Effectively Debating the Trinity

If you are a JW going door to door, no doubt you often are drawn into discussions about the Trinity.  You may feel pretty set with your debate points on the topic, but it never hurts to get some more help, especially when you occasionally face Christians who have made proving their view of the Trinity a hobby.  Here is a book that will help you with more information and arguments to defend the view that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, but instead the created Son of God and the first of Jehovah’s creation, having had a pre-human existence.  In the book, The Doctrine of Christ,” you will find clear and overwhelming evidence from the Bible and history.

29 comments to Effectively Debating the Trinity

  • Joanna

    Hi Alex, and welcome. I’m going to just touch on the scripture you mention, before getting back to the context of John 1, which we were discussing.

    The Philippians 2 scripture you mentinoed is interesting. Perhaps looking at some other translations may help get the full meaning of this.

    From the American Literal Translation, “6 who existing in the nature of God, did not consider being equal to God something to be held onto,
    7 _but_ He emptied Himself, having taken the nature of a slave, having come to be in the likeness of people,”

    From the American Standard Version, “6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;”

    From the Diaglott interlinear translation, “6 who in a form of God being, not a usurpation meditated the to be like to God,
    7 but himself emptied, a form of a slave having taken, in a likeness of men having been formed,”

    From the Rotherham translation, “6 Who, in form of God, subsisting, not, a thing to be seized, accounted the being equal with God,
    7 But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant’s form, coming to be, in men’s likeness;”

    From the The Common Edition version, “6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.”

    The Twentieth Century English version states, “6 Though the divine nature was his from the beginning, yet he did not look upon equality with God as above all things to be clung to,
    7 But impoverished himself by taking the nature of a servant and becoming like men;”

    So, we can see from these translations that the meaning of this text is not that he was equal with God and didn’t consider that robbery, but that he was not doing as Satan did, trying to become “like the most high”, but emptied himself instead, laid off the spiritual nature (the form of God) and took on our lower nature. This truly shows his greatness and humility.

    As to whether Jesus felt he was equal with God or not, there are many texts where he says “my Father is greater than I”.

    I will be posting soon on the context of John 1, and look forward to your comments.
    🙂

    • Joanna

      Quick correction – it was the Analytical-Literal Translaton, not American Literal Translation…sorry about that.
      🙂

  • Alex

    Also, here is a question about a couple of key scriptures in the bible:

    Isaiah 44:6
    How many Gods does Jehovah say there are?
    Who is the first and the last?

    Isaiah 44:8
    How many Gods does Jehovah say there are?

    Isaiah 45:21-23
    How many Gods does Jehovah say there are?
    Who is the Savior?
    To whom will every one bow down and confess?

    John 1:1
    How many Gods do you see here? 1 or 2?
    Was Jehovah lying when he said there is only him and no other?

    Revelation 1:17
    Who is the first and the last?
    How many first and lasts can you have?

    Philippians 2:11
    To whom does every one confess?

    Titus 1:3,4
    Who is the savior?
    How come Jehovah says there is no other savior but himself?
    How many saviors are there?

    Revelation 1:8
    Who is the Alpha and Omega?

    Revelation 22:12,13……..16
    Who is the Alpha and Omega?
    Is it not the one who is coming soon?
    Verse 16 says ‘I Jesus’ does it not?

    Revelation 22:20
    Who is coming soon?
    If Jesus isn’t the Alpha and Omega then when is Jehovah coming?
    Is it right for the Holy Spirit and the Bride to confess Jesus and say Amen to him?
    Isn’t that worship?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Alex – The Trinity is a hard pill to swallow, as the word “Trinity” is no where to be found in the Bible. The only passage were we find the Father, Son and Holy Spirit mentioned together is Matt 28:19, but it does nothing at all to prove the Trinity. We know the Father cannot be tempted (James 3:13), yet Jesus was tempted by the devil (Matt 4:1). Although in John 10:30, he said, “I and the Father are one,” in John 17:21, Jesus prayed for his disciples “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us.”

      ONE GOD

      The Scriptures unequivocally teach that “to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1 Cor. 8:6). These are the two great personalities of the Bible, with the holy Spirit an expression of their power and influence. The Father, always supreme and preeminent, exists “from everlasting to everlasting.” The Son, the direct creation of the Father, was highly exalted for his faithfulness in becoming the world’s redeemer; yet he always remains in harmony with and in submission to his Father’s will.

      1 Cor. 8:5, 6 “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (All things are OF the Father and BY the son. Jesus is the agent of God.) Compare Heb. 1:1, 2; John 1:2, 3; Col. 1:16, 17; Gen. 1:26.

      1 Tim. 2:5-6 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (A mediator is one who endeavors to reconcile two opposing parties. Could Christ be God and still mediate between God and men? Ransom here means a “corresponding price.” How could a God-man be the exact equivalent of the perfect man Adam?)

      Paul did not want to replace Jewish belief in one God with a Christian belief in two Gods. Rather, he always regarded the Jesus who had been exalted by God’s spirit to God as subordinate to this one God and Father: as the Messiah, Christ, image, Son, of the one God. So his christocentricity remains grounded in and culminates in a theocentricity: ‘from God through Jesus Christ’—‘through Jesus Christ to God.’ To this degree Paul’s christology is directly compatible with Jewish monotheism.
      We realize, too, that Paul was not opposed by his Judaizing Jewish brethren because of his presentations of God. It was his opposition to bringing Gentile Christians under bondage to the Law arrangement that incurred their ire.

      ALPHA AND OMEGA

      Revelation refers to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega throughout. Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Interestingly, in Zech. 12:10 we read “They shall look upon ME whom they have pierced.” The word “ME” consists of the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, Aleph Tay. Jesus is the first and last in the sense that he is first (Col 1:16; Rev 3:14) and last of God’s direct creation, everything after that being created by Jesus (Col 1:16; 1 Cor 8:6; John 1:3). This expression might additionally have the meaning of Jesus being the complete A to Z salvation package. Rev 21:6 (NASV) says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.”

      In the Old Testament, Jehovah is referred to as the FIRST and the LAST (Isa 41:4; 44:6) in the sense that for Israel, He was there one true God. There were no other God’s that came before him or after him (Isa 43:10; 44:7,8)

      The fact that Jehovah and Jesus share various titles does not prove the Trinity, as even Jesus followers share various of his titles with him as in these examples:
      KINGS – Rev 1:6 – “has made us kings and priests to His God and Father” NKJV
      PRIESTS – Rev 20:6 – first resurrection…they shall be priests of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
      JUDGES – 1 Cor 6:2 – “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” NKJV

      Jesus followers are even described as sharing his throne with Him in Rev 3:21 which says, “He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

      SAVIOR

      You feel that since Jehovah is the only savior and since Jesus is our savior, therefore Jehovah and Jesus are the same person. Isaiah 9:6 gives our Savior the title, “The mighty God.” But the Jewish writers were not saying that the Messiah would literally be Jehovah. If judges of Israel were called “gods,” as in Ps. 82:1-7, what would be earthshaking about calling Jesus the “mighty God” (Hebrew, ‘El Gib-bohr’)? Notice, he is not called ‘El Shad-dai,’ a term exclusively applied to Jehovah. Further, “God” in the Isaiah text is the Hebrew EL, defined by Dr. Strong as “strength; as adj[ective] mighty; espec[ially] the Almighty (but used also of any deity).”2 The fact that the same word (EL) is used in Isa. 57:5 in describing idols shows indeed that it is a general term used to describe any mighty being and, hence, quite appropriately may be applied to our Savior, Jesus, in Isa. 9:6.

      Obadiah 1:21, referring to the 144,000 or (little flock), speaks of “saviors shall come up on mount Zion.” The bride of Christ, as his body members, will participate with Christ in saving the world of mankind on Paradise earth. This does not make the Church part of the Trinity, but simply demonstrates that Jehovah, as the author of Salvation, can accomplish this saving through his agents, particularly Christ and his body members.

  • Alex

    Joey, you rock! I also believe that the scriptures are dripping with the foundations of the trinity! It is the Holy Spirit who guides us through these truths as well.

    Also, Joey is right about Philippians 2 answering the ontoligical subordination issues. As does Galatians 4:4, and Hebrews 2:7 shed light on them as well.

    I would like to ask those who believe in the NWT a few questions:
    Who translated it?

    Why the inconsistency with the definite article rule? They translate Theos as ‘God’ without a definite article several times in that chapter?

    • Jacqueline

      Alex, Hello.
      I would like to answer the question on who wrote the NWT and get your thoughts on 1John 4:14,15, you might have covered it already but I missed it.

      The New World Translation Committee : Principle translator, Fred Franz (studied Greek for 2 yrs at the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught in Hebrew.)
      Other members were: Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. (Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz.p.17 footnote).
      I have also heard it said that Fred Franz had a Rabbi Friend that he consulted with often when translating.
      I am enjoying your posts, you are keeping everyone busy. (smile)Prov. 27:17 is correct when it says: “By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another.”

      May I ask, if you can tell us a little bit about yourself on the ask Jacqueline Page when you get a chance? This is the page where we get encouragement from hearing of each other’s Spiritual Journey, how you got where you are in Christ. From your Posts, it seems it will be good reading for you are well acquainted with scripture. Until we meet again.
      There are many that read your posts without commenting. Quite a few are exiting JWS. Hope to hear from you soon.
      In Christ.
      Jacqueline

  • Joanna

    Hi Again, I would like to start with John 1:1, as many trinitarians will use this as a proof that Jesus is God. You wrote “To me there is no need to write that john 1:1 is a god for I will never believe that is what John meant…He wrote Word was God…”

    You are partially correct here. In the Greek they do not use indefinite articles, such as “a”…it is implied if there is no definite article (“the”). Wikipedia has an excellent and, from what I can see, unbiased article on this. It goes into both the trinitarian and non-trinitarian translations of this verse, and is well substantiated in showing that the grammar itself is vague enough that it can support either translating this:
    “the Word was God”
    “the Word was a god”
    “the Word was divine” (other places I’ve heard and read that it can as properly be translated “the Word was Godlike” – similar thought to divine)
    You can find this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

    Either translation fits the context as well. I hope to get some time later to go further into the context.
    🙂

  • Joanna

    Joey, I really appreciate the amount of thought you have given to this subject, and the deep heartfelt commitment you are showing to God and His word. I’d like to comment on a couple of your points at a time, as the amount of information you have given here is more than I can think about at one time. It is so important to go to God’s Word to find the answers, and to “prove all things” and “hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), which I can see you have done for yourself, as I have done also, and we have come to different conclusions. I do not expect to convince you, just as you do not expect to convince me. I am glad that you put these out in the spirit of dialogue.

    I’m a little short on time right now, but hope to respond to some of these points this afternoon. Thanks again for posting here. 🙂

  • Jacqueline

    Joey,
    Also hit the Answers tab. There are more subjects that you can post on also. Hope to hear you on the phone Sat at 6pm CST. 732-432-8710 pin #9925

  • Joey

    exodus 24:9 Then Moses went up with Aaron,Nadab and Abihu,and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10. and they saw the God of Israel;and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire,as clear as the sky itself. 11. Yet He did not stretch out
    His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God,and they ate and drank. 12. Now the Lord said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction.”

    another example of a theophanie which I believe to be the incarnate Jesus Christ before his virgin birth in the N.T…Not a stretch for me…again I am not trying to convince or persuade anyone,I don’t believe I can; only the Holy Spirit can..I am giving another reason(there are many)why I believe Jesus Christ cannot be a created being…For Jesus Christ is the Lord….and created all things(except himself, I am to believe, well I’m sorryI cannot) and if Jesus Christ is Lord then:
    Job 38 chapter thru 40:2 gives a convincing description of the handiwork of Jesus Christ

    God bless

  • Joey

    After posting what I did I feel I need to explain what I wrote concerning not wanting any part of a created being…I am a created being and so is everything else in the world..and in the heavenly realm nobody knows what all God created, the bible describes some but not all of the creation in heaven, we know in the unseen spiritual
    realm there are angels of different rank and there are fallen angels of different rank…these created angels can obviously fall as we know a powerful one did and took one third with him…I just say I personally do not and will not give my allegiance to,worship, and commit to a created being.A created being with free will can fall into sin,If Jesus Christ is a creature than he can renig,it is possible for him as an imperfect creature,wether considered a god or divine or a mighty god regardless(that creates problems in its own right,for how can a divine being have a beginning or a mighty god have not existed for all time)..The bible describes Melchizedeck as not having beginning of days or end of days but I am to believe that Jesus Christ is a creature,no, Jesus Christ for me and many,many folks is God the Son,not the Father, wether I can explain it adequately or not,I understand it adequately, I am beginning to understand I do not have to explain it,or teach it,it was not taught to me…It is the Holy Spirits job to do that, and no I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal active force, like mindless electricity, that God sends out like Thor’s hammer or Zeus’s lightning bolt. The Holy Spirit grieves,can be lied to,and has so many attributes too numerous to mention here…and I do not know if the Holy Spirit being an active force was taught by Russell or not !!Fortunately for me I do not and will not ever believe that Christ is a created being…The bible is more than clear to me that Jesus Christ is God walking the earth…God walked the earth in the cool of the evening in the garden when they conversed..I know that the bible says that no one can see God at any time but Jesus Christ has declared him…As Jesus Christ God walked the earth, more than once,on the plains of Mamre,wrestling with Jacob possibly, theophanies are noted in the O.T… the ”Angel of the Lord” some have said is a designation name,or descriptive name, not to be taken literally that the appearence was one of an actual angel, I do believe the bible says that God walked the earth and when it mentions the’Angel of the Lord it is Jesus Christ…Certainly there is room to debate either way, I
    have no problem whatever believing that allmighty God can and did take on human flesh..Nothing is impossible with God,and my beliefs are more than adequately supported by the scriptures, If Jesus Christ is not God than for me all of this just becomes an exercise in futility,for me, I am only speaking for my self…If Jesus Christ is not God than for me I am still in my sins and it wouldn’t bother me if someone wrote back and said you definitely still are did in your sins Joe,you must be a Jehovah’s Witness to survive armageddon , I have been told that before,by a Circuit Overseer,I mean he must know right?he is a C.O. and boy does he ever get off on getting his a@$ kissed by the k.h’s he presides over, meanwhile I can’t help thinking about what Paul boasts about-Christ and him crucified…what a contrast, but I digress, where was I? yes..Fortunately, for me, whenever I read the bible, and generally I read the bible rather exclusively, I do not read other literature of any kind that explains to me what the bible is saying,just the opposite, I read the bible,understand what I am reading,than I may read a commentary or literature that expands on what I already know to be a bible truth.As a nominal Jehovah Witness(I gave my story at Ask Jacqueline)I was burned once already,taking for granted that what I was reading (WTBTS literature was the truth just because there were verse notations after every few sentences or after a point was being made)was true…Everytime I read anything now,a book,a magazine,an article,or a post that has scripture verses following;I hear alarm bells…I will not be burned twice. How do I avoid that? by following a ten before and ten after rule I made up..Every verse noted I must read 10 verses before and ten verses after…Also by reading nothing but scripture verses..the bible…The bible is like a man… if you torture them long enough you can get them to say anything..LOL.. Again I fully expect to be criticized at the very least or excoriated at the worst…thats the nature of religious(I like to say spiritual)debate…no matter it will not change the fact that I love all you guys,Peter K.,Jacqueline,Joanna,Jon,Brother Stein,Rolando and anyone I might have missed…I love you guys because it is so crystal clear obvious that you love God…Any differences will be addressed by him on that day,does not mean we should mistreat each other at all..I certainly hope that this website maintains the freedom and liberty to keep all lines of communication open and continues to be a place free of fear…
    thank you again and God bless all.

  • Joey

    I’m not sure if this is the site where I was directed to by Joanna at Ask Jacqueline
    when she said to post comments on this subject…only reason why I’m not sure is because I see only a couple of comments here and I thought a subject this important or controversial would have more comments…
    First let me say that I realize that this website is administered by the Bible Students which follow pastor Russells teachings as laid out in ”Studies of the Scripturres” and other literature he wrote. Although the ‘students’ do not believe CT Russell wrote all of his seventh volume called the “finished ministry” it was completed after his death..they do acknowledge that pastor Russell IS the Laodicean messenger and hold to many if not all of his doctrines.Doctrines which I am famiiliar with but not sure how different they are from WTBTS such as wether Christ is invisibly present since1879 or’74or 1914..and other doctrines as well..
    This website also allows for discussion by current members of the WTBTS to post anytime they would like, although that may be contrary to ”Society” rules, I don’t know;I am not a witness. I cannot for the life of me understand how an individual can be prevented from exercising their God given freedom and liberty to post or say what they want anywhere they want.Of course I am talking about respectful dialogue on a topic that is dear to their hearts such as spiritual dialogue on a spiritual website…please I am not talking about a denominational entity such as a k.h. or a church disciplining a member from exercising their freedom in say visiting a porn site or such,if found out that person should be given”what for”. anyway the point I am making is that this website gives all visitors the chance to air all opinions so far as I can see, and that it a good thing and should not be abused or taken for granted…I for one do not want to wear out my welcome and to be sure the fastest way to do that would be to make a series of dogmatic statements which have all been heard by everyone here:witnesses and pastor Russell follower Bible Students or Dawn or other WTBTS splinter groups…
    At the Rolando Rodriguez forum webcast I asked if wether the BS and he were simply
    ”witness light” due to such minimal doctrinal differences and also said something I regretted about ‘jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire’, it was an unfortunate staatement and wish I had not said it…Rolando, however answered in the affirmative and said yes that maybe ”we are witness light and yes maybe we did jump out of pan into the fire. I feel maybe he answered prematurely and would answer differently if he had more time to think about it. As brother Stein was quick to amend Rolando’s words and began explaining that BS members are not witness light and did not jump from pan to fire as it were…. fair enough…it seems to me the major issue the Dawn,theBS and other splinter groups have with the WTBTS is that THEY are the true followers of Pastor Russells teachings, and that upon Russells death a coup was successfully engineered by an attorney who did some legal work for Russell and once Russell died jumped in( while folks were mourning their leader),and took over against the wishes of Russell and his true followers..Rutherford came in like a bull in a chinashop and brushed people aside.He lied,cajoled,and effectively became the new leader by force..Throwing out four influential persons in leadership and replacing them with his cronies..a brilliant coup…The Dawn and BS were left to form their own following since they were the true followers of Russell..I write all this to say that the problem the BS and others have was with the Judge and where he took the WTBTS…had Russells instructions been followed upon his death than there would most likely not be splinter groups at all…they would all still be a part of the WTBTS.
    Wow, what a long way of saying that as I try to explain my belief in the triunity of the Godhead, it is to an audience that (wether BS or WTBTS)supports pastor Russells teaching that JesusChrist is a created being(Jehovah’s first and direct creation) and used him to create everything else in heaven and earth and the universe…EVERYTHING !!…
    I am not niave to think that I can persuade a single person of my heartfelt and adamant and to me biblically based doctrine that God took on the form of flesh and visited his creation.(1tim.3:16) please it is not necessary for anyone to write that the word God there should be translated HE or WHO even that it should say simply Jesus manifested.I have read almost every commentery and have studied the argument that non-diety proponents make concerning the word God in 1tim3:16…that in the MSS and the uncials used and that if there is not a line in the O or not then it is rendered’HE’ or’WHO’ and that there was a baffling spilling of ink there at that very spot in the MSS or an inadvertent LINE placed there by a copier. That the line with the O is there makes the rendering theos and therefore God manifest is my belief as well as many scholars,but no matter because the context is quite clear for me…The mystery of godliness.For we all know that Christ became flesh as John says in 1:14 and in other places where John wrote such as 1john1:1….To me there is no need to write that john 1:1 is a god for I will never believe that is what John meant…He wrote Word was God and I do not believe in a giant satanic conspiracy that made every biblical scholar and every bible translation ever written (except for a couple)to be wrong…definite article or no definite article greek grammer rule…the WTBTS has been effectively neutralized with that argument because following the rule consistently would render ”scores of scriptures” not make any sense at all.1john4:8
    ‘for God is love’ would and should be rendered ‘for God is a love’ if the WTBTS is consistent.I do not know if BS believe the WTBTS ‘a god’ argument as well.
    When I became a believer in Jesus Christ and dedicated my life to him,and began to live my life as a partisan of Christ. There was no one who sat me down and said ‘now Joe these are the doctrines you must believe in,this is how a Christian should believe’. I did not formulate doctrine in my head…I read the entire bible many times through and as I did all those doctrines I formerly believed(which were drummed into me) began to go away…I did an awful lot of studying, everything I can get my hands on…but mostly studied the bible and all translations,to the greek and hebrew every scripture that needed forensic study, I did look into…the bible says the Father raised Jesus gal.1:1 that Jesus raised himself john2:18-22, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus rom.8:11…the bible says the father is God,gal1:1 that Jesus is God (john20:28,isaiah9:6,7:14,8:8,8:10,Mt.1:23,titus2:13,1tim1:1,titus1:4,2pet.1:1,1john5:20,1tim3:16,1john1:2,and of course john1:1,14,16,17,18,colo2:9, there are others as well but I will stop here)that the Holy Spirit is God acts5:3,4,9..I have gone on too long but my point is that just as I know I cannot dissuade you from your belief that Jesus Christ is a created being,that there was a time when Jesus Christ had not life,
    that the author and finisher of our faith(heb12:2)was not alive at one time,and when he said I AM THE WAY,TRUTH AND LIFE,he had to know that there was a time when he was not.So I say I cannot change your minds,please afford me the same courtesy…I wrote all those diety scriptures NOT to convince anyone I am right..I simply gave them and have many more as a reason for my belief that Jesus Christ is FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN despite all the submission scriptures throughout the gospels which are adequately explained by phil.2:6,7…FOR ME.
    For me if Jesus Christ were a created being then HE would be among those ‘creatures’ in Rev.5:12,13 singing and praising and giving worshiip, instead we find him receiving worship..Again I do not presume to know it all, I do not. I do know that there are many who read this and feel obligated to post scriptures in opposition, I do ask please with all respect that I have heard all the scripures one might use to dissuade me from an erroneous belief that I may have,and let us just table that measure and I will say duly noted check..rev3:14 check(does not mean he was created,simply means HE was the ARCHE of the creation of God,the beginner of it, the ONE who did it and presides over it, although I admit to the ear sounds like he was first one created,or so I thought as a nominal j.w.)
    prov.8:22 check(take all of 7 8 9and chap. 10..when is Jesus a she,did God exist without wisdom? much more)colo.1:15 check(firstborn is a term of preeminence not the first one born or created,Esau born first,Jacob is firstborn,Ephraim and Manassah same thing) we can go on and on,round and round, in the flesh we will not get anywhere ,so I respectfully request that I be counted as one who is implacably,undeniably,inexorably cemented to my belief that Jesus Christ is Lord of me and God of me John20:28 not the Father but the Son,fully God and fully man. I want to be counted as one who believes this until the day I die and the issue will be settled soon enough.I will go to my judgement beleiving that I cannot worship a created being and that same can atone for my sins and the worlds.Lastly not to be harsh, please, if Jesus Christ is a created being then I want nothing to do with him,then all of this is a complete waste of time,for me. I am incorrigible in that respect.How could john14:6 ”LIFE” not be God…
    thank you for letting me post and God bless all…