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WHERE IS THE GREAT CROWD?

INTRODUCTION:

Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.

Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.

‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)

Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.

WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:

Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites

Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’

Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’

Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.

The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else.  The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5.  Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.

WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.

COUNTER ARGUMENTS:

Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .

Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.

The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.

It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.

It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).

However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)

This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.

Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).

CONTEXT:

‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’

This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.

Revelation 14

1 ¶  Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

2  And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.

3  And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.

Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.

‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)

The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’

What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.

Revelation 6:11  And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?

‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)

This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.

‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’

Revelation 22

11  He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.

12  Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.

In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’

Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.

At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.

‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17

The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’

Revelation 19:8  And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 19:14  And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.

BEFORE THE THRONE:

The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.

Revelation 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:

. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)

In  1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality.  They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.

Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.

The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!

John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’

Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!

Revelation 22:17  ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’

There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)

The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?

This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.

NO NEED OF THE SUN:

. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)

In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.

This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live

SURVIVORS:

We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.

In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.

Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)

Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’

There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.

As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:

‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’  6/1/1953 WT

Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.

‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)

I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?

These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).

‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.

The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.

‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9

I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.

‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)

Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.

‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).

This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.

The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’

‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67

Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.

‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74

An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.

‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.

This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.

‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT

‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT

‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT

I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.

The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9

The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)

‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).

The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.

The song which both sing are similar.

‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)

‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)

Amen!

Contributed by Jeff Mezera

165 comments to WHERE IS THE GREAT CROWD?

  • Hi there and everywhere faithful-to-Jehovah-ones,

    Great Crowd, eh? Well, to make it short:

    They are those of the anointed 144000 chosen still alive on planet earth when all of them, dead or alive, are about to be taken heavenward to be the kingdom of the 1000 years promised that original little flock of Jesus’ disciples.

    The wording in Thessalonian is critical, but to save me waffling on here and rewriting matters already dealt with on my site, but before I allow myself toplace theurls here, with kind indulgence of JW-friends admin, here is the most definitive quote from the Great Crowd page of my site:

    ” One can almost feel the anxious struggle of translators as they tried to come to grips with the ambiguities that arise from trying to match text with doctrine.

    Some Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses to be exact, hold that the Kingdom was established in 1914. Not true!

    That false 1914 Kingdom establishment doctrine automatically infers that those of Jesus’ brothers already dead have been resurrected and that those remaining on earth in responsible positions in that JW denomination already have a measure of authority to rule over a congregation that has somehow and inexplicably expanded beyond the authorized number revealed in Revelation 7:4 and 14:1. Likewise untrue.

    Between the key sentences:

    Revelation 6:11: they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52: dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed;
    (yes those of the anointed dead raised and those still alive at the same time)

    and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: . . .and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together* with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air .
    * Or, “at the same time.” NWT footnote

    there is definitely no resurrection by instalments meant here or anywhere for those called to heavenly governance. In fact, Jesus’ Prophecy about the greatest tribulation ever to befall Israel both in duration and intensity, indicated what was to occur at its end:” – end of quote.

    May I beg the ‘friends’ administrators’ indulgence and also post that site address here for greater depth: http://www.sanctifyname.com/greatcrowd.html with a complementary page to lighten the load: http://www.sanctifyname.com/stranger.html.

    Dieter G.

  • max

    Sharon;

    The Pastor wrote,”Of these who have assumed this obligation there are two classes. There is one class who will do all they have covenanted to do all they havecovenanted to do. These will receive the reward. (2 John 8) Then there is the other class, who having made the same covenant, fail to fulfill their contract. R5948 page 261

  • max

    Sorry to see no one had a single thing to share on the man of God mentioned in Kings. Three things came to mind. We many times don’t know all the details. So when we way what he did compared to what king David did, it might seen unfair. Also Jonah the prophet turn and ran. He like David did not get killed by a lion. The great fish barfed him up so he lived. And then when Jehovah spared Nineveh, he had a temper tantram. But remember what Jehovah told him? Last verse,”And for my part, ought I not feel sorry for Nineveh the great city, in which there exist more than one hundred and twenty thousand men who do not at all know the difference between their right hand and their left, besides many domestic animals.”

    And remember all the miles Jonah walked? How did he eat? And the man of God had one thing not to do. Don’t stop and eat. And he was killed by a lion. Did not Jesus assure us his Father will give food to all his worshippers, so it was not like the man of God would never eat again.

    So what can we today, who are at the end of this system get from this? “Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.” 1 Pe 5:8

    And if we find we have been thrown into the darkness outside we are then close to being devoured? Mt 25:30

    So again I will plead for some imput back. And 3 new verses will be up for discussion.

    Jer 14:21,”Remember; do not break your covenant with us.” 15:1,”And Jehovah proceeded to say to me: “If Moses and Samuel were standing before me, my soul would not be towards this people.”

    Eze 16:59,”For this is what the Sovereign Lord has said,’I also must do with you just as you have done, because you despised the oath in breaking my covenant.” Read Eze 17 then compare Luke 23:31

    Zech 11:10,”and I cut it to pieces, in order to break my covenant that I had concluded with all the peoples.”

  • max

    As to my using Pastor’s references to Heb 6:4-6 and when he said that to be cast into the darkness you had to be in the light, Please consider the following.

    Please read, 1 Ki 13:1-32; 2 Ki 23:16-18

    How does this sheep effect you? Make you happy? Got what he deserved? Or do you hope the next time you read it, it will have a different outcome? Do you think he will get a resurrection? Does it touch you as to doing Jehovah’s will? What would you say to him, if you met him at the resurrection? What do you think about the prophet who tricked him?

    Before any info is put forth by me, I hope to see about 5 different ones express what they think. There are no right or wrong answers, just speak from the heart.

    Thank you, max

  • max

    Morning all;

    Have you heard of the 300 injured in Romania? Am I from Romania? No. But about 12 years ago a man named either Bill or Bob had the best and most accurate knowledge of the teachings of Pastor Russell. He may have had a female helper, but I am not sure.

    A couple things may have occured. Passed away, or shut down. Because of his extensive knowledge, I believe he may have passed.

    Now with the issue Jeff brings up. Lets consider a few things. It was mentioned that we would learn war no more and JW,s have done so out of all the nations they come from. Is 2:4 And Re 13:10 shows that in the last days those who fight will have bad results. Fleshly Israel still wars. Some said Isaiah referred to after Armageddon. Here is why I don’t belief that.

    Isaiah 61:1-11 Please read. 1. Do you all think that happened to Israel? If yes then lets say about 537 B.C.E. it started with fleshly Israel.
    2. Do you all agree it was also done in Jesus day? Read Luke 4:16-21 Now do you all agree with Acts 2:1-47 that the new covenant was in effect? Jer 33:31-33 When Jesus fulfiilled Is 61 was not his message and work to prepare those who came into the new covenant? So wouldn’t they now follow the example of their Master? “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives.”
    3. So do you all agree, Isaiah’s prophecy went right along with the anointed Christains? Note Pauls words years later,”For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.” 2 Cor 6:2
    4.”James, a slave of God.” Jam 1:1 Jude 1,”Jude a slave.” Now when Re 1:1 was given to John those two slaves were dead. “to show his slaves” “to his slave John” Re 1:10, brings us to the last days which have been going on now for some time. Remember Noah a preacher of righteousness. 2 Pe 2:5 About 120 years maybe. Today maybe more maybe less. But we are deep into it. Just like ducks when they head south they see the times and know winter is coming . Likewise the signs Jesus gave us, there is no excuse not to see it.
    5. Acts 10:38 please read,showing what we said about him. Compare Ps 2:2 Ps 22:26; 34:2; Mt 11:5
    6.One can see that those slaves living in the last days will be saying, Come. RE 22:17 So Isaish’s inspired words continue right on.

  • max

    Will get back to all next week. Take care.

    • jacqueline

      Okay, Max. See you later.Monday is a holiday and family is off work and school. I am off to the Boat and RV show myself today. Take Care and enjoy your weekend all.

  • max

    Sorry you got so easily offended. I have seen many, many, many, say Jesus is dear to them. I a;so see there hipcocicy. Now I didn’t say that About Jaqu;in. I think she new fully well that through our discussion I am not impressed by anyone, nor do I expect it.

    It is supose to be a place where we share our fellings and beliefs, agree or disagree. You ack as though I am the WTBS. Guess what? They have nothing to do with my posts. Those Bible verses are there from Jehovah, and it happened to be spoken by his Son and recorded by a man named Mathhew. You got a problem with it? Take it up with them or show me your authority as to how you will stop me from using the Bible. Although that is getting closer then you think.

    Check this headline.

    Catholic Church Says Government Denying Religious Freedoms

    They are speaking out against the presidents administration. They have had several failed court battles.

    The Cardinal reasons,”there some things we don’t do but that should be respected because its always been expected.”

    But he is not getting his way and watch was else is coming.

    Dec 27,2011

    • Jacqueline

      Max, I am so glad Sharon commented. It gave you the opportunity to explain yourself. Remember you have nearly 5,000 people in a month visiting over 6500 times, from excess of 124 countries. So you have to speak as if you are talking to a lot of people.I didn’t quite know what you meant but now I understand why you used the 2 scriptures. Your explanation makes sense now. Discussion and communication straightens everything out. I actually thought you meant that Christ was no big deal.But instead you meant many say it and it does not effect a change in them. I still think it is a wake up call to me to let it make a difference in my life. It really has made me a better person. I see people not as fodder to die at armageddon but humans made in the image of God that should be given a real chance to know the truth and make an informed decision. All religions today present sometimes opposite thoughts on the same scripture, but at least they try as we all try as we go back and forth. However because of this confusion, I don’t think Gehenna should hold anyone on what religion is teaching them. That’s why learning about a Ransom for ALL of Adam’s descendants reflects justice. We are all dying because of Adam now (sheol), and to say people go to Gehenna because of what witnesses teach is unthinkable. The doctrine changes constantly, of course only JW say you have to be with an earthly org. so I am not to worried about that. I just mention it in passing. Jesus and what the ransom really means has changed my life Max. Accepting Jesus will allow holy spirit to operate in your life, I have seen and experienced it as so many others have. Take Care and glad to clear up matters. In Christ’ love. Jacqueline

  • max

    I sent that off early Jeff because I had it done and lost it.

    Here is one of my new points why we are not understanding each other.

    Going to give some information that I have received and read.

    Regards to what I will show in a bit.

    1. That was written to the Hebrews because they kept going back to the law. In other words it is meaningless for me. Contrer! 2 Tim 3:16,17; Ro 15:4
    2. That was in Three Worlds and Russell didn’t write any of it, so he doesn’t believe it.
    3. Several not acknowledgements on the verses.

    So they are. Vol I p. “But those who willfully reject him and his work.” Reject who? And what is the work? “after coming to a clear,full knowledge thereof, are in danger of the second death.” HEB 6:4-8;10:26-31 p. 198,”-unless there be a falling away.-1 Cor 15:49; Heb 6:6

    Vol iii p.203 and 204,”cast into outer darkness”? Who was he talking about? “must have first been in the light” Next page,”all of whom have once clearly appreciated the ransom, and while so appreciating it had. Whith what care? “guard against the merest suggestion to a stap so disloyal, udjust and disastrous.” Heb 10:26-31; 6:4-8 He then says “the testing of their appreciation of the wedding robe”. 205,”some of those already in are proving themselves unworthy to stay in.” WOW!

    Vol VI P.368,630,166,”a fallfrom which it would be impossible to be recovered.” Heb 6:4-6; 10:26Heb 6:4-6,”It is for us to know the fulfillment of these Scriptures and to have no fellowship with such unfruitful works of darkness, but rather to reprove them, and to withdraw ourselves from the company of those who walk not after the teachings of the Apostle and who hold not the faith once delivered to the saints, nor its spirit, for all such are on Satan’s side, oppenents of the Lord and his plan, of which the Atonement , the Ransom, is the center or hub.” 2 Pe 2:21; 2 Thess 3:6; Jude 3

    He shows the falling away on 166 and 167 of that book. He does not have this read and believe what you want attitude. They read his stuff and were enlightened, but eventually gave it up, believe what they want. He says, have nothing to do with them.

    And yet people say he didn’t care what you believed and you don’t need unity.

    Write now I am in the process of contacting a Bible student in another country. None of there newsletters have God’s name. Sad, for those who think they are following the Pastor’s teachings. On the other hand a freind of yours Dupin can attest that on another forum the leader RR blast the Dawn Bible Students.

    According to Russell, those divisions show that they are no longer in and will end up the foolish virgins.

    Have a good week-end!

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