If you are a JW going door to door, no doubt you often are drawn into discussions about the Trinity. You may feel pretty set with your debate points on the topic, but it never hurts to get some more help, especially when you occasionally face Christians who have made proving their view of the Trinity a hobby. Here is a book that will help you with more information and arguments to defend the view that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, but instead the created Son of God and the first of Jehovah’s creation, having had a pre-human existence. In the book, “The Doctrine of Christ,” you will find clear and overwhelming evidence from the Bible and history.
Sounds like one wild bible! Where did you get it?
Also, no ever thinks to look at Satans work to see hints of the Triune God as well. I think you will find some interesting facts in that alone.
Here is Satan copying God:
Isaiah 14:13-satan will go above God and sit on his throne. This tells me there is and always has been only 1 throne in heaven, not 2.
Rev. 13:3-9
The beast (antichrist) is wounded then miracously healed! Like Jesus
Luke 24:39
“See m.y hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.”
Jesus also was killed and raised in his same flesh body!
Revelation 20:10
The Devil, Beast, and False Prophet all thrown into the lake of fire (hell, gehanna) to be tormented day and night). Notice 3 persons here of Satan. Could it be a copy of Father, Son, Holy Spirit? After all, Satan tries to imitate God.
Think about it, he came to rob, kill, destroy. 3 motives
And we have overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil. 3 items
And Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave. 3 items
Numbers mean something to God.
We see the number 3 a lot. This number has a sense of divinity
The number 7 is a number of divine fullness or completion. (Seven days a week)
The number 12 has the sense of perfection. 12 apostles, 12 tribes of isreal, 144,000 people is obviously metaphorical because it is 12 x 12 x 1000. Then you see in heaven a multitude that couldn’t be numbered. So this number is not a little flock, but a number of completion. If it is literal than it can’t be JW’s but Jewish virgins! And we are before gods throne in heaven!
One more verse to think about and then I’ll back off of this thread
2 Cor 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpant decieved Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Amen beloved
Alex,
Amazon online and Barnes and Noble online have them used at a good price. Put in eight translation new testament. I like the Tyndale because that is the one I have. New it can be pricey. My JW uncle 95yrs old now, gave me a lot of good books. This one is a hardback 1974.
I agree also that the number 144,000 cannot be literal, yet complete. I might go so far in my understanding to say the Great crowd is yet another way of referring to the same group.
Most humans like surprises, and want some of us be surprised when the Lord begins his reign and all that comes with it, including a full and accurate understanding of the Bible. But isn’t it satisfying to study it now? It gives one a great sense of satisfaction discussing our Father. Take Care, Thanks and Peace.
Jacqueline
Sr. Jacqueline, I appreciate your thoughts. I hope you don’t mind if I offer an alternative thought about the Great Company. Rev 7:9 says that no man could number the Great Crowd, but we do know the number of the 144,000; so to my mind they are different classes.
The Great Crowd comes out of Great Tribulation to wash their robes white (Rev 7:14). Although this probably has an end time application, I think it also ties well with the scriptures I gave to Alex. For example, they are “saved so as by fire” (1 Cor 3:15) even though their inferior work is burned up. The foolish virgins lacked oil (Matt 25:8). These concepts seem to me to relate to the Great Crowd’s robes beings spotted. Those spots are cleaned through great personal tribulation in their life (corresponding to “saved by fire”).
Br.Peter, Thank you for asking.
No, I don’t mind an alternate thought. I appreciate your excellent explanation.
In Christ,
Jacqueline
Hi Alex – Numbers in Revelation are literal, even if they have a symbolic meaning as well. There were literally seven churches, seals, trumpets and plagues in Revelation. The 42 months are the same as the 1260 days of Daniel and also the times, times and a half (3 1/2 times). Each time is 360 days, so 3 1/2 times 360 is the 1260 days.
The 144,000 is the literal number of the bride of Christ, earths future priests, kings and judges. However, other Christians will be in heaven as well, they just will not be part of the bride of Christ.
The Anointed can be broken down into two classes after death: 1) the 144,000 and 2) those who fall short of the 144,000, but who are not going into second death.
We believe this second class is the same as the Great Crowd of Rev. 7. Notice the scriptural evidence for this second class.
The Race:
1 Cor 9:24 – “Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it.” NWT
Paul here tells us that not everyone in the race will win the prize. We believe that those who do not win the prize are part of this second class called the Great Crowd in Rev. 7.
A Full Reward:
“Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward.” (2Jo 1:8 NWT)
John implies there is a lesser reward by urging the brethren to receive a full reward. We think that lesser reward is the Great Crowd.
Building on our Foundation:
“11 ¶ For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble, 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. 14 If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; 15 if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, it will be as through fire.” (1Co 3:11-15 NWT_)
This passage describes two classes, both of whom build their foundation in Christ (vs 11). The Little Flock are the ones described as building with gold, silver and precious stones (vs 12). They will be rewarded (vs 14). The second group of the anointed build with wood, hay and stubble (vs 12). They will be saved through fire (trials, great tribulation)(vs 15)
The gold, silver and precious stones are the Christ-like character qualities developed (i.e. the fruits of the spirit). The wood, hay and stubble are the deficient character qualities of this anointed group which disqualify them from the 144,000 office of priests and kings (Rev 20:6). However, these are not going into second death. As verse 15 says, they will be “saved.” This is the Great Crowd of Rev 7. They come out of great tribulation, which for some is that tribulation in coming out of Armageddon and for others the personal tribulation they experience in their life before dying, which Jehovah permits to help them wash the spots (sins) off of their robes (Rev 7:14)
Discreet and Foolish Virgins:
“1 ¶ ”Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet.” (Mt 25:1-2 NWT)
In the New Testament, the word “virgins” applies to Anointed Christians (11 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:3,4) The foolish did not have much oil in their lamps (vs 8 ) and none extra in their receptacles. Both oil and anointing with oil are associated with the holy spirit (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; 1 John 2:27). The lesson is that some of the Anointed are not filled with the Holy Spirit. They lack in zeal and the fruits of the spirit. The solution was to have been developing the fruits of the spirit in their lives, depicted by purchasing the oil (acquiring the Christ-like character by suffering for righteousness). The door was shut by the time the foolish virgins arrived (vs. 10), demonstrating that putting off serving the Lord and developing the fruits of the spirit will result in loss of the crown (Rev 3:11), however there is no statement to indicate that the foolish virgins go into second death, but simply that they lose the opportunity to enter the marriage feast.
Called, Chosen and Faithful
“These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.”” (Re 17:14 NWT_)
The called, chosen and faithful represent three progressive conditions. Those that are called are invited to the marriage (Matt 22:3,14). Those that are chosen have accepted the invitation and were chosen to be anointed (1 Peter 1:1,2) with the holy spirit. Those that are faithful unto death will receive the crown of life (Rev 2:10), the divine nature. This final group is the 144,000.
Just as not all who are called are chosen, so also, not all who are chosen to be Anointed, receive the crown of life (the Divine Nature). This group that is not totally faithful unto death are the same as previously mentioned in 1 Cor 3:10-15 who do not receive the reward, but are saved by fire. They are the Great Crowd of Rev 7 who serve before the throne and were pictured by the Levites who served in the tabernacle. They are mentioned in Psa 45:14 as the virgins, the brides companions in the Kings palace. These same bride’s companions are the Great Crowd of Rev 19:6 who in verse 7 are at the marriage supper (in heaven) rejoicing.
Thanks Jacqueline, well said.
Sorry if my messages turned from interesting and encouraging, to just argument.
I can take a hint
If you don’t mind me waiting until the weekend to write on ‘Ask Jaqueline’, I would love to share on this website.
I like what you said about encouragement and edification, and I believe that your timing was perfect
its always important to bring the tempo of any (christ centered) discussion back to a loving community.
Once again, sorry if I went to far.
I am really looking forward to being apart of this group on here, and hope that we will continue to challenge eachother while remaining in Love.
Bob did have questions about the Holy Spirit, and I have a feeling Peter K will have a few more comments like he said. If its alright, I would like to just post 1 more thing on the attributes and functions of the holy spirit, and then I’ll call it good
Good day to ya’ll
Alex Hi,
You do have to excuse me I sometimes look deeper into a person that the surface. There is so much unsaid in your comments. What do I mean?
A person that is so driven and defends himself so WELL on scripture has something else to say, generally.
I want to know how you got there! I know others that are just reading the post and answers. They ask who is he??? What else can he impart. We want to hear your story. Then back at the trinity or whatever. We ( a lot of former JWS and other religious persons) are on telephone hook-up, hundreds of us are talking and going to the different websites. They want to know your story. I for one see something deeper to be said. Where did you learn this deep scriptural knowledge? Are you a priest, minister, etc?
We want to have you post, Please continue, but people are focusing on who you are and where is your journey heading in Christ.
This is what 2 of us want to know your take on. What is happening with Paul.
2Cor.12: 1-6 Is this a vision in your opinion?
In Christ and Peace my brother,
Jacqueline