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DOES JESUS HAVE A BODY OF FLESH?

DEFINITION OF SPIRIT

pneuma ^4151^ primarily denotes “the wind” (akin to pneo, “to breathe, blow”); also “breath”; then, especially “the spirit,” which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.  (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

HEAVEN AND IT’S OCCUPANTS ARE INVISIBLE

Col 1:16: For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  (NKJ)

2 Cor 4:18: while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (NKJ)

CHRISTIANS GET A SPIRIT BODY IN THE RESURRECTION

John 3:6-8, 13   “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit…  No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.  (NKJ)

1 Cor 15:40:  There are also celestial [heavenly] bodies, and bodies terrestrial [earthly]: but the glory of the celestial [heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [earthly] is another. (KJV)

1 Cor 15:44:  It is sown [we are born in] a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  (NKJ)

I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (NKJ) [Since Jesus has a spirit body, then so will we since we are to be like him]

ANGLES ARE INVISIBLE SPIRITS

Heb 1:7, 14 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”  Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (NKJ)

Mark 12:25 “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [in heaven everything is invisible]  (NKJ)

II Ki 6:15-17 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my masTer! What shall we do?”  So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”  And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.  (NKJ)

Acts 8:6-7 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.  For unclean spirits [fallen angels], crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.  (NKJ)   [No one could see these fallen angels.  They were invisible.]

Mark 1:23-27 Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit [fallen angel]. And he cried out,  saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are– the Holy One of God!”  But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!”  And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.  Then they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? What new doctrine is this? For with authority He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”  (NKJ)

GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

John 4:24 God is Spirit…(NKJ)

Col 1:15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God…  (NKJ)

1 Tim 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.   (NKJ)

Exod 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”  (NKJ)

John 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12: No one has seen God at any time. (NKJ)

JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

1 Pet 3:18 being put to death in deed in flesh, But made alive in spirit Rotherham

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; (NKJ) (2 Cor 1:3 – “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” KJV)

1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit. (KJV)

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  (NKJ) [compare “image” with 1 Cor 15:49]

1 Cor 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Jesus] is the Lord from heaven.   As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  (KJV)

Acts 9:1-9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest  and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.  And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”  And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”  So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” And the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”  And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.  Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.  And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.  (NKJ)

SPIRIT BEINGS IN HEAVEN DO NOT HAVE BODIES OF FLESH

1 Cor 15:49-50 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.   (KJV)

Luke 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”  [When Jesus or an angel materializes, they temporarily leave their spirit state, and occupy a body of flesh.  That’s how angels ate a meal with Abraham, how the fallen angels conceived children through woman, and how Thomas was able to touch and feel Jesus after his resurrection.] (NKJ)

HOW DID JESUS DISCIPLES RECOGNIZE HIM AFTER HIS RESURRECTION?

Luke 24:35 [The two disciples on the road to Emmaus]  And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.  (NKJ)

Mark 16:12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.  (NKJ)

John 20:14-17 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.   Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”   Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).   (NKJ)

John 21:1-13 After these things Jesus showed Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and in this way He showed Himself:   Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together.   Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.” They said to him, “We are going with you also.” They went out and immediately got into the boat, and that night they caught nothing.   But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus.   Then Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?” They answered Him, “No.”  [They didn’t recognize his voice.]   And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.  Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it), and plunged into the sea.   But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish.   Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread.   Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.”   Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.   Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”– knowing that it was the Lord.  [If he looked like Jesus, why would they even consider asking?]   Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish.   (NKJ)

HOW DO WE EXPLAIN REV 1:7?

Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.  (NKJ)  [They will see him through the evidences of his return, beginning at the time of Israel’s deliverance (Eze 38:22,23; 39:6,7,27)]

Heb 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,  choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.  (NKJ)

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,  (NKJ)

THE WORLD WON”T SEE JESUS WHEN HE RETURNS

John 14:19 A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.   (NKJ)

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: (NKJ)

I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.  (NKJ)  [This promise is made to the Christians, not the world.]

John 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”  (NKJ)  [Since he gave his flesh as the ransom (corresponding) price in place of Adam, he cannot take it back.]

ARE THESE SCRIPTURES LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  (KJV)

II Th 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angelsIn flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  (KJV)

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (KJV)

Rev 19:11-16 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  (NKJ)

The only way to harmonize these four scriptures is to take them symbolically.  Otherwise they contradict each other.  These scriptures are explained in detail in the Studies in the Scriptures series.

143 comments to DOES JESUS HAVE A BODY OF FLESH?

  • Lincoln

    Will you kindly allow me to give a comment here?

    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and “Godhead”, so that they are without excuse, (NKJ)

    Colossians 2:9 …. to “Christ”.  For in him “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”,

    Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God’s divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

    In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the one and only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, >who is himself GodGod brings his firstborn into the world<, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    7 In speaking of the angels he says,
    “He makes his angels spirits,
    and his servants flames of fire.”

    8 "But about the Son" he says,
    “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

    10 He also says,
    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
    But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”
    quote end.

    I hope not you will be angry of me for sending this comment.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Lincoln, we are not trinitarians, we don’t really mind if you are. You however need to have a strong belief in what you believe and stop trying to push your belief on others when you know they have never been nor will believe in the trinity.
      Although you claim to have left the witnesses you retained one of their most annoying qualities. Not having the ability to allow others freedom of religion, freedom of conscience and freedom from having your doctrine pushed down others throats. Just believe it yourself and be confident within yourself. If you thought you could convince us I could see this but you want to argue and people don’t have time to waste arguing with a trinitarian. It is futile and you guys just can’t take that someone don’t accept your beliefs and you aren’t satisfied with just believing it yourself.
      Do you do this to other websites? There has got to be hundreds of trinitarian sites therefore we are not depriving you of your association with like minded people.
      You aren’t on here to discuss, you come on here to push your agenda. An agenda that no one wants to hear. We ask you to please stop, you are a spammer almost Lincoln. Thank you, Jacqueline
      PS: Others haven’t seen all of your comments on which this summation is based.

      • Lincoln

        Dear Jaqueline,

        Sorry for your strong words to me. I didn’t mean anything wrong by my writing here. I am writing because I was invited and I thought we could talk about everything.

        The reason for my last letter was because I read the debate about Jesus is he, flesh and blod (bone); and about likely you people are not sure if God’s Kingdom is on the planet Earth or where and you also say the Kingdom (the 144.000) should govern from this planet Earth. I read a long debate about this question and thought I could contribute as well.

        So, therefore I`d like to discussing this with you. But I can se, that you are not at all interested in talking to me since I am a Christian and realise that God has defined himself in many ways and in my understanding as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

        You are right in that I was former JW, but that does not mean that I don’t respect you belief in the teachings of Charles Taze Russell. Looking back in my time (40 years) with JW, I don’t have bad expeíresnses, but I remember very good times, but when I met Jesus personally I thought I could use this rebirth in the Kingdom Hall. I was wrong, I could not and therefore I had to leave.

        I left with pain because of my family and all my friends I more the less lost and they would not talk to me anymore.

        I have known the Bible Students all my life from history and since the Internet I thought we could debate things, but I can see we cannot. That I cannot do anything about, but I would never call you ”names” as you do to me (spammer). A person who spam the Internet is a person who is not invited and as I can see on your site, we who read the articles are invited to share our understanding and beliefs.

        So, when I could see you were not sure of ”things” I thought I could discussing it with you. I remember reading from old times how Charles Taze Russell debated with people who had their own beliefs. And furthermore, we also know from history we must listen to others with another understanding of things and that is the way we have changed history, we became more clever in our understanding (for example how to live together mixed races; the utmost effort of Martin Luther King teachings on basis of the Bible)

        Many things we were so sure of before in history, we have changed. So we undergo a development all the time.

        But me writing here is not to try to convince you or anybody else that you are wrong and should change but to try to understand you and myself.

        But I will leave you with my best wishes of God Blessing you.

        Lincoln

        • Anon CJ.

          Lincoln. Get over yourself. Stop playing the victim. You’re “questions” are just trying to refute us. I used to debate the trinity. I could refute any passage with Greek or Hebrew and Sharps rule. I’m well versed in Trinitarian scholars and what they will say. But you’re not looking for an open discussion. You have your beliefs and you write them in the form of a question to show us we are wrong. You’re trying to make us go “whoa I didn’t see that before maybe is is right”. It’s not going to happen. The Holy Spirit called us to what we believe and you cannot convince me otherwise. You go on websites and find stuff to trap us with about Russell and then try to phrase it in a question to make it look like you’re wanting to learn. Like a hard core atheist would do to a Christian. Like them saying “I want to know aborh God. Now prove him” You have to be willing to look into all aspects before trying to refute someone . When I I studied Mormonism I went to their church I had their standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pear of Great Price) and I went to their Sunday schools and studied with the missionaries I had a vast amount of Mormon friends.. Then I could actually talk to someone about Mormonism. No googling needed. Our main books aside from the Bible are the studies in the scriptures. I asked you to read them and you basically said you didn’t want to waste your time. So googling what we believe isn’t helping you. Your comments get longer and longer and to tell you the truth the longer they are the less likely we are to read them.

          We do not follow Russell like the JWs do the Governing Body. Showing us Russell was wrong we just say “ok” let’s figure out what is right. We don’t have some divine organization that we believe God is using. JWs do which is why when you show they are false they fall apart. We won’t We may use his writings but there are errors in them and we can over look those because our faith is not based on Russell. . Under the JWs you were to accept the errors and say God would guide the governing body’. This is claiming they are inspired without being inspired. We don’t get down hearted. Because we don’t believe everything Russell said. We are not russelites.

          So please don’t play the victim it’s not a good look on anyone.

          • Lincoln

            Dear Anon CJ,

            It is both interesting and scarring to read your answers to me. What is going on I don`t know. I am invited to give comments here, but when I do you talk down to me. I don`t. The things I wrote I was commenting from this place, BS.

            Therefore there is things I don’t understand with you. First I give you 3 quotes from you:

            1) ”The Holy Spirit called us to what we believe and you cannot convince me otherwise”.

            2) ”You go on websites and find stuff to trap us with about Russell and then try to phrase it in a question to make it look like you’re wanting to learn”.

            3) ” … we just say “ok” let’s figure out what is right”
            quote end.

            Answer: No, I don`t.

            This is what I wanted to discuss with you.

            No. 1) I will say: Ok, that is very big. In this you actually say, that you right and we Christians who believe in the Godhead, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, we are wrong and we also say, the Holy Spirit gave us this.

            Therefore I wanted to discuss it with you here.

            About 2) I will say: Yes, what is wrong with the Internet? My last letter here I found out you doubting two major issues. Therefore I referred from your articles. So, afterwards we could find out why you doubted it and what might be wright.

            About 3) Now, again you state; if something is wrong ”let`s figure out what is right”, but after that statement you refuse ”to find out”.

            I don`t understand you. But you chuse. I was asking and quoting from the Bible and I cannot find out why you don’t just answer. Why do you attack me in this way?

            • Anon CJ.

              Lincoln. Again with the victim card. It’s not about not trying to figure it out. You’re trying to convince us that there is a “Godhead”. The word “Godhead” is not biblical. This is a translation error in the KJV. You’re not on here to try to figure anything out. Or discuss. You’re on here to refute through questioning. You believe in the trinity which is evident from your responses. You then post these on here in the form of a questions which is a way of showing us scriptures that prove the trinity then try to show us that there is a Godhead. And when I call you out oh it you play victim. Sort of like when someone wants to say something mean then right after they say “I was just kidding” which allowed them to say what they wanted while trying to save face. The word “Godhead” is not scriptural but comes from the King James Version. The KJV observes at 1 Tim 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh” but a quick look at any interlinear shows it’s not correct. It says “HE was manifest in the flesh”. Also in the KJV the verse 1 John 5:7 says “And these three are one” But a quick look in the Greek shows it’s not there. The Bible tells us at 1 Cor 8:6 “There is one God the father….one Lord Jesus Christ.”

              Like I’ve said before. You’re not on here to learn. You have your mind made up and you’re on here posting things about Russell to show us he was false. You try to refute without looking confrontational by asking questions. You have your set of beliefs and you are pushing them on us in the form iof questions. Sheep in wolfs clothing.

              Here’s an example of what you do.

              “If God is not a trinity then why does John 1:1 says “the word was God”

              Then claim you’re just trying to learn. No. You’re trying to refute us in that question. Trust me. I used to do that too. That’s why I can see it. The fact that YOU DO NOT WANT TO LEARN because you’d rather click and paste off of sites instead of going to the true source of that information. We call that a KEYBOARD SCHOLAR. I’ve told you where to look and you said you didn’t want to waste your time. That’s proof that you have no intention of wanted to know what we believe to want to half-research something and then get offended when we call you out on it.

              • Lincoln

                Dear AnonCJ,

                I don’t feel victim. I am surprised and interested in BS.

                It is wrong, your way of answering me. You keep using the word ”refute”, but it is not the case from me. Then you accuse me of many things which I do not have in my heart.

                You write (and I quote), You say:

                ”Here’s an example of what you do.
                “If God is not a trinity then why does John 1:1 says “the word was God”
                quote end.

                Do I? Why not answer the question? John 1:1

                Strongs 2316: “God, was the word” Strongs 3056 – Strong 3056 “word”, 4561 “flesh”.

                I think this was why Charles Taze Russell believed in Jesus divine. Am I saying Charles Taze Russell was wrong? No, I am not.
                ______________________________________________________________

                Then you say (I quote):

                ”Then claim you’re just trying to learn. No. You’re trying to refute us in that question. Trust me. ”I used to do that too”. That’s why I can see it. The fact that YOU DO NOT WANT TO LEARN because you’d rather click and paste off of sites instead of going to the true source of that information. We call that a KEYBOARD SCHOLAR. I’ve told you where to look and you said you didn’t want to waste your time. That’s proof that you have no intention of wanted to know what we believe to want to half-research something and then get offended when we call you out on it.
                Quote end.

                My comment:

                Here I noticed two things: ” .. going to the true source of that information” ; ”I’ve told you where to look and you said you didn’t want to waste your time… ”

                But AnonCJ, Do you really mean you have the only ”true source of that information” and as you say ” you have told me where to look”, but I did not say ”I didn’t want to waste my time”, but only beginning studying you books.

                I have read them and I have had some of them, but I thought I could give comments here as I was invited to.

                Don’t you respect me? Why don’t you just answer my questions? I am not ”offended” and I don’t think about being ”called out on anything”. I am just writing and giving my comments as invited to.

                • Anon CJ.

                  You do use it to refute. Jesus called people hypocrites so why not call you out on yours? You’re not interested in bible students. You’ve gone on anti-Russell sites and pasted the quotes used to show he was false. You are in here to refute. It’s seen in your comments. You stated that you won’t waste your time reading the Studies in the scriptures which is our main books outside of the Bible. Basically this is how I’m viewing you: An atheist wants to know about God. Then goes to anti-Christian sites and pastes quotes showing God is evil from the Old Testament Law. Then a Christian says that he needs to read the Bible. The atheist says “I don’t want to waste my time. But I’m interested in God.

                  Do you see how that scenario works? That is what you’re doing.

                  “True source”. I stated “true source it THAT information”. As in the books they came from and not some fly by night internet page

                  “Don’t you respect me? Why don’t you just answer my questions? I am not ”offended” and I don’t think about being ”called out on anything”. I am just writing and giving my comments as invited to.”

                  I don’t respect you because they are not questions that you want answers to. They are questions meant to stumble. Like asking “if Jesus is. Of God then why does it say he is God at John 1:1”. That’s not a true legitimate question. That’s a “I’m going to catch you question.”

            • Chuck

              Dearest Lincoln,
              Greetings in Christ!
              It’s me again…!

              I will start with this. You have your beliefs and I (we) have ours. We BOTH believe them to be Scriptural. Obviously one of our views is not. They cannot both be true. Trinity vs. One God, the Father, along with his only begotten Son, Jesus, and the Father’s power (the Holy Spirit) are two beliefs that are at odds with each other. In each of our minds this subject is NOT debatable. And can only lead to more animosity among us. You try to prove your point and I could respond in kind with my points. No ones mind is changed.

              I have not seen anyone on here insist you disavow the Trinity. Yet, it seems, you are “pushing” your views on us to get us to confirm what you believe. I (we) are very comfortable and at peace with our Father in our beliefs. There is no need for us to try and convince you that you are wrong. That is a choice you personally must make. Trying to evangelize on this site is not going to work. Try as you will.

              I do not go on Trinity websites and try to convince them they are wrong. I may visit their sites to get an understanding of how they come to believe in the Trinity but, I do not post comments that oppose theirs. It is frustrating to log on here each day only to see more of your posts trying to convince me of Trinitarian thought. I would rather have meaningful conversations and not contradicting viewpoints constantly being posted in an attempt to evangelize me.

              It almost seems as if you are trying to convince yourself of your beliefs, because you are not convincing us of them. The alternative is that you feel you have to get us to change our beliefs to align with yours.

              Most on this site can quote 5 or more Scriptures that contradict the Trinity for each one you quote trying to prove it. In my understanding the evidence has come in and is not in favor of the Pagan belief in Godheads which were usually made up of three gods and sometimes more. Look at Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. The early “church” fathers incorporated this theory in order to make “Christianity” a little more palatable to the pagans at the time.

              I realize that evangelical “Christians” feel the need to “save” everybody. And you are trying your best to accomplish that goal. But, as Scripture states, Jesus already died to save all. Mission accomplished!

              It is our job as Christians to “spread the Good News” and let each make up their own minds. It is not my job to “save” anybody or to keep preaching to them something they do not want to hear. That would be wrong.

              The trolling comment seems accurate as when someone on the “right” in the political spectrum keeps posting their views on a website hosted by those from the “left” in the political spectrum. (Or visa versa.) This may not be a perfect example but it can lead to heated discussions that are not productive all the same.

              As for God’s Kingdom, there is no doubt among us. The Heavens AND the Earth will all fall under this category eventually. (see the Lord’s prayer)

              You state; “About 3) Now, again you state; if something is wrong ”let`s figure out what is right”, but after that statement you refuse ”to find out”.” Refuse to find out?! That is true if “something is wrong” (your words) but certain truths are not debatable. If someone preaches to you a different Gospel, do not listen. (paraphrased) And you are preaching a different Gospel. There ARE things we all do not quite understand and we SHOULD get together to figure them out. Trinity is NOT one of those things. For either of us it would seem, unless one does not understand the subject. I will leave it at that.

              You state: “…you are not at all interested in talking to me since I am a Christian…” This could not be more false. It is what you post on here that raises questions of you trying to evangelize, not that you claim to be a Christian or your beliefs.

              Finally, and I ask this sincerely, please don’t play the “victim card.” You are not a victim here. None of us are. We all would just love to get along and love one another as our Father commands.

              I know this was rather long, (I have read all your posts regardless of length) and hope I have made a few things clear as I understand them. I cannot speak for all on this site and do not presume to. This is just my heartfelt response to your posts. Please forgive me if I have offended in any way as I have not meant to.

              Agape Love,
              In Christ,
              Br. Chuck

              • Lincoln

                Dear Chuchk,

                Thank you for your letter. I understand your point and I also respect it. But the things we talk about is not the same, I can see. For example you write:

                ”In my understanding the evidence has come in and is not in favor of the Pagan belief in Godheads which were usually made up of three gods …. ”
                quote end.

                My comment:

                No, I am not talking about that. I am not talking about ”three gods”, but I am talking about one God, the God of the Jews, JHVH

                Deuteronomy 6:4

                “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!” 

                Then you write:

                ”I realize that evangelical “Christians” feel the need to “save” everybody. And you are trying your best to accomplish that goal … ”
                quote end.

                My comment: No, I am not. I don’t know if “evangelical “Christians” feels the need to “save” everybody. I think we just wants to “evangelise” / preaching the good news of Jesus Christ our saviour.

                I just thought to express my understanding as I was invited to.

                • Anon CJ.

                  It is exactly the same thing. Three is one still starts with three.

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  So Lincoln, you say “My comment: No, I am not. I don’t know if “evangelical “Christians” feels the need to “save” everybody. I think we just wants to “evangelise” / preaching the good news of Jesus Christ our saviour.”
                  Suppose people tell you they don’t want to hear about your “evangelise”? Which is what we have said so many times that it is ridiculous to keep talking to you and this is my last time because you are a time waster. You suck the energy and time of people that can be doing something else rather than indulging you in your love of your words, thoughts and ideas. It is like householders having to ask to get on the “do not call” list of the witnesses to just make them stop pestering them.
                  We wake up to your rants every morning. You are like the spam that the website won’t print. Since you have stopped all the links you get by the spam detector. I am going to call a meeting with Admin and see if she should stop printing your rants and just hope you go away.
                  I didn’t approve some of your long drawn out comments with links because a person would be foolish to click on that stuff you gather from all over the internet. Especially all the music and songs.
                  Lincoln why don’t you target your market and go to people that want to discuss your thoughts and beliefs. Stop striking at the air.
                  I for one am not responding to any more of your posts. I feel no scriptural obligation to waste valuable time that can be spent staying true to the purpose I have on this site and that is to help those that have voluntarily come out of the witnesses and want help until they steady themselves and can get on their feet spiritually.
                  We are feeding into your rants by commenting but we have tried to be nice to you but it only encourages your behaviour of “got to make everybody listen to me and follow me.
                  This is goodbye for me and after all get to comment today we will probably say goodbye to you. So get your rants in today or be gracious and stop it. You are what is known as a troller and spam. If this is the way you evangelize on websites I would imagine you have been banned before for spamming. Jacqueline

                • Chuck

                  Dear Lincoln,

                  Our understanding is different and I get that. Let’s get to a discussion and not a conversation full of excuses or deflections.

                  I have a few questions that we can discuss. A direct response to each would be appreciated.

                  Do you feel that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are three different incarnations of One God, or that each is an individual in itself?
                  If they are three incarnations of the One God, do they all three coexist AS God?
                  If each is an individual, how do they exist as one?

                  These three questions will give me a better understanding of what you believe. I am following up now on a few subjects pertinent to the discussion.

                  My understanding is that there are two individuals, the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Father and not an individual. In the original Greek the pronoun used is neutral/masculine, thus should be translated as “it” to maintain harmony. Just at we would refer to our own knowledge as “it.” As seen in the picture of the Father sending his “power” (Holy Spirit) in the form of a dove (apparently seen only by John the Baptist) to the Son (Jesus) at his immersion by John the Baptist. If Jesus was another incarnation of the Father, he would not need the Holy Spirit as he would already have it (God’s power.)

                  Jesus prays to the Father asking Him (the Father) to guide him (Jesus) in His (the Father’s) will. If Jesus was an incarnation of the Father, he would already know his own will and would not need the Father’s help. And to say God would hide things from his Earthly incarnation is disingenuous and only an excuse to prove Trinity.

                  Jesus had flaws such as self doubt thus his prayers to the Father for guidance (albeit he was sinless) and God has no flaws. Why would God pray to himself for answers anyway?

                  Jesus states that there are some things he does not know but, the Father does. Again, if an incarnation of the Father this makes no sense as one of the things God cannot do is lie.

                  God cannot contradict himself, so when Jesus asked for the cup to be passed he would be contradicting the Father’s will even though he was willing to accept the Father’s will.

                  It is stated in Scripture that NONE have seen God. If Jesus WAS God how is this possible?

                  As I understand it, Trinitarians believe God can do anything and somehow made himself a separate human body to walk the Earth. Is this right? Please explain if different.

                  I know John 1:1 is a standard go to for Trinitarians. But the translations available were almost all written by Trinitarians. So it would seem there is a bias in the translations. When the Greek is truly studied with an open mind, the translation is slightly different and contradicts the Trinitarian view.

                  A translation that is in harmony with MANY other scriptures goes like this: [1] In the beginning was the Word*, and the Word was towards God, and the Word also was godlike**.
                  * Jesus prior to his Earthly walk
                  ** a divine being and not the Father (God)

                  I know this does not sit well with Trinitarians but, is closer to the actual Greek.

                  As God has no beginning nor end that the word was there “in the beginning,” is significant. Beginning of what? Of the WORD, God’s first begotten. Through which all of creation was accomplished for the Father.

                  This is my understanding as guided by the Holy Spirit (God’s giving of knowledge.)

                  Thank you for your answers ahead of time.

                  In Christ,
                  Br. Chuck

                  • Lincoln

                    Dear Chuck,

                    Thank you for answer and questions. I would like to answer you and talk with you, but it looks like I am not welcome here. I will dare to answer you or give my comments to you questions; Dear Chuck,

                    Thank you for your letter and questions. I am not sure I can answer them satisfactory because dont think it is possible. I have already given many scriptures talking about Jesus as God, but it seems that the argument against those scriptures are; they are written/translated by believers of the trinity. Therefore another argument is that this is the reason for JW to write their own Bible, but I will give an answer.

                    You ask:

                    1) If each is an individual, how do they exist as one?

                    Answer:

                    To my understanding the answer has to do with the identification of God`being. Clearly the Bible identify God as ”Spirit”. At the same time I believe (we believe) that God can be present everywhere and share personally companionship with anybody everywhere at the same time.

                    So, if the Spirit is the identity of God, we identify God in the Spirit and ”as the Spirit”. Therefore we use different identification on the Spirit in the manner God manifestation.

                    That means, that the ”Dove” was an carrier/manifestation of the Holy Spirit; and the Flames on Pentecost was also a carrier/manifestation of the Holy Spirit and other times when God reveals himself in our physical world in physical things, but only as a carrier/manifestation of Gods pressens.

                    This is the only way we can ”prove” God.

                    2)” … there are two individuals, the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Father and not an individual ..”

                    Answer:

                    Yes, the Father and the Son. Ezekiel 37: Strongs: 3068-Yaveh, 7307-in the Spirit ruach,

                    The greek word is pneuma, John 19 Interlinear: 4151-pneuma (ruach) his (Jesus) spirit.

                    Isaiah 11:2 strongs: 7307-spirit ruach, 5117 and 3068-Yahweh

                    The human man Jesus was not God, but Jesus pneuma (ruach) was.

                    John 10:30 – ”I and the Father are one.”

                    You also write:

                    ” … as “it.” As seen in the picture of the Father sending his “power” (Holy Spirit) in the form of a dove (apparently seen only by John the Baptist) to the Son (Jesus) at his immersion by John the Baptist.
                    Quote end.

                    My comment:

                    We don’t believe the Holy Spirit is just ”power” or is an ”it”, but we believe the Holy Spirit is God self.

                    Where the Holy Spirit is, God is.

                    The last one:

                    ”It is stated in Scripture that NONE have seen God. If Jesus WAS God how is this possible?”
                    quote end.

                    My comment:

                    It is very true, very true and therefore God made himself manifest in the Spirit within Jesus spirit. Therefore the scriptures I already have quoted, but you say it was written and translated by believers of trinety, so I cannot give you scriptures. Only the ones I already have given.

                    Now, what happens when we declare Jesus God? Both human and God at the same time?

                    It seems to me wonderful things happens. All over the world people comes to God and starts worshiping God. The name Jesus the Bible declares as the only name whom everyone shall bow down to. The greatest name in universe. Acts 4:12 –

                    “Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

                    Now I understand you people here don`t like the Internet and what to find, but I do and I will quote from the Bible:

                    Philippians 2:9-10 tells us that God has vested all authority in the wonderful and matchless Name of Jesus: “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

                    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.”
                    quote end.

                    So, where does this bring me towards you? Well, I will never say anything against you, never and the accusations here that I am against you are wrong. I found you here because of the open, I thought and it is interesting for me to see, Charles Taze Russell books still are being studied. I thought not, but I can see you do.

                    https://thetruthlover.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/jesus-the-greatest-name-of-all/

                    So, where does it bring you? I don’t know, but maybe as an reminder of Good Old Days and I think it was. The idea of brotherhood worldwide is fine, but somehow things went wrong since you (and I) left JW / Watchtower.

                    • zionsherald

                      Lincoln,

                      I’ve been on vacation in the Pennsylvania at our Bible Students General Convention, the Shenandoah National Park in Virginia, and have a one day break before I head out to the Rocky Mountains in Colorado.

                      What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? Much of what you’ve said here is repeated from what you’ve said already and what I’ve already responded to (without a response from you I might add).

                      As I stated a couple of weeks ago, if you are really interested in a dialogue (and not a monologue) then lets discuss these passages and determine together if their contextual and historical contexts fit the interpretations that you are suggesting.

                      Isn’t a dialogue more productive than repeating the same thing over in a monologue that has already been responded to. If you’ve said the same thing more than once, what would make you think that repeating the same thing would make anyone listen to you more? Instead of pulling people toward you, you push them away with such behavior.

                      As I stated before, lets discuss these matters. I respect people who make attempts at dialog, rather than the endless repetition activities you are undertaking.

                      Lets look at each of the passages you raise together. Lets discuss them rationally and move on. Once discussed, there is no need to bring them up again.

                      Now that I’ve said this, lets make another attempt. My suggestion is that we keep a running list of passages that have been responded to so that they are not repeated again. What do you think?

                      Chuck responded to the John 1:1 passage which I responded to earlier as well. I see that you’ve replied to him recently, but not to me. Since I have not seen a response to my comments on the passage, I will copy/paste what I’ve already said to you on it already in case you’ve missed it. If you choose to respond with dialogue, great. If not, lets not raise the passage again, and then we can add it to our discussed passage list, and lets move on to another one.

                      Another suggestion — Keep your audience in mind. An example of this is your comment that “this is the reason for JW to write their own Bible.” You do know that most of us here do not use the New World translation and that we are not JWs. How would such a comment that is directed towards an audience that many here have left affect them? The logic escapes me.

                      Here is an important Question for you regarding definitions — You said, “The human man Jesus was not God, but Jesus pneuma (ruach) was.” Such a comment from you necessitates that you provide your definition of the trinity. The traditional trinitarian formula would negate your comment equating Jesus the Son as Jesus the holy spirit since the trinitarian formula demands that each person in the trinity is separate and distinct from the other. Jesus is the son, but not the father or spirit. The father is the father and not the son or spirit, and the spirit is not the father or son. Equating them deviates from the traditional formula. Your comment appears to follow more along the lines of the oneness pentecostal formula which trinitarianism has also determined to be heresy. With many of the YouTube videos you’ve posted, I wonder if you are following this particular heresy or if you are not quite sure what the traditional trinitarian forumal is?

                      ———————————————

                      Now that I’ve stated this, here follows my earlier response to you on John 1:1 —

                      You’ve raised a new subject on the passage of John 1:1.

                      John 1:1 ”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

                      We know from the context that the Word here was Jesus so I’ll substitute that in the text and paraphrase it as we go.

                      “In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God….”

                      Who is God here? Jesus obviously was not with himself. The context tells us how to identify “God” here. In John 1:6 he says “There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.” We know this was the Father because the 18th verse tells us that “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father…” Since I’ve let the context do the interpreting for me, I will now substitute Father in the place of God and continue with my paraphrase.

                      “In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.” (The Zionsherald paraphrase).

                      The traditional trinitarian ‘formula’ has each person in the godhead separate and distinct from the other persons. In other words, they believe there are three separate persons, all God. The Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit, but all three are God. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit, nor is the Spirt the Father or Son.

                      This is the reason that in Greek John makes a distinction between ‘theos’ and ‘ho theos” as John could not make Jesus the same person as the Father. There are some Oneness Pentecostals who equate the ‘persons’ but most trinitarians consider them heretics, and rightfully so.

                      Keeping the distinction between the Father and Son is important and it is the same issue found in Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus is called both “mighty God” and “everlasting Father.”

                      When I point this out to some trinitarian friends that I’ve had this discussion with they quickly recognize there is an issue with their interpretation of these texts because, as they affirm, Jesus the Son is not the Father.

                      ——————–

                      I look forward to a reply.

                      ===================
                      Adding to the list.

                      DISCUSSED
                      John 1:1

                    • Chuck

                      Dear Lincoln,
                      Thank you for your response. We are now getting somewhere. I must admit, your view of the “Trinity” is much different from the accepted “doctrine of the Trinity” put forth by most churches.

                      First off, you continue to make statements that insinuate I was a JW and left. Or that I was raised reading Br. Russels writings. False. I was NEVER a JW. I started out Presbyterian for many years growing up and then attended Baptist, Nazarene, Church of the Good Shepherd, Southern Nazarene, and Christian Live Assemblies of God. I found all to be lacking in truth as I understood it. They tried to play on my feelings and not answer my questions. My God is a loving God and could never send someone to a so called Hell for torture. I met many hypocrites in the nominal system. They attended their church for the way it made them “feel” and not because of a true desire to please our Father and walk in the footsteps of Jesus. Plus, each had a different understanding of Scriptures. This meant that someone was wrong. And not necessarily that any were right. At 44 years of age I was introduced to the Bible Students through a friend and WOW! Real people full of love and a longing to search the Scriptures for truth. After meeting the Bible Students I dove headlong into studying the Bible with the aid of many different commentaries old and new. I use a few different concordances and approximately two dozen different translations of the Bible. I also studied Ancient Hebrew to get a better grasp of what the Old Testament writers were saying. One member of our study group has parents from Greece and he has a nice working understanding of the Greek language used in the New Testament. We question everything! Looking for Truth.

                      Now…

                      Just cutting and pasting Scriptures does not answer any of the questions we ask here. We have all read them many times before. UNDERSTANDING the Scriptures through study of the subject and context of them is how we get a better grasp of the truths presented. We don’t just take what our “leaders” (we don’t have preachers or priests) feed us. A true desire to understand our Lord and not let our “feelings” get in the way has led us to what we each believe. It is not groupthink spoon fed to us by someone on a podium or some other higher up that has decided what we should believe (such as the JW’s and Catholic Church systems.) Most of these groups are just trying to get your feelings all riled up and create an overwhelming “frenzy” amongst their followers. This is dangerous as truth goes out the door and emotions take over.

                      Your understanding of the Holy Spirit as I think you presented it is a little closer to our belief that it is Gods power, wisdom etc. than that of regular Trinitarians. Not falling for the whole pagan triune system has led us to the understanding that it cannot be a separate ENTITY of God. When you have the Holy Spirit in you, it is Gods power, which can be equated to having God in you, just not physically as a “ghost” or whatever. As an example: When you are in school you can be said to have School Spirit. This usually entails knowing a lot about your school, its sports teams and such. This is a knowledge others might not have. It is not a “spirit” inhabiting our bodies. But a knowledge (which leads to power) infused by the school you attend and your desire to understand that knowledge. I see the Holy Spirit as explained throughout Scriptures (not cherry picked verses) as the Knowledge and Power of God given to us if we chose to listen and learn. Some do, some don’t, just as in school some listened and learned and some chose not to. That knowledge and power can be said to “reside” in you.

                      Now that we have both given our understanding of this subject, and we can disagree, let’s move on to another. Nephesh vs. Ruach. You have commented in the past on this and that is why I bring it up. Every time I gave you the definitions of these two words you glossed over them repeating what you were told instead of trying to truly understand their meanings.

                      Nephesh which is translated as “soul,” “creature,” “life” and “being (when referring to animals versus people)” as used in Genesis is more accurately translated as Living Being (They had it half right!). Translators chose the english word “soul” in only certain spots (when people are involved) based on a bias towards the belief of an “Immortal Soul.” (The term does not exist in Scriptures.) A LIVING BEING cannot exist without two things. Body and Breath. Lose one and the Living Being fails to live. Thus Nephesh is NOT an invisible soul living in our bodies. It is the combination of body and breath.

                      That brings us to Ruach. The breath or spirit of God. Also his power. Gods breath/power/spirit, used/added to the body and a Living Being is created. This is not a “ghost” or “spirit being” that was added. It is God’s miracle of creating life!

                      The ancient Pagan Egyptians (and most other pagan belief systems) believed that something in the body “left” the body at death to go on living somewhere else. This pagan belief was incorporated into early Christianity again to appease the pagans they were trying to convert. It is not Scriptural. It also helps ease peoples feelings when a loved one dies. Easing the pain of death is a good thing is some ways but again, a spirit leaving the body is NOT Scriptural. A spiritual body is. This will happen to some and some will have a human body upon the “restoration of all things” in the “world to come.” When a “true language is returned to the people.” These are all prophecies in the Old Testament. And repeated over and over again!

                      As for raising the dead, whether with a human body or a spirit body, it is ONLY to happen at the last trumpet when Jesus returns. (I believe you even used this verse in one of your posts.) Has this happened yet? I think not or we would all know about it! All who are in the grave are asleep until that moment. Jesus refers to death many times with this picture of sleep.

                      That is my commentary and I look forward to your response. Thank you for giving your beliefs for me to try and understand. We more than likely will not agree on these things, but that is ok. I am just trying to let you understand my beliefs. Again, just posting Bible verses to prove a point will not work. We obviously read them differently. Some of the verses you have posted prove my point wholeheartedly! You and I just see them in a different light.

                      Thank you and God bless,
                      Br. Chuck

                    • Lincoln

                      Dear Brother Chuck,

                      Thank you for your answer, but I must leave you since Peter doesn’t want me here.

                      God Bless you.

  • Bret

    Peter;

    Heirs of what? You say Heaven, I say the earth “world” Matt 5:5, Rev 5:10

    Supplying the data from Romans 4:13, we see that Christians are “God’s heirs to the world,” “joint-heirs to the world with Christ,” “heirs to the world, because we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:17). Paul made the same point when he wrote to the Galatians: “For if the inheritance (of the world) is based on law it is no longer based on a promise, but God granted it [the inheritance of the world] by means of a promise…And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs (of the world) according to the promise” (Gal. 3:18, 29),

  • Bret

    Heaven symbolic

    2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished

    The Heavens of old were the ruling perhaps governing or ecclisiatical entities of that time here on earth and thus destroyed…

    The same today, these current Heavens will be replaced here on earth, where Christ and his co-heirs will rule as kings on earth a (New Heavens) Rev 5:10

  • Lee Anthony

    Romans 5:12) I’m not sure what the actual question is though I have been following along… I would like to add the scripture for mortal men living forever. Adam would not have to eat from the tree of life to never die as Death did not yet exist because there was not yet sin, yet Adam just like Jesus could have been killed and therefore could have died.

    • Lee Anthony

      Ok I see both sides now. Interesting thoughts.

    • Bret

      Lee;

      Nice to see you add your comments…

      My point is that I do not believe that eternal life or everlasting life was inherent in man… Life is a gift from God (Rom 6:23)

      I believe that Adam who was created a mortal would have to remain loyal to God and carry out his commands to fill the earth and subdue it… If he completed that commision I believe immortality would have been the gift…

      Adam would inherit the earth, gain immortality or indestructable life and be a King along with his offspring i.e. Have dominion over the earth and all its creation…

      Just as when Jesus gained indestructable life all the Angels were told to do obesiance to him, I believe would be the same for Adam and therefore because the Angelic spirit creatures were going to be inferior and in subjection to Adam and his offspring, this cause Satans rebelliin or jealousy towards Adam and his eventual position..

      I do not believe Satan was jelous of Gods worship he received, that wouldnt make sense but his jelousy towards Adam and the Human race eventualy attaining immortality and superiority over him and all the angels cause him to try and sabatage Mans course..

      I believe once the earth was filled by a loyal Adam and his offspring they would have received the gift of immortality and thus being spirit driven with Aionion Bodies that is immortal bodies received from God (Prepared in Heaven)! Thus heavenly bodies the procreation would cease and the earth filled..

      • Lee Anthony

        Btet,
        Now I see the picture, interesting. I have never heard it this way before. Different perspective is always good to consider.

        • Bret

          Lee;

          I have to say this view is nothing new…
          If you have a Benjamin Wilson Greek Diaglott, then maybe you have researched his work. He founded the Abrahamic faith Church of God..
          Benjamin Wilson a Biblical Unitarian taught that the promise to Abraham (Ro 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith) wAs to inherit the Kingdom of God also known as the Kingdon of the Heavens in other words God is its source…
          He taught that all faithful Christians were Abrahams seed and heirs of that promise (Matt 5:5, Rev 5:10)
          He rejected what many have come to realize is that the idea of Heavenly life is a gnostic idea that crept into Christianity…
          Nowhere did jesus promise or even mention life in heaven for his followers, and all his teachings and parables were in reference to his return to the earth and ruling or governing mankind Luke 1:33
          This view was the common view by the Church founding fathers as they are called of the late first and second century…
          In fact nowhere can their writing be found to speak about gaining Heavenly life instead as the Jews taught and Jesus himslef they believed in the “Age to Come” the kingdom
          They were mellenialist like us believing in the 1,000 golden age or rule of christ followed by the Age of Ages or eternity..
          Notice if you have a Greek Diaglott Wilson uses Aion or aionios instead of everlasting or eternal..

  • Bret

    “Flesh and Blood Cannot Inheret The Kingdom”

    I wanted to touch on this often misunderstood scripture and what the context really says about this statement by the Apostle Paul….

    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

    This text is so often misunderstood and wrongly used without considering the context, and looking back through articles and comments I thought i might touch on this subject..

    Flesh and Blood was a common Jewish Idiom and it represents mortality, life as a human mortal and this shown by the context in 1 Corinthians 15….

    Paul summerizes the entire thought on the discussion of the resurrection by saying “Mortals/Flesh and Blood or Corruptable Humans Cannot inherit the kingdom of God” That is a Kingdom that is everlasting cannot be given to someone or something that is not everlasting.

    The 1st Adam had the eventual gift of immortality had he been loyal to Jehovah, but instead he missed out on gaining the gift of immortality by disobeying the Creator.

    The 2nd Adam came to “seek and save what was lost”
    Lu 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.

    What was lost? Some would say everlasting or eternal life!!!!
    I would say “Life in the Age to come” greek Zoe Aionios…. Hebrew Chayay Olam…

    Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to “life in the age to come”

    This is the same age (Aion) that Jesus always refered to.

    Adam didn’t lose out on life in Heaven….

    So what is a “spiritual body”, or a “heavenly body”?

    These are bodies prepared by God in Heaven that we shall RECEIVE from Heaven and they are bodies fit for the age to come…

    They are Aionion Bodies…

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, “Eternal”, in the heavens
    The word “ETERNAL” is the greek word “Aionios” we do not have an english adjective that describes this word or meaning… Buth this is in reference to the age to come…

    2Co 5:2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven

    So this body which is immortal or everlasting is a body made in heaven and prepared for the “Age to come” It is everlasting and we shall “Receive it from Heaven”

    Therefore it is a heavenly body or a spiritual body but is tangable and as Jesus said of himself… Lu 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having….

    Adam missed out on immortality as well as the entire human race… Eventually Adam and all his offspring would have subdued the earth, extended the boundaries of the Garden to encompass the entire earth, fill it with offspring and then received the gift of Immortality and then as Jesus said of those who “Inherit the Age to Come” no longer marry or produce children (Luke 20:35) because the earth will be fully populated.

    But all of mankind will have an opprrtunity to go and eat from the tree of life just as the spirit begotten sons of God have Rev 22:1,2 and 14….

    So Flesh and Blood or mortals cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is everlasting or Eternal…
    Spiritual bodies or Heavenly bodies refers to the source of these bodies which are spirit driven and its life source obviously is not Bllod which is how mortal bodies survive…

    All must understand the Jews only new of this age and the “age to come” which is all Jesus refered to…

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Bret,

      Thanks again. You are sharing your view and stimulating our thinking and conversation. Glad you have such a passion for understanding and teaching scripture. I agreed with much of what your said. In the spirit of honest investigation, let’s discuss further.

      I am not aware of any evidence in the Bible that a heavenly body includes material flesh and/or bones. Do you have evidence outside of Luke 24:39?

      Would you agree that angels have a spirit body which is invisible to humans and not composed of flesh and bones?

      ————–

      You said, “Therefore it is a heavenly body or a spiritual body but is tangible and as Jesus said of himself… Lu 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having….”

      By “tangible,” I think you mean flesh, just like Jesus appeared with a body of flesh and bones. I will proceed on that assumption, but correction me if I am wrong.

      This is a seemingly contradictory scripture to other verses in this article that indicate Jesus is spirit. So how can we harmonize these verses? I think the simple answer must be that when a spirit being appears in a human body, at that point in time they are not in an invisible spirit body, but rather a visible and material human body. Otherwise, how do we explain the times when angels appeared to Bible characters and even ate meals with them? How do we explain fallen angels pro-creating with human women (Genesis 6:1-4). So then Luke 24:39 is no contradiction at all when we realize that Jesus after leaving the disciples returned to his invisible divine spirit body.

      —————-

      You said, “The 1st Adam had the eventual gift of immortality had he been loyal to Jehovah, but instead he missed out on gaining the gift of immortality by disobeying the Creator.”

      My opinion: God promised Adam the opportunity for eternal life, NOT Immortality. According to the Bible, the only ones who are immortal or have the opportunity to obtain immortality are God (Yahweh), Jesus (the Son of God) and the body or bride of Christ.

      The apostle Paul tells us that we (the New Creation) will be changed at the last trump. How will we be changed? “This mortal will have put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:53, NASB). Immortality is something that, if faithful, we receive at our change.

      Paul also wrote: “To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life” (Romans 2:7, NASV). Clearly we do not possess immortality because Paul says we are seeking it.

      Finally, Paul stated that Christ “alone possesses immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16). Christ only had immortality (the Father being excepted, see 1 Corinthians 15:27), not even the angels.

      • Bret

        Peter;

        Yes I would agree that the spirit beings who are often refered to as Angels have invisible spirit bodies…
        But they are not of the “New Creation” as those spirit begitten Christians receive from God (1Cor 5:1-3)

      • Bret

        Peter,

        You said “So then Luke 24:39 is no contradiction at all when we realize that Jesus after leaving the disciples returned to his invisible divine spirit body.”

        Where does it state that Jesus returned to his invisible body? As far as I know his Disciples watched him Ascend upward in the very body he had while with them and then it was a cloud that caught him up from their vision…

        Now Jesus is being retained in Heaven (Acts 3:21) “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things”

        And obviously he is currently dwelling in unapproachable light where no man can see him or has seen him since his ascension 1Tim 6….

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Bret,

          I have finally found time to respond. Thanks for your patience. I have carefully read through all you comments and I appreciate that you are a true good and honest student of scripture.

          I see you are decided on your conclusions and I appreciate that you are standing by what you believe you can prove by scripture. I have no misapprehension of being able to change your mind, however in each point I will share my response so you know where I am coming from.

          You asked, “Where does it state that Jesus returned to his invisible body?”

          The passage does NOT say that Jesus remained in a body of flesh and bones. He sometimes appeared in different forms or bodies (Mark16:12) that the disciples did not at first recognize.(Luke 24:35; John 20:14-17; 21:1-13)

          The Bible teaches that Jesus had and invisible spirit body and that JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT (BEING)

          1 Pet 3:18 being put to death in deed in flesh, But made alive in spirit Rotherham

          2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; (NKJ) (2 Cor 1:3 – “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” KJV)

          1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit. (KJV)

          Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (NKJ) [compare “image” with 1 Cor 15:49]

          1 Cor 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Jesus] is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (KJV)

      • Bret

        Peter,

        I do not think that the Angels Bodies can be compared to the immortal boddies that we as recipients of the Aionion Bodies receive from Heaven…

        Also I believe there is a difference between what is called a “SPIRITUAL BODY” and a “Spirit Body”, just as there is a difference between me saying that Peter is a spiritual man or that Peter is a spirit man….

        Paul discusses the difference between the mortal body that we have and the immortal body we shall receive…

        • Peter K. (admin)

          The point of comparison with angels is not “immortality.” Rather, the comparison is invisible “spirit bodies.”

          Context determines whether the word “spirit” is referring to a spirit being or a spiritual person. For example, below is a “spirit being.”

          1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit. (KJV)

      • Bret

        Peter;

        In agreement with you with regards to who receives Immortality “Those who belong to Christ at his parousia… Those of the first resurrection as Paul refered to it as the “Earlier resurrection….

        Why would the second Adam and all those who belong to him receive something beyond what was available to Adam…

        Jesus promised his followers they will inherit the earth Matt 5:5…. I believe that all mankind will have the eventual prospects of eating from the tree of life as I quoted earlier Rev 22:1,2,14
        This is the same tree of life the spirit begotten Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God

        • Bret

          Consider Romans 2:7 in light of the greek word Aionios

          “7Those who have persisted in doing what is right will receive glory and honor, immortality and the Life of the Age to Come”

          “Life in the Age to Come” is the biblical definition of the Christian destiny. The Bible has not a word to say about “going to heaven when you die.” “‘ Heaven’ is never in fact used in the Bible for the destination of the dying” (Dr. J.A.T. Robinson, In the End God, p. 104).

          • Bret

            The term “everlasting” or “eternal life” is a poor representation of its very Jewish original (Chayay olam). The phrase zoe aionios, known to us all as everlasting or eternal life, really means the Life of the Age to Come or the Life of the Coming Kingdom, which is the same thing.
            Dr. Nigel Turner, remarks in his Christian Words: “It would be imprecise to translate aionios as ‘eternal’ . . . It means ‘belonging to the future age or dispensation’” (T & T Clark, 1980, 452, 455).

            With That in mind how do you decipher Who gets Immortality and who just gets everlasting life as mortals?

            Where in the Bible do you get the idea that Mortals can live forever? There is not a single scripture of text that gives the idea that Mortals can live forever!!! Perhaps a thousand years but eventual the mortal corruptable week body gives out…

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Bret,

              Was Adam immortal before he sinned? You believe an immortal person can die?

              There are plenty of Bible versus that show that the resurrected humanity will be saved. That I can recall, these verses do not assign the words”mortal” or immortal.”

              John 6:51 (ESV) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

              Two Distinct Classes Saved – Church and World

              1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth

              1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV

              Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
              [An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]

              Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV

              1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV

              2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV

              2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

              Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV

              Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV

              • Bret

                Peter;

                “Was Adam immortal before he sinned? You believe an immortal person can die?”

                Not sure where you are getting this? I never said that anyone had immortality…

                Perhaps you are not reading thoroughly through my posts and grasping what I am saying so let me lay it out for you…

                Adam was created mortal… If Adam had remained loyal and faithfully fullfilled his commision he could have obtained immortaility along with all his offspring…

                Because Adam did not remain loyal and sinned (Missed the mark) this gift would not be available to anyone until Jesus paid the atoning price or Ransom thus making available again to man the prospect of eternal life or indestructable life…

                I believe through Adams fall the eventuality of death became reality for all men..

                I believe Adam would have had dominion over all the earth along with his offspring… This is exactly what Jesus came to buy back and this was to be accomplished through the royal lineage of Abraham (The father of our faith)

                I believe there is the first resurrection (All those who belong to Christ this include even those men of old who are a part of that olive tree and include loyal Christians)
                This will be followed by the general resurrection or the resurrection of the unrighteous who will be on probation during the melinium and will have the prospects of gaining this gift after remaining loyal…

                A resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous…

                As far as the faithful men of old the will not be made perfect apart from us Heb 11:40 this means they will be perfect along with us…
                What are the better things for us mention there? They are having the good news or gospel delivered by Christ and seeing the fullfilment of the promised messiah, unlike these pre-christian Christians who had their gospel message delivered by angels (Heb 2) and did not get to see the Christ…

                As far you saying the promise to Abraham of his offspring numbering as the sands of the sea or the stars of the Heavens, meaning some offspring would receive heaven as an inheritance, i would say this is completely creating a doctrine out of nothing more than a descriptive term… Not a single scripture in New Testemant to tie that teaching together..

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Bret,

            The Biblical definition of the Christian destiny is not limited to “Life in the Age to Come” which does not speak to the type of body recieved – flesh or spirit being.

            For the Christian, the Bible only speaks of a heavenly hope as in the scriptures that follow:

            Philippians 3:20 (NASV) “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”

            Colossians 1:5 (NWT) “the hope that is being reserved for YOU in the heavens.

            Hebrews 3:1 (NWT) “Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess-Jesus.”

            Matthew 5:12 (NWT) “Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.”

            Luke 6:22-23 (NKJV) “22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven…”

            2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NWT) “1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,”

            Hebrews 6:19-20 (NASV) “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

            1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) “So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.”

            1 Corinthians 15:49 (NASV) “Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.”

            John 14:2-3 (NWT) “2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.”

            1 John 3:2 (NKJV) “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

            Philippians 3:14 (NKJV) “I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”
            [Upward Call is to HEAVEN. Compare Colossians 3:1 (NKJV) If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above <507>, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” Also compare: John 8:23 (NKJV) “And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above <507>. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”

            Daniel 12:3 (NASV) “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”

            None of these scriptures indicate any other hope for the Christian than the heavenly hope. As a matter of fact, Eph 4:4 says, “One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called” (Eph 4:4 NWT). So for the Christian there is only one hope; the heavenly hope. Throughout the book of Acts, whenever anyone is baptized, nobody is ever given the option of whether they want to choose an earthly or a heavenly reward.
            Even the Great Crowd are said to be in Heaven in Rev 19:1 which says, “After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” (NWT) The Greek words translated great crowd is exactly the same as in Rev 7:9

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Bret – You asked, “Why would the second Adam and all those who belong to him receive something beyond what was available to Adam?”

          The Bible teaches that Christ’s body members will be raised spirit beings.

          John 3:6-8, 13 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit… No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (NKJ)

          1 Cor 15:40: There are also celestial [heavenly] bodies, and bodies terrestrial [earthly]: but the glory of the celestial [heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [earthly] is another. (KJV)

          1 Cor 15:44: It is sown [we are born in] a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (NKJ)

          Christ and his body members receive a reward beyond the “eternal life” Adam and mankind have the opportunity to receive in the earthly paradise kingdom.

          Immortality is only assigned to God, Jesus and his body members. None else of all creation are described in the Bible as receiving immortality. (1 Tim 1:17; 6:16-17; Romans 2:7; 1 Cor 15:53)

          The verse about eating the tree of life is evidence in your favor, but not proof for these reasons.

          * Angles the the resurrected Jesus ate food with people.

          * Revelation is a symbolic book and we cannot expect that the faithful will literally eat of a material tree of life any more than we would expect them to be literal pillars in a material temple (Rev 3:12)

          The meek in inhereting in the earth does not make the glorified Church flesh any more than God in Psalms 50:10.

          Psalms 50:10 “For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.”

  • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

    Brothers we have an audience into the thousands on these conversations. ZionsHerald, hello and thanks for commenting.
    I announced the conversation to our Wednesday night group for this side and they are following also.

  • Bret (B.S)

    Hello Peter,

    Thanks for your insight into this discussion.. I would like to say that the Immortal bodies that we shall receieve I do believe are spiritual and heavenly or celestial because they are not of an earthly source but of God, thus Heavenly…. I believe that they are a new Creation… New Creation then means there is nothing else like them… Certainly then they are more than just a spirit….

    To me terms such as spiritual, celestial and heavenly are not discriptive of what they are made of but the sourse from which they are made… they are contrasted fleshly corruptible, mortal bodies…

    Paul viewed Jesus as a Man, an immortalized man (1Tim 2:5, 1Cor 15:21, Acts 17:31)
    To simply say Jesus and his body members are simply invisible spirit beings falls in the realms of the gnostic views that crept into early Christianity…

    Jesus and the scriptures I believe made it clear that he was not just a spirit..

    Lu 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a “SPIRIT”.
    Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a “SPIRIT” hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    If Jesus is simply just a spirit, then these scriptures are certainly very deceptive both in word and meaning…

    I believe Jesus is more than simply a spirit, but that he is an immortalized Man, a New Creation with nothing like him… not the Angels or anything else for that matter…

    I could lay out a list of scriptures where the word spirit is used in very different terms and at times confusing and complex. The word spirit in both Hebrew and Greek has a very wide use and meaning.

    Heaven or Earth as the Home of Jesus and his body

    It is simply supprising how few scriptures in the Bible actually can be read into the idea that Christ and his bride will live and reside in Heaven…

    I would say there are more scriptures that can be wrongly construed as man having an immortal soul or spirit in the Bible than those taken to say we shall live in Heaven…
    in fact if you were to take those scriptures that make reference to Gehenna or Lake of fire that can be so difficult for so many to grasp and think of eternal torment in comparison to those thought to mean Heavenly life the they also far out weigh those..

    I simply believe that the Heaven and Hell belief is deeply steeped in Ngosticism and the Hellenistic age…

    I believe the terms in which Heaven is used in the Bible adds to much confusion when you have a pre onceived Idea and as far as I have seen or could tell I do not think Brother Russel ever even considered this topic but was probably already influenced by a preconceived idea and never questioned this idea…

    New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven to me is highly symbolic and cannot be understood without considering such text as Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven…. or
    Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

    I believe the promises made to Abraham and to his seed to inherit the land, that is the land of Isreal where Jerusalem is located and I believe New Jerusalem will be located is also a part of that promise… Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    That promise is more than just the “seed” Christ but is also the promise to inherit the land and it is applied the Christian also who is grafted in…

    So Psalms 37:29 and Matt 5:5 which Jesus quoted in his sermon on the mount is a promise to us to inherit the earth/land

    Inheriting the kingdom as Kings and priest requires that we are immortal men and not mortals susceptable to the flesh…

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Bret (B.S),

      Thanks. More details are helping me to understand more clearly how you are viewing the scriptures related to this topic.

      I will give you my opinion for what it is worth. I agree that we cannot comprehend a scriptural expressions like “heaven” that we have never personally experienced.

      You said, “New Creation then means there is nothing else like them… Certainly then they are more than just a spirit….”

      Actually, spirit beings have spirit bodies, just like human beings have human bodies.
      1 Cor 15:40: There are also celestial [heavenly] bodies, and bodies terrestrial [earthly]: but the glory of the celestial [heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [earthly] is another. (KJV)

      Many have the idea when they think of spirits is something like a soul without a body. This is the wrong idea. We do not understand what a spirit body is, however it is ever bit as real as a human body and probably even more real then that.

      I would not limit a description of the nature of Jesus and the glorified Church to the word “spirit,” however this is a term applied to both and exactly what “spirit” means we cannot say, not having experienced it. Angels too are spirits. God, Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. However God and Jesus are on a glorified Divine plane which is far above the angels. What exactly this all means, we cannot understand. We live in a material three dimensional world (plus time). In terms of quantum physics, the angels might be on a five or six dimensional world, which perhaps is what is called heaven, although I can’t really say since I do not understand heaven. However, I think heaven is outside the material realm and man is material, therefore Jesus can no longer be a man (also because he sacrificed his perfect humanity as a ransom price and cannot take it back). A man with lungs to breath oxygen, a stomach to digest food and feet to walk on the ground are not designed to survive or operate in heaven.

      When angels materialize, they become men. They are no longer spirits until they return to that condition. Same was true of Jesus. When he materialized, he was no longer spirit or in a spirit body until he returned to that divine spirit body.

      You said, “To simply say Jesus and his body members are simply invisible spirit beings falls in the realms of the gnostic views that crept into early Christianity…” How would you explain that Bible verses describes Jesus and the Bride of Christ when glorified as Spirit? I find the Gnostic view offensive and contrary to scripture.

      You said, “I simply believe that the Heaven and Hell belief is deeply steeped in Gnosticism and the Hellenistic age…” The fact is that Heaven and Hell are in the Bible. I think we agree on the definition of Hell as the condition of death or oblivion or extinction. I am simply acknowledging that the word heaven is in the Bible and the article reviews scriptural evidence for who exists in heaven. Exactly what heaven is, I cannot say. I am inclined to define it in quantum physics terms as anything above four dimensions (the material world), however that view is mere speculation. Perhaps you can do better.

      You said, “Paul viewed Jesus as a Man, an immortalized man (1Tim 2:5, 1Cor 15:21, Acts 17:31)”

      I think the scriptures allude to the fact that Jesus once was a perfect material human being, but no longer is so.

      The scriptures you site can be well harmonized with scriptures showing Jesus as a spirit being after his resurrection. These three verses refer back to the value of Jesus ransom sacrifice as a perfect human being. Based on that as a glorified spirit being he can exercise his power of the mediator of mankind and raise the world of mankind from the dead.

      I understand that you are taking these verses to mean that he continued to be a man after his resurrection. However, those verses do not explicitly say so and need to be harmonized with the Bible as a whole.

      By definition of the word RANSOM, it is an exact and equal exchange – one life perfect life (Jesus) for one perfect life (Adam) – NOT one life for many lives. See more by clicking here:

      Since Jesus paid his perfect human life in exchange for Adam, I do not believe he cannot take it back. I realize you are not saying that exactly, however as a “New Creation” you seem to be saying that Jesus in part was recreated as a perfect man, yet much more??? Not exactly sure how you are viewing it. However, I don’t think Jesus simply sacrificed the human body he had for 33 1/2 years, but rather he sacrificed his life rights to perfect humanity. That was his ransom price. To take it back would be like paying a $1,000 at the store for a product (redeeming Adam), then taking another $1,000 out of the cash register and putting it back in your pocket. In essence, you got the product for free at no cost.

      That is how I view it, however I can understand and respect your point of view, even if different.

      • Anon CJ

        Don’t forget Matthew 11:11. If they were both on earth then this scripture would make no sense.

        Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Anon,

          Great point showing Jesus followers IN kingdom of heaven and all greater than John on earth. Thanks.

        • Bret (B.S.)

          Anon CJ:

          Simple fact Jesus was pointing out is that the least of those who inherit the Kingdom, thus immortality is greater than such a noble man as John!

          Simple fact the promise made to Abraham was to inherit the Land/Earth, or Kingdom/Heavenly Kingdom, or simply age to come/world

          Romans 4:17 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

          Galatians 3:29 And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise

          The promise made to Abraham and to his seed is the same promise for a Christian….

          Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
          Rev 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they shall rule as kings on the earth.

          • Anon CJ

            Incorrect. Bret. You’re trying to hard to make scripture fit your views. So you’re saying that a man that is so praised in the scripture in Matthew 11:11 is not going to be in the Kingdom of the heavens? If they are both on the earth you’re saying one is. It worthy to be grouped with the other? It works if ones in one place and one is in the other. If they both enter an earthly reward then why is one who is so greatly praised lesser than those in the Kingdom of the heaven. Sorry your alone on your view. The tabernacle should show you that the Holy of Holies which represents heaven show that the blood of the goat sacrifice enters into heaven.

            • Bret

              Anon;

              One only has to consider the context to understand what it means for us to have a “New and living way through the curtain…

              Is Hebrews 6:19,20 and 10:19,20 refering to a literal entrance into heaven for a christian?

              Heb 6:19 which we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and stedfast and entering into that which is within the veil; 20 whither as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

              American Standard Version Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

              Boldness to enter into the holiest – Margin, “liberty.” The word rendered “boldness” – παῤῥησίαν parrēsian – properly means “boldness of speech,” or freedom where one speaks all that he thinks (notes, Acts 4:13); and then it means boldness in general, license, authority, pardon. Here the idea is, that before Christ died and entered into heaven, there was no such access to the throne of grace as man needed. Man had no offering which he could bring that would make him acceptable to God. But now the way was open. Access was free for all, and all might come with the utmost freedom. The word “holiest” here is taken from the holy of holies in the temple (notes on Hebrews 9:3), and is there applied to heaven, of which that was the emblem. The entrance into the most holy place was forbidden to all but the high priest; but now access to the real “holy of holies” was granted to all in the name of the great High Priest of the Christian profession.
              By the blood of Jesus – The blood of Jesus is the means by which this access to heaven is procured. The Jewish high priest entered the holy of holies with the blood of bullocks and of rams (notes, Hebrews 9:7); but the Saviour offered his own blood, and that became the means by which we may have access to God.

              So the context is not speaking about Christians someday living the Heavenly Spirit realm but it is our being able to approach God freely..

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Bret,

                Hebrews 9:24 (NKJV) “For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;”

                In Leviticus 16, when Aaron, the High Priest, entered the Most Holy compartment and sprinkled the blood of the Bullock on the Mercy Seat, this pictured Jesus, after 40 days and before Pentecost, going into heaven itself and presenting his blood (blood of the Bullock) to satisfy justice for Aaron and his sons (for the New Creation). Hence the blood being applied for Aaron’s house, the New Creation received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The “holy places” or Most Holy compartment is heaven itself

                Hebrews 6:19 refers back to the covenant with Abraham. Our “hope” in that covenant (“behind the veil” in the “holiest” compartment) is to be part of the spiritual heavenly seed (Gal 3:29), the “stars of heaven,” to bless all the families of the earth. (Genesis 2:17-18).

                The scriptures below with Strong’s #s for veil (2665) and Holiest (39) taken together show that this Holiest place is the second compartment that Aaron entered on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat and it pictures “heaven itself.” Heb 9:24.

                Hebrews 6:19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil (2665),

                Hebrews 9:3 and behind the second veil (2665), the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest (39) of All (39)

                Hebrews 10:20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil (2665), that is, His flesh,

                Hebrews 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All (39) was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

                Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place (39) once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

                Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places (39) made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

                Hebrews 9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place (39) every year with blood of another–

                Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest (39) by the blood of Jesus,

                Hebrews 13:11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary (39) by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp.

                • Bret

                  Peter;

                  The context of Hebrews chapter 10 is not speaking about gaining life in Heaven but is speaking about those Christians now having a way to communicate or approach God freely…

                  Please read the entire chapter and see that it is now available to a man as never before to approach god in prayer and have access to him because of Christ offering a sacrifice that makes that available…

                  Now we have a living way through the curtain!!!! So are you saying a christian does not have to die to enter Heaven???

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Bret,

                    Thanks for your deep thoughts.

                    Hebrews is in my opinion generally the worst translated book in the Bible. Most translators try to fix Paul’s word’s because they really don’t understand what he is saying.

                    A major key to understanding Hebrews is following each given Greek word throughout the book and accepting that Paul always means the same thing by the same Greek word and is nearly 100% consistent. (Words like “perfect” and “hope.” Except for example “sin” can be “sin” or “sinoffering depending on context) If translators went by this rule, the book would not be so misunderstood.

                    Getting back to the point, I am guessing you did not understand my comments since you did not attempt to refute them.

                    Let me summarize:

                    In Hebrews, the Strong’s #s for veil (2665) and Holiest (39) taken together show that this Holiest place is the second compartment that Aaron entered on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat and it pictures “heaven itself.” as demonstrated in Heb 9:24.

                    Hence the verses you answered in Hebrews 6:19,20 and 10:19,20 refer to our hope of entrance into “heaven itself” as the Antitypical Melchhizedek Priesthood.

                    • Bret

                      Peter;

                      Yes I understand that Jesus entered into heaven and has now made it possible for us to approach God and have a relationship with him…
                      But the context of these verses are speaking about a Christian now gaining access to live in Heaven..

                      19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness* for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water

                      10:19 *Or, “freeness of speech.” Lit., “outspokenness.”

                      Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

                      Ro 5:2 through whom also we have gained our approach by faith into this undeserved kindness in which we now stand; and let us exult, based on hope of the glory of God.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Bret,

                      Let me share why I am so convinced by a consistent interpretation of words in the book of Hebrews. The words “veil” (Strong’s 2665) and “Holiest” (Strong’s 39) in these two verses you are quoting (below), according to the usage of these words in Hebrews are referring to the “Most Holy” compartment of the tabernacle which housed the mercy seat. Hebrews 9:24 defines this location as “heaven itself.”

                      Here are the verses you are quoting with Stong’s #s referenced.

                      Hebrews 6:19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil (2665)

                      Hebrews 10:19-20 (NKJV) “19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest (39) by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil (2665), that is, His flesh,

                      Okay, so the location you are referring to is in the “Holiest place… through the veil.”

                      Hebrews 9:24 defines this location as “heaven itself.”

                      Hebrews 9:24-25 (NKJV) “24 For Christ has not entered the holy places (39) made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place (39) every year with blood of another–

                      Further confirmation that the second compartment containing the mercy seat is in the scriptures below.

                      Hebrews 9:3 and behind the second veil (2665), the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest (39) of All (39)

                      Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place (39) once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

                      Hebrews 13:11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary (39) by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp.

                      In Leviticus 16, when Aaron, the High Priest, entered the Most Holy compartment and sprinkled the blood of the Bullock on the Mercy Seat, this pictured Jesus, after 40 days and before Pentecost, going into heaven itself and presenting his blood (blood of the Bullock) to satisfy justice for Aaron and his sons (for the New Creation). Hence the blood being applied for Aaron’s house, the New Creation received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The “holy places” or Most Holy compartment is heaven itself

                      Hebrews 6:19 refers back to the covenant with Abraham. Our “hope” in that covenant (“behind the veil” in the “holiest” compartment) is to be part of the spiritual heavenly seed (Gal 3:29), the “stars of heaven,” to bless all the families of the earth. (Genesis 2:17-18).

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Bret,

            I am not sure you have answered Anon’s point.

            Luke 7:28 (KJV) “For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

            Lu 13:28 (NKJV) “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.”

            Both of these scriptures are talking about the future kingdom after the resurrection from the dead. John was greater than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who will all be in that kingdom. Yet in what sense will they be less than Jesus followers?

            1Co 15:50 (NKJV) “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.”

            1Co 6:9 (NKJV) “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?”

            Jesus explained to Nicodemus that one could not enter the kingdom of God unless they became like the wind, a spirit being.
            John 3:5 & 8 (NKJV) “5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God… 8 “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

            Summing up, the New Creation is greater in that they are spirit beings that inherit’s the kingdom of God with it’s two phases, heavenly and earthly. (Just as God promised to Abraham that his seed would be blessed as the stars of heaven and sands of the sea shore.)

            Inheriting and ruling over the earth does not make the New Creation earthly beings any more than the following scriptures make God and the angels earthly beings.

            Psalms 47:2 (ESV) “For the Lord, the Most High, is to be feared, a great king over all the earth.”

            Psalms 34:7 (ESV) “7 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them.”

      • Bret (B.S.)

        Peter:

        my “Gnosticism” reference was not to the existence of Heaven where Yahweh resides or to the angelic creatures who reside with him…

        It is to the Gnostic teaching that humans who have become spirit beings will go and live in Heaven… A statement Jesus never made and a belief that Jews of that day never even considered….

        Jesus spoke of the “Chayay Olam” Dan 12:2, or the “Zoe Aionios” Age to Come….
        This term Aionios is a adjective that is speaking of the coming age….

        Unfortunately this term was replaced by a very vaig term “Everlasting, or Eternal” that simply does not interpret these very jewish terms… And from these terms when not interpreted you can conjure up ideas of invisible spirits in heaven, and mortal humans living forever on earth, even though there is never 1 single reference to mortals and forever…

        • Bret (B.S.)

          Peter:

          Instead of the age to come being the Kingdom of God on earth or heavenly kingdom “heavenly simply being its source because it is synonymous of the Kingdom of God, the divisions of realms and levels of life exist within the bible student doctrines… Shall I list them….

          The 144,000 Immortal spirit beings living in heaven
          The Great crowd who do not possess immortality? and also live in Heaven? (Not sure where this resurrection to spirit life but not as immortals comes from?) because it spoken of nowhere in the Bible..
          The resurrected Faithful men of old, who are somehow resurrected without being subject to second death on earth as rulers subordinate to the 144,000 who the great crowd relay direction too???
          then the mortals who shall although being mortal live forever??

          That is a whole lot added to the Bible with only the simple promise made to Abraham that his seed (Which included christians who were grafted in Romans 11) would inherit the land… Did I mention a Heavenly country Heb 11:16 but not literally heaven for we all know Abraham was not promised Heaven…

          • Bret (B.S.)

            Peter:

            Heaven can be such a confusing term for so manny, but when considered in terms of some very practical terms it can be better understood…

            Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God….

            John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.
            James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.

            How about Celestial bodies or heavenly bodies such as those spoken of in 1 Corinthians the 15th chapter?

            2 Cor 5:2 says those bodies are prepared in Heaven and that we shall receive them from heaven…. We realize that they are not right now a body sitting there waiting for us to die and receive it???
            But these bodies are said to be “Aionios” that is for the “age to come” or Agely bodies since we do not have an adjective to describe this jewish term…

            But we are waiting to receive these spiritual, heavenly prepared bodies… Not bodies that give out or that are “Mortal” such as our very mortal “corruptible” flesh and blood/not eternal bodies, but those that are prepared for the age to come that is everlasting incorruptible bodies that can last as long as Gods Kingdom lasts…

            Not bodies driven by blood and also liable to death and the eventuality of death but bodies driven by spirit… spiritual bodies…

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Bret,

              Adam was not immortal, yet he would have lived forever had he not sinned. Are you suggesting Adam was immortal and that an immortal man can die? Adams body was prepared on earth (Gen 2:7), not in heaven. He was mortal.

              What evidence do you have that mortal men cannot live forever? Obviously sinful mortal men are corruptable, grow old and die. What about perfect mortal men like Adam and Jesus? Theoretically, Jesus could have lived forever on earth if he had chosen not to die for mankind. Right? Jesus was not immortal. He received immortality upon his resurrection.

              The only ones described as having immortality are God, Jesus and the glorified New Creation (scriptures cited in a previous post). What scriptures do you have to show that angels or mankind in the kingdom will be immortal?

              You don’t have to be immortal to live forever. The difference is that immortality does not depend on food or oxygen or anything outside it’s body to survive. Immortality is one having life within themselves. (John 5:26; 6:23)

              • Bret

                Peter;

                You say Adam would not have died had he not sinned yet the bible says the gift God gives is everlasting life or eternal life (Life in the Age to Come) I would argue that if Adam would have completed his commision by God to fill the earth and subdue it he would have gain immortality…
                he would have ate from the tree of life, just as the bride of Christ (Rev 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.)
                This is also extended to those who pass the little season at the end of the 1,000 years.. Rev 22:2,14

                I believe that Adam had the prospects of gaining immortality and therefore would be greater than the Angelic spirit creatures whom would be public servants thus leading to Satans jealous actions…

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Bret,

                  Thanks. This is a great discussion and you have given the topic a lot of thought.

                  However there is no scriptural statements I am aware of supporting your conclusions as follows:

                  1) Adam would have gained immortality after completing his commission to fill the earth.

                  My answer: See scripture citations below. Eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would incur the death penalty. Hence if Adam had not eaten of it, there would be no death penalty and no reason for him to eventually die and no reason not to live forever like the angelic spirits who are NOT immortal. Jehovah/Yahweh never gave any indication that Adam would ever die outside of disobedience.

                  2) Adam would have lived forever by eating from the tree of life

                  My answer: True. However, prior to sinning, we do not know if Adam needed to eat of the tree of life to live forever. Maybe or maybe not. What we do know is that once Adam sinned and began to die, the remedy was “the tree of life” which God would not permit. Nothing is stated about immortality. As a matter of fact, if Adam were eating of the tree of life prior to sinning, clearly eating of that tree did not make him immortal. Hence we have no evidence of a scriptural option of immortality for Adam.

                  3) Once Adam gained immortality he would be greater than the Angelic spirit creatures.

                  My answer: There is no Bible verse I am aware of that teaches that Adam or mankind on earth after the 1,000 years would ever attain to immortality. We know that Adam and Jesus were perfect men, a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:6-9). We know that up to the point of Jesus’ resurrection, that only he and Jehovah/Yahweh had immortality and that the angels are not immortal (1 Timothy 6:16). How then can the angels live forever if they are not immortal according to your thinking?

                  SCRIPTURE CITATIONS

                  “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Ge 2:16-17 NKJV)

                  “Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; “but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.” (Ge 3:1-7 NKJV)

                  “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” — therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Ge 3:22-24 NKJV)

                  “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

                  • Bret

                    Peter;

                    I will get back to much of your questions, later but with regards to the Angels living forever? 1st the they are not said to be mortals anywhere in the Bible or to be of flesh and blood, which human mortals are.
                    So this is only assumption on both your part and mine.. But we do know the Angels can be destroyed…

                  • Bret

                    My answer: True. However, prior to sinning, we do not know if Adam needed to eat of the tree of life to live forever. Maybe or maybe not. What we do know is that once Adam sinned and began to die, the remedy was “the tree of life” which God would not permit. Nothing is stated about immortality. As a matter of fact, if Adam were eating of the tree of life prior to sinning, clearly eating of that tree did not make him immortal. Hence we have no evidence of a scriptural option of immortality for Adam.

                    Peter; The tree was in the Garden before Adam had sinned… both of us can only make assumptions because of the lack of scriptures that touch the subject… But it appears that what you are saying is that Adam could live forever without eating from the tree but that it was not needed to gain everlasting life…
                    Sorry but this is not ligical! What is the purpose of the tree? Insurance incase he sinned? Pose a test?

                    Additional note, the entire old testement is void of the word immortality unless you can site the text where found?
                    Eternal or everlasting life is what the Hebrews i believe viewed as immortal or unable to die…

                  • greg (Bible Student)

                    I’d like to follow up on some of the comments exchanged recently between Peter and Bret regarding Adam and the Tree of Life. I agree with Peter when he said (I paraphrase) whether Adam ate from it or not (before eating from the Tree of Knowledge) it seems clear that he would have continued to live despite having sinned if he’d been able to access the Tree of Life.

                    Thinking about that as I was conversing today, it occurred to me that the Angels (demons) that sinned before the flood, are not immortal (un-die-able/un-kill-able) but they have not yet died–even though they have sinned. Moreover, there seems to be no evidence in the scriptures (that I am aware of) to suggest that they ever will die unless they are specifically dealt with and a sentence of the death-penalty is externally imposed upon them after having been judged (i.e.: not having been judged as of yet).

                    2 Peter 2:4 = For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

                    1 Cor. 6:3 = Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

                    Rev. 20:10 = And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire…

                    I had something more I wanted to build onto that thought, but I lost it before I could type it out. Maybe it will come back to me.

                    Aside from that, I am very keen on gaining a better understanding the subject, precise nature, and purpose of the Tree of Life. I believe that Revelation 22:2, 14 are in no small way related and connected to Genesis 3:22

                    Gen. 3:22 = And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

                    Rev. 22:2 = In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

                    Rev. 22:14 = Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                    I realize these are somewhat fragmented and orphaned thoughts, but I was hoping to find some peaceful, uninterrupted time to develop them. It didn’t happen as I had hoped. Thus I hope they are, at the very least, somewhat accurate representations of the ideas I was trying to describe.

                    -greg

                    • Lee Anthony

                      Greg,
                      What you just said brought to mind something I was reading the other day as I have been following the ongoing discussion. This is a direct word for word quote from a book I have called “The bible knowledge word study” (Merrill, Cook) Regarding: TREE OF LIFE, (I cant type the Hebrew word shown 🙂 “The tree of life is that which ostensibly provided sustenance for continued existence. It was this tree that was to be guarded after the Fall to keep man from taking its fruit and living “forever” (3:22). One does not know if one bite of its fruit would have yielded continued physical existence forever, or if it would have been necessary to continually eat from it to produce those same results.
                      Either way, it was to be no longer accessible after the Fall. Metaphorically, the phrase is used in Prov. 3:18 and 11:30 referring to obtaining wisdom and living righteously respectively, but it is not used in the same sense as Gen. 2-3 again until the end times when the tree is found in the heavenly New Jerusalem (Rev. 2:7; 22:2,14,19.”

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Greg,

                      Evidently the Fallen Angels who do not repent will eventually be destroyed.

                      Matthew 25:31, 41 (ESV) When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
                      Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

                    • Bret

                      Greg;

                      I find this point interesting…

                      Every time the tree of life is mentioned, “Everlasting life is linked to it

                      Gen. 3:22 = And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

                      Notice last portion of verses quoted above “and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

                      Notice also what is stated at Rev 2:7 …..To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

                      Notice Obedience is required to eat of the “Tree of Life”. Now wether or not that is eating literally or metephoricaly we cannot say for certain, but no Christian that has died has literally taken and eaten from the tree but they are guarenteed a resurrection.

                      At the End of the melinium it speaks of those who are found faithful as needing to benefit from the tree or trees of life also.

                      Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

                      Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      When I stated that Adam would receive everlasting life or immortality (Mortal vs immortal) by remaining obedient and being able to eat from the tree of life, these points were what I had in mind, but due to being in middle of work and not having the time to use my cell fone and give a scripture for every point is verry difficult..

                      There really would be no point of the tree if it were not needed for Adam to have everlasting life…
                      I believe it to have been his reward for obedience…

                    • greg (Bible Student)

                      Thank you, Lee. Thank you, Peter.

                      And yes, Peter, that was precisely the point I had in mind.

                      Put in a way that perhaps confuses more than it clarifies, the wicked (fallen) angels are not (to my knowledge) currently in a dying condition. (Or are there scriptures that I’m overlooking or forgetting?) These wicked angels may be described as spiritually dead, perhaps. But unless there is an outside intervention, some judgement and then some death-sentence given to those unrepentant angels, they would continue to live as they have done, despite being wicked.

                      Remembering that my original reason for speaking about this had to do with Bret’s conversation surrounding the location of “heaven”, the natures of the various beings who reside in heaven, immortality, the nature of living forever, the questions regarding the difference between man’s spirit and Spirit Beings, and the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, I want to ask some questions that seem to me to be important and relevant to the discussion.

                      James 1:14-15 says: “But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.” (NET)

                      So how come the fallen angels aren’t dying? Whereas Adam only lived for 930 years, why is that these angels have continued to live until now?

                      Does it have to with the difference in design? Can angels actually live forever? Was Adam really designed to live forever? Is that where the difference lies? Does it have to do with the concept of sin? I mean, even though the Bible describes these angels as fallen and wicked, have they actually sinned?

                      In Romans 4:15 the Apostle Paul said, “… because where there is no law there is no transgression either.” (NET)

                      So have the angels transgressed? Have they broken any laws? How can they repent and continue living without some sort of atonement, some sort of peace offering between them and God? Do they also need some sort of a redeemer?

                      I’m not necessarily wanting to find, nor provide answers to these questions at this time. I mean, I’m curious. I’m interested. I’m even intrigued. And I do already have many answers that I find both very satisfying and scripturally consistent.

                      So I’m really only asking these questions because, to me, they are worth asking. Sometimes a question is more beautiful, more precious, more meaningful, more inspiring to me than the answer.

                      And I ask these questions within the context of the discussion regarding the concepts of the location of heaven, the nature of the beings who will live there, immortality, forever, mortal, Adam, the Tree of Life, because I see these as all providing clues and parts of the accurate understanding of things.

                      Even without discussing possible answers, the questions suggest to me that there are crucial and significant differences between the nature of fleshly (human) bodies, angelic creatures, and the Divine Nature. I also find that the questions suggest to me that there are a lot of things about which we can only speculate. I would not want to imply that it is wrong to make speculation, but I would very much want to avoid forgetting that I was engaging in speculation.

                      I’d much prefer to remain cognizant of the fact that “could be” and “definitely is” are two very different attitudes to adopt.

                      The original questions that Bret was asking (as I understood them) regarding “Where exactly is heaven? What does the Bible really say about it? From where did we get our popular belief about the location and nature of heaven? What does it mean to live there?” leave me wanting to ask many more questions that I see as potentially relevant.

                      For example, are the Nephilim going to be resurrected? Why wouldn’t they? Would they be resurrected as hybrids, or as 100% human? The fact that the angels could even materialize for themselves human bodies, and yet subsequently produced offspring that weren’t fully 100% human suggests to me that their materialized forms were sufficiently similar to humans that inter-breeding could occur, but sufficiently different that they were considered super-human. These hybrids were born through no choice, nor fault of their own, but their actions and treatment of others were not the least bit noble. But had they sinned? Were their angelic fathers perfect? Does fallen and wicked equate with having sinned? And were these hybrids born “perfect”, or imperfect and in a dying condition? Would they have lived longer than humans? Would they have ever died as a natural result of their own imperfect condition, or would they have continued to live on even as their demonic fathers have if it hadn’t been for the flood?

                      You see, for me, there are LOTS of clues here that I might never be able to decipher and answer with certainty, and thus I might never be able to fully integrate then into my understanding. Even so, the questions can be learned from. And this brings me back to Adam and the Tree of Life, and what I said regarding the fallen angels not dying.

                      Was Adam created like the animals in that he would eventually expire unless he was constantly “recharged” by the Tree of Life? Some JW’s teach that Adam would eventually have been granted the privilege of eating of the Tree of Life after he had passed the “test” of the Tree of Knowledge. Yet would not that understanding suggest that BOTH trees were forbidden then?

                      So now, if Adam was created in a dying condition like the animals, and if he needed to regularly eat of the Tree of Life so as to perpetually stave off imminent death, that stands in sharp contrast to the angels. There must be some reason that they keep living even though some of them have forsaken their original stations, roles, and dwelling places. (Jude verse 6)

                      In my mind, these questions and this contrast which I just emphasized gives me a lot of information to consider when trying to formulate a clear picture of heaven, immortality, eternal life, living forever, human existence, angelic creatures, and the Divine Nature.

                      As always, I try hard to guard against saying what “IS” (God-speak) and prefer to question and draw tentative (yet increasingly confident) conclusions about how I am currently perceiving and making sense of my ever-increasing awareness. “…Each must be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5 NET)

                      I sincerely hope that something in here made some sort of sense to somebody.

                      Always curious and eager to learn,
                      -greg

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Bret,

            NEW CREATION TO BE IN HEAVEN

            Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”

            1 Peter 1:3-4 (NKJV) “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,”

            Heb 10:34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven <3772>.

            Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven

            2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens <3772>.

            2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven

            Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven>, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

            Col 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,

            JESUS IN HEAVEN

            1 Peter 3:22 (NKJV) “who [Jesus] has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God,”

            1Thess 1:10 (NKJV) “and to wait for His Son from heaven”

            1Thes 4:16 (NKJV) “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven”

            Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens <3772>, Jesus the Son of God,

            Heb 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens

            Heb 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

            1Cor 15:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven <3772>.

            Eph 6:9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

            Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven>, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

            Acts 3:20-21 (NKJV) “20 “and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things,”

            • Bret (B.S.)

              Peter I would like to respond to each of these scriptures.. Context and who and when need to be considered in each of these scriptures.. Also the fact that everything we receive comes down from Heaven or God and we shall receive our reward not when we go to heaven but at Christ return..

              Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”

              (Reply-Here Paul is speaking to living breathing Christians in Philippi… How do they already have a citizenship in heaven? They are of the household of God (Eph 2:6, and 19) Fellow citizens and members of the household of God… Notice it doesn’t say what you are implying that these would go and live in heaven…)

              1 Peter 1:3-4 (NKJV) “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,”

              (Reply- All things are reserved for us in heaven so that When Christ returns we shall receive our reward Rev 22:14, Jesus even said to store up in heaven… The text does not say we shall go to heaven to receive our reward)

              Heb 10:34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven .

              (Reply- Same as our last text.. No scripture says we go to Heaven to gain our reward, Jesus returns and gives to each one his reward Philipians 3:21 says we “await him from heaven” James 1:17 and John 3:27 both say that every good thing we receive comes down from Heaven i.e. God…)

              Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven

              (Reply_Again another scripture speaking contactually of living breathing christians who have not died and gone to heaven and says these christians are already registered in Heaven, not to go live their but that their choosing is with God on his role call not an earthly existing church roll or organization…)

              2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens .

              2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven

              (Reply- This is our immortal bodies now being prepared in heaven.. An Aionios Body that is the “Age to come” it says from heaven not that we go to heaven to get an already prepared existing body… Context again is not saying anything about a Christian going to Heaven to gain or receive this body)

              Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven>, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

              (Context again is speaking about living breathing Christians who when Paul wrote this text were said to have their Citizenship in the heavens… This scripture is being utilized completely out of context)

              Col 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,

              (Heaven is the same as saying your hope is “laid up with God”, this is not saying a Christians hope is heavenly life but our hope is to be Kings and Priests with christ co-rulers or governors over the earth…

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Bret,

          Your points on Gnosticism, age to come and eternal are interesting. You are refuting lines of reasoning that we have not used to support our view on this website.

          Daniel 12:2 (Rotherham) “and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,–these, shall be to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;”

          I think the Rotherham translation is in line with what you are saying. So what is your point? Are you saying that those awaken to age-abiding life will end up dying again?

          I think the implication of the Revelation 20 little season is that in the earthly kingdom, those of the resurrected mankind who follow Satan will be destroyed in second death. (Rev 20:7-15; 21:27; 22:14-15) For the remaining majority of mankind following Jehovah/Yahweh, there will be no more death (Rev 21:4). If there is no more death, that means they live forever. There is no Bible verse that says the people resurrected on earth will gain immortality.

          • greg (Bible Student)

            Hi Peter. Hi Bret.

            At the risk of opening my mouth and laying bare my own ignorance, I’m remembering that I once puzzled over the difference between eternal life and immortality. As I slowly came to understand it, immortality means “not possible to die”. Eternal life simply means “possible to live forever”. There is a slight but important difference.

            To maybe express my picture even more clearly, I’m of the understanding that the being of the Divine Nature means to possess immortality, and that means that the spirit being possesses life entirely within itself. On the other hand, for a human being to live forever, that human will still have to continue to take in nourishment and other physical components to sustain that life. Whereas to have life within one’s self requires no intake of anything to sustain one’s life.

            It occurs to me just now that another way I might tentatively express it is that immortality means independently self-sufficient, whereas living forever is a dependent self-sufficiency.

            Does that even make sense to anyone except me?

            -greg

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Makes a lot of sense to me Greg.

            • Bret (B.S.)

              Greg:

              Thanks for offering your thoughts its appreciated.. But I have a couple questions for you!

              1) Where in the scriptures does it describe everlasting life separate from Eternal life?

              Jesus used the words “Zoe Aionios” which means “Life In the Age To Come”, this is vaguely described as everlasting.. But the Jews believed in this age we are living and the age to come which is Gods Kingdom or endless age of the Messiah and his rule…

              2) Have you ever read or seen a scripture describing mortal men as living forever?
              Notice Isiaiah 65:There shall be no more thence an infant of many days, “nor an old man that hath not filled his days”
              an old man who does not fill his days indicates the old man lives long life but still dies…
              or verse 22 “for as the days of the tree shall be the days of my people” trees do not last forever and I believe this to be speaking of those 1,000 years where people can still pass away though living long and possibly dying off old due to not living according to what is required.. At the end of the 1,000 years those who survive shall eat from the trees of life just as Adam could have and the anointed do!

              • greg (Bible Student)

                Peter and Jacqueline,

                I really appreciate the reassuring feedback. Thanks!

                Bret,

                I’m not in a place to argue with your questions, partly because I suspect I’m missing some part of your picture. However, I am sincerely curious to hear how Genesis 3:3 and 3:22 fit into your picture?

                -greg

                • Bret

                  Greg;

                  Very good question, and thanks for asking that…

                  Gen 3:3 I believe was a test of Adams loyalty and indicates that the time for Adam to eat of that tree of life was yet future after he fullfilled all that was required of him by God..

                  Gen 3:22 I believe drives home my point… eternal life was only available to Adam if he were to eat from the tree of life.. If eternal life was inherent in Adam there would be no need for the Tree of life, and that is why it had to be guarded from his eating of it…

                  If Adam had eternal life to begin with, would there be a need for the tree of life? Obviously the answer is no! The tree of life which would be available for him to eat from if he was loyal in carrying out Gods plan I believe would provide Adam with indestructable life as we call it immortality…

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Bret,

                    Before Adam sinned, God did not tell him that he was required to eat of the tree of life in order to live forever. As a matter fact, what killed Adam was the disobedience in eating the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

                    Genesis 2:16-17 (ESV) And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
                    but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

                    So Adam would not have died had he not disobeyed and had he not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Once he had done this, his only immediate hope of living forever was to eat from the Tree of Life.

                    Genesis 3:22 (ESV) Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”

                    So Adam could live forever if only he could eat of the Tree of Life, but nothing is said about immortality.

                    All mankind has eaten of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil through father Adam.

                    Romans 5:12 (ESV) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

                    So it makes sense that perhaps they would need to eat of the Tree of Life in order to recover from that and live forever. However, Revelation is so symbolic it’s hard to say if a literal tree of life like in the garden is exactly what is meant.

                    Now what about Jesus? He had no Tree of Life to eat from, yet even so, Jesus was perfect and sinless. He was not condemned to death by Justice for sin. So hypothetically Jesus could have decided to just live on Earth forever and not sacrifice his life. Right? Ridiculous as that option is, hypothetically if Jesus had chosen that path are you suggesting he would have died because he did not have the Tree of Life to eat from? I though sin is what condemned Adam to death.

                  • greg (Bible Student)

                    Bret,

                    I’m glad I asked. You’ve not only helped me see more clearly the picture you are seeing, but you’ve also given me some intriguing new food to contemplate and explore. I’m going to mull this over prayerfully before responding further.

                    Thanks again.

                    -greg

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Greg,

              Makes perect sense. I agree.

          • Bret (B.S.)

            Peter:

            At the end of the 1,000 years all who have passed the test will eat from the tree of life (Rev 22:2,14) Mortals cannot live forever even Jesus was said that he was no longer going to return to Corruption, so his physical body was still corruptible and would have eventually given out just as Adam and all who had not received the gift from God of immortality…

            Had adam filled the earth with his offspring and subdued it I believe him and all his loyal offspring would have eventually received immortality and thus no more procreation the earth would be filled and no longer would mortal men continue to procreate… Just as Jesus said they would not marry or be given in marriage because they would no longer be driven by hormonal desires as mortals…

            I do not believe that God would extend anything to us that was not available to Adam…

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Bret,

              Thanks for stating what you believe. I suggest that that every statement of belief is best backed up by direct scriptural evidence whenever possible. For example, you say, “I do not believe that God would extend anything to us that was not available to Adam.” I am glad to understand this is what you believe, however I have found that sometime the scriptures say something different that what I believed and that is when in the past I have had to reconsider my view.

              You said, “Mortals cannot live forever even Jesus was said that he was no longer going to return to Corruption, so his physical body was still corruptible and would have eventually given out just as Adam and all who had not received the gift from God of immortality…”

              My answer: Adam’s body gave up to corruption and decay because he was condemned to death (Gen 2:17). Otherwise, what evidence is there that he would have ever died had he remained obedient and never attained to the gift of immortality?

              You are referring to Acts 2:25-32 (see below) about corruption of the human body. Clearly the passage is pointing out after Jesus had been killed, his body did not corrupt (decay) like David’s body or any other human body. That is because Jesus’ physical body was removed from the tomb (John 2) and not allowed to decay. However, at his resurrection Jesus received a “new body,” just like we will. Not his old body.

              “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2Co 5:1 NKJV)

              “… what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.” (1Cor 15:36-38 NKJV)

              —————

              “”For David says concerning Him: ‘I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’ “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.” (Acts 2:25-32 NKJV)

              • Bret

                Peter;

                “I suggest that that every statement of belief is best backed up by direct scriptural evidence whenever possible. For example, you say, “I do not believe that God would extend anything to us that was not available to Adam.”

                I base this statement off of luke 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

                You say Adam didn’t loose out on immortality, only everlasting life as a human which is not stated in the scriptures but is assumed by scripture only..
                so you are stating that Jesus not only saved what was lost by Adam (Everlasting life as a mortal) but Jehovah added an additional priveledge for some (144,000) and that is life in Heaven as immortal invisible spirit creatures…

                You state that the scripture do not mention immortality in regards to Adam..
                I would ask, Give me a single Hebrew text that mentions “Immortality” in the old testemnet? I believe thats what everlasting ment to the Jews since this word didnt even exist in Hebrew…

                Yet Jesus not one time ever said a single thing about His followers receiving everlasting life in Heaven…

                Jesus only spoke about the Kingdom Coming (Matt 6:9,10) and his followers inheriting that Kingdom as well as life in the “Coming Age”, which is the age of the messiah…

                You excuse Matt 5:5 and ignore Revelation 5:10 “Kings on Earth” even my reference to the Holly Ones being being encircled in the beloved city on earth..

                Re 20:9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.

                • Bret

                  Peter;

                  Notice what the scriptures state with regards to the world to come…

                  Heb 2:5 For not unto angels did he subject the “world to come”, whereof we speak.

                  This is the promise to Abraham… “The world to come”

                  Ro 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith

                  We as Christians are heirs to that promise “The world to come”

                  Ga 3:29 And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Bret,

                  Thanks. You have made some very thoughtful comments. Let me respond to the following that you said:

                  Bret to Peter K
                  “You excuse Matt 5:5 and ignore Revelation 5:10 “Kings on Earth” even my reference to the Holly Ones being being encircled in the beloved city on earth…”

                  Matthew 5:5 (NKJV) “Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.”

                  If Matthew 5:5 means that the New Creation will live on earth, then by the same logic, wouldn’t Matthew 5:10 mean that they will live in hearven?

                  Matthew 5:10 (NKJV) “10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

                  I think the scriptures are talking about the kingdom of heaven that has both an earthly and heavenly phase.

                  God is the highest Divine Immortal Spirit Being. Does that fact that he walked in the garden with Adam or among Israel make God flesh and bone?

                  Genesis 3:8 (NKJV) “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”

                  Leviticus 26:12 (NASV) “‘I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.”

                  How do we explain Job? Was Satan a Spirit or flesh and blood?

                  Job 1:6-7 (NKJV) “6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
                  7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.””

                  Likely the mention of Satan walking back and forth on the earth is metaphorical. He is a powerful angelic/demon spirit being. So we need to be careful how we interpret scriptures that connect spirit beings with earth.

                  Angels interacted with the women at Jesus’ tomb. They appeared in a flesh and bone form, however they were spirit beings from heaven. (Luke 22:43; Matthew 18:10)

                  ——————-

                  Bret – You quoted Revelation 5:10 what says, “10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” (NKJV)

                  However spirit beings can reign over the earth. God is the highest of spirit beings.

                  Psalms 47:7 (NASV) “For God is the King of all the earth”

                  Micah 4:7 “…the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.”

                  ——————

                  Bret – you also quoted “”Re 20:9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.”

                  I believe you are quoting this text to demonstrate that the “saints” are on earth, not in heaven. However, note that “saints” is Strong’s 40 ἅγιος hagios hag’-ee-os. Same word is used in the scripture below

                  Revelation 22:11, 14-15 (NKJV) “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy <40>, let him be holy still… 14 Blessed are those who do His comm 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

                  The “saints” (Strong’s 40 “holy”) in Rev 22:11 are the holy of mankind on earth who enter the city, the New Jerusalem. So I think it is more likely that this is who is being spoken of in Revelation 20:9 regarding the “camp of the saints.” These are holy ones in the kingdom, perhaps in context of Revelation 20:9, the earthly leadership on earth (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, etc.). The Greek word is broad enough not to feel compelled to apply it to the glorified New Creation, so I do not see this as a proof text for Saints on earth in bodies of flesh and bones.

              • Bret

                Peter;

                You stated;

                “Thanks for stating what you believe. I suggest that that every statement of belief is best backed up by direct scriptural evidence whenever possible. For example, you say, “I do not believe that God would extend anything to us that was not available to Adam.” I am glad to understand this is what you believe, however I have found that sometime the scriptures say something different that what I believed and that is when in the past I have had to reconsider my view.”

                I find there are several doctrines that are listed without scripture to back, and i will give example;

                The “Great Crowd” a secondary group who are anointed and yet are not given immortality and are not a part of the first resurrection.

                Is it not true that Jesus as well as Paul only spoke of two resurrections? The righteous and the unrighteous…

                Can we not conclude that paul when he stated the “earlier resurrection”, was speaking about the first resurrection of the righteous.. Phil3:10 so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier* resurrection from the dead.
                *Gr. Out-resurrection

                Rev 20:4-6 ……..And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority

                In the scriptures there is not statement or evidence of anything other that the first resurrection to which those who belong to Christ receive IMMORTALITY and are not subject to second death, thus indicating they are immortal…
                then there is the resurrection to judgment we could call it the second, general or resurrection of the unrighteous who are subject to second death or destruction thus they are mortals…

                Please provide me with reference to any other resurrection other than those described here… there is only the promise to receive a resurrection like Jesus resurrection or to recieve one to judgement of which you would have to be mortal to be suject to death once again…

                Are the Faithful men of Old such as Abraham who is father of our faith coming back in the first resurrection or the other as “Mortal” and subject to judgment?

                Is the great crowd a part of the first resurrection i.e those belonging to Christ”, yet not as immortals described in 1 Corinthians 15? If so please give us evidence of another resurrection apart from this one for those belonging to Christ?

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Bret,

                  Thanks. These are great questions. I could only wish many more Christians thought as deeply about scriptures as you do.

                  I will address the resurrection questions and respond separately regarding the Great Crowd in a future response.

                  Let’s take a look at scriptures that seem to describe more than one resurrection.

                  John 5:28‭-‬29 (ESV) “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

                  World of mankind resurrected to judgement and training period. New Creation receive resurrection to life (except for those who go into second death)

                  Acts 24:14‭-‬15 (ESV) “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.”

                  Different classification. Just is all those justified by Fath and having a relationship with God, from Able to Noah to Abraham, etc. And finally to John the Baptist and then to the whole New Creation. Unjust are unjustified world of mankind, both good and bad.

                  Hebrews 11:35 (NASB) “Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection”

                  Ancient Worthies (Abraham, Samuel, Daniel, etc.) receive a better resurrection than mankind in general.

                  Hebrews 11:39‭-‬40 (NASB) “And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.”

                  Reward of New Creation better than that of Ancient Worthies.

                  Revelation 20:6 (NASB) “Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

                  This is the bride of Christ (144,000)
                  receiving immortality.

                  Daniel 12:2 (EBR) “and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,these, to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;”

                  Not so sure “Age abiding” does not mean forever here. Afterall, the righteous will live forever. The memory of the wicked behavior and wicked people will be remembered eternally.

                  Not sure what your thought is here Bret.
                  Are there any Old Testament scripture that you think contains the idea of eternity?

                  • Bret

                    Peter

                    Quote
                    “Hebrews 11:39‭-‬40 (NASB) “And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.”

                    Reward of New Creation better than that of Ancient Worthies.”

                    Peter it states, “Apart from us they would not be made perfect” this means then together they will be made perfec!

                    The context of “something better for us” her is speaking within the Hebrews writers subject… They “Faithful men of old” did not receive what was promised (See fulfilment of Messiah and receive his message) instead according to Hebrews chpt 2 they received it from Angels, but “We” Christians in Pauls day including us today received the messiahs good news and had fullfilment of the prophecies in him…

                    No where within the context of this scripture is it saying that those faithful men of old didnt get the “promise” (Rom 4:13, Gal 6:29) that was promised to them!

                    It is simply saying they died before the Messiah came and we Christians received the blessing of not only seeing him and recieving the good news delivered by him, but they (pre-christians) recieved their message or good news ftom something lessot… The Angels Hebrews 2 and 11

                    Faithful men of old like us await the City
                    Heb 11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God
                    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city.
                    Heb 13:14 For we have not here an abiding city, but we seek after the city which is to come

                    We along with them await the same city

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Bret,

                  Let’s consider the Great Crowd. It really doesn’t matter what you call them. To me here is the issue. Do we really think that the only possibilities for the New Creation are the Bride of Christ or Second Death? What about those in the middle, who love God but sometimes weaken and compromise God’s principles?

                  Some scriptural evidence for this secondary class of those who love God but fail to make their calling and election sure can be found at this link:

                  http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/05/01/what-happens-to-anointed-who-do-not-make-the-144000/

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