about a 0.1% change in angular rotation rate (ignoring the solid earth beneath it). [Atmospheric pressure at the surface, due to the water, would be increased by about 25%, which might be hard on animal life.]

                    For an Earth surface area of 510 million square kilometers, the water mass would be 1E18 cubic meters, or 1E21 kg. But the Earth is 5.976E24 kg, or about 6,000 times the mass of water. So the collapsing of all the water from an 8 km altitude would increase the rotation rate of Earth by less than 0.2 part per million.

                    Try as I may over the past several decades, I have failed to find a credible mechanism for projecting back to a 360-day year without extra “epigomenal” days. Perhaps someone else is wiser than I. Bro. Jim

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM ALLEN SPRINGER

                    Thanks Brother Jim…

                    According to the Bible, the water was not IN the atmosphere, but OUTSIDE the atmosphere, and would have been in the form of ice. This is what formed the polar ice caps. The approximate quantity would have been at least 12 million cubic miles of water, or more than 50 million cubic kilometers of water, based on a rise in ocean levels of roughly 450 feet, or about 140 meters. As for high atmospheric pressure, experiments in Japan and elsewhere have proven this to be a boon to life, and not a bane. Some medical treatments use a hyperbaric chamber with pressure at 3 times normal. I am not skilled enough to figure out what distance the ice “canopy” had to be from earth to increase angular momentum by 1.44% or thereabout. Could you tell me if this scenario is more of a scientific possibility?

                    In hope,
                    br. allen

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM JIM PARKINGSON

                    Dear Bro. Allen,

                    The surface area of the Earth is 510 million square kilometers. But let us optimistically take 140 meters as the effective thickness of solid ice equivalent. The “waters above” cannot be held up by a vacuum; so the effective air thickness of 8 km would be the maximum realistic distance above Earth’s surface. I had (non-credibly) assumed 2 km of water at an altitude of 8 km. So 140 meter = 7% of the effect I previously calculated. (Excel spreadsheet to anyone on request.) Angular momentum is conserved, but angular velocity (rotational velocity here) is not.

                    A linear calculation would suggest that the 140 meters of water/ice would need to be a million times higher, or 8 million km, which is roughly 2.5 times farther away than the Moon is. So I am still looking for a mechanism to have increased the Earth’s rotational velocity by about 1.44%. (Incidentally, if the pre-Flood Earth had rotated slower, it would have shortened the number of days in a year, but also the number of days in the average lunation; and the latter is in the unwanted direction. A linear calculation is not valid, but gives some idea of what would be needed. Lengthening the number of days in a year, while shortening the lunation time, is a hard combination.)

                    As an aside, I have even considered a couple of ridiculous postulates. If all the solar irradiance could have been concentrated on the sunset edge of the Earth, and always stopped/absorbed by a black surface there, it would take 327 years to increase the rotational speed of the Earth from 360 days/year to 365.24219 days/year. Not a credible mechanism.

                    Have even considered the possibility of volcanoes erupting to escape velocity – acting like a rocket – in a way that would increase the Earth orbit by 1%. But expelling roughly 1% of the Earth’s mass from the mantle would likely have created catastrophic earthquakes for centuries. (I haven’t tried putting numbers on this one, at least not yet. As you can deduce, I am getting pretty desperate for credible mechanisms, short of total miracle.)

                    ——————————————-

                    FROM RIC CUNNINGHAM

                    A comment was made about the propriety of using the term “lunar year”.

                    We think that this phrase is appropriate for Bible study and biblical explanations of time prophecy and related.

                    It was the LORD that instructed Israel to count the beginning of their months with the appearance of each new moon (Nums. 28:11 and Ezra 3:5 as examples). This is further emphasized by the Hebrews starting their days with the evening. The addition of either a thirteenth month or days would bring the necessary adjustment, from time to time, of the year back into sync with the Barley Harvest and First Fruits offering at the beginning of their year as outlined in Lev. 23:1-16.

                    Ric

                    ——————————————-

                    If there are additional comments, I will post a follow-up in a few days.

                    • Cazenovi (Bible Student)

                      Peter – Was this resolved or any additional thoughts? I am curious.
                      Thanks.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Cazenovi – Christian liberty permits us to dialoguelyn love even when we disagree. I am very satisfied in my own mind of the significance of 1914, however others differ and these matters can never be fully proven and resolved until the kingdom is fully established. For now, we can only be fully convince in our own mind, when guided by the Holy Spirit, honesty, deep personal study of the scriptures and a clear conscience.

    • Though I feel the problem lay in Jerusalem being timed for a GENTILE time, it would not mean Babylon could not actually mark 607 in Neb’s crown-prince-to-king period and thus be a GENTILE TIME, and still retain the 607-1914 connect.

      Thus the JW problem is not chronological it is situational, it is a problem of the event that marks 607 BCE, a time/event error.

      But putting all that distraction aside 1914 also ignited another “seven times” whose first 1260 days transpired in 1914-1918. But because there are TWO “witnesses” of divine warning a final 1260 days of the future will then complete 2520 days of the Revelation 11 “little scroll” sovereign warning and ultimatum of God’s Kingdom.

      Revelation 11’s “time, times and half a time” is not a hanging incomplete 3.5 times, because there are two witnesings it has to complete as seven times of final sovereign warning in the future final warning of also 1260 days.

      That it began those final “seven times” in 1914 is no accident.

      Just something to consider well before that final warning emerges from the Daniel 8:13-14 JW organizational desolation and temple judgment of the near future, which is preparatory towards the final 1260 days it will eventually lead to in JW recovery for final warning purposes.

      That is why it says this at Revelation 10:11, where the “again” is the final warnign command of God:

      (Revelation 10:11) And they say to me: “You must prophesy AGAIN with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

  • Tapio Molander

    While a witness I felt that 1914 proofs were water tight and rock solid. When I afterwards started digging deeper I encountered more and more problems. I totally lost logical connection in between the Gentile times and Nebu’s 7 times, my foremost obstacle being the future tempus used in Luke 21:24. This will place the start of this Gentile times somewhere after Jesus said those words.

    There are several other reasons why I fail to understand why these 7 years would carry any additional meaning besides biblically famous “complete”. The Bible and history do not allow Nebu to have that long period for “sick leave”. Nothing in Daniel’s account will indicate that this 7 year period carries any larger meaning besides what is written therein.

    Witnesses do not discuss this with me, one elder (a friend from childhood) promised to discuss this with me after I return to organization. Another elder (I spent years in prison with for national service refusal) did not reply my letter at all. One rank and file witness told me that it is so tough food that it is not possible to discuss about it. During all these years only one witness took my questions seriously, returned and said that there is no biblical answer for the questions I posed.

    That is where I am with the year 1914 and The Bible.

    • Jacqueline

      Hello Tapio Molander and welcome. One of the Brothers will get to you on this. We need to let them know what the witnesses believe on this subject of what 1914 meant for them.
      But, you mentioned you spent time in prison for conscientious objection, I would like to acknowledge that was difficult and glad that experience is over. I think you present some interesting points and many witnesses have grappled with them, so the conversation should be enlightening. Jacqueline

    • hank

      Num. 34:14—–Eze. 4:6———-Dan. 4:16,23,25, 32.——–Luke 21:24—————Rev. 11:2,3; 12:6,14

      Does it look like it began in 1914 when historians say, the world has not been the same since. And the news show bad whether in every state and getting worse.

      When will Jehovah bring it to an end? Soon, very soon! Don’t be caught naked Rev. 16:15.

      Wear your robe. Rev. 7:9-17

      Proverbs says something about a righteous one falling 7 times, but keeps getting up.

      Ironic you fall over the seven times.

    • Dear Tapio
      If you would like to discuss this subject please write me an email at info@biblestudents.se

      Kent

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