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Did Jesus Have a Beginning? Was He Created?

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Christ: His Origins

The Image of the Invisible God

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.—Hebrews 1:5,6

Jesus is called the “image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). Paul also says it was the Father “who . . . delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (verses 12, 13). The word “icon” in English means an image or representation of something else. Because Jesus is the representative of the Father, he is the eikon (Greek) the “image” or “picture” of what the Father is (verse 15). While most Christians agree that Jesus is not the Father, there is a difference of opinion over who Jesus is. The first chapter of Colossians gives us a part of the answer.

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15). Here Jesus is called the “firstborn [Greek: prototokos] of God.” What does “firstborn” mean in this context? The word does not necessarily mean first in birth order; prototokos also means priority in importance or rank. In the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) prototokos appears 130 times. Half the time it refers to the first born son, the other half it means preeminence. In the New Testament, prototokos (firstborn) is used in a wide variety of ways, but usually with either of these two meanings.

First-in-time or First-in-importance

Why did Paul not describe Jesus as the “first created”? This would have directly answered who Jesus is and what his role in the universe has been, is, and will be. The Greek word protoktistos does mean “first created.” However, that Greek word is not used in the New Testament. Is Paul saying that Jesus is the preeminent one of creation?

When the word firstborn is followed by the genitive “of,” it requires the firstborn to be in the class that it is of. The “firstborn of” the house of Pharaoh belongs to the house of Pharaoh. The firstborn of the beasts is a beast. The firstborn of creation is therefore a part of the creation.

“He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the “firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18). Here firstborn refers to a rebirth from death. Jesus was not the first raised from the dead, but he WAS the first who was raised to a new life, to the glory of the divine nature, the first who came back from the dead to never die again.

The word protoktistos [first created] did not come into popular use until the second and third centuries. When it first began to be used, there was little distinction between it and the word for firstborn. Clement uses these terms interchangeably in his writings. He clearly calls Christ the “first created” and later the “firstborn” in the same letters.

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him” (Colossians 1:16, KJV). Jesus was the agent of creation; he was not the Creator himself. We see the same Greek word (di or dia) translated “by” in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:3. Jesus is before all creation, the first in a series, because through him God MADE the creation. A similar phrase in 1 Corinthians 15:26,27 (NIV) says that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death.” For he “has put everything under his feet.” The next verse goes on to say that the “everything” excludes God himself who put everything under Christ.

The word “all” (Greek: pas) can be translated “all other” or “everyone.” It is so translated in Luke 13:2 (NIV) and 21:29, and Philippians 2:21. Paul is not teaching that Jesus is distinct from the creation. 1 Corinthi­ans 8:6 explains that God the father is the source of all creation, while the son is the agency through which creation occurred (see also Proverbs 8:22-30; John 1:1-3). “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17, NIV). Jesus is before all things that were created through him.

“In these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world. The son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence [image of God—Colossians 1:15], and he sustains all things by his powerful word [now in these last days, now after he was raised to the glory on high], and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Thus he became so far better than the angels.” (Hebrews 1:2-4, NET; comments supplied.) Not only was the son the agent of creation in his pre-human existence, but since being raised to his resurrection glory, he continues to be the instrument by which the universe adheres or remains together.

Firstborn from the Dead

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning [Greek: arche], the firstborn [prototokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence” (Colossians 1:18).

Jesus is the arche (beginning) and prototokos (firstborn) from the dead. To what do these words refer? They refer to Jesus as the head of the body of Christ, the first who would be raised from the dead never to die again. Both words can refer to anything that is the “first of a series.”

“He is the beginning of the Christian church, the root, the fountain and foundation of it, the active beginning, or the first principle and author of it, and of all those influences of grace and spiritual life which animate and en­liven it. . . He is called the first-born from the dead . . . because he was the first that arose to an immortal life, never to die more; all others that were raised to life, besides him, died again, but death had no more dominion over him.”—Burkett’s Notes on the New Testament

Jesus had preeminence in all things over the old creation AND the new creation. The word “preeminence” also literally means “to be first.” Jesus was the first creation and he was the first who rose from the dead never to die again. Jesus was first in all things!

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Revelation 3:14). The book of Colossians was also shared with those in the Laodicean church (see Colossians 4:16). In the message to Laodicea in the book of Revelation the same thoughts about Jesus Christ are also found. It says that he is the “beginning [arche] of creation.” (Compare Revelation 3:14 with Colossians 1:15.) In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 Jesus tells each of the churches, “I am this,” and “I am that.” In this verse Jesus tells us he is the arche of the creation of God.

Greek scholars will say that arche in this sentence structure could mean that Jesus is the first created being, or that he is the ruler over all creation. It could even mean that Jesus was the source or origin of all creation although it does not have this definition anywhere in the New Testament. When discussing the word arche, a Trinitarian in his book says that “it must be admitted that the word might bear this meaning” (in the sense that Jesus was the first created being). He then goes on to quote Alford’s commentary, saying that “arche out of this context could possibly mean, ‘the Christ is the first created being.’” (See Robert M. Bowman, Should You Believe in the Trinity, p. 65.) Although he says that arche could be taken “out of. . . . context,” he does not explain his reasoning. The context of Revelation 3 certainly does not prohibit or encourage any specific definition to help us understand what this word means.

Other commentaries state a similar principle that the word arche and the grammar of Revelation 3:14 do not prohibit the idea that Jesus is the first created being. Every time the word arche is used by John in his writings in the singular form, he uses it to mean first in time.  Never once does he use it to mean origin or source. The point of Revelation 3:14 is that Jesus is the first of all creation.

Did God Make the World Through Wisdom or Through Jesus?

If Jesus is indeed the first created being, how can we say Jesus created all things? ­(Colossians 1:15,16) Proverbs chapter 8 helps to answer this question. “The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago” (Proverbs 8:22, TEV). “Get wisdom, though it cost all you have, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7, NIV).

Romans proclaims that the world is without the wisdom of God. It says that that the world is “without excuse” (Romans 1:20) because they should recognize the power of God in creation. But even today they do not know God and continue to sin. Nor do they know the son who was sent to redeem man, who is the Word of God, “the true light which lighteth every man [individually, without exception] that cometh into the world” (John 1:9). As a spoken word reveals invisible thought, so Christ the living Word reveals the invisible God. Jesus, as the mediator between God and man, said “anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9, NIV).

By definition wisdom is the application of knowledge, i.e., “daily practical living.” Wisdom is nothing unless it is manifested. God manifested his wisdom to us through Christ: “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:24,30; see also Col 2:3).

The evangelist alludes to the pre-existence of Jesus in Luke 11:49 when he identifies Jesus as the “wisdom of God.” The Barnes’ Noteson this Scripture say: “By the wisdom of God, here, is undoubtedly meant the Saviour himself.”

Luke 11:49 (AV) “Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute…”

There is no Old Testament passage Jesus is referring to.  Rather he is referring to his own words, describing himself as wisdom.  To verify, compare with the Matthew verse below.

Matt 23:29, 34 (AV) “29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees… 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:”

Therefore in Luke 11:49, it is Jesus (as wisdom) saying that he will send prophets and apostles, etc.

In Proverbs we find that God made the world through his wisdom: “The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth” (Proverbs 3:19). This is exactly the thought of Colossians 1:15,16 concerning Christ: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth.” Here Jesus is called the firstborn of every creature, which is the same thought of Jesus as God’s wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-30. “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning . . . When there was no depths I was brought forth. . . . Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.”

Jesus loves those who seek him and love him: “I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me” (Proverbs 8:17; see also Proverbs 1:28). Jesus leads in the way of righteousness just as wisdom does: “I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment” (Proverbs 8:20). Beginning with the early church fathers even to our own time Christians of all theological persuasions—Arians, Sabellians (Oneness), Unitarians, even Trinitarians—have for centuries applied Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to Jesus Christ.

“Wisdom here has personal properties and actions; and that intelligent divine person can be no other than the son of God himself, to whom the principal things here spoken of wisdom are attributed in other Scriptures.”—Matthew Henry Commentary

Jewish commentaries understood wisdom in Proverbs 8 to refer to a creature. “The Targum makes this wisdom a creature, by thus translating the passage: . . . ‘God created me in the beginning of his creatures.’ The Syriac is the same.”—Clarke’s Commentary

Wisdom says, “Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you” (Proverbs 1:23). Jesus said, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me” (John 15:26).

Many Bible commentators for centuries have understood Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to be descriptive of the works of Jesus Christ. contains the instructions of Wisdom or Christ; showing the excellency of them, and the author of them, in opposition to the harlot and her “This chapter allurements, in the preceding chapter.”—Gill’s Commentary

“It is a great question what this wisdom is. Some understand it of the Divine wisdom; ­others of [Christ] . . . the chapter may be ­understood of Christ considered partly in his ­personal capacity, and partly in regard of his office, which was to impart the mind and will of God to mankind.”—Wesley’s Notes

Can Wisdom be a Personification of Jesus?

Some argue that Wisdom can not be a personification of Jesus because Wisdom is feminine and Jesus was male: “Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth HER voice?” (Proverbs 8:1). Although the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is feminine, because wisdom is personified it is only a matter of grammar. Although war is normally associated with men going into battle, the Hebrew word for war is also feminine. Many non-English languages ascribe gender to nouns. The Polish word for “table” is masculine, but it is feminine in French. The gender of the Hebrew word for wisdom has no bearing on the object to which it refers. Jesus is prophetically spoken of as the “sun of righteousness” in Malachi 4:2; the Hebrew word for “sun” is also feminine (Strong’s 8121). See Strong’s Morphological Dictionary for word gender.

‘They are proclaimed from on high: She stands in the top of high places’ (Proverbs 8:2); it was from the top of Mount Sinai that the law was given, and Christ expounded it in a sermon upon the mount.”—Matthew Henry

Some say that this can not be prophetic of Christ because he did not cry out in the streets. Yet we read: “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets” (Matthew 12:17; see also Isaiah 42:1,2). These words are quoted from Isaiah by Matthew to explain why he retreated from his enemies and sought to hide himself. Those familiar with Jesus’ ministry know that Jesus did cry out the message of God in the streets. The Hebrew word translated cry is Strong’s 7121 which means “to preach.” Jesus preached everywhere he went.

In Proverbs 9 Wisdom is contrasted with Foolishness. If Wisdom is Christ and Wisdom is contrasted with its opposite, then foolishness must be that which is the opposite of Christ, i.e., the Antichrist who is represented as a “woman” in Revelation 17:3,4,6,18.

There are differences about the meaning of the word qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as to whether it means “possessed” or “created.” From a footnote on the NET translation of Proverbs 8:22 found at www.bible.org: “There are two roots in Hebrew, one meaning ‘to possess,’ and the other meaning ‘to create.’ The older translations did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Genesis 4:1; 14:19; Deuteronomy 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation ‘possess’ because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation ‘create.’ Athanasius translated it, ‘constituted me as the head of creation.’ The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of ‘to acquire’; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning ‘create.’ Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (‘appointed,’ ‘given birth’) argue for the translation of ‘create’ or ‘establish’ (R. N. Whybray, ‘Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,’VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, ‘Where Will Wisdom Be Found?’ JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).” Many translators render qanahas “created.”.

“Gesenius gives as the primary meaning of qanah: ‘to get, to gain, to obtain, to acquire.’ Davies gives it the meaning of ‘to form or make, to get or acquire, to gain or buy.’ Strong defines qanah as ‘to erect, i.e., to create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase.’ ” —The Great Debate, by Robert Wagoner

Regardless of the controversy surrounding the meaning of this word, contextually Wisdom is still spoken of as being “brought forth”: ”When there were no depths, I was brought forth” (Proverbs 8:24). The Hebrew word translated “brought forth” means “to be brought forth, to be born.” Wisdom was indeed “brought forth” and this helps us understand the context and meaning of this chapter and especially what “possessed” means in verse 22.

“Then I was by him, as one brought up [Strong’s #525: “artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman”] with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him” (Proverbs 8:30).  Not only can the word “possess” in this context have the meaning of “create” as translated in the Septuagint and Syriac, but we also see that Wisdom was brought up, was trained, and was the master workman of God’s creative works.

Testimony of Early Church Fathers

In the early third century, Origin, in his commentary on the Gospel of John said, “But Christ is demiurge as a beginning (arche), inasmuch as He is wisdom. It is in virtue of His being wisdom that He is called arche. For Wisdom says in Solomon: Proverbs 8:22   God created me the beginning of His ways, for His works, so that the Word might be in an arche, namely, in wisdom.”

In the Council of Nicaea, (325 AD), all three parties (Arians, Nicene Church Fathers and pre-Nicene CF)  applied Proverbs 8:22 to Jesus Christ, yet each did so differently. Even so, all factions were unified in applying the passage to Jesus.

Trinitarian scholar Edmund Fortman writes: “Paul applied it [Prov. 8:22-30] to the Son of God. The Apologists [Christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries] used it to prove to Gentile and Jew the pre-existence of the Word and his role in creation.” – (See CREEDS 5-16: quotes from the writings of Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Justin Martyr which equate the Son with “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 and admit that he had been created by God as the beginning of God’s works – Prov. 8:22.)

No Scripture States that Jesus Existed from Eternity

As can be seen, the passages spoken of thus far can be interpreted multiple ways which fit both contextually and grammatically.  Although one point of view has been presented in this article, the burden of proof must come from the other side. There are no Scriptures which state that the Son of God existed from eternity and did not have a beginning.

Passages that have been attempted to prove such a concept either do not fit contextually or grammatically. One such passage is found in the prophetic passage regarding the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.

“With a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek. But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:1-2)

Some have proposed that this passage states that it is Jesus’ who has come from eternity, that he has not had a beginning, however the passage merely states that his goings forth, or his works, have been from everlasting. This is because God has planned the sacrifice of his son who was born in Bethlehem so that he could be the Savior of the world.

The passage does not say that the ruler that would come from Bethlehem was God himself, but that he would be one who would go forth “for me”, for God, to be the ruler in Israel. The “days of old” here are translated from the Hebrew word, “Olam,” elsewhere translated by the same prophet Micah as “the days of Old” when speaking of the flocks which would feed in Bashan and Gilead as the days of old.

The same words are also used in Proverbs 8:22-23, where is speaks of the one who was created in the beginning of the way, before the works of old. This one was established from “everlasting”, from the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

Yes, Jesus is the master workman of God’s creative works! He was the first of Jehovah’s creative acts, and it was with his assistance that all other things came into being. Truly this great being who plays so many important roles in the great plan of the ages is worthy of our adoration and worship!

Contributed by Jeff Mezera

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64 comments to Did Jesus Have a Beginning? Was He Created?

  • traveler

    Well I agree with Jesus being the only begotten son or created son, obviously a beginning. We should respect the role our brother has played but there is only One teacher that is good and only one Savior, Yahweh and only one God that should be worshipped.

    (Acts 13:23) . . .From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. . .

    (1 Timothy 2:3-5) . . .This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. . .

    (Isaiah 43:11) . . .I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no Savior. . .

    Isaiah sets it straight, Yahweh is the only one who can resurrect or cause to be resurrected. Jesus is given power over the dead and is savior of his people but in the lower case sense.

    While I’m here, the “theory of the trinity” has been mentioned. I do not believe any sense can ever be made of this theory from outside the Bible, which as we know is historic fact.
    But it also seems strange that believing in the “God of truth”, Yahweh, you still continue to use the English representation of a mispronunciation “Jehovah”. It is explained in an in-depth dictionary and in the “Insight on the Scriptures” that the mispronunciation comes from the Catholic church through what has become known as “church Latin”. Church Latin is a mix of misunderstood pronunciations of Latin words by the English speaking members of the church and Latin pronuciations. The letter “j” in Latin has an English “y” sound, but an English “J” sound is given to it in “Church” Latin. Even in the cd disc the Watch Tower puts out, the sound icon over “Jah” states correctly “Yah”. We’re sure you’ve heard JW’s explain Hallelujah as praise Jah as a shortened form of Jehovah. They are always surprised by the organization’s real present truth and misunderstanding.

    The question to consider is: “why keep a representation of a mispronunciation of a transliterated word and use it to identify the God of truth?”

    The sounds we know of the name of the “God of truth” were deemed so important that they were transliterated into Hebrew, Greek and English as well as Latin, words coined to safeguard the sounds.

    1. Hebrew, YHWH pronounced Yahweh
    2. Greek, YHWH pronounced Yahweh
    3. English, YHWH, pronounced as the English word Yahweh
    4. Latin, JHVH pronounced Yahweh

    It seems ironic that the Watchtower would decide to use a mispronunciation for God’s name while attempting to “teach the truth to the world”.

  • Wild Olive

    @Daz,well said,I also enjoyed those comments.
    I toyed with the trinity for a while when my awakening happened,I had a good open minded look at it ,some of the things that I came up with might be worth a mention.
    It got down to 3 items.
    First nowhere in the Bible are they actually described together,in a few places we are given visions into heaven,it’s always The Father and The Lamb,or God and The Son of Man.No description of all three as an entity together in the same visions.
    Secondly the socalled personality of the Holy Spirit.The Greek language has the characteristic of personalising what is not a person,I have quite a few Greek friends and I’ve got used to how they do this,as most of them speak a mixture of Greek and English ( sort of)until this is grasped by the non wog Anglo Saxon,it is really confusing,and if a translator wants to he can manipulate this when translating from Greek to English.
    Thirdly and what I consider the most important,the Trinity just can’t fit in to the ransom arrangement,Jesus had to die to offer an authentic sacrifice,someone had to resssurect him,and he had to be created as a man,he then became a mediator between God and man not between man and himself.
    You could probably add a few more to that list

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Wild Olive – Thanks. Can you give me your opinion? Why do you think that so many people who leave the JW Organization are able to go back to denominational Churches and accept the Trinity or many even becoming aetheists?

      • Wild Olive

        This is only an opinion based on my own experience.
        When the realisation that I had been bluffed and baffled by the GB theology,it made me hate anything to do with God or the Bible,I thought if I can’t trust them then who can I trust?that sounds lame I know ,but that is the effect decades of “truth”indoctrination does to a person.So it’s while in this state of hatred/denial,that something else will take up the vacuum ,for me a direct experience with the Holy Spirit brought me to Christ,not back into the organization,Isa65:1 was fulfilled in me,however if this doesn’t happen to a person,or they don’t recognize it then the slide into atheism is an easy one.
        On the other hand the born again experience can be so overwhelming that the only religions that seem to be able to “handle it” fall into the evangelical/Pentecostal category,and along with that goes the trinity,so accepting it becomes easier.
        Just an opinion.

        • Lincoln

          Dear Wild Olive, YOu write:

          “On the other hand the born again experience can be so overwhelming that the only religions that seem to be able to “handle it” fall into the evangelical/Pentecostal category,and along with that goes the trinity,so accepting it becomes easier”.
          quote end.

          I would like to comment this issue. Let me say; we don’t know who God is, but we understand (we say) that God is “Spirit” which we have from the NT, the Greek Scriptures.

          To me “Spirit” is very overwhelming and without any limits until we put limits onto it.

          On the other hand, we say “in heaven”, but where is “heaven”? God “lives” in heaven, but where does God actually live? I don’t know. Therefore I like to comment on the Godhead; God the Father.

          • ZionsHerald

            Lincoln,

            We can only go by how the Scriptures describe our Heavenly Father. It is from the Scriptures that we know that our Lord is all powerful, yet at the same time there are things he cannot or will not do.

            1. HE CANNOT LIE.
            “That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us” (Hebrews 6:18).

            2. HE CANNOT CHANGE.
            “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” (Malachi 3:6).

            3. HE CANNOT BREAK A PROMISE.
            “My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips” (Psalm 89:34).

            4. HIS INTENT AND POWER CANNOT BE STOPPED.
            “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:35).

            5. HIS WORD CANNOT BE BROKEN.
            “… the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35)

            6. GOD’S LAW CANNOT BE ANNULLED.
            “…all His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness” (Psalm 111:7–8).

            7. GOD CANNOT STAND SIN.
            “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear” (Isaiah 59:1–2).

            8. GOD CANNOT BE PLEASED WITHOUT FAITH.
            “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6).

            I believe it’s a good thing that He sets limits for himself for who could trust a God that lied, that didn’t keep His promises, or changed on a whim? These descriptions of God’s ‘limitations’ are faith strengthening for me.

            • Lincoln

              Thank you ZionsHerald for comments. Yes, we believe that (the words from the Holy Book of the Jews). This is the “way” we understand God. Maybe you like to comment on what I wrote?
              __________________________________________________________________________________

              Let me say this; we don’t know who God is, but we understand (we say) that God is “Spirit” which we have from the NT, the Greek Scriptures.

              To me “Spirit” is very overwhelming and without any limits until we put limits onto it.

              On the other hand, we say “in heaven”, but where is “heaven”? God “lives” in heaven, but where does God actually live? I don’t know. Therefore I like to comment on the Godhead; God the Father.

              I would like to comments this myself all along.

              • Lincoln

                My further comments on ZionsHerald

                – 8. GOD CANNOT BE PLEASED WITHOUT FAITH.
                “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6).quote end.

                I like to comment Hebrew chapter 11 as you quote from:

                8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the >promised landnumerouscountless as the sand on the seashoreheavenly< one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
                Quote end.

                So, we better understand the situation in the Middle East today and the Jews Israel and their faith in their God JHVH.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYmomUuveU

                But, they are not Jehovah`s Witnesses neither Bible Students, so what happens? The answer is Jesus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoXw-d59_fQ

                And for the sons of Ismael: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db_p1mDhusc

            • greg (Bible Student)

              I very much enjoyed your response. To me it is a very thorough reply, and also very appreciation-stimulating. Thank you!

              -greg

              • greg (Bible Student)

                Ooops! I meant to clearly address my thanks to ZionsHerald.

                🙂

                -greg

              • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                Dear Greg, I received your email and am devastated to hear about your mother. I will let you tell your experience here in your way and words before I comment further. May God Bless and Keep YOU during these very, very, trying times for you and your family. I will pray for you to hold up. My heart hurts for you for it takes me back to this same experience. Let everyone know whats happening if you can type now.

                • greg (Bible Student)

                  Thanks, Jacqueline.

                  I really appreciate your love and your prayers. Wow! I cannot put into words how good that feels.

                  I’m working on a comment now. I’ll post it just as soon as I am able. It’s a difficult thing to put into words, even harder to put into Christ-like words, harder yet to transform it into something that’s hopefully encouraging to others, and even harder still when I’m currently in the middle of it all. I’m not functioning at my best right now, so I’m going to take my time to choose my words carefully, prayerfully.

                  I would also like to thank you for the brief update on Henry. I’m relieved to hear there is some measure of relief for him, and even some more possible.

                  Yay! \o/

                  -greg

                  • Lee Anthony (Brandon)

                    Greg,
                    I saw the post, I dont know any details but I will keep you and your family in prayer as the Lord certainly knows.
                    Brandon

                    • greg (Bible Student)

                      Brandon,

                      Thanks. And I know it, too. 🙂

                      I will post something more soon.

                      You remain in my prayers, also.

                      -greg

              • Lincoln

                Dear Greg, you wrote:

                ”I meant to clearly address my thanks to ZionsHerald”.
                __________________________________________________

                I understand you and ZionsHerald too, but I was talking about something different in my question.

                Let me say this; we don’t know who God is, but we understand (we say) that God is “Spirit” which we have from the NT, the Greek Scriptures.
                To me “Spirit” is very overwhelming and without any limits until we put limits onto it.
                On the other hand, we say “in heaven”, but where is “heaven”? God “lives” in heaven, but where does God actually live? I don’t know. Therefore I like to comment on the Godhead; God the Father.
                I would like to comments this myself all along.
                ____________________________________________________________

                I was talking about the identification of God JHVH, because of Charles Taze Russell teachings. He wrote:

                ”Jehovah resides on a star called Alcyone in the Pleiades star cluster located in the constellation”.

                http://www.logosapologia.org/the-watchtower-meets-the-pleiadeans/

                So, how do we understand ”the identification” of God? We are humans, but who is God?

                • Anon CJ.

                  Actually I did a search for the word Alcyone in the Third volume of the Studies in the Scriptures. The three occurrences do not in any way say he lives on this star. The website you referenced says that Russell believed this but no where does it say this. You are happy to check for yourself. I also see you hunting the Six Screena site. Please realize that nothing you say to us will shake our faith. Not blindly like the Jaws but we know what we believe to be the truth. Frivolous arguments like the Pleadies mainly come from Rutherford.

                  • Lincoln

                    Dear AnonCJ,

                    Thank you for your comments. You write:

                    “Please realize that nothing you say to us will shake our faith. Not blindly like the Jaws but we know what we believe to be the truth. Frivolous arguments like the Pleiades mainly come from Rutherford”.
                    quote end.

                    Yes, I am sure much overlap to J.F.Rutherford. Allow me to comment this.

                    I hope I will say something you might like and could strengthen your faith in God. You say something about; “not blindly like the Jaws but we know what we believe to be the truth”. Are you saying that ” (I think you mean) the Jews (Jaws) are believing in “blindly” ness? At the same time you state that; “what you believe (we believe) to be the truth”? Well, mostly I think everyone has this conviction “to believing what is “the truth”.

                    To me, I am trying to find out “the nature of God JHVH” that is “who is he”? We are humans, but who is God JHVH?

                    Therefore I quoted Charles Taze Russell; Thy Kingdom Come, on page 321,

                    Our solar system of planets is also found to be revolving together around some other great center; and far beyond the farthest limits of our system, by the aid of the telescope, other suns and systems are discerned, all presumably revolving with ours around some common center, — the group Pleiades.

                    And the reasonable suggestion has been made that that center may be the heaven of heavens, the highest heaven, the >throne of GodThroughout the Scriptures the North seems to be closely associated with Jehovah’s government of the earth<. quote end
                    __________________________________

                    I really could give many more like this about Charles Taze Russell speculations, even the Great Pyramid Giza as calculating all his teachings about Jesus parousia and kingdom in heaven and all the years, 1799, 1884, 1878, 1914; I am just trying to find out how you wiev the Godhead JHVH; who is God.

                    I have this answer myself to my own question: John 4:24 – "God is spirit ……….. "

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXNCNGQvvT0

                    • Anon CJ.

                      Lincoln,
                      Do you mean how you “view” God not how I “wiev” God since you want to correct peoples mistakes.

                      Firstly, I can tell this research doesn’t come for inquiring through the volumes themselves but internet searches for anti-Russell material. The quote you provided at the end of your comment was not from Thy Kingdom Come it was from a reprint
                      “May 15, 1895” under “Biblical Astronomy”.

                      However, it was a reasonable suggestion. Russell knew he didn’t reside on a star. Or a cluster of starts.

                      “I really could give many more like this about Charles Taze Russell speculations, even the Great Pyramid Giza as calculating all his teachings about Jesus parousia and kingdom in heaven and all the years, 1799, 1884, 1878, 1914; I am just trying to find out how you view the Godhead JHVH; who is God.”

                      Russell did not derive these dates by the Great Pyramid.

                      He believed these dates before he studied the Great Pyramid. He never got dates from them. He used the pyramid to back up his claims.

                      It’s so easy to google the negative about everything. We don’t accept everything that it said from Russell. He is not inspired. If you actually read his material you’d find he included differing points of view on matters and wanted to be subjective. Many of his ideas were common in the day. He wrote an article about the “negro” becoming white again. He eve stated that black peoples make the best servants. These were popular ideas in his day. You have to look at where he’s coming from. In fact many of the articles written were not by Russell himself.

                      We can endlessly google info about him. But my suggestion is for you to read the volumes and stop googling garbage about him. We can see that it’s not even in the source they say it is but his words are not gospel. Much of space had not been explored in his day so some “SUGGESTED” (as it says) that it was “REASONABLE” that it was the residence of his throne. And if you do a history search it was common in his day. So learn the context in which things are stated.

                      “Please note that the idea of the center of the universe extending from the Pleiades, and the connection with Job 38:31, did not orignate from Russell, but he notes this as related by Weiss, who, in turn, relates that the idea that the center of the universe was in the Pleiades came from a German astronomer by the name of J. H. Maedler. Earlier in Thy Kingdom Come, on page 321, Russell had stated that “Pleiades is a symbol of God and the center of the universe.”

                      “One, however, should not take the knowledge of astronomy available today, and look back at what Russell wrote so as to condemn Brother Russell in light of later astronomical studies. Many astronomers have come forth with a lot of different theories, some of which have been proven to be erroneous. Russell, of course, denied many times that what he wrote was infallible, yet many seem to seek to condemn him as though he did claim infallibility. Likewise, we do not hold that Brother Russell was any kind of infallible authority on such matters, and thus whether he was right or wrong in his conclusions are actually irrelevant.”

                      http://ctr-rlbible.com/?p=3483

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Anon CJ.

                      Thank you for your comments and your thoughts. I am merely trying to find out who God is. We are humans and who is God.

                      Somehow we come to talk about what Charles Taze Russell wrote and thought and now talking about that I just think about if it is possible to find out. Do you recognize the dates:
                      1799, 1884, 1878, 1914; but nothing happened what he predicted.

                      Further you write (I take some headlines):

                      “He used the pyramid to back up his claims”. – Ok.

                      “Negative” – I don`t want to be negative, but just to find out.

                      “he included differing points of view on matters and wanted to be subjective”– Ok, ”he wanted to be subjective” (you write), but I want to be objektive.

                      “negro” becoming white again. He eve stated that black peoples make the best servants”. – Ok, I did not know that. Shame on him and everyone else.

                      “read the volumes” – I am sorry, but I don’t want to spend my life studying ”his volumes”, why should I do that in the light you put it here:
                      “his words are not gospel” – as I said; then why should I study it when I have ”the Gospel”?

                      “condemn Brother Russell” – I certainly do not condemn Charles Taze Russell.

                      “Russell, of course, denied many times that what he wrote was infallible” – Ok, if you say so.

                      “we do not hold that Brother Russell was any kind of infallible authority on such matters, and thus whether he was right or wrong in his conclusions are actually irrelevant.” – No, I understand you say you do not.

                      So, as I said: the nature of God: “God is Spirit”.

                    • Anon CJ.

                      “Do you recognize the dates:
                      1799, 1884, 1878, 1914; but nothing happened what he predicted.”

                      These are not End-of-the-world dates. How can Russell predict in 1870’s what would happen in 1799? You’re question does not stand in harmony with the History. If you actually studied the volumes (which you said you won’t waste your time doing so you’re just doing to sit in ignorance about what this date means) 1799 was when the authority of the pope over the nations was broken as was shown by the 1260 years from its inception in 539AD. Also, I think you mean 1881 not 1884. This was when he believed the general call was to end to Christendom. Not prediction made. 1878? When the sleeping saints would be resurrected to heaven? So when it says they would be caught up to heaven during his presence (coming) this is not to be seen by the world. So this is not false is we believe that Christ has been gathering his bride from those who have passed on since 1881. 1874? Russell accepted this view after he date had already passed from Nelson Barbour 1914. The date is correct by the expectations were wrong. After the Gentile times ended in 1914 the Balfour Declaration came about in 1917 allowing Israel to return to their homeland. So none of these dates are failures. But if you read the volumes then you’d know this.

                      ““read the volumes” – I am sorry, but I don’t want to spend my life studying ”his volumes”, why should I do that in the light you put it here:“his words are not gospel” – as I said; then why should I study it when I have ”the Gospel”?”

                      – This basically shows that you’re not on here to find out who God is but are here to argue. His words aren’t Gospel. That’s right. But even in the Bible they had people explaining what things meant. And it’s of different than accepting what “Pastoe says”. But that you just said shows you’re not looking for God but are looking to refute us. Which you’re doing a poor job doing. Googling arguments that we’ve already been through. You’ve googled your arguments with out-of-context quotes but never went to the source.

                      “Russell, of course, denied many times that what he wrote was infallible” – Ok, if you say so.”

                      Yes I say so. Here’s what he said about it.
                      “Neither must you lean upon the DAWN and the TOWER as infallible teachers. If it was proper for the early Christians to prove what they received from the apostles, who were and who claimed to be inspired, how much more important it is that you fully satisfy yourself that these teachings keep closely within their outline instructions and those of our Lord;–since their author claims no inspiration, but merely the guidance of the Lord, as one used of him in feeding his flock.
                      ***

                      Indeed, time and again I have seen that the teachings of those who make utterances of their own, but in the name of Christ, by claimed inspiration, or special revelations, or boasted wisdom (which is the real spirit of popery), and without proof from the Scripture, are received by many. And I am confident that the DAWN and TOWER would have many more friends and believers if they followed this (popery’s) course;–for as some one has said, “People prefer to be humbugged.” But such a course I dare not follow; I must be true to the Lord and declare his Word, and let him take charge of the consequences. -1893; letter written by Pastor Russell, published in “The Watch Tower”, June, 1893 pg. 168

                      So please. Take your “I’m-looking-for-God” somewhere else. You’re not looking for him. You’re looking to try to refute us. Like when atheists comes with their questions about God when it’s a question intended to refute. Sorry. Your tricks don’t work here.

                    • Lincoln

                      Anon CJ.
                      July 8, 2017 at 4:36 pm

                      Dear AnonCJ

                      sorry for your letter to me and the things you say. But, we live in a world where we have “free speech” and so does you. The things you say is not what I intend, but I …… Sorry, I have no intention of what you accuse me for.

                      So, what can I say to you? God bless you.

                    • Anon CJ.

                      Yes and I used my free speech toward you to call out your “I’m searching for God” scheme. You aren’t in here to search for God. You’re in here to refute us and as what you said we have free speech. Well there was mine. That’s like an atheist going in to a church to debate and say “I’m just trying to find God”

                    • Anon CJ.

                      Thank you for your words. It’s one thing to want to dialogue about God but another to take what we believe and try to refute us. Trying to google quotes and use them against us is a whole other matter. Russell never claimed to be inspired. Sure he said some wrong things. Has every teacher or pastor in the past had it correct? Of course not. Dialogues are one thing. Trying to refute our religion is another.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Hi Lincoln this is Jacqueline. I think Greg is referring to something different than what you are speaking about. He and I are talking by email and he is having a difficult personal experience now.
                  Often there are many conversations going on at one time. I think he is speaking to Zions herald and the part you quoted, I actually copied and pasted it from his comment rather than him having 2. I will go and post it just as presented and maybe it will make sense.

                  • Lincoln

                    Dear Jacqueline, thank you for your comment. I really appreciate the comments from the brothers (and sisters, mostly brothers).

                    It is so interesting for me to read the comments. It is like ”old times” I have read about.

                    I know, we cannot bring that time back, but glad to speak to all of you. So, Jacqueline this is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF3SYLaYFG4

                    Through It All.

                    You are forever in my life
                    You see me through the seasons
                    Cover me with Your hand
                    And lead me in Your righteousness
                    And I look to You
                    And I wait on You

                    I’ll sing to You, Lord, a hymn of love
                    For Your Faithfulness to me
                    And I’m carried in everlasting arms
                    You’ll never let me go through it all
                    You are forever in my life
                    You see me through the seasons
                    Cover me with Your hand
                    And lead me in Your righteousness
                    And I, I look to You, oh
                    And I wait on You

                    I’ll sing to You, Lord, a hymn of love
                    For Your Faithfulness to me
                    And I’m carried in everlasting arms
                    You’ll never let me go, I will sing

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Dear Lincoln, Jesus understands that we need to know God! So he said: They own everything together. Listen and follow him in the Gospels and you will get to know who God is. especially read the last quoted text of John 17: 20 below.
                      John 14:9New International Version (NIV)

                      9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
                      Dr. Stanley is an older TV minister here in the United States and he said something the other day that stuck with me. He said God loves for us to talk to him and we should do it always. I do it and it helps me to get to know so much. I connect with him. Listen to John 12: – 18 and get to know God. Jesus makes a mighty prayer to God His Father and ours. He is like God, he is faithful to his father and imitates him. Listen to the book of John 20 times especially 14:-17 until you know the words by HEART and it WILL hit you. That the Father was connected to him as he says to his apostles: so he reflected the image of what type of person God was while in the flesh after the Holy Spirit descended at his baptism.
                      12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” Jesus has been appointed or put over all of God’s belongings.
                      He told them that he had to go away for them to receive the Spirit and they would also have an access that they never had before, “IN HIS NAME”

                      23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
                      25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
                      John 17:
                      20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
                      Take Care

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Jacqueline,

                      Thank you very much your encouragements. I agree to the words you quote from the Apostle John.

                      ”Listen to the book of John 20 times especially 14:-17 until you know the words by HEART and it WILL hit you. ”That the Father was connected to him as he says to his apostles: so he reflected the image of what type of person God was while in the flesh after the Holy Spirit descended at his baptism.”

                      12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
                      “IN HIS NAME”
                      John 17:

                      20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. ”
                      quote end.

                      So Jacqueline; within the ”realm” of Jesus words we try to understand God and his ”togetherness” with Jesus. The question remains; was God within Jesus as God at the same time we know Jesus was Human?

                      The Christian world believes that. Yes, Jesus was a human, but was conceived by the Holy Spirit. So, this human person Jesus was something more than a human which he also proved along his life.

                      So, when we pray to Jesus and speak to Jesus (and the Holy Spirit as well) we pray and speak to JHVH, the Holy God of the Jews/ Israel.

                      In the Christian world and faith there is no other options. It looks like to me that within the whole world, the name Jesus is what is changing people’s hearts.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuuZMg6NVeA

                      Every praise is to our God.
                      Every word of worship with one accord
                      Every praise every praise is to our God.
                      Sing hallelujah to our God
                      Glory hallelujah is due our God
                      Every praise every praise is to our God.
                      Every praise is to our God.
                      Every word of worship with one accord
                      Every praise every praise is to our God.
                      Sing hallelujah to our God
                      Glory hallelujah is due our God
                      Every praise every praise is to our God.
                      God my Savior
                      God my Healer
                      God my Deliverer
                      Yes He is, yes He is
                      God my Savior
                      God my Healer
                      God my Deliverer
                      Yes He is, yes He is
                      God my Savior
                      God my Healer
                      God my Deliverer
                      Yes He is, yes He is, yes He is, yes He is
                      Yes He is, yes He is, yes He is, yes He is

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Anon CJ.

                      No, I am not (I will quote you) “searching for God” scheme. You aren’t in here to search for God”.
                      Quote end.

                      That is quite true.

                      And, NO I am not here to (I will quoste you) ”You’re in here to refute us” and it is not like ”That’s like an atheist going in to a church to debate and say “I’m just trying to find God”. quote end.

                      Why is it not so? Because I have found God. I really have found God and I am happy for that. Why am I here?

                      Well, after many years with Jehovah`s Witnesses I met you Biblestudents both in history and here. I have heard about you all my life, as followers of Charles Taze Russell teachings, but I now understand that he did not teach anything about ”the end of world in 1914” and that the ”thousand years should begin in 1914” (Paradise on earth) or the other dates I gave you.

                      So, I am a little confused. I am glad you could help me to realise Charlse Taze Russell did not.

                      When I say ”I found God”, I ment I have found Jesus. I have no dates as when the end of the world will be and about a Kingdom in Heaven. I do not have a messeage to you that you are wrong because I trust in the free will.

                      I am not to judge anyone, but I believe in sharing the Gospel and we should all respect each other. Therefore I do respect you very much and it was my hope we could share our faith in Jesus together.

                      This is very difficult to say. Do I believe in God? Yes, I do, but do I have to prove it?

                      What does it mean to ”believe in God”?

                      Here, ZionsHerald was giving information on the qualities we give God, which we take from the Bible, the Holy Book of the Jews and the God of the Jews.

                      Somehow we have decided to do the same, believe in the Holy Book of the Jews and accept the God of the Jews.

                      So, what does it mean to believe in the Jewish God JHVH as a Christian? Is it possible?

                      When we read the history of the Jews and the beginning, Abraham, Isac and Jacob we also comes to Moses and the Israelites and the 10 commandments.

                      Parts of the history of the Jews (Israelites) we don`t accept as something we should do since we live in a different time and culture. We have done such as our behaviour of other races and peopole in different parts of the world and today we regret it. (I hope).

                      But we are not Jews, but have taken the Holy Book of the Jews and the God of the Jews as our God and what does it mean? Are the Jews ok? Are we ok? Should there be a distinction even among ourselves? Is the other person who calls himself a Christian as good as we are?

                      Am I, a born again Christian just as good as The Biblestudents and how about Jehovah`s Witnesses or the Catholic Church? Even if we have different views on many things, who is right and wrong?

                      Who does God love and who does God not love? Does God love his people, the Chosen People, the Jews?

                      Could it be that we all are welcome with God? That God loves all people (as my wife says) and wants us to live together in peace and harmony even with some differences?

                      What would happen if we decided to do? Accepting each other and started to live in peace and harmony? How could it be possible?

                      I think (thinking about the qualities ZionsHerald pointet out about God) if we were to cultivating those qualities all over in all the different denominations and churches, we could go a long way.

                      So, even if I don`t belong to the Biblestudents or Jehovah`s Witnesses or not member of the Chatolic Church (as one of my daughters) then I am just as much God’s child and God loves me just as much? Did Jesus give life to me, even so?

                      Why did Charles Taze Russell start the Biblestudents movement? Why did J.F.Rutherford brand Jehovah`s Witnesses? Promising ”everlasting life on earth? Was it the time, the Great Depression that gave a vacuum for this new religion?

                      Why did Ellen G. White start the Adventist movement? How about Joseph Smith? How about all the others? How about William J. Seymour and the Azusa Street Revival? How about Martin Luther King?

                      What happened to the Azusa Street Revival? What has happened afterwards?

                      Well, this movement has gone on ever since. It is interesting that this happened at the same time as Charles Tazse Russell gave his contribution.

                      It began with a meeting on April 9, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915. The revival was characterized by ecstatic spiritual experiences accompanied by claims of physical healing miracles, dramatic worship services, speaking in tongues, and inter-racial mingling. The participants were criticized by the secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century. Quote end.

                      So, Anon CJ. There is a hunger and a thirst for Jesus, but very few workers available. I don’t know who is going to study with these millions who are so hungry for God, our God, the Jews God JHVH now in this new revelation of Jesus. So, in the meantime there is only one possible hope: prayer. Ask the Holy Spirit to comfort these millions all over the world reached by the Evangelists who God has given possible mission. Hope and joy in the midst of poverty and death.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBtBHZtdU78

                      Anon CJ, I bless you.

                    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                      Lincoln I agree there is not a religious group on the earth today with all truth. God has blessed many people and aided them to carry his word to the masses. He loves them as he loves me. (John 3:16) I study the Bible and learn something new each time. Holy Spirit helps me. I associate with a group of fellow Christians and study the Bible in freedom. I can ask questions and we all try to dig and get a satisfying answer.
                      Within this association some are more adherent to Br. Russell’s writings some are not. I respect his contribution as i believe God leaps mankind knowledge by providing or spurring men. Electricity, phone, discovery of bacteria and thus vaccines etc. All of these people doing this are God’s children . Jesus calls him Our Father.
                      That is why I listen to many voices. Here I learn from comments like yours and others.
                      I don’t attack other religions, even letting witnesses be a witness if they want. It is no worse to me than any other organization like some you mentioned. Some people like a lot of restrictions, thinking this makes them holier than anybody else.
                      Often some leave the witnesses but retain the strict order of all believe exactly. Normally when that is the case only one or a few are thinking. There are however certain core beliefs in the Bible that are clear. I can still converse for discussion with most religions. I find it difficult however to converse or discuss with witnesses and therefore I refrain from doing so. I only speak with a witness on spiritual matters if they approach me and even then i say little and just listen. All religious persons are welcome here as long as we respect each other and are not trying to take advantage of any on here with pleads for money or hook ups with companions.
                      Those are just a few of the small guide lines for this site.
                      BTW: I found another of you comments in pending and I will go release it now. I think the program sees a phrase or word in your links and kicks I to be looked at first before posting. Take care of yourself and guard your relationship with your wife and daughter. So glad to see you allow them to have their beliefs. Jesus will finish putting his administration together soon and then start educating all of mankind so we can truly call him Father and mankind are proven loyal sons.

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Jacqueline,

                      Thanks for your fine comments on mine. Thank you very much. I agree with you. In this way we can really communicate across the streets.

                      God bless you.

    • Daz

      Hi there Wild Olive, thankyou kindly, I am glad you enjoyed my comments, hope they helped swell. I also enjoyed reading your reply & your experience with your Greek friends use of dialogue, very interesting, also your take on how you researched the trinity.
      Thankyou for sharing with us.

      Warm & loving regards,
      Daz

    • Jeff

      I find some of the arguments used in support of the doctrine lacking in their respective contexts.

      An example.

      In Isaiah 9:6-7 Jesus is called the Mighty God, so therefore he must be God. However, Jesus is also called the Everlasting Father in the same context. So there you have it. No strict Trinitarian will ever agree that Jesus is the Father. They would identify Jesus as Father-like instead. Then why not make him god-like in the same context?

  • Daz

    I found this interesting, it really proves the importance & origins of Jesus when you read the meaning of the word “Begotten”: begot or (Archaic) begat; begotten or begot; begetting.
    1.
    (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
    2.
    to cause; to produce.

    • Jacqueline

      Hi Daz, yes in the Bible when beget or begotten is used it is different to me from like Adam being created. It is like a birth. Even in the animal kingdom we see different types of birthing methods so I know Jehovah’s producing of his son was different from like us. This is my belief and opinion.

      • Daz

        Hi Jacqueline I hope you are keeping well, yes I have also come to that conclusion & belief, Jesus came forth from his father (begotten), he has not been created separately like the other angels but he is a part of the Father just as woman is a part of man, the rib of Adam was taken & so forth woman was formed, she was not created from nothing but from part of a man, I believe it is it a similar concept regarding our lord Jesus. It all makes sense to me now, especially when Jesus said that he & his father are one, just as when a married couple become one. If only trinitarians would see this then they would understand Jesus Christ & his place & origins & would see that he is not the father & the father is not him but just as Jesus said “The father is in me & I am in the father”. EVERYTHING was created through him. I get it now, Jesus is the same as Jehovah because he came from Jehovah just as my son came from me BUT Jehovah the Father is the head & has all authority, this shows that Jesus is in subjection to his Father.

        Warm & loving regards,
        Daz

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Good comments. It is amazing the complexity of details that some Trinitarian defenders will present to passionately defend this doctrinal view. If one hunts around the Bible enough and manipulates Greek and Hebrew grammar enough, he/she can come up with supposed evidence to support just about anything idea. This is why it is so important to each person to pray to Jehovah for guidance (Luke 11:13; John 16:13), make an honest and thorough study of each topic and seek total harmonization of the topic from Genesis to Revelation. This is why our study never ends. We are always learning and adding to hopefully an established scriptural foundation.

          On Trinity, another related topics impacted and contradicted is that Jesus was fully a man on earth (1 Tim 2:5) and as such could provide the Ransom price (“Anti-Lutron” A perfect man Jesus in place of a perfect man Adam). The Trinity views Jesus as a combination of both God and man at the same time when he was with his disciples on earth.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, thankyou kindly for replying to my post. I agree with you regarding trinitarians, myself personally I just can’t see the logic in what they believe, I never have. What I have recently discovered regarding the origin of Jesus has made parts of the puzzle manifest & fit togther for me. The references I found & examples which I posted up really harmonize with one another. Certain wording & phrasing are obviously apparant in the bible for our benefit as it gives us the real meaning of what Jehovah’s & Jesus’ words are saying to the full, this is why it should not be changed, added or taken away. I am just amazed by the revelations I am experiencing, it’s so awesome!

            Warm & loving regards,
            Daz

        • Reidys

          I have never before seen things in that way. But your words made me think. Greetings! I am sorry for my english. It is not my mother language

          • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

            Reid’s hello and thanks for commenting. How did you find the site? Tell me are you a witness? They also believe Christ was created. But some religions don’t because they believe he is just another aspect or face of God.
            What do you think about the armageddon articles? I was totally impressed when I learned about it not being judgment day for individuals but instead on the system structures and different forms of government.
            I always felt if God would get rid of corrupt government most at armageddon would welcome a full one world rule so ALL humans could benefit. I never saw the reason to kill little families and all because they never listened to the governingbody rulers of the witnesses.

  • Jesus is God him self. He is the son of God

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