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The Watchtower Society: The Channel of God?

For decades Charles Taze Russell’s legacy has been associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses in published accounts that inaccurately list him as their founder. In 1997, Professor David S. Doran corrected the matter by writing the editor of The Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia and delivering a more accurate account of Brother Charles Taze Russell’s life. Through Professor Doran’s efforts, the second edition presenting the truth was published in 1998 and reflects these changes. We quote as follows:

“Russell, Charles Taze , known as Pastor Russell (1852-1916). Religious leader, founder of what is commonly called the “Bible Student Movement,” born in Pittsburgh, PA. As a Congregationalist, he struggled with the concept of eternal torment, his subsequent studies leading him to conclude that the Biblical hell is oblivion, that the millennium began in 1874, and that a period of social and political upheaval would lead to a peaceable kingdom on earth. After his death, many followers abandoned his Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (1879), which under the leadership of Joseph Rutherford moved in other directions and ultimately — became known as Jehovah’s Witnesses (1931).” — Bible Students Newsletter, p. 7, Spring, 1999

171 comments to The Watchtower Society: The Channel of God?

  • Stan

    Simon, that is a good thing that you want to become a Bible Student and go for the prize. But let me tell you a game plan, like the Divine Plan.

    Once upon a time a young man in his twenties from Gary was on the verge of suicide. He was a follower of Herbert Armstrong. They studied the Bible a lot. But you can see it was not working for him. So he got involved with the Bible Students. He studied hard and finally new God’s name and didn’t call him the Eternal anymore, but his previous studies were forming a sticky cobweb. He would be told this is what that means and sometimes understood, but then other times was stuck to the old. Things like Jesus killed on a Wednesday and in the grave a literal 72 hours tot the second. And other things.

    Eventually he just quit studying the Bible and got involved with the everyday life. The good side, was that the Bible Students may have saved his life.

    This is part of the game plan. To show you how hard it is going to be. Check around and see how many ex jw,s there are who are digging into the six volumes. Best of wishes , don’t give up, fight hard.

  • Stan

    Bret, everyone here appreciates your desire to be a Bible Student. But think of your reasoning, you heard it at a convention. Judge Rutherford took over in 1917. Lets say you were at a convention and a representative told the group that the studies are being done away with.

    Well it wasn’t to many years later and 50 to 60 who went through that broke away and started the Chicago Bible Students and continue diligently in the studies to this day. Now if Russell and all the4 faithful who died before him and after him used those, you certainly wouldn’t say Russell didn’t make would you?

    Then why would not these faithful Chicago Bible Students make it?

    I feel that those who fall short of that will be the underachievers who go to heaven and serve the bride class. But they must strive hard to get that also.
    So continue to push hard for the prize.

    • Bret (B.S.)

      Stan;
      I think you went a little out in left field with that one and your comparisons… Judge Rutherford and his teachings? There is a difference in Russell in that he did not insist we was absolute about every one of his teachings nor did he demand anyones conscience to lean to his opinions..
      I base mine off of understanding of scriptures balanced and weighed completely upon them and not what is necesarily in someones book explaining…
      Russell clearly got some things incorrect and I believe he was humble enough to admit to it..
      I base my understanding of Hebrews 10:26-30 on the fact that Paul was quoting a judgment day text not to mention the context of the entire book of Hebrews as well as a simple comparison with other scriptures.

      Stan do you realize that some in the Bible Student community believe we have entered in to the millenium already, while others do not think so and yet they all meet together at conventions and speak openly one way or another…
      Stan there is Christian Liberty among the Bible Students and that is something that Russell as well respected

      • Bret (B.S)

        I think Matt 24:23-25 applies to Rutherford and his teachings! He was a false Christ trying to replace Jesus as head of the Church… By saying salvation is through the Watchtower channel… And Im happy those Bible Students of that day woke up and got as far as they could from him and his developing cult…
        Stan this is what the scriptures say about knowledge and I believe it applies to all men Russell included 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away!

  • Stan

    Simon and Bret.

    I think you may have Bible Students mixed up with people who individually study the Bible. Why is that? If you take the time to throw your explanations of Mr. Russell being wrong on Hebrews 6 and 10, and that he puts in inaccurate information on it in Vol. VI., and you ask the Chicago and Associated Bible Students. I think you will be surprised.

    And if you attend a convention and start telling the sisters I think you will be surprised. Now I don’t think either of you would want to go there and be silent on your beliefs. That is not freedom to discuss. On the other hand to change VI., that would be doing what Rutherford did.

    On the other hand if all or most of the Bible Students agreed that it is new understanding and that the faithful steward was wrong. Then you might have something.
    But there are to many old diehards out there to ever even come close to that.
    In the future, a few comments from the brethren will be shared so be patience.

    • Simon

      Hi Stan
      Thanks for the input, im sincerely interested in what comments will be made.

      Sincere Rgds
      S.

    • Bret

      Stan,

      I listened to a talk given at the 2011 Grand Rapids convention by a brother that gives an explanation of Hebrews 6, and 10 differently than Brother Russell. And the brother explained that second death is not possible in this age. So Stan I wouldn’t be the first..

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Brett,

        Would you like to have a discussion on Hebrews 6, 10 and any other scriptures relating to the second death?

        • Bret (B.S)

          Peter, certainly I am open to any discussions..

          • Bret (B.S)

            Peter,
            Please clarify for me your view of who if any have already experienced second death or who is it that have been made subject to it?
            If I may say that I believe most Bible Students view that only Spirit begotten Christians who have left the Christ as well as committed certain sins are the ones that have died absecond death?
            Are their others perhaps that I am missing?

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Brett,

              Thanks for a nice recap of the Bible Student view. I will elaborate further.

              I believe that every person must at some point face eternal judgment. (Eccl 12:14; Romans 14:10-12)

              Fortunately, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” I Timothy 2:4 NKJV

              The spirit begotten New Creation are on Trial for life during this Gospel Age. (Heb 10:28-29; 1 John 5:16)

              The world of mankind will be on trial for life in the early kingdom (Acts 17:31; Matt 25:46)

              Basically, the idea is that ultimately every person will be on trial for life at some point in time.
              1) Only the Holy Spirit begotten New Creation are on trial for life since Pentecost.
              2) Mankind in the kingdom will be on trial for life, after God’s spirit is poured on all flesh, particularly during the little season, after the 1,000 years.

              Mark 3:28-29 (NKJV) “28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 “but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation””

              The same test as on Adam – the test of obedience will determine eternal life or eternal destruction for all.

              For the sake of argument, let’s say these conclusions are wrong and that no one will ever be eternally destroyed. If so, what of those who choose evil and refuse to follow righteousness. How can God force them without violating free choice and turning them into obedient robots? Will God allow the wicked and incorrigible to live forever? How will the rest of creation be protected from them?

              Any other alternatives? Do you believe eternal destruction applies to anyone? If so, to whom and when?

              • Bret (B.S.)

                Thanks Peter,
                In the middle of busy work week.. I will reply by weekend…

                • Bret (B.S)

                  Peter,
                  I was looking over your questions and to be fair, I dont think a single one of those questions apply to me or my scriptural view….
                  I would say the only place I differ from your view and understanding is in regards to the New Creation being on trial now…

                  I believe I have an explanation for Pauls words to the Hebrews in chapter 6 and 10, and that he was not saying that those Hebrew Christians who were being Judaized back into the Law would die a second death with no resurrection… I believe ALL evil doers unfaithful spirit begotten as well will be resurrected to the day of Judgment… That is into the earthly peacable kingdom of christ…
                  With regards to Jesus statement to the Pharisees with regards to no forgiveness if sinning against the holy spirit I believe Jesus was speaking a Hyperbole “exaggerated statement or claims not meant to be taken literally” but was indicating the unlikelyness of their repentance during that 1,000 yrs..

                  I will go into deeper detail on both text this weekend..

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Brett,

                    Thanks. I know you have more to say on this and there is no rush.

                    So let’s consider whether the New Creation is now trial for life, with Second Death as a possibility.

                    Under my view, YES.

                    Under your view, NO, they will have an opportunity to repent, become righteous and live forever in the kingdom.

                    Your view is certainly shared by others. I find your view appealing in that among the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the danger and threat of Second Death, whether now or in Armageddon, is a weapon of fear to help destroy Christian Liberty and keep JWs under control and obedience to the JW Organization. So yes, from that perspective I like your view. However, in the end, we must submit to Bible teaching and try to understand why the scriptures teach what they do.

                    In my view, Second Death is not based on a slip up or a mistake or an sinful act later regretted. It is based on a deliberate, consistent and repetitive decision to turn against Christ. It is a desire to willfully and selfishly pursue evil without feelings of regret. Such people were baptized into Christ’s body and received the Holy Spirit. They made a 180 degree turn. These are not New Creatures with mental illness, which prevents their ability to make sound moral judgements. These are so far turned to evil that if they were resurrected to the earthly Kingdom for another trial, there would be amount of effort that could ever turn them back to righteousness. Now one can argue that it would be impossible for a New Creature to make a full commitment to Christ, receive justification and the Holy Spirit, then to make a 180 degree turn to evil. I might agree that it is impossible if I did not believe that the scriptures taught it was possible.

                    Let me just start out with one passage that you may find of interest. I believe that the Second Death class is described in 2 Peter chapter 2. (NKJV below)

                    1 ¶ But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
                    2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
                    3 ¶ By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
                    4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
                    5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
                    6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
                    7 ¶ and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
                    8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds) —
                    9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
                    10 ¶ and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, [Apostles, good elders, etc.]
                    11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
                    12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
                    13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
                    14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
                    15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
                    16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
                    17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
                    18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
                    19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
                    20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
                    21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
                    22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

                    • Bret (B.S)

                      Peter;
                      Verry interesting text in consideration.. I have not looked at it in that light before but will take into consideration! Give me just a couple days to get back to you, as I was hoping to be done sooner with college class assignment but it now looks like it wont be complete until Monday..
                      I started on material I had in mind but with gather it all together this week for a comment..
                      Thanks

                    • Bret (B.S.)

                      Peter

                      Your words are so true “Your view is certainly shared by others. I find your view appealing in that among the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the danger and threat of Second Death, whether now or in Armageddon, is a weapon of fear to help destroy Christian Liberty and keep JWs under control and obedience to the JW Organization. So yes, from that perspective I like your view.”

                      And perhaps its being free from the JW fear-mongering that has brought about my view with respects to second death…
                      But either way Im determined to never face that outcome, because I love the Christ and the freedom and Liberty I found in him has brought so much to me and my family freeing us from an Organization that enslaves people and replaces the Christ as a false Christ..
                      I am always thankful to you and Jacquline because it is your site that I found several years ago that helped begin my journey out of slavery to man into the Christ. And two other individulas that helped along the way Bob Carnegie who I found talks on the internet and the site Restoration Light another Bible Student who writes some nice material..

              • Anon

                Yes I agree that the Bride Class (prospective Bride) is on trial for life.

              • Bret (B.S)

                Hebrew 10:26-27

                Is Paul here saying that those Christians who left the congregation and the Christ and went back to the law have no resurrection coming and therefore face Gehenna without a resurrection and judgement day?

                Some say once you use the benefits of the Ransom once there is no way to sacrifice Christ over again…

                First we have to recognize the context and then consider Paul was quoting the Greek Septuagint and a Judgment Day text in Hebrews 10:27 Paul is quoting Isaiah 26:10, 11

                10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah.

                The wicked are showed favor by being resurrected to the earthly Kingdom under Christ rulership

                11 Jehovah, thy hand is lifted up, yet they see not: but they shall see thy zeal for the people, and be put to shame; yea, fire shall devour thine adversaries.

                But dome of those wicked will not change their obstinate hearts and die a second death.

                What was Paul saying? In context he was talking about Christians who the Judiazers were leading back to the Law… A law that did not provide a sacrifice that covers sin..

                The whole book of Hebrews is demonstrating that Jesus sacrifice was superior to that provided by the law and the priesthood who had to do it over and over while Christ cleansed it permanently without having to die over and over. A “propitiatory sacrifice”.

                Paul was here saying they had already tasted the christ and left and went back to the inferior law where there was no sacrifice to cover sins. And Paul said it was not possible to get them to turn around (repent) and comeback to Christ because they had already tasted or experienced it and left back to the Law.

                A law that had been rendered obsolete since Christ fulfilled the law and now it was no longer needed.

                So Paul simple quotes Isaiah 26:11 indicating that they are putting themselves in position to face a possible fiery judgement and second death.. Because what we do in this age will carry over to the next.

                Greek Septuagint
                26:11 O Lord, thine arm is exalted, yet they knew it not: but when they know they shall be ashamed: jealously shall seize upon an untaught nation, and now fire shall devour the adversaries.

                Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

                Jesus used illustrations, parables and spoke in hyperbole…

                Matt 12:32 is an example of this “Hyperbole”..

                “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

                Here Jesus was dealing with the religious leaders who claimed he was expelling demons by means of their ruler Satan, pointing out their obstinate hearts by their words they spoke!

                But Jesus makes it clear in verse 36 that they will render account on Judgment Day

                36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

                I believe that it is only after every man dies under the condemnation in Adam, that they can then, free of futility and sin can possibly sin against the holy spirit… Once Gods spirit is poured out on ALL flesh during the millennium Joel 2:32…

                Man is currently under the influence of sin and imperfection and it is only when they are freed from such that its possible to receive an everlasting Judgment of death..

                • Bret (B.S)

                  Is “Second Death” possible in this age?

                  All men receive a resurrection and Judgment due to the “Ransom for all”

                  1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall “All” be made alive.

                  Here it is that “ALL” shall be made alive. Paul brings out same thought at Romans 5:18, That “ALL men receive a justification to life. Notice Benjamin Wilson Diaglott

                  Romans 5:18
                  Therefore, indeed, as through One Offense, sentence came on ALL men to Condemnation ; so also, through One Righteous act, sentence came on “ALL men” to Justification of Life.

                  Just as no man can get out of the sentence of death in Adam, no man can get out of the sentence to justification of life, that is a resurrection and then judgement.

                  Jesus own words are in Harmony with Paul 1 Cor 15:22,23 and Romans 5:18 and Johns words Rev 20:12-15 about ALL men receiving a resurrection from the dead

                  John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

                  Again the order is that “they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.”

                  the word ALL cannot be changed! It is either true for all or the word ALL is made impotent and invalid..

                  This is in harmony with Pauls statement at Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment

                  Hebrews 6:2 shows the sequence, that is first a resurrection then a judgment!
                  “the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment”

                  Judgment Day is for all people excluding those who are justified to life now..

                  2Peter 2:9 ….. and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

                  Rom 14:10 …for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God.

                  The scriptures make it clear there is one period of judgment for “All Men” and that is “Judgment Day”, and the scriptures are harmonious on that!

                  Second Death

                  The words second death are only found in the book of Revelation and they indicate no one is found to be there until the 1,000 years…

                  Rev 2:11 …..He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

                  The New Creation is not susceptible to second death because they gain life before the millennium and are Judges at that time..

                  Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                  The Book of life isn’t even open for registration until after the millennium begins and Revelation chpt 20 clearly shows no one is in the Lake of fire before that time…

                  Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                  John confirms like Jesus, and Paul, that all the dead come back to life…

                  Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

                  The New Creation who do not remain loyal come up in the resurrection as evil doers and are judged

                  Only wild beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire before millennium begins
                  And they are not individuals but evil systems

                  Rev 20:10 …. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are.
                  Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

                  • Bret (B.S)

                    Peter;

                    I believe All creation has to be free from the inhereted sin and futility they have been made subject to in order to face a Judgment.. That is to be judged without the influence of Adams sin..
                    Not even the spirit creatures who forsook their dwelling place in the heavens face destruction during this age and is not their sin worse than that of imperfect men?
                    2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 6

                    The Ransom pays the atoning price and will set all men free but only after death and a resurrection!

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Bret the way I look at this is every time they went back to practicing the law they were not under the blood not that their everlasting life was at stake. This was a time of transition, a new spiritual follower and a new idea of going to heaven. They were confused an like some witnesses to day go back to the kingdom hall after being free. They subject themselves to slavery of the organization.
                  I think this is what is meant that if you don’t accept Christ as the redeemer then you are still dying because the law does not offer redemption. I don’t think Gehenna is being mentioned here in the first century.
                  Just my opinion also of the time of the end when the Angel of death is actually passing over and the firstborn of creation are at peril only like in Egypt. If they didn’t accept Christ and went back under the law, they are not of the household and of the firstborn that can die forever.
                  Rather than you will go to Gehenna if you don’t live up to your calling, I believe you will not go to heaven if you don’t live up to your calling. I get from this that you will or can go into the great company or resurrection on earth and be subject to second death after the Millennium. I hope I am explaining myself and just jumped in for a minute not meaning to interrupt the line of thinking here.

                • Zionsherald

                  Hey everyone,

                  In regards to this discussion, I’m wondering how the following context would be understood.

                  1 Corinthians 5:18-19 to 6;1-2
                  18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
                  19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
                  20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
                  21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
                  1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain–
                  2 for He says, “AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.” Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION”–

                  Jeff

  • Stan

    Yes you are right Simon. But while I got you, what do you think of these three.
    1. Matthew 20:28
    2. John 20:28
    3. Acts 20:28

    Jacqueline gave me a nice one on Ransom. Get that from her. Also note her translation on John 20:28.

    One other major thing. When many become Bible Students in this day and age, they hurry in. Now that is not bad but it takes a long time before they get to Volume Six. Note the seriousness of the following from that book.

    Pages 302 and 303 reads, “We are informed that there is a sin unto death, for which it useless to pray (I John 5:16); and we are to expect that such a willful sin as would be so open, so flagrant, as to be readily discerned by those who are in fellowship of the Lord. We are not to judge of any by what is in there hearts, for we cannot read their hearts; but if they commit willful sin unto death it will surely become manifest outwardly- by their lips, if they are doctrinal transgressions, denying the precious blood of atonement; or by their immoralities, if they have turned to walk after the flesh, “like the sow that is washed, to her walling in the mire.” It is respecting such as these, referred to in Heb. 6:4-8; 10:26-31, that the Apostle warns us to have no dealings whatever-not to eat with them, not to receive them into our houses, and not to bid them God-speed (2 John 9-11); because these who would affiliate with them or bid them God-speed would be accounted as taking their places as enemies of God, and as partaking of the evil deeds or evil doctrines, as the case might be.”

    Don’t confuse that with sharing info here. If you get to listen to Br David Rice on the Ransom, let us know what you think.

    • Bret (B.S.)

      Stan;

      If I might join in on your discussion and questions… Though I agree with the majority of what Pastor Russell said and wrote and have deep respect for him and his great use the Lord made of him, I do think there are areas where he was not completely accurate and Hebrews 6 and 10 are certainly one of those areas. If you have not read my post on those two chapters and Russell’s view on them that the majority of Bible Students hold in common then please do.
      I beleive Paul is taken out of context because contextually he is not discussing there everlasting judgement but simply where they have placed themselves when it comes to their standing and leaving the Christ for the former inferior law that was but a tutor leading to Christ..
      Paul quotes the Septuagint and a judgement day text from Isaiah the 26th chapter indicating that there future on Judgment Day was in jeopardy.

      As for the Ransom for “many or all”, I do beleive once Jesus met the price required it would violate the Jehovahs standard of Justice to remove the Ransom from anyone once it had been paid..
      I do believe there is no contradiction between many or all and can be explained simply as paul puts it in both Romans 5:15 and 19 in that “Many” means all because death came upon the many and that is all Adams off spring.

      • Simon

        Hi Stan and Brett
        Havent been able to reply due to power out here.

        I too have the greatest respect for Pastor Russell, clearly he was a man who was led by Jehovah’s spirit, though i agree also, if he’d lived longer i feel he would have adjusted some of his views. I havent read your discussion on Hebrew 6 and 10 yet, but will do so.

        Brett i must say you have a very balanced view and understanding of the scriptures and appreciate that very much and also understand more and more what you are saying and agree with you (though some i still disagree with some haha).

        Rgds
        S.

  • Stan

    At John 20:28 Jesus said the ransom would be for many. Pretend you are one of his follows right there when Jesus said it. And you look at another apostle and ask him, doesn’t many mean the majority of the people? And he replied yes, but you better ask the Master why he didn’t say all.

    Who did Jesus exclude at the time he said that?

    What a great topic for an online convention of as many Bible Students as we could get. Think of the wisdom from the brethren. It would tap into a great amount of wisdom! What do you think?

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Stan the convention talk has already been given. Please go here to listen to many on that scripture of a Ransom for many.http://bibleresources.info/?s=Ransom

      Stan this is what John says.
      John 20:28New American Standard Bible (NASB)
      28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    • Simon

      Hi Stan
      I believe you are referring to Matt 20:28 here and what Jesus said in that verse.

      Excellent point to put ourselves in the perspective of those close to Jesus when he said what he said and why he said it.

      For me, Jesus knew, as he could read the hearts of those he was speaking to, particularly the Scribes and Pharisees etc that they would not listen under any circumstance. They were more interested in their position and that the normal people looked up to them as something far more important than the Son of God….see John 11:45-52

      In the context of Matt 20, Jesus is teaching all the disciples a lesson not to become like those Scribes and Pharisees and put themselves one above the other. But to keep their hearts humble. Hence why in the NIV it also says about the many, not all….Jesus called such Jewish leaders on many occasions….offspring of vipers and they were from their father the Devil….its a fearful thing to fall under the hand of God and be judged Heb 10:31….i believe their actions condemned them and hence the resurrection is for many……as in a relatively few will not but the vast majority will get a resurrection.
      Rgds
      S.

      • Anon

        Simon you can’t use one scripture against another. Why would Jesus say “many” yet in other scripture say “all”.? Because Jesus gave his life to save only those who accept him; now or in the Millennial Age. Show me one scripture where it says some won’t be resurrected. That’s:
        A. assumption based off a phony translation of “grave” into memorial
        B.That all means many in every instance because it does in another verse

        Show me one verse where some won’t be resurrected.

        • Simon

          Hi Anon
          For the benefit of Stan
          Scriptures to consider along with wording, as shown in NIV and NKJV (which i prefer to use) and other Bible versions and particularly backed up by either the Greek or Hebrew rendering of the words used, see either Gill’s or Barnes or any of the commentaries. Not my words, but what is freely available for ‘all people’ to view…..

          Dan 12:1&2…..Many or multitudes…not all…ties in with the resurrection to life and judgement as explained at John 5:28&29

          Matt 20:28, as used by Stan also

          As suggested in my other posts, see the commentaries on 1Tim 2:3-6 & 4:10-12, not my words, but those who have looked into it, both from the late 1700’s until now.

          Draw a comparison with what Jesus said at Matt 10:22……you will be hated by everyone…or…all people…… sensibly we know that we as BS will not be hated by everyone on earth per se…. logically it means a lot of people or many people. So understanding the scriptures as a whole and in context of what is said is imperative.

          No need for me to say more as i seem to upset you by logical comments, so apologies..
          rgds
          S.

          • Anon

            Daniel 12:1,2
            12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

            This is discussing the deliverance in the Armageddon. Please show me where this scripture indicates that those who die in Armageddon are not resurrected. Even in vs 2 it shows that those who aren’t righteous will be resurrected. You’re digging a hole that you can’t afford to dig. You’re basically saying that we are written into the book of life in this age. That defeats the whole purpose of the millennium. Yes many are written in the book of life now and the bible says they will escape this on the day of his wrath. But nothing pertaining to non ressurection.
            So your point is moot.

            Also, it says as in Adam ALL die! Are you assuming this means many?

            Also Romans 5:12 states “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned–”
            Does this mean many sinned? Or All. So don’t assume that all means many in each case.

            Everyone is allowed a full opportunity. The ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Explain to me how we can sin against the holy spirit unless we have it. The world clearly doesn’t have it and doesn’t mean they won’t be resurrected. Only the church class can go into second death in this age. Only they can blaspheme against what they have. Not the world. I suggest you do a study on classes vs individuals.

            You’re basically saying we can go bankrupt with no money to start with.

          • Anon

            To add to the comment I just posted after you wrote back I’m Actually not upset with your insult. I’m a math teacher to logic is my thing. Saying you’ve upset someone with logical comments is saying that they are dumb. But we can all see on here you’re ignorant of the scripture. You’ve quoted passages with “all”. For ex you’d shown in 1 Tim 3 that God wants all to come to truth knowledge of the truth. Please me that God only want many and not really all. Your version of all is off.

      • Bret (B.S.)

        Simon;

        Hello and Im back off vacation, which was refreshing. Have been getting caught up on some of the posts on the subject of “Many or All”.

        It seems the burden of proof has been placed on those of us who believe that all mankind under the burden of inherited sin and corruption are to receive a resurrection by means of the Ransom.. You argue that Jehovah holds back that Ransom from some even though Christ paid it giving a corresponding “Ransom for All”..

        Simon, I have not seen one proof txt from you that anyone has received a judgement of Second death or Gehenna..
        Not one scripture that indicates any single person in this age (Gospel Age) or any other age for that matter has received such a punishment.

        Your arguments have simply been about historical references and word definitions but not one proof text..

        Simply said Second Death is only mentioned in the book of Revelation and it confirms that no one receives that until after the Day of Judgement begins..

        Simon please present your case that anyone is mentioned as to have been judged to permanent death without the hope of a resurrection.

        • Bret (B.S.)

          Simon;

          You mentioned before that Judas died the second death, so I ask a couple questions with regards to Judas.

          1) Judas was not a spirit begotten son of God and therefore was not spirit lead, dying before Gods spirit was poured out upon Christs followers at Pentecost. So are you saying that even a person who isnt even a spirit begotten Son of God who turns wicked can receive the Judgment of second death?

          2) Therefore do believe others who are not spirit begotten can commit an unforgivable sin? And if so proof text please.

          • Bret (B.S.)

            Simon;

            Jehovah is governed by his own attributes is he not? Love and Justice being qualities he displays like no other?
            Can Jehovah violate his own quality of perfect justice?

            Therefore Jehovah required a price to be paid in order to buy back what Adam lost. Therefore matching his perfect justice Christ a perfect man paid a corresponding price..

            Just as in Adam all are dying so likewise All in christ shall be made alive!

            So if Christ met the requirement Jehovah had in place a perfect life for a perfect life and paid the price to set mankind free would Jehovah not be violating his own perfect justice by refusing the Ransom to some?

            Is not the Ransom the free gift from God? It does not require faith or works? Therefore its the grace of God or as JW’s say his Undeserved Kindness!

            A Christians faith in the Ransom brings additional benefits now such as justification in Gods eyes and the opportunity of immortality. But the is extended by God and is not a necessity for one to be resurrected to life on the Day of Judgement..

        • Cazenovi (Bible Student & JW)

          Second death applies to those who would die a second time… those who die during and after the Millennium by the Lord righteous judgement, thus will NOT be resurrected again, thus eternal death. Rev 20:6 “Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.” The first phase (for lack of a better description) resurrection applies to the spirit begotten, the second death does not have power over them, it is not possible. The world of mankind including (JW implied GC) are in the second phase resurrection which the second death DOES have power over them, those who do not submit to Christ’s rulership THEN are subjected to death. They die for the second time, this time, for good.

          • Anonymous

            Cazenovi;

            I agree with your assessment, but there is an exception to some of it, and what I am talking about is those who survive the tribulation and Armageddon and yet never die in this old age yet perhaps do not make past the little season during the millennium. To these the second death is the same as to the rest, there is no return to it.

            Exapmle; Zechariah 14:16 And it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem, they must also go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the festival of the booths…

            Yes those who never experience death on this side of the peaceable kingdom still face the Second death…

            Jesus had the second death/Lake of fire in mind when he made reference to Gehenna. Yet Jesus never spoke of those who suffered such before judgement day, only those who had the prospects of facing such an outcome during Judgement day
            John 12:47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day;

            That last day is Judgment day 1,000 yrs

            • Bret (B.S.)

              Hebrew 10:26-27 and 6:4-6

              Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
              27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.
              Heb 6:4 For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.

              Is Paul here saying that those Christians who left the congregation and the Christ and went back to the law have no resurrection coming and therefore face Gehenna without the hope of a resurrection and judgement day?
              Some say once you use the benefits of the Ransom once there is no way to sacrifice Christ over again…

              First we have to recognize the context and then consider Paul was quoting the Greek Septuagint and a Judgment Day text in Hebrews 10:27 he is quoting Isaiah 26:10, 11

              10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.
              11 O Jehovah, your hand has become high, [but] they do not behold [it]. They will behold and be ashamed at the zeal for [your] people. Yes, the very fire for your own adversaries will eat them up.

              If we were to take what Paul was saying here literally then what about the man in Corinthians who was committing fornication with his fathers wife… “such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father”.
              How would it be possible for a Christian to return who was committed such a terrible sin? Here the scripture says its not possible for him to return to repentance. Yet in 2 Corinthians he does return to the fold.

              But that is not what Paul is saying at all… In context he talking about Christians who Judiazers were leading back to the Law… A law that did not provide a sacrifice that covers sin..
              The whole book of Hebrews is demonstrating that Jesus sacrifice was superior to that provided by the law and the priesthood who had to do it over and over while Christ cleansed it permanently without having to die over and over. A “propitiatory sacrifice”.
              Paul was here saying they had already tasted the christ and left and went back to the inferior law where there was no sacrifice to cover sins. And Paul said it was not possible to get them to turn around (repent) and comeback to Christ because they had already tasted or experienced it and left back to the Law.

              So Paul simple quotes Isaiah 26:11 indicating that they are putting themselves in position to face a possible fiery judgement and second death.. Because what we do in this age will carry over to the next.

              Septuagint
              26:11 O Lord, thine arm is exalted, yet they knew it not: but when they know they shall be ashamed: jealously shall seize upon an untaught nation, and now fire shall devour the adversaries.

            • Simon

              Hi Bret, Anonymous and Cazenovi and all
              I think you have made some very excellent points that need to be considered in its overall and thats the reason its so interesting with this conversation. I agree with so many.
              The only reason i say Judas was lost is as follows:-
              During his prayer in John 17, quite rightly its said that the judgment will occur in the 1,000yrs and in v47 Jesus said he came to save the world not judge it.
              But equally in v12 Jesus said he had lost one (Judas) who was doomed to destruction. The KJV uses the Greek word for ‘perdition’,which is apwleia (ap-o’-li-a) and is said to reflect eternal damnation or utter destruction.
              Obviously Jesus had judged Judas for his actions, but thats not a contradiction to v47, as he had come to save the world (of mankind).
              But i will say i dont know if this means that Judas is judged in the judgement day when this will occur, though it just seems strange to me why resurrect someone to send him straight to eternal destruction?? Judas has been judged to damnation, so it must happen otherwise Jesus would be accused of being a liar….
              Just my thoughts
              rgds
              S.

              • Bret (B.S.)

                Simon;

                First let me say that I am the anonymous post (forgot to put my name before posting perhaps Jacqueline can correct)

                I understand your thoughts on Jesus words and reference to destruction. But think about Jesus statements in other places such as Matt 23:33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?” is Jesus wrong in his thinking and could those pharasees perhaps escape a Judgement of destruction and why would Jehovah even bother with judgement day for them? I believe Jesus was simply saying the were setting a character pattern that would most likely lead to destruction.

                Another example
                Matt 11:23,24. 23 And you, Ca·perʹna·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Haʹdes you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day. 24 Consequently I say to YOU people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

                Is Jesus saying those of Capernaum have no chance? I believe again they were setting an unfavorable pattern.

                • Bret (B.S.)

                  Simon;

                  I believe the Watchtower makes a complete conveluted mess of the Ransom.

                  1) I believe either the Ransom was a price paid for all and just as no man can escape the sentence upon Adam, no one can escape the new sentence brought upon man to a resurrection to judgement because of Christ 1 righteous act.

                  Notice the Benjamin Wilson Diaglott

                  Romans 5:18
                  Therefore, indeed, as through One Offense, sentence came on ALL men to Condemnation ; so also, through One Righteous act, sentence came on ALL men to Justification of Life.

                  2) either the Ransom is a free gift not requiring faith or works or it is not and is based on faith and works.

                  For some to loose out on the Ransom because of their lack of faith or works i.e Judas, religious leaders of Christ day, Armageddon ect this would mean the Ransom is substitutionary like the nominal churches teach.

                  3) Either Jehovah is just and loving and governed by his own attribute of Justice and has excepted the payment (corresponding ransom) that was paid by Jesus or he has not.
                  To refuse the Ransom to anyone would be denying the price paid by Christ. Heb 2:9…having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

                  The Ransom is the grace of God upon mankind who is under the Judgement of death in Adam or condemnation in Adam this is also referred to as being under the wrath of God.

                  I do not believe that anyman under this sentence in Adam can by his works or lack of faith bring eternal destruction upon himself in this present age. I believe God plan of the ages is to bring relief to every human buying back what was lost in Adam that is the opportunity to gain life under perfect conditions.

                  If the Ransom can be affected by faith or works that please clearly explain how with related scriptures as well as explain how it does not apply to every single human based on works and faith?

            • Cazenovi (Bible Student & JW)

              Yes bret, I forgot to include the implied ones who havent died and live through into the Millenuim. Thanks for mentioning that important point.

        • Simon

          Hi Brett
          Hope you had a great vacation??
          Just to answer this part first, i suppose its important to understand about the use of the word hell (as used in NIV and KJV etc) and its relationship to Gehenna. Sorry as i know most know this aspect, but thought it best to just reiterate what we know and agree on…..
          The 1906 Jewish encyclopaedia states that it came to be associated with an accursed place and figuratively associated with a place from which there is only complete destruction or annihilation. It is therefore a symbolic name for the final place of judgement for the ungodly (see also Strong’s Greek Concordance).

          Mathew 5:22, helps us to understand that there is a clear distinction between the words Hades (the grave to which mankind goes when he dies) and Gehenna (often defined as Hell). Here Jesus uses the adjective ‘fire or fiery’ (NIV, NWT, KJV) in connection with the noun Hell along with the other occurrences of the word.

          Revelation 20:10-15 then helps us to see that this ‘fiery hell’ is a condition also known as the ‘lake of fire’. In this ‘lake of fire’ complete destruction takes place from which nothing returns, as indicated by Satan and the demons being cast into it after the thousand (millennial) year reign of Christ has ended and the final test of those on earth is completed. Verse 14 also shows us that death (the condition or wages that all sinful imperfect mankind is currently going toward [Romans 6:23] and the last enemy for all sinful mankind [1 Corinthians 14:26]) and Hades (the grave of mankind) would also be completely destroyed (as indicted by being thrown into the ‘lake of fire’). This is the 2nd death from which nothing returns and which means total annihilation.

          Luke 12:4 & 5 like Matthew 10:28, clearly states that we must fear the one who has the power to completely destroy the body and soul as it states, ‘I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell (or Gehenna as the adjective is used by Jesus here). Yes, I tell you, fear him.’ (NIV)………But was Jesus referring to this being the case during man’s lifetime or only at the time of the final test at the end of the millennium reign? Thats the question i had to find a satisfactory answer to for myself.

          In Mark 9:43 to 48, Jesus spoke about what would happen to individuals (are these purely ones who had been previously spirit begotten??) who would stumble the chosen ones who believed in him. That such ones would go to hell, in other words as explained regarding the word used as hell, they would suffer eternal destruction of the second death (Gehenna). In v43, Jesus mentions about entering life (and in v47 kingdom of God), so that must mean at the time of the start of the millennium reign and the resurrection, which therefore implies that those who did not change and who stumbled his chosen ones, would be judged as worthy of eternal destruction. That such ones may have caused initially a stumbling does not stop them from changing their course, ie cutting off their hands or plucking out their eyes and thus having the chance to be saved during the millennium by being resurrected. Or change before Armageddon (please note i dont believe only being baptised as a JW is the saving grace). Such figurative speech includes having to change from ambitious thoughts (eyes) or even physical traits or impure inclinations (hands and feet etc). See also Matthew 18:9 also Mark 9:48 is a quote and linked to Isaiah 66:24.
          While in Matthew 5:22, Jesus here uses the illustration of each successive step of judgement (by the various courts etc) dependent on the crime committed, to that of death at the hands of the Sanhedrin. But then this is exceeded and leading eventually to the highest judgement being that of Gehenna. The Greek words and phrases used as explained in the commentaries is 1) ΜΩΡῈ meaning the most utterly deplorable act (such as apostasy(do you have to be previously spirit begotten and turn against Jehovah to be an apostate??)) and is linked with the same root Greek μωρανθῇ at Matthew 5:13 to be trampled underfoot and 2) ἜΝΟΧΟς ἜΣΤΑΙ ΕἸς ΤῊΝ ΓΈΕΝΝΑΝ ΤΟῦ ΠΥΡΌς, meaning ‘he shall be criminal for the fiery Gehenna’. So if anyone should during their lifetime commit such a deplorable act and not change from it, they would be trampled underfoot by the Son of Man and be utterly destroyed in Gehenna and not deserve even a resurrection. So Gehenna can be applied in a figurative sense that it has already happened to such (few) individuals (by Gods judgement) before the final test. It strengthens my faith to know that God is in full control

          Thats the understanding im coming too. Grateful for any thoughts or understanding??
          Rgds
          S.

          • Anon

            Incorrect. Only people Jesus referenced to Gehenna were his diciples not the world of mankind. You’re still following Rutherford errors. Sorry is our facts disprove your “implied” logic.

            • Bret (B.S)

              Anon:

              Hey I have a talk by a Bible Student in fact three talks but one in particular that demonstrates permanent death or second death is only possible after the Day of Judgement begins. It cover Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 and explains them in good detail and how they are taken out of context. email me and I will send you the talk to listen to! Great talk and influenced me and also brought me out of the Witness organization, just the explanation of these two chapters opened my eyes to realize that there was no way they had the truth and the “faithful Slave” was a fraud. JW’s use fear of second death to control and manipulate all JW’s…
              My email powersinspec@hotmail.com

          • Bret (B.S)

            Simon:

            I appreciate your thoughts and expressing your understanding as you expressed them. It does seem to me that the common fear tactic that Rutherford so deeply imbedded into the minds of Witnesses still has a grip on your thinking. I have not seen a single scripture that indicates that any Human who is currently under the wrath of God (condemnation in Adam) is bypassed by a new judgement. Every Human in their imperfect sinful bodies are under the sentence of death in Adam. Until they die there is no new Judgement pronounced against them as though those who die at Armageddon or under any other situation die a new judgment of eternal destruction. I repeat every human is sentenced to death in Adam. The scriptures say the wages sin pays is death… He that has died is free from sin. That simply means the sentence of death that came upon every human is complete when they have paid and that is by means of death. Those who die at Armageddon simple die the death that they have inherited and that is through Adam. There simply is not a single scripture that states anyone dies a permanent death at any period prior to Judgment Day. You can reason around it but you have to take scriptures completely out of context and excuse the fact that Jehovah is not governed by his own attribute of justice, and can violate that justice by refusing the Ransom to a fallen human who is already under the sentence of death in Adam and is completely under the influence of imperfection and corruption. Excuse the expression but this makes Jehovah an “Indian giver” a derogatory reference to someone who gives something as a gift and then takes it back. The Ransom was a free gift for ALL men, freeing them from the sentence in Adam, only after they have paid the price.

            • Simon

              Hi Brett
              Thanks for your comments and in fact again i completely agree with your comments in almost all aspects….

              Whats your understanding on Mark 9:43-48 (and therefore what Jesus quoted as regards Isaiah)?? As much as some would say its a Rutherford mistake that i’m following, actually to tell you the honest truth, i’ve looked at very few of his teachings, this stems purely from my own study and trying to confirm that understanding for myself, hence the question i asked in my previous post.
              I ask as in Mark Jesus uses the expression life (actually Greek refers to eternal life, and as we know that’s different to immortal life for a spirit begotten son) then in v47 Jesus say kingdom of God (here Greek refers to that which is different from life in the previous v). Thats why i came to the conclusion that it was referring to two distinct classes of people……help appreciated….
              Rgds
              S.

              • Simon

                Just a follow up….

                I suppose you could say that as i was taught JW ways from the time i started to study with them i was influenced by their teachings…..yes of course to begin with and so they are a product of Rutherford’s teachings. But to be honest, that stopped around 2000, as i was constantly checking what was stated and proving to myself if it was correct or not. Hence why actually i do disagree very much so with thoughts on Armageddon and disfellowshipping to name a few, who is F/S and who should write articles etc etc.
                Ive always trusted Jehovah to show me a clearer way of understanding, and he has never let me down….
                So its not about people telling me….your thoughts are rubbish, your just following this old way and the truth is its this…..If i wasnt a BS then that would be true, im just a blind follower…..its more about reasoning on the scriptures with proof to convince me, hence i will trying to answer from my understanding on the scriptures and hope, as you have done, that there is a clear view based on scripture to show otherwise…..i sincerely appreciate that, thanks as gets me thinking.
                Rgds
                S.
                S.

                • Bret (B.S.)

                  Simon;

                  Just for clarity… I was not saying that you gathered your thoughts and teachings from Rutherford per say but that he is the ultimate influence of “The fear doctrine” that the JW’s and many of us ex-witnesses continues to carry.

                  Fear is the best weapon of all great manipulators. It can move people to do anything, no matter how illogical and stupid.

                  “Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” ~Bertrand Russell

                  Religion has always relied on fear as its own strong nuclear force. Fear, more than any other characteristic, is what perpetuates religion and keeps it from falling apart.

                  Fear of death… Fear of second death… Fear of Armageddon… This is the fear that controls…

                  Rutherford’s Armegeddon vs. Russell’s Armegeddon

                  Rutherford introduced many doctrinal changes that shape the current beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He introduced his idea of Armegeddon. He formulated the current Witness concept of Armegeddon as God’s war on the wicked.

                  Russell on the other hand taught Armegeddon was the final stand of worldly rulerships both ecclesiastical and governmental. A time in which Gods kingdom would be established after defeating the current rulerships and to bring about judgment day (1,000 yrs) and final At•One•ment of mankind. Russell taught that Armageddon casualties die in their “sinful Adamic death” and thus recieve a resurrection…

                  Gods love is so far beyond our comprehension in that “He does not desire any to be destroyed” but desires all to atain to repentance…
                  I will use an illustration (Im not very good at). As a parent if you had a child who was born with an ailment and could not clearly function under normal conditions but was always influence in thinking and decisions by this ailment would you give up on that child? Holding the child completely responsible for actions that were influenced by the ailment?
                  God views us as though influenced by ailments. A pedophile may be the very lowest on our list due to violating children but the truth is they are probably victims of the same thing with arrested development of their mind and thinking with responses influenced by many factors of the psychological damage in their development stages of life. What would they be like under normal conditions and the brain development not influenced by such trauma? Well only under conditions where things of the past “will not be called to mind”
                  I read where a psychologist said that 80-90% of the worlds problems start during the development stages of a child abuse emotional, physical, and sexual create the world we live in today..
                  So I believe once this corruption is removed from the world and every human is resurrected and out from under the influence of Adamic sin then God can judge the earth in righteousness..

              • Bret (B.S.)

                Simon;

                I believe anytime it comes to parables and stories that Jesus tol or used they have to be understood in light of “plain statements of truth”. In other words there has to be complete harmony of scripture as you would agree.
                An example is the parable of the sheeps and goat Matt 25… The JW’s use this parable as thoughbit is a plain statement of scripture and interpret the timing of it wrongly.. Placing this at Armageddon instead of the millennium.
                So with regards to Mark 9:43-48 lets consider a couple points..

                Using the New World Translation
                Mr 9:43 And if ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Ge·henʹna, into the fire that cannot be put out

                It States its better to enter into life “Maimed”. Do we believe Jesus is encouraging self mutilation and that anyone will be maimed during the peaceable kingdom of christ, when the curring of the nations takes place? No… And verse 45 “it is finer for you to enter into life lame” same thing.. So these scriptures I believe are for a lesson and to be taken in any chronological order with regards to Gods divine plan.. This is also speaking of the physical body such as “being pitched into Gehenna” or the “Valley of Hinnom” an area to the south east of Jerusalem known as a loathsome place. Jesus was here speaking to his disciples getting a point across to them that whatever causes them stumbling, it needs to be removed because it can ultimately cost them their lives. That is an unresponsive heart can lead to an unfavorable judgement day…
                How about the rich man and Lazzarus.. If we do not view this based on plain statement of truth we would believe the dead are concious and suffer! Also why would Jesus use such a parable if the dead realy do not experience anything? Why would Jesus even use it as a parable if its based on a false premise? Because it was a simple story used to drive home a lesson..

                • Simon

                  Hi Brett and all
                  I totally agree about the fear factor and that is something that i try to say to even close family, ‘dont worry about what man says, its God that we should worry about. But remember God has the perfect balance not only of Justice, and at the same time he is what true love is’, and this is part of the reason i left mainstream churches many years ago. Mans teachings not God’s and why i question and research JW teachings ever since about 2000.

                  Just thinking about Mark 9, of course this is neither parable or story, this i believe is Jesus adding weight figuratively by being blunt about what needs to change in a person, whether its ambition or greed etc etc. this time period when this happens im still not convince by what has been shown me otherwise. But again i totally agree, there are many who’s minds are completely unsettled, but thats why God is the judge, only he truly knows. So please understand that im only ever talking about ‘willful’ acts.

                  Again totally agree, 2Pet3:9 ‘Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance’. But again you have used a scripture that i see as explaining what i have tried to explain as i understand things. As here Peter uses perish and repentance in the same breath, so when i looked it up, it refers to ‘excluding one immediately from the future hope’…and…’not Gods final judgement but his feelings now towards men’…Barnes notes. Meaning excluding from the future hope of life, ie before the millennium this would happen. As what other future hope is there, certainly none under Adamic death sentence.

                  Again just my understanding
                  rgds
                  S.

        • Simon

          Hi Bret
          Work has taken me away fro a while, so only just managed to read some points here again.

          You ask about proof of texts……What is your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10??
          When/what time period does this take place??

          Rgds
          S.

          • Bret (B.S)

            Simon;

            I have been busy myself, finishing up my college Algebra class since going back to school after leaving the JW organization. Have to have work complete and in by Monday.
            So I still need to answer Peters questions with regards to my view of second death. You ask the very scriptures I asked when first leaving the Organization! This is about the only text the JW’s rely on for their Armegeddon destruction proof text.
            Simon this is speaking about in “that day”, that is Judgement day of 1,000 yrs.
            a couple simple questions to ask with regards to this text answers it for you…
            1) who was Paul speaking to?
            Those in Thesolonica
            2) Who were the ones persecuting the congregation? And how will the recieve retribution?
            In order for those who persecuted the congregation to recieve retribution they would have to be resurrected and brought back to life, correct?
            For this time to be during Armageddon they would have to be resurrected some during that time and be destroyed for the context to fit the JW view..

            Notice: verse 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith,

            This scripture corresponds with Romans chapter 8:19-22 when the “Sons of God are revealed” during the millenium… It also corresponds with the Sheep and Goat parable of Matt 25…
            I have a great article written on 2Thes 1:6-10 its by a Bible Student who owns the RestorationLight site.. If you would like to read it i can email it to you?

            • Simon

              Hi Brett
              I wish you well with your college work, concentrate on that for the moment, glad to say i dont have to do that any more. I’ll get back to you also, as i see two ‘days’ as it were spoken of in this text, so can see the confusion it can cause many, including me…

              Great to discuss openly with you, Stan, Jacqueline and Peter and others as it really helps enforce we have the truth.

              Rgds
              S.

  • Stan

    Wii the following be in the memorial tombs? Nephilim
    Satan and demons.
    Adam.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Stan hello. Christ ransomed Adam and thus all of his offspring. The Nephilim are offspring of angels. They were not mankind. The Bible is very clear on satan and the demons being under divine judgement from Jehovah on whatever level he is dealing with these heavenly renegade sons of his.
      On here we are speaking of Ransom and Memory of God as respects humans.

      Perhaps these article will be helpful in understanding. It allows you to look up the scriptures slowly.

      This is an article page on human judgement: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/judgement/
      This is a page of articles on who is ransomed:http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/ransom-answers/
      This is an article on satan and the demonic influence today: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/occult-2/

      On your question of why the demons asked if he was there to destroy them. They showed that they knew him to be the son of God. Jesus really didn’t want nor need their verification.
      He was there to Ransom mankind the angelic rebels would have to await Jehovah’s timetable. He would not be swayed away from his father’s will to Ransom Adam.
      So he sent them into pigs because he was not wasting his time on them then and later he forbid them to speak in other instances for he needed no identification except what his father gave.
      We shouldn’t learn from demons. An object lesson from Jesus and very smart, I think to ignore them.

  • Jacqueline (Bible student)

    Simon this the beauty of being able to discuss and disagree. No offense when we are discussing the Bible. I enjoyed the discussion and I learned some points.
    Let me ask if you had memorial already or have B.s. brothers there and will April 21,2016? I plan to go with Chicago this year.

  • Francis

    To Anon

    I am sorry I offended you. I did not think I was judging you or taking your hope away. But so I don’t do that to you again I must say it was nice discussing with you. But I don’t want to get Jacqueline upset.

    Francis

  • Ken(B.S.)

    Hi, just wanted to give a shout out to all my Bible student Brethern

  • Francis

    Hi Anon

    Did you know the following was from Judge Rutherford’s book Salvation. 1939 Page 16, Adam found himself involved in that rebellion, the name Lucifer God then exchanged to that of Satan.

    And here is what Pastor Russell taught about 9 million viewers on that name in 1914. From the Photo- Drama of Creation 1914 page 15, “Lucifer Prince od Demons.”
    Page 14, “When Lucifer beheld the first human pair, he was tempted to try his experiment.- Thus Lucifer became Satan- God’s opponent. -Isaiah 14:12-14

    What do JWs believe now? the Hebrew word hehlel’ “shinning one” hehlel’ is therefore not a name or a title, but rather, a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar. Is. 14:4-21

    Se we see two agree but the other does not. Does that make the two bad? No! Why not? Consider Paul. He knowing that he was faithfully carrying out a stewardship for Christ, stated that he was not concerned with the judgment of men, who wholly unauthorized, sat in effect as a “(human tribunal)” to judge him. He did not even rely on his own judgment of himself, but looked to Jehovah as his Examiner. 1 Cor. 4:4

    So it is silly for us to judge these two men. Why judge at all? Would you like many more same set teachings that Pastor Russell and Judge Rutherford had in common? There are many. Aren’t all truth seekers trying to find the truth?

    Let me know if you want more.

    Francis

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Francis I think you are not understanding the purpose of this site. It is for those that want to come out from under the leadership and suppression of the present day organization. We recognize that Jehovah witnesses have an element of profound truth. Some Churches have truth also. We realize that ones coming on here have been a part of those able to get at deeper truths about the kingdom but need to stay on that path.
      The ORGANIZATION TODAY is not on that path, it is a money making for profit corporation.
      To get hung up on what this man or that man said is not profitable to me but may be for others. The point here is to get in the Bible and NOW learn from increased knowledge what God’s Divine Plan is. It is true that Rutherford branch off from the original thoughts and did his own thing and that is okay, between him and God.
      But this site is just trying to get at the root of truth. Both of the men are deceased and some of what they might have been thinking is conjecture as they are not here to properly defend what we think they would be thinking now.
      That is what happened to the witnesses presently, it seems that men whether a governing body or not is a form of worship for many. We don’t want to make that mistake of elevation of one human over the other. But if a Baptist minister or West and Hort came up with some valuable information I am sure we would all want to see it.
      The ancient discoveries that are going on today can increase our knowledge. To judge men on what they said eons ago seem unproductive to me.
      We need to move forward with searching the scriptures now to see if what is written is in harmony with what we presently believe, if it is, run with it ,f it isn’t, as an individual make changes. We always have that option as we are not bound by an organization’s rulings saying we can’t believe differently.

      • Simon

        Hi Jacqueline
        I just wanted to echo your sentiments as i think they are excellent in this reply…

        Today there is so much that we are able to look at….if you ever get the chance read some of the recently translated Lachish Letters, they show how the Divine name was in use before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. They quote from Jeremiah, proving we have the preserved word of God as it is today and correct in its form. All reinforcing our faith.

        Your last 2 paragraphs are exactly how i see things as an individual.

        Rgds
        S.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Simon thanks I will look them up tomorrow. I love reading other material. I have read the book of Enoch 3 times all the way thru. Crisis of conscience and In Search of Christian freedom which are thick books twice. I read about the early Christian fathers etc.
          It is as if I was starving to death for knowledge.
          I was so bored at the kingdom hall I would do my Bible reading there for the entire 2 hours. I have been called on and not heard the brother because I was reading another book or the Bible. I think I was able to break free cold turkey and quickly because I learned to dislike being there for 5 years before I left.
          I am corresponding with some others on our contact form and they feel the same way we do. FREE. One person expressed they were glad to see there are others like them and have broken free.
          I just can’t express how the conversations and articles on this site is setting people free to search the scriptures without fear of being killed by our Loving God.
          This expression of gratitude is coming thru the contact form by calls and the huge number following the conversations. Take Care. I need to go pray, I have a huge Dental appointment tomorrow, lol. It will be a sincere prayer for help in my terror of the dentist.

          • Simon

            Hi Jacqueline
            I wish you well, i just hate dentists…..

            Jehovah’s support and blessing.

            Rgds
            S.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Simon I told my dentist about what I said and the website so he said that’s why all went okay today I have prayers going up. We are on the study now it begins in a few minutes for 1hr 30 min so join us and say hello if you can. Take Care. 302)-202-1110 pin 991337

              • Simon

                Hi Jacqueline
                Im really pleased all went well for you…..like i said i hate dentists at the best of times…

                Sorry im not able to join the link, im living in Manila Philippines so i think the time difference means the study starts in the early hours here and i have to work.

                Im going to keep the schedule in mind for the future.
                thanks and Jehovahs blessing on all
                Rgds
                S.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Simon, but it helped for me to post we had two visitors come on after I posted the number so it was all good. We have an impending death of the oldest person in our family 97 and the first and oldest living elder in the Cleveland Ohio area. So family from many sides are talking today. I am the conduit in the family, I know all sides. It is a joy to see so many of them not let the policies of the society prevent us from loving each other doing this difficult time.
                  I do need to say however that my Uncle has been at deaths door for 3 years and had cancer since he was 84. He is strong of mind and calling people he wants to see. Two nephews not sick has gone on and Uncle is still here. He has no pain and is as ornery as ever but our family is talking to one another so this is a good thing coming out of this. Next event will be the funeral whenever this happens and that will be a huddle for me but there are many grandchildren that have left the organization so I will not be alone at the funeral.
                  I had no idea you were in the Phillipines, we have many Bible student brothers there and Glory Beth is my facebook friend. Take Care I have been on the phone and facebook pages all day. I guess that means I shouldn’t have to cook and can go out to dinner. lol (any excuse)

    • Anon

      Francis,
      As much as you think you know about Russell you can’t pick and choose commonalities and say they are one in the same. Have you asked yourself “What caused the 75% of Bible Students to leave Rutherford?” Trust me is was not because the Truth divided them. As sister Jacqueline stated they are a for-profil corporation. Rutherford replaced Chart of the Ages with profit charts. I suggest you read “Thirty years a watchtower slave”. It’s about a man who was there during Rutherford’s years and why he changed. Rutherford knew this and wanted control of the society. The Society left the truth when they changed the ransom into only those who join the organization. Now I left you quotes from the watchtower that says we must be in touch with the organization in order to see everlasting life. This is straight up Christendom. Russell brought us out of false organized religion and Rutherford brought you straight back in. The society is more like Catholicism than it is the truth. The society teaches you cannot understand the bible without them; there is no salvation outside tneir organization,and only their members will survive Armageddon. Many will say that the last one I stated is not true. The watchtower coming out for June 2016 Pg 17 states that only those who will be marked for survival are those who respond to the preaching work and support Christ’s brothers. In essence join the organization. That’s a cult.

      Also did you know in Rutherford’s book “Enemies” he stated that if you did not accept 1918 you were an enemy of God? This is not biblical. The organization just like the early church has fallen into apostasy. It has imposed a works-based salvation and made a strict law covenant out of the NT.

      The two can agree in one point but not be one in the same. By you comparing the Photo Drama and Rutherford is like saying Lutherans and LDS are the same because they believe in Jesus. You can’t take equivalents and show they are the same. Rutherford left the truth when he changed the ransom for all into just his followers and before and made a clergy class out of the faithful slave.

      • Cazenovi (Bible Student & JW)

        “The watchtower coming out for June 2016 Pg 17 states that only those who will be marked for survival are those who respond to the preaching work and support Christ’s brothers.”

        Say it ain’t so!! 🙁 How ridiculous. Is the Org going back to labeling goats again? It literally pains my heart to read:

        w16 June p.17
        “In Ezekiel’s day, no one received a literal
        mark on his forehead. The same is true today.
        What do people need to do to be symbolically
        marked for survival? They need to react favorably
        to the preaching work [?]
        that is taking place, put on
        the Christian personality, dedicate themselves to
        Jehovah, and loyally support Christ’s brothers.
        (Matt. 25:35-40) Those who do these things will
        receive the mark of survival during the coming
        great tribulation.”

        This is contradicting the previous paragraph that should have just been left at:

        “Ezekiel was not involved with the actual
        marking of people for survival; neither are God’s
        servants today.”

        Isn’t the commission today that of gathering the wheat? Calling and Electing the members of the Messianic Kingdom administration? The primary focus of this age?

        Under Christ’s rule then it the Judgement Day, once ALL are resurrected to a proper opportunity to “react favorably” to the preaching work of that time. The second death only applies to the end of the millennium and the wicked.

        To say all who do not respond favorably to the preaching work are ‘wicked or goats’ and thus will not survive, is absurd. The Lord is the only one who can read hearts.

        *HOWEVER* Although some will not survive Armageddon, doesn’t meant they will not be resurrected. The Org has changed this from the old view that whoever dies at Armageddon has no hope for a resurrection. (If you find recent articles to prove that I am wrong, please share. That may be the last straw for me if they reintroduce that rubbish.)

        **At least they did not specifically say “they must join the organization” to survive. Though they may have hinted/allude to it, but did not spell that out. Even still, it too close for comfort by use the sly wording.

        In Him, Cazenovi

        • Anon

          Yes. I read it. I was shocked too. It says they must support christ’s brothers which in essence means that they must become JWs. I don’t think that the WT realizes that they are so much like Babylon. They claim that salvation doesn’t exist outside their group, the bible cannot be understood without them and that only they will survive. It’s a shame that they have turned the ransom into a “us or death” group.

          • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

            Here is a novel idea that I often think about. It seems the really crazy non thinking stuff they say sounds as if they have been infiltrated again. It is said one of the now deceased GB members was from the FBI or another branch of the government. Some know his name. If so it could explain saying crazy stuff to break up their organization because it destroys families and often speak against the government or if satan has made a counterfeit org bent on deceiving people with an element of truth to it. This fear factor will keep even some that have left from going anywhere else while they wait on the org to change. His purpose is just to stop worship.
            I say this because even a twelve year old commented once on what they should have done in child abuse scandal and made sense. This is just to crazy after they told the Australian government under oath that they are not the only religious entity that God deals with today.
            It is the outright lies that causes me not to read their literature or listen to their talks because a liar simply can not be trusted. They act as if they are trying to make non witnesses hate their pompousness. Just my thoughts on these paragraphs. .

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Cazenovi, I found this documentary that might have some bearing on why they should not go back to this teaching. It is sad but it shows what can happen if the watchtower society and the governing body teach that death before armageddon means a resurrection and if you are not in the organization at armageddon you will perish. I don’t mean to disturb anyone but this needs to be shared. “:The Moore’s Tragedy”. It has some bearing if not the reason for this. Even parents want their children to be in the “New World” and it puts undo pressure on families. One of my sons said if I don’t die before armageddon their mother won’t be with them forever. I had to write this son out of my Medical directive because he could make a decision to let me die to make sure I am with him in the New World. My lawyers were shocked to see the watchtower had this teaching in it.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMmR_ItToE

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