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Why Does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering

Evil is anything bad or morally wrong which causes unhappiness, injury, suffering, pain, ruin, or death. Perhaps there is nothing more challenging and confusing to man’s faith in a loving and just God than the dominance of evil in our world. All of man’s sorrows trace back to one cause—sin. Why did not God prevent man’s fall into sin? Adam and Eve were created perfect. Why did God allow Satan, in the form of a serpent, to tempt them to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree?  Read more here:  Listen to the famous International Bible Student Scholar and Lecturer, Carl Hagensick, provide the real answer to this perplexing quesiton.  Just click below to hear the answer for yourself.

Carl Hagensick explains clearly Why God Permits Evil

71 comments to Why Does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering

  • Jerome

    I have to take my hat off to you both Peter and Jacqueline. Because you never give up on people. It is quite admirable and very moving. I may not agree with a lot of what you say, but that is beside the point. I mean you both care and that is rare. Extremely rare! And so I thank you both for your hard work in trying to help me. You have my sincere respect for it.

    ps
    Also Sharon and Dupin for their encouragement. Thanks.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Jerome – We wish you well and always feel welcome here. Thank you for those very kind words. You have inspired me to request that someday the following be inscribed on my tombstone: “He could never convince anyone, yet still, he never gave up.”

      • Jacqueline

        Good one Br. Peter, gave us a nice laugh. Jerome you are what we are all about. Christ would never give up. Thank you for your kind words.
        And guess what you are one of his, because you are trying to seek him. We would never had known you were there until you spoke. This site gets almost 4,000 visitors each month from as many as 127 countries and they view over 10,000 pages but they never say a word. Our dear brother , sincerely Jacqueline.

      • Sharon/Tulsigirl

        Here Lies Brother Peter
        He could never convince anyone,
        yet still,
        He never gave up.
        Thank GOD!

  • Jerome

    I wish it was that simple Jacqueline…I only wish.

    Goodnight and thanks.

  • Ken

    Remember Frederick, all those slaves will be resurrected to a world where such things won’t exist…..all because of JESUS dying for ALL mankind!

    • Frederick Douglass

      Please tell me Ken, if Jesus Christ did not die for “all of mankind”, would that then mean that the black slaves would never get any recognition or justice or any “resurrection” from God simply because Jesus never died? What kind of Justice is that? The truth is they should be remembered and resurrected whether Jesus died or not. Jesus death should have no bearing on whether a brutalised black child or (white child) gets justice.
      So your well-meaning words are but cold comfort to me.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Frederick – Perhaps you might want to share your personal story under testimonies. Or perhaps that story is too personal and painful for you to share with us. Either way, you are speaking like someone who suffered as a black child and now you want to bring the injustice to our attention. Your intentions are good. Your emotions strong. Wanting to defend black and white children from terrible injustice is a very good thing. But you are coming across as if lashing out at others and in a very angry manner. I do not think that it is your intention to lash out, but your emotions and personal experience in the matter are so very strong. It seems to me that you have set up a defensive wall that only love and patience can penetrate. But if we feel like you are lashing out at us, it makes it difficult to be supportive and sympathetic.

        How can we help you Frederick? You can find more encouragement and help from Jesus than you realize. Jesus has a permanent solution that will remove all evil forever. However, in Jehovah’s wisdom, he knew that the only way mankind would be able to reject evil for eternity, was to suffer through it for our short lifetimes. Only be experiencing the terrible results of evil, could we all reject it forever and embrace the coming peaceable kingdom of love, peace and joy. In the meantime, Jesus has provided mercy, help and support for those who seek it from him. He is providing some of that help from your friends here on this website, if you will accept our help and support. If you use your pain as a productive tool to help, support and encourage others, as Jesus teaches, this will do more to heal your pain than anything else.

        We are your friends, but I don’t want to see you hurting Bob, Sharon, Ken, etc. Don’t lash out at them. Open your heart. Pray for help, strength and encouragement from Jesus. Perhaps Jesus is providing us to help you.

        I am reminded of a fictional story of a man who wouldn’t leave his home. The police were evacuating because the imminent flood would otherwise drown everyone remaining in their homes. The man prayed for God to rescue him. When the police came, he said God would save him. He kept praying. The flood came. Men in rowboats came to rescue him. He refused to go with them saying, God would save him. He continued to pray for help. The flood got so bad he had to get on the roof of his house to avoid drowning. A helicopter came to rescue him. He would not go, saying God would save him. The man did drown and when he got to heaven, he asked God, why didn’t you answer my prayers and save me. God replied, I answered your prayers three times. I sent the police, then the rowboat, then the helicopter, but you refused my help.

        Frederick, don’t refuse God’s help. He has provided friends for you. Don’t be angry with us. You won’t always hear what you want to hear from us, but we do mean well and if anyone of us saw that black child being hurt, we would jump to his or her defense to protect them. Sorry were weren’t there for you then, but we are here for you now.

        • Jerome

          To Peter K. (admin)

          You said that, “However, in Jehovah’s wisdom, he knew that the only way mankind would be able to reject evil for eternity, was to suffer through it for our short lifetimes.”

          Would you be kind enough to show me the scriptures that actually prove that statement (doctrinal viewpoint) to be true.

          Thank you
          Jerome

          • Jacqueline

            Jerome hello. Under electronic books to the far right you will see studies in the scriptures. To understand I think you need to see the big picture.
            Please read volume one, it give you the rationale. I always felt Jehovah had foreknowledge of all things and instead as we were told he just choes not to use it. That explanation never set with me. From the founding of the world does not mean when Abel was born or concieved as we were taught. It meant from the founding of the world as the bible says he prepared out ransom even before sin. That is probably the best way for you to look up the scriptures and meditate and pray. It finally made sense to me. Take Care, sincerely Jacqueline

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Jerome – The ultimate question mankind has been asking for over 6,000 years is “Why does God permit evil and human suffering?” John 3 (NASV) says, “16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”

            So if God really love the world so much and wants to save it, why doesn’t he do something about it now? The suffering has gone on too long. We ask, Oh God, why won’t you end the suffering now?

            Jerome – It is only when you finish constructing a puzzle, that you can see the completed picture. As Jacqueline suggested, reading Volume One of Studies and the Scriptures will harmonize the whole plan of the Bible and help it make sense.

            Here are some scriptures that may help.

            Eph 1:9,10 – “He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the PURPOSE which He has cherished in His own mind of RESTORING THE WHOLE CREATION to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.” – Weymouth

            The scriptures which illustrate God’s plan to rescue the unbelieving world of mankind in his kingdom are found in the Bible, page after page, from Genesis to Revelation. As we are told in Acts 3:21, “… the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” NKJV

            Rom 8 (NKJV) “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God” NKJV

            Rev 22:17 (NKJV) “And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” This is after the “Bride” or “Saints” are in heaven. As earth’s future kings and priests the “Bride of Christ” is inviting mankind into the earthly kingdom arrangement.

            Jobs suffering seems hard to understand or explain. The book of Job is sometimes viewed to be a picture of the suffering of all humanity. Some view it as a suffering of the Jewish people. Righteous as Job was, he began to rationalize and justify himself, saying that God was punishing him without a cause (Job 33:8-11). After Jehovah speaks to Job, Job responds to Jehovah.

            Job 42 (NASV) “3… I have declared that which I did not understand… 4… I will ask You, and You instruct me. 5 I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You; 6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.”

            Job finally said, “my eye sees You.” Job finally understood and accepted what God had permitted in his life. In the end Job was restored to life, health, family, more than what he had before.” The same will be true of Israel and of all the world of mankind. The earth will be restored to a perfect paradise.

            Rev 21:4 (NASV), “and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

            You can read more about Why God Permits evil here: http://www.dawnbible.com/booklets/permits.htm

        • Jerome

          Thanks for responding Peter. Well, I have read quite a lot of your material regarding the reason why God allows suffering and it does sound more reasonable than most of the other religions, but, the real problem I have with it, which is the same problem I have with the Jehovah witnesses is that most of your understanding of the bible is really just based around one man’s understanding and interpretation of it. Therefore, my faith in why God permits evil would not be dependant on what the bible or God say , but rather it would be dependant on what Charles Taze Russell says.

          So to clarify Peter, what I am really trying to say is that I will end up putting my faith in a “man” and in his interpretation and understanding of the bible and not in God. And the REASON my faith won’t be in God’s explanation of why he permits suffering is simply because he has not given an explanation for it. It is men who are giving the reasons why God permits suffering and not God himself.

          • Sharon/Tulsigirl

            My dear Jerome, I appreciate what you have to say. However, if you read all of the info just in the discussion there are lots of different people commenting. Many are using scripture, NOT Brother Russel’s comments. Brother Russell and many ones from other religions have taken more time then a lot of us have or want to take to really go thru all the Bible, verse by verse. We are welcome to use any of those other interpretations. For us, it is just that Pastor Russell and LOTS of other Bible Students who have published books on understanding scripture. Brother Russell is a “map” to help us get to our destination – GOD’s resurrection of good and evil for life either in the New Heavens or the New World. You aught to go to a Bible Study with Bible Students. It can be pretty lively on some discussions. A lot of us have our own ideas of what the scriptures are trying to tell us. We do a lot “agreeing to disagree.” LOL Brother Russell was so prolific in his sermons and writings. It was his whole life. Most of us just don’t have the time or insight he seems to have had. But he DOES NOT dictate what we believe. We as a group of Bible Students just happen to agree on most of the doctrines he explained.

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Jerome. Thanks for taking the time to read the material and sharing your response. We are in agreement that our understanding should come from the Bible and not man’s writings. So please, let’s put aside man and let’s look at the Bible. I agree with you that there is no a direct scripture that comes out and clearly explains why God permits evil and human suffering. With Job, the answer was that God is great beyond Job’s comprehension and that Job must just have faith that God will work out what is best for all. And that story has a happy ending.

            1 Pet 1 (NASV) says, “10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.”

            What we do know is that by the time of the Apostles, God’s plan had been revealed to his followers. Though this plan has since been lost in the darkness and confusion of the Dark Ages, we are able to recover that plan directly from the scriptures.

            Gal 3:8 (NASV), “8 The Scripture… preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

            Acts 3:25 (NKJV) “ … the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’”

            Gal 3:29 (NKJV) “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

            The Gospel is that Jesus Christ and His body members are jointly the heavenly seed who are to bless all the families of the earth.

            So Jerome, in our quest to answer the question, “Why does God permit evil,” can we at least agree that God has a happy plan to fix everything? If we can agree on this, we can look at some more scriptures to find the answer to our question.

          • Jerome

            Sharon you said that “Brother Russell is a map to help us get to our destination”.
            I don’t know about you Sharon but I find that very worrying, because I always thought the bible was the “map” that helps us get to our destination? I mean just because Mr Russell had so much to say and write about the bible, does’nt make him right.

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Jerome – Eph 4 (NASV) says, “11 He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.” It is up to you who you choose to look to as a helpful Pastor. I can only say from personal experience, that I have been greatly aided in understanding the Bible with the help of Brother Russell. His knowledge and wisdom is remarkable and far beyond my own. If you find a better help elsewhere, please share it with us.

      • Dupin

        My dear Frederick:

        I’m part American Indian. My people were also made into slaves during certain eras…and slaughtered without regard to age or sex. I was born in the Southern US during segregation and often treated the same as blacks in certain venues. However, my dad was wise and raised me not to look to the past the way it appears you do. That path, the one taught in schools and colleges to day leads to nothing but bitterness and a warped sense of victim hood. It is the reason so many tribes still wallow in self-pity and expect admissions or revenge which will never come in this world. In that direction lies blindness to any hope, much less the real hope God has laid before us.

        Does it really matter that all will comes back on a more or less even keel? That all will have the same chance at eternal life? Are you so bitter that you cannot see the justice embodied in Jesus’ statement to the people as recorded for us in John 5:24-30? He tells us that those who did evil will come back to a heavier judgement because t5hey will have more to overcome than those black babies you so ardently champion. That is where true justice based on love comes in Frederick. Humanities victims will have an advantage in the judgement and make their way through the Door to eternal life than those who mistreated them. And many of the victimizers, if not most, will not make it.

        That is plenty enough for me. To see the trodden down of the earth, irregardless of race, enjoy the wonders of eternal life while most of their abusers miss out in the end. Perfect justice require all to be judged on an equal basis, all to have the same chance. I’m willing to see those who will feel genuine sorrow for what they did and make the right changes get life. But I’ll rejoice even more at the innocent walking in that door ahead of them.

        Look to the future instead of the past. There is nothing you or I can do about what has gone before. all we can do anything about is how we handle things NOW.

        • Jerome

          I find that when I sincerely try to understand the bible by meditating and praying, I just end up feeling mentally tortured. It just does not work for me. The book drives me insane. The happy ending you speak of which the bible supposedly provides. Well that is fine for people who are at relative ease in this world and can comfortably wait for that ending. But for those who are in extreme need and in extreme desperation who need to be helped right now, well that happy ending is a very long way off for them. And every moment is an unbearably painful ordeal to bear for such ones who are hanging on to nothing and then there are those who just can’t take the pain any more and feel that killing themselves is the only way out. This for me is just so wrong. So wrong, I cannot accept it.

          • Sharon/Tulsigirl

            My dear Jerome, I DO feel your pain. I’ve been in the depths of despair and longed for death. As you, I felt suicide was/is murder. Murder of self, but still murder. I don’t want to do that terrible wrong. When in those deep, dark places surrounded by horrible tragedies and situations, it has been hard for me to think. I, too, have been “mentally tortured.” I’ve likened it to being at the bottom of the deepest, darkest pit with no light to see above. I’d think I’d never pull through. Those were notL times for me to try and read the Bible – except for – the Psalms. I could read them through uncontrollable sobbing and tears, beautiful words of comfort claming my heart. I’d actually begin to understand that GOD really does care. Even though I couldn’t “feel” Him or “see” Him, I began to know He is concerned for my welfare. Just reading that part of the Bible usually helped/helps me come back to a more peaceful and calm place in my heart and mind. It is hard to meditate and pray when you are in such turmoil. You don’t have to think about it when you read the psalms. Don’t even think about the words you are reading. They will end up soothing you like a nice cool salve massaged on your heart and your tormented brain. When you find a peaceful place in your heart, mind and body, if you want to, go back and, THEN, meditate and pray on deeper passages in the Bible.

          • Jacqueline

            Hi Jerome today has been a busy day for me I have been seeing another doctor’s referred patients. One of them is a Cancer Patient. She is full of zest for life and feels she is going to beat it. She stopped chemo and radiation to go totally holistic. She believes and is praying to God. She is not sad but says she will live for many more years, doing everything to meet that goal. She says she believes God will help her.
            Jerome, she doesn’t know that when you are referred to me there is no hope!!!! My job is to talk to her and make sure she has things in order and basically console and help her with options and spirituality.
            What’s wrong Jerome? Is your situation as hopeless as hers? Or can we help you to endure? We are your friends on so many levels. Are you terminal in some way? If so let us know maybe we can do something to help. Maybe someone here knows of something. Hope is a powerful thing. The patients mind has taken over matter. Positive thinking will go farther than negative thinking. I didn’t print one young sisters comments, when her mother was dying on this site. It was so painful to hear her but maybe I should do so it just might help others to have hope. She kept hope alive until the last minute as her mom died. So is your situation helpable Jerome? We are going to pray anyway, we will just throw your burden on Jehovah our God for only he and Jesus knows what you need now. Sincerely Jacqueline Here is a little poem sent to me.
            TWO FROGS
            TWO frogs fell into a deep cream bowl.
            One was an optimistic soul.
            The other took the gloomy view:
            “We’ll drown,” he cried, without more ado;
            So, with a last despairing cry He flung up his legs and said “Good-by.”
            Said the other frog with a plucky grin,
            “I can’t get out, but I won’t give in;
            I’ll just swim around till my strength is spent,
            Then I can die with more content.”
            Bravely he swam till it would seem
            His struggles began to churn the cream.
            At last on top of the butter he stopped
            And out of the bowl he gladly hopped.
            What of the moral? ’Tis easily found—
            When you can’t get out keep swimming around

          • Peter K. (admin)

            The happy ending that Job experienced pictures the happy ending the world will experience on the future Paradise Earth. It is not a happy ending that the world can experience today. Rev 21:4 (NASV) “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Jerome – Don’t give up hope. Be patient and persistant in looking for your answers. Luke 11 (NASV) says, “9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11 “Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 “Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

            Don’t give up seeking help and answers. John 8 (NASV) says, “31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” The Truth of God’s plans and purposes and his love for you will set you free from the anony and pain of sorrow and sadness. Be patient. This takes time work. It is not a quick fix.

            Jehovah will help you through his son Jesus and through Jesus body members here on earth. We all do and we all get encouragement from each other. Eph 4 (NASV) says, “16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.”

            The whole body of Christ builds itself up together in love. 1 John 4 (NASV) “7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love”

            John 17 (NASV) says ” 13 “But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

            The Truth santifies us (makes us holy). The whole body of Christ is built on love. This was not just for the Apostles, for Jeusus continues on and says, “20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

            If you are patient and persistent and continue to pray to Jehovah for help, he will provide it through his son and through his body members here on earth.

  • Bob

    For my part, I just feel sorry for you.

    • Sharon/Tulsigirl

      Personally, this will be my last comment. I don’t think Frederick is interested in hearing what any of us have to say. He is just doing his best to cause dissension! I’m outta here!

      • Frederick Douglass

        Sharon/Tulsigirl

        Why don’t you just be totally honest with me and say that you hate my guts, instead of hypocritically judging and condemning my character and falsely praying for me.

        • Jacqueline

          Frederick, I had clients today and they read all of the comments. I must say things livened up quite a bit. It was all good tho. Sometimes I get comfortable with knowing about the hope and along comes someone to bring me back to reality of what others are feeling and thinking and wondering.
          Remember you and anyone else is always welcome here. Take Care my FRIEND. Jacqueline.

          • Frederick Douglass

            I sincerely thank you for your kind words Jacqueline….I needed them.

            • Jacqueline

              You are welcome Frederick, I go to 4th Sunday meeting today. Its like an all day convention in JW. Except we have lots of breaks for fellowship. Also the children have their own little classes. So I will see comments but may not be able to answer. Probably Br. Peter, Ken Bob and others will answer. At any rate you enjoy your day. And if you ever want to talk about the deeper problems that have affected you on a personal level we are here to listen and not judge. Talk to you later today. In Jesus Dear Name Jacqueline
              PS: We needed your shot in the foot also, thank you.

          • Frederick Douglass

            Goodbye Jacqueline.

            • Jacqueline

              Frederick Douglass, Hello and how are you? I hope you will look at some of the info on this site and see if it makes sense. I have greatly appreciated dialogue that you have provided in our discussions. We can’t always agree on issues and that is why I like being with the Bible Students, you get to think and throw it out there. Sometimes it awakens our conciousness. Religious people like myself can get as smug as a bug in a rug and not be in tune with the real world. That is why Jesus said don”t take them out of the world. When men in charge so to speak live in large facilities they lose touch with the real people that are not shielded from the world. They are millionaires. The Bible Students have everyday lives, they don’t live at a Bethel. They have experiences like you and me. Ken is going thru a lot now in addition to the things you have been mentioning. That never goes away. Please feel free to comment at any time. Everyone has something to say. All of us are angry when we exit the watchtower and I have had to send a few to sixscreens to get it out of them first.LOL. You see sixscreens has a role also. It is all by God’s permission. In the new world we will not go against Jesus as we know from our sufferings that man and satan’s rule is too horrible. It is a trial that has sobered me up. Take Care my Friend.

        • Sharon/Tulsigirl

          I don’t hate anyone, I just think you have deeper problems then I can help you with. If I sounded accusatory, I’m sorry. But I have perceived your comments more as argumentative and disruptive than as a discussion. If I am mistaken about you, I’m sorry and the fault is with me. But that is just my opinion, the same as you have your opinion of me. I’m sorry if I’ve offended or accused you of anything incorrectly – my bad. Jacqueline is an awesome woman and a personal friend. She has a lot more insight into people than I. I admire her greatly. She is one you can truly count on.

    • Jerome

      I have also read the psalms Sharon, but I have not experienced what you have. I actually end up feeling more depressed because I find that I have nothing in common with King David. In fact I don’t relate to any of the people in the bible. There life and there world are so alien to me. I get no comfort at all. There world feels so surreal compared to the world I live and suffer in. Just does not help me.

  • Bob

    Maybe you can give me an example from what I wrote for your perception that I come across as “evil” or as “a cold heartless bigoted fanatic”? You also described Ken’s comments as “a cowardly attempt”. These are pretty strong and hateful words. I’ve read my posts and don’t see anywhere that I said “there suffering as inferior to his own simply because they never volunteered to suffer like he did.” “I mean you are speaking for Jesus as if you were his own personally appointed lawyer…” I don’t understand this line of reasoning. The original question was, “And yet jesus is praised so highly and respected so much, for what?” So my answer was that Jesus gave up a heavenly existence to suffer and die for us and God allowed this to happen. Neither one had to do this; they could have wiped the slate clean and started over again. By allowing His only begotten Son to suffer as he did, God showed that His laws applied equally to himself as well as the whole human race. Heb 5:8 states that by his suffering Jesus learned obedience to do the will of his Father. Then Frederick wrote that Jesus suffered as he did for the reward that was offered to him. I respect that point of view, but as I pointed out, Jesus did not know ahead of time he would receive that reward and offered scriptures for my reasoning. How have I belittled the suffering of others by doing this? Jesus was a perfect man and only a perfect man could have atoned for Adam’s sin. He stated, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” John 15:13. In my opinion, I have only tried to answer your questions and statements. I have tried not to be disrespectful to anyone or anyone’s point of view. I’m sorry you both feel the way you do towards me, but I don’t see the basis for it.

    • Frederick Douglass

      You will never understand Bob, but to put it simply, your words are the words of a man who lives in a book. They are not the words of a man who has suffered. For a man who has suffered does not speak the way you do. He cannot speak that way. It is impossible for him to. And that is why I find you so offensive and still do.

      • Sharon/Tulsigirl

        To imply none of us have suffered, Frederick, is unkind and unreasonable. We’ve all suffered in one way or another. You have no idea the tortures any of us have been through. I’ve decided that you are just simply a deeply angry person and it’s something you personally must address. None of us can go through your personal agony. Yes, we are grateful for Jesus Christ being our Redeemer – your Redeemer – The Redeemer of every single person who has, is or will live on this earth. We believe the words of the Scriptures and history validates a lot of the secular information found therein. I’m sorry that you feel so much pain. No pain is from GOD, as I pointed out in an earlier posting. It is the god of this world – Satan. GOD will step in SOON. But there are ones in this world who enjoy the evil he encourages. GOD will be giving these ones opportunity to choose evil or goodness in his promised future New Heavens and New Earth.(2Peter 3:13)
        I’m praying that you can resolve the hurt and anger you are dealing with. I don’t think it has anything to do with any of the things you’ve posted. There is something deeper going on with you.

  • Bob

    Frederick Douglass, there is no lack of compassion by saying that none of the people who have suffered and are even now suffering atrocities at the hands of men, don’t do it voluntarily. I am simply stating the fact that Jesus volunteered to do God’s will and suffer for us. Don’t look for arguments where there are none. Jesus did not know at the time what reward he was to receive. In John 17:5 he asks to go back to the same position he had before, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” God chose to give him all power on heaven and earth because of his obedience. You keep mentioning the “white slave masters”, but who sold the slave masters the slaves in the first place? I think Jacqueline hit the nail on the head with her post.

    • Frederick Douglass

      Lets put it this way bob, Jesus “VOLUNTARY” suffering is nothing! Yes! Absolutely nothing compared to the “INVOLUNTARY” suffering of one single black slave child. And that is a FACT! A fact that only a compassionate humane person can understand, but a cold heartless bigoted fanatic like you could never and will never understand.
      So I rest my case.

      • Peter K. (admin)

        Frederick – Are you saying that black slave children have suffered more than any other people in history from the time of Adam and Eve to the present time? I am very sorry for the terrible suffering of black slave children. I can feel your emotion and I can imagine that you have been very deeply and personally injured in your life. I am very sorry for the suffering that you have personally experienced. You can find comfort and support from Jesus as you earnestly seek that help from him. Have you personally accepted Jesus as your savior?

        Hebrews 4:14-16 says, “14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin. 16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.” NLT

        Regarding Jesus suffering, have you ever directly read from the Bible how he was tortured? There is a helpful description of the terrible suffering he endured at this link.

        • Frederick Douglass

          ” Are you saying that black slave children have suffered more than any other people in history from the time of Adam and Eve to the present time?”

          No Peter, I have said no such thing. I have simply and plainly said that the black slaves have suffered more than Jesus Christ has suffered. That’s my point. And I believe it is a very valid one and a very honest one too.
          And for the record to show that I am not partial to the black people, I would also include my brothers & sisters of other colours and races because many of them have also suffered greater evil and injustice than Jesus Christ has.

    • Jerome

      To bob

      Your “facts” about Jesus are not facts at all, but are merely your own opinion on things. We do not know how Jesus feels on this subject of suffering whether he even considers his suffering as superior simply because he “volunteered” as you so dogmatically put it. I mean you are speaking for Jesus as if you were his own personally appointed lawyer…well you are not. All I know is that Jesus was a humble and just man, so going by that I do not believe he would compare the suffering of black slaves to himself and judge there suffering as inferior to his own simply because they never volunteered to suffer like he did. I mean that kind of reasoning in itself is just pure evil. So maybe Frederick is right for accusing you of being a cold heartless individual. That’s just my opinion.

      • Jacqueline

        Jerome on this forum we don’t attack persons individually. I don’t think you really know Bob otherwise you would not say that. Please keep it civil. EVERYONE has a right to their opinion. They should not have ro fear a verbal attack or assault on their person. You owe Bob an apology. You do also Frederick Douglas. I am not saying you have to. I am just saying you owe it. He is your brother also, not your enemy. Sometimes words without seeing the person come across wrong. I am very expressive and I might add so are you (LOL). But that is your right. Experiences we have had have made us what we are. Imformation provided here seeks to guide you to the Bible and Christ as our only hope. Bob, Br. Peter, Sharon, Ken and others extend our hand in fellowship.
        And for the love of god, come over to the Ask Jacqueline page and tell me what is wrong? Something is happenning now to solicite so much emotion. You are lashing out, it is true, but Jesus has pointed you here. It is not about slavery at all it is about YOU. See you on Ask Jacqueline, okay?
        Look I have probably read the same books you are reading. I am a readaholic, There I admitted it. I read all of the Mandingo series and those books are as big as some bibles. Put the books down for a minute please and breath in and get on your knees as Jesus said in Matt 6:9. Ask Jehovah to send you help and comfort. We just might be it. But stop being so mean. LOL

        • Frederick Douglass

          “Sometimes words without seeing the person come across wrong.”
          True Jacqueline, but not in this situation. I am sorry but you are wrong.
          Through this controversial topic The truth of certain individuals is being uncovered and I am sorry to say Jacqueline that you obviously cannot deal with that truth. Its your right to bury your head in the sand if you wish, but I won’t. It is my right to bring out the truth and also the right of others to do the same to me. If you don’t like the truth that I bring then it is your right to stop me from commenting any further on this forum. You do as you please.

          Respectfully
          Frederic

          • Jacqueline

            Frederic, I reveal a lot about myself when I speak. It is an oportunity to get myself corrected. We all hold certain views and prejudices. By rubbing on oneanother we can clear up some of the rough edges and misconceptions. I am not here to judge. No, we will not stop you commenting, we just ask you not to attack individuals. If you honestly feel there is a problem. Don’t always go thru the front door, that’s all I am saying. Season it with salt. I am tough as shoe leather, it comes with age. I can dish it out and I can take it. Flaws in my, yours and everyone else’s comes out when you write or open your mouth. Some of our views need enlightment, but grab some salt and peppper. You sound young, sort of like my 41,38 and 36 yr olds. I think you are way younger tho. Give me a hint. Your speech however is very seasoned. You go on and comment, we welcome you. But let’s get on one of the other subjects and let us know how you feel. Bury my head in the sand, no, I have run the race you are running. I just know that Jesus is the answer not men.

  • Frederick Douglass

    Sorry, thank you Jacqueline.

  • Frederick Douglass

    What has happened to my comment in response to Bob?

  • Frederick Douglass

    You said “I wonder how many people would have endured torture and crucifixion if they had the power to avoid it.”

    I believe Bob that most people on this planet if not everyone, would willingly and gladly endure torture and crucifixion for the short time that Jesus did, if it would put an end to all the misery in the world. Especially, yes, especially if they knew they were going to be rewarded with a resurrection to heaven, where they would be transformed into a supernatural, super intelligent, super powerful, super invincible, immortal, angelic spirit being, to live the rest of there infinite lives in the most unimaginable inconceivable and unfathomable extravagant comfort and luxury as a noble and majestic king to be supremely glorified, worshipped and honoured by millions of humans and angels alike, forever. Why even the most evil man on earth today would do it. Just so that he could receive that uniquely fantastic surreal and exclusive reward that Jesus did. So you are totally wrong.

    You also said “You are correct in all the atrocities that the slaves in America had to endure, but none did it voluntarily.”

    BTW, I love the compassion in those words, “none did it voluntarily”!

    Bobby if Jesus christ never had his superhuman powers or his supremely advantageous prehuman existence or powerful angels to come to his rescue when he could not take it anymore. But rather he was reduced to one of those poor, helpless, powerless black slaves who witnessed the savage rape of his wife and saw his children brutalised by white slave masters. And this went on for years with no intervention from his all powerful father…GOD!! No but this time he would live with no hope of anything, no justice, no nothing! I wonder if he could endure that, even if it was not “voluntary” as if that matters! I tell you he would beg to be nailed to the cross forever, rather than endure one moment of the pain those black slaves had to endure.

  • Bob

    Frederick Douglass, The reason why Jesus is “praised so highly”, is because he volunteered to suffer for our behalf. He didn’t need to do it; he left a spiritual, heavenly existence, became flesh and suffered for us. He did good to everyone, healed the sick the lame and resurrected the dead. For that he was tortured and crucified. As he told Peter in Mat 26:53, “Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” I wonder how many people would have endured torture and crucifixion if they had the power to avoid it. You are correct in all the atrocities that the slaves in America had to endure, but none did it voluntarily. Remember also, that victims of the Spanish inquisitions also endured atrocities as well as the Salem witch trials and many others. History is full of man’s inhumanity to man. I point out the words of the Christ in Mat 5:43-48 and wish you peace.

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