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Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?

Most Christians believe the New Covenant promised to Israel was transferred to spiritual Israel, the Church.  Yet if God made an unconditional promise to natural Israel, to break it would make him a liar.  It is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18).  Without realizing it, many well meaning Christians have made God out to be a liar.

Jer 31:31-34 says, “31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:  32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:  33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.   34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.  (KJV)

This text can only apply to natural Israel, not the Christian church.

  • Vrs. 31:  Covenant made with house of Israel and house of Judah.
  • Vrs. 32:  Won’t be like covenant they broke after coming out of Egypt [Not true of Christian church.  The Christian church never came out of Egypt].
  • Context verifies natural Israel is being spoken of…

Jer 31:27-28:  27   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.  28  And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.   (KJV)

The Christian church was never plucked up and thrown down and destroyed by the Lord.  These words can only apply to natural Israel.

Jer 31:35-37:   35  This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD Almighty is his name:   36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” 37  This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.  (NIV)

Israel will never cease to be a nation as long as the sun, moon and stars shine.  God will never reject Israel since on Paradise Earth, the sun, moon and stars will continue to shine.

99 comments to Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?

  • traveler

    Hi Peter, the promises and covenants were all related to only the “True Jews”. To understand this you first must realize that everything has to do with frame of mind. Abraham’s frame of mind was generated from being under the influence of Yahweh and was the reason for his actions and the reason Yahweh made the promises to him. Abraham’s offspring were the sons of Israel. The sons of Israel were made up of only those under the influence of Yahweh as Abraham was, or in other words part of Yahweh’s kingdom (range of influence). This applies to the chosen people in its entirety. The “nation of Israel” was as an organization, a provision to build up these “true Jews”, the house of God. The Nation failed and rejected Jesus, becoming the “old builders”. Jesus as the head of the new organization to come (the good news) led the body of true Jews from the “nation of Israel” to form a new nation that would produce its fruits. I’ve found that most religious pursuits think, like you, that God would not really reject the “nation of Israel”, but think about it you already know this. The offspring of Abraham, the son’s of Israel are not interchangeable with the “nation of Israel”. While some of the prophesies were fulfilled towards the sons of Israel, these involved the old organizational provision, the “nation of Israel”, for only a short time and still only happened because of those among it that were of the kingdom of God. Those among the nation were the “chosen people”, the “true Jews” (frame of mind). We, those in pursuit, drawing closer to Yahweh, are in the process of becoming of one mind or one with Yahweh.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      traveler – Thanks for your response. However as Admin, I must insist that if you want to debate, you must consider and respond to arguments from those respectfully debating you. You did a good job of explaining your opinion. However, you are ignoring the answers refuting your opinion. For example, you ignored Amos 9.

      Amos 9:14-15 (NKJV) “14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the LORD your God.”

      Amos says, “no longer shall they be pulled up From the land.” How can this apply to the New Creation or True Jews. What land were we plucked up out of previously? How are we brought back to this land never again to be plucked out of it?

      Also, let’s look at Jeremiah 31.

      Jeremiah 31 (NKJV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah–
      32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. ►

      This passage provides three facts that show it cannot apply to the Church.

      1) It refers back to the Old Law Covenant that God had made with Israel when he led them out of Egypt. But God never made an old covenant with the New Creation (True Jews / Spiritual Israelites) when he led them out of the world.
      2) It also states that they broke the Covenant. The New Creation did NOT break any previous covenant with God.
      3) It speaks of God as having been a husband to Israel while they were under the Old Covenant. God was never previously a husband to the New Creation under some old covenant.

      In spite of these clear conflicts, most Christians argue that the Church is under the New Covenant. A popular reason is that Jer 31:33 says God will write his law in their heart, they will all know him and he will forgive their sins. It’s argued that this is all true of the New Creation and therefore we must all be under the New Covenant.

      However, being under the New Covenant is not the only way to have God’s laws written in one’s heart.

      To apply Jeremiah 31 to the New Creationis like applying Isaiah 35:5-10 to the New Creation. It says that the deaf will hear and the blind will see. Although this is spiritually true of the New Creation in the Gospel Age, Isaiah 35 is not talking about the Church, but instead about the world of mankind walking up the Highway of Holiness (vs 8) in the future earthly kingdom.

      It has always been true that people need to have God’s laws written on their hearts. Notice how Proverbs 7:2-3 says, ” Keep my commandments and live, And my teaching as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.”

      Were the Jews who followed this admonition to write God’s commandments on their heart under the New Covenant? Of course not.

      Consequently, just because Jeremiah 31 says that God will “write his law in their heart,” this does not prove that the New Creation is under the New Covenant any more than was Natural Israel was during the Jewish Age. In the case of the New Creation, there is no taking away of the stoniness of heart, but there is a new nature, a new heart, in flesh only in the sense that “we have this treasure in earthen vessels.” 2 Cor 4:7.

      So we believe that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 does not apply to the Church. ►

  • traveler

    Here’s a thought. Be patient. This has to do with “who really is, not was a Jew”

    But Who really is a Jew?

    (Romans 2:29) . . .But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God. . .

    This concept is really quite simple to understand. Jesus was anointed king of the Jews by God and presented himself to the nation of Israel. When the nation of Israel as a provision rejected Jesus, it was then rejected by God. Jesus left and the true Jews followed him. There were no Jews left in the nation of Israel.
    After Armageddon when Christ rules over the twelve tribes during the thousand years of peace, there will be only true Jews under their king Jesus, the “Amen”.
    *** it-2 pp. 73-74 Jew(ess) ***
    Figurative Use. The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews [those claiming to be] were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. [So these people were mistaken, they were not Jews]. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28, 29) Here Paul, by a play on the meaning of the name Judah, shows that the real basis for praise from God is being a servant of God from the heart, by spirit. This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham. He further points out that in the Christian [another misunderstanding] congregation nationality is of no consequence, for “there is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile].” (Ga 3:28) The resurrected Jesus Christ spoke to the congregation at Smyrna, comforting them with regard to the persecution they were receiving, to a great extent at the hands of the Jews [those claiming to be Jews], saying: “I know . . . the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, [as opposed to his followers, the true Jews] and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.”—Re 2:9.

    By Paul’s day there was a great difference between the common use of the description “Jew” and what it actually referred to. In Galatians 3:28 he points this out by saying that it was incorrect to use the term “Jew” to refer to nationality, and why he combined Greek with Jew, slave with freeman, male with female; those that followed Jesus were all true Jews and Abraham’s seed. The distinguishing characteristic was that these were all circumcised of heart; they were made Jews by the condition of their heart due to their frame of mind, that of being under Yahweh’s influence, not the condition of their flesh. These true Jews followed Jesus their king, and were later called by the vernacular term “Christians”. The Bible records the title “Christian” as appearing to be providential, but says nothing about it being God given. Remember that providential refers to a [g]od-like influence and does not make specific reference to which “god”. Also note that the Bible does not state that it was from the true “God”, Yahweh. Keep in mind that while Jesus was to reveal the truth, Satan, god of this system (2 Corinthians 4:4) is actively trying to hide it.
    Remembering this makes it easy to see that Satan could well have been responsible for the term “Christian” which is accepted by many Bible scholars as derogatory. The Jews of prophecy, God’s people needed to be hidden from the world if at all possible by Satan. One can see Satan did a good job with this attempt to rename them. Think about it. The followers of Jesus were in the middle of a nation that hated them lending weight to this view of the title “Christian” being derogatory. Satan was misleading the world to think that all that was necessary to serve God was to be a member of an “organization” like the nation of Israel, which of course he knew would condemn mankind. This promoted misunderstanding of the term Jew along with concealing the true path, and has continued down to our very day.
    If you keep track of noteworthy men and women who held an approved frame of mind down through time especially since Abraham, it helps to see that when it was time to be gathered together as a chosen people it was a major land mark. This “chosen people”, the true Jews, were placed under the oversight of an organization (nation of Israel, old builders) which had the responsibility to build them up as the house of God (Matthew 21:42). However, this responsibility was not carried out, and this organization rejected the new king Jesus. The nation of Israel was then rejected by God and the true Jews left along with Jesus.
    (Galatians 3:26-29) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, [true Jews] heirs with reference to a promise. . .

    The majority of mankind believes that the nation of Israel is populated by Jews. This assumption is wrong. Remember that nationality, social circumstance or gender will not make you a Jew or a follower of Jesus, as Paul pointed out in Galatians. In Romans he explains that being a member of the nation of Israel (nationality) does not make you a Jew, nor does being able to prove you are a physical descendant of Abraham.
    An interesting thing to note is Paul does not seem to realize that within his own explanation of who really is a Jew, he establishes that he was not himself a Jew until he expressed faith in Jesus as the son of God. The realization that there was a path that had existed before the nation arrived, and had briefly passed through the nation of Israel while they were to be the builders, must have been the basis for Paul’s considerations. He now had an overview with the information revealed by Jesus.
    Mankind was now in the process of becoming “sons of God”. The true Jews were now to become the “sons of God” through Jesus their king and messiah by receiving that which was promised. He was the provision sent by God with the “good news” that there was going to be a new administration, with him as the head. When he was rejected he left with the “remnant” of true Jews. In time, people from the nations with the right heart were added to these true Jews by a process described as “grafting”, making it possible for both those living and those who had died to be recognized as true Jews. The true Jews of Jesus’ day along with these grafted true Jews would form the twelve tribes of the thousand year reign of Christ under their Father Yahweh.
    The following quote is an example of how these kinds of misunderstandings occur.

    *** jv chap. 11 pp. 149-150 How We Came to Be Known as Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
    The Name Christian
    True followers of Jesus Christ, both in the first century and in modern times, have referred to themselves and to fellow believers as “the brothers,” “the friends,” and “the congregation of God.” (Acts 11:29; 3 John 14; 1 Cor. 1:2) They have also spoken of Christ as “the Master” and of themselves as “slaves of Christ Jesus” and “slaves of God.” (Col. 3:24; Phil. 1:1; 1 Pet. 2:16) Such designations have been used freely within the congregation, and there they have been well understood.

    Keep in mind that the Romans and the nation of Israel were not worried about a “way of life/lifestyle” but rather a “way” of thinking, reasoning. This helps us to understand that ideas related to the concept of “way” held by the organization of the witnesses and the world in general would be hindered by their general misconception that “way” is a reference to life style. Simply living a life style is something of which almost anyone would be capable. The Bible also mentions that it was Yahweh’s “way”, again certainly not a reference to life style.

    If you check the references, especially 1 Peter 12- 16, you will note you can see that the true Jews, true followers of Christ, were suffering under the title “Christians” as it was pointed out earlier, because they had become known by the world as “Christians”. Both the Romans and the nation of Israel used this name to identify and persecute those whose “way” of thinking was abhorrent to them.

    *** Bible Citations ***
    (1 Peter 4:12-16) Beloved ones, do not be puzzled at the burning among YOU, which is happening to YOU for a trial, as though a strange thing were befalling YOU. 13 On the contrary, go on rejoicing forasmuch as YOU are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that YOU may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory. 14 If YOU are being reproached for the name of Christ, YOU are happy, because the [spirit] of glory, even the spirit of God, is resting upon YOU. 15 However, let none of YOU suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 But if [he suffers] as a Christian, let him not feel shame, but let him keep on glorifying God in this name.

    Obviously to be called by the title “Christian” was a mark of great shame among the nation of Israel and the Romans. The point here is that having left the nation of Israel the true Jews should no longer take on shame from these derogatory names. Only being accused of real acts against God, such as murder or theft was significant.

    ***it-2 cont.
    Derisive Nicknames
    From the 16th century onward, this situation posed a problem for the Reformers. Since the name Christian was being used so loosely, how could they distinguish themselves from others who claimed to be Christians?
    Often they simply acquiesced to the use of a derisive nickname given to them by their enemies. Thus theological opponents of Martin Luther, in Germany, were the ones that first applied his name to his followers, calling them Lutherans. Those associated with John Wesley, in England, were labeled Methodists because they were unusually precise and methodical in the observance of religious duties. Baptists at first resisted the nickname Anabaptist (meaning, “Rebaptizer”) but gradually adopted the name Baptist as a sort of compromise.
    What about the Bible Students? They were dubbed Russellites and Rutherfordites by the clergy. But adopting such a name would have fostered a sectarian spirit. It would have been inconsistent with the reproof given to early Christians by the apostle Paul, who wrote: “When one says: ‘I belong to Paul,’ but another says: ‘I to Apollos,’ are you not simply men [that is, fleshly in outlook instead of spiritual]?” (or Christian, belonging to Jesus rather than the Father)(1 Cor. 3:4) Some people labeled them “Millennial Dawnists”; but Christ’s Millennial Reign was only one of their teachings. Others called them “Watch Tower People”; but that too was inappropriate, for the Watch Tower was merely one of the publications that they used to disseminate Bible truth.

    Looking at the process closer to home, Rutherford claimed the title “Jehovah’s Witnesses” to separate the 144,000, “the anointed” as he described them, from those calling themselves Christian. This title “Jehovah’s Witnesses” has never been associated with any other members within their organization or associated congregation, even though it is a popular misconception that all who associate can call themselves “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. We pointed out this fact to our then elders and the response was, “yes that was the case but the general congregation of those associating was not strong enough to be told this information”. So we can see how these things happen even in our day.
    This same process was likely responsible for the adoption of the title “Christian” by those with less than a clear understanding of who they were to become through “grafting”. The wolves fulfilled their predicted role.
    (Acts 20:29, 30) 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

    In conclusion, a small group of people (true Jews) realize that the man Jesus is really God’s son and their new king. They live amongst a nation that has long been accustomed to God’s help and approval. This small group now tells those calling themselves “Jews”, that not only does the nation no longer have God’s approval, but the majority of the population have never been “Jews”. We can visualize the scene at the time: Man on the street, “yes, I have heard him express his “way” of thinking. He is one of those Christians, certainly not one of us, a Jew.” It seems fairly simple to see the setting and circumstance given the time period.
    Who really is a Jew? And where have they gone?
    Jesus as the last word:
    “I know . . . the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.”—Re 2:9.

    So the last question to consider is, are you really a Christian, or a true Jew?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Traveler – Bible Students agree with you that the “New Creation” are spiritual Israelite’s. Some Bible promises are to spiritual Israel and some to natural Israel alone, like Jer 31 and Amos 9:14-15 (NKJV) “14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the LORD your God.”

      Check out this comprehensive link of the scriptural evidence for which covenants apply to which people. Let me know what scripture you think we are misapplying. Thanks. http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/THE-CHURCH-AND-GODS-COVENANTS-2013-July-25.pdf

  • Brettstone

    Peter-
    I have a question with regards the Old Covenant. It was promised that if the Nation of Isreal kept the covenant they would become Kingdom of Priests
    Exodus 19:5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”

    Peter references this at 1Pe 2:9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
    It appears that the blessing of being under the New Covenant would be to become a royal priesthood, but it’s obvious that the New Covenant is with the Nation of Isreal and not with the Bride of Christ, his church! So how does this apply?

    • Jacqueline

      Brettstone, this time I will wait on Br. Peter to answer, because I just attended a seminar where they made mention of the bride of Christ, the Church, the marriage but matter of factly had the 144,000 as being the priestly class and didn’t see a problem with it being the Jews. I like hearing others viewpoint on this and here you are asking the same question. But I will wait on the scriptural support from Br. Peter.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Brettstone – Great question. In Exodus 19:5, the opportunity for natural Israel to become a kingdom of priests was under the Law Covenant, not the New Covenant. If Israel had obeyed God’s voice and kept his Law Covenant, they would not have needed a New Covenant.

      1 Peter 2:9 transfers this opportunity to be a kingdom of priests to the Bride of Christ, I believe under the Abrahamic promise to bless all the families of the earth. Neither of these passages mentions the New Covenant. However, just like the Law Covenant, the New Covenant was added the the Abrahamic Covenant and the new priesthood will operate in blessing the world through this New Covenant..

  • Brettstone

    Peter-
    Hello Peter hope all is well with you. I have a question I hope you might have an answer to!
    In what year did the Watch Tower adopt replacement Theology? That is the replacement of fleshly Isreal in bible prophecy? It appears to me that it took place somewhere in the late 1920’s or early 1930’s. But from what I have seen it appears it was sometime before Rutherford changed the doctrine to accept or adopt christendoms view with replacement theology.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Brettstone – I ran out of time and am not sure when I can get the answer. You may find it here: http://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2013/06/14/how-j-f-rutherford-consolidated-dictitorial-power/

    • Brettstone,

      I believe you are right. It was in 1925 an article was written in the WT called, “A Nation is Born” that some early replacement theology began.

      In the same year Rutherford wrote a book called, “Comfort for the Jews” in which he showed from Scripture the hope for natural Israel’s restoration and return to their homeland.

      A few years later Rutherford wrote a couple of books (Light 1 and Light 2) that really started the downward trend towards replacement theology. By using terms “true israelites” or “spiritual israelites” Rutherford pursued the downward course of forsaking the chosen people of God during the 1930’s.

      “…during the World War the Jews received recognition of the heathen nations. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan’s organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors… The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved.” (J.F. Rutherford, ‘Vindication’ Vol.2, p.258 ) (There were three vindication books published between 1931-1932.

      As you get further into the 1930’s Rutherford’s letter to Hitler and other evidences of his lack of love for the Jews became manifest even further.

      • Brettstone

        JeffM-
        Nice information.. Thanks for adding that. I had looked over a lot of information and couldn’t find anything. I did and still enjoy the reference material Peter gave “Desolation of the Santuary” realy good reading!

  • Ex JW

    Do you guys still have phone meetings on Wednesday nights?

  • Hello all,
    I’m just ‘hankering’ to make a comment ;-).
    Great intro essay straight from the scriptures. Wonderful, not because that is what I have on my site, but because it is simply true.
    What comment can I add to that? Let me try.
    The Hebrew word used in Jeremiah 31:36 with reference to Israel’s continuing existence is Strong’s 3117. Though translated forever (KJV), that is nowhere near the actual meaning of the word, the prime definition being the hot part of the day, with no eternity even implied.
    Biblical Hebrew, however, does have a dual-word phrase that absolutely guarantees eternity of whatever it is thus defining.
    Unfortunately for those who believe in a permanent presence of Israel on earth, or anywhere really, that word combo-phrase does not have a presence in Jeremiah 31:36 or anywhere else connected with Israel.
    This phrase combines Strongs’s Hebrew 05769+05703 and occurs 17 times in the Old Testament, like it does for example in Psalm 104:5 where God absolutely guarantees the permanence of Planet Earth.
    Israel, the seed of Abraham, has only been assigned a temporary role to form a heavenly government to implement the restoration of the Edenic opportunity to all humans past, present and future, to enable each and every one to decide their future for themselves on the basis of the choices they will soon be presented with.
    As the Law to Israel has it, that no son is ever to be punished for the sins of his father(Deuteronomy 24:16), likewise no human shall ever wear any legacy of sin and punishment from their collective father Adam.
    Please check out my website, which I am unfortunately not permitted to devulge here. http://www.sanctifyname.com
    Bye for now, Dieter G

    • Jacqueline

      Dieter, hello did you want me to insert your website’s name in your comment?

      • Thank you Jacqueline,
        I was not whingeing, complaining, feeling unwanted, kicked about, disenfranchised, ignored, even shunned or all the above. Whew!
        I said this out of a sincere respect for your collective stand on matters truth, doctrine and understanding as well as a need to protect the unweary in your community from having their faith undermined.
        Funny thing that, I really do not wish for the faith of individual JWs to be undermined either; perhaps just strengthened with a somewhat greater focus on the Scriptures away from the organisational mindset common to all religions, tribes and nations.
        You wouldn’t believe this, but I frequently feel a little awkward and even guilty when I provide my site’s URL, for those very reasons.
        Then again I do not wish to beat around the bush if a truth needs to be told. A difficult path indeed.
        How about you and your fellow administrators deciding each case on its relative merits, inserting a page reference at your discretion.
        My principal reason for my efforts is to free the re-enslaved after Jesus had already set them free long ago when he died.
        Throughout Christianity reside many a faithful widow or fatherles boy needing comfort. You are doing that and I hope I can.
        I am currently ruminating about the Only-Begotten-Son, type/antitype, shadow/reality origin/dreamtime whatever. The JWs really messed that up. So have others.
        Jacqueline, perhaps I should have just said yes or no to the question prompting this note, but wanted to explain my humanity.
        Bye, and thanks again, Dieter

        • Jacqueline

          Dieter, I inserted your website in your comment where you say see it here.
          I am glad you answered with an explanation, and I agree with you that witnesses have a shaking of their faith when they hear any truth about their governingbody especially.
          I don’t wish to cause anybody that type of mental harm if they are happy and stable in their beliefs in the witnesses. That would not be loving. My relative asked me within a month if i was one of the people that stand outside the conventions and picket. I told her NO! I believe people should have the right to think and choose their religion. That is Jesus territory.
          But I also feel we on this site don’t have the right to monitor what you write unless it is offensive or if you are an apologist that clog up the site to keep people from reading comments.
          The persons coming to this site can read other material all over the web and ake their own decisions. I think they need to hear other thoughts. I do. I find I can understand the Bible more now if I pray for Holy Spirit in Jesus name, it really works every time. As a witness I had to go look up what the society said on a scripture. But now I can read and listen to what others say. I used to put workers at “Mind, Body and Spirit” events for the various religions around the Chicago area and heard many different viewpoints. One thing is I learned respect for some of the Ministers.
          The governingbody allows dancing on the actual platform of Jehovah witnesses doing the line dance with footloose, the song playing and sisters dancing and shaking on the platform to Happy, the song. SOME OF THE MINISTERS I MET WOULD FAINT if you brought any such music into the actual podium part of their “church”. The events were held in other rooms but never on their stage would a party go on.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcj1-XFqBiE Happy is near the end but there is one more before happy. Remember this is on the actual platform.
          SHEPHERDING THE FLOCK OF GOD BOOK, pg.127, par 6,7 Weddings.
          ” 6. Any decoration of the Kingdom Hall or rearrangement of the chairs must be approved. ONLY music selected from Kingdom Melodies or that is found in our songbook may be used. 7. “should reflect dignity, honor and seriousness…….It is not appropriate to tell humorous stories or read poems simply to entertain or amuse the Audience.”

          All videos for “footloose” have been taken down as it is a song about rebellion against strict religion. A former JW called Bethel and alerted them to this video and it came down within a day.
          So this website are for those that see something isn’t quite right and is not for those that are secure in their leaders advice, (governingbody)

    • Stanley L.

      If by your comment you mean that there is no assurance of permanency here for Israel I would have to disagree with you on several account, Dieter

      First, from the perspective of language. I use BDB’s Hendrickson’s 2010 Ed of their fine lexicon, one which I understand still enjoys something of a gold status among biblical Hebrew lexicons despite the Qumran finds. On page 400 of that edition in the entry for H3117 I find that the Qal-Hayamim double carries the significance of “always, continuously” and they specifically cite Jer. 31:36 as an example of that usage. But, then, he is using it in the context that which would be familiar to English speakers that only if the sun were to stop shining, only then would the nation cease to be from before him as a nation “always, continuously”. That is quite an extreme promise from God that they would stand before them forever.

      Although he didn’t quote that specific verse out of the prophecy, Paul quotes from the prophecy twice in the book of Hebrews (Heb. 8:8-12 & 10:16-17), thus reaffirming the fidelity of that promise and the surety of its fulfillment. In fact, unlike the way it often get interpreted Paul is actually pointing out that the New covenant is with the natural Nation of Israel.

      So although we might be able to argue finer points of the language, context and Paul’s use of said context clarifies for us what is meant. that context is so important for in spite of our increase in knowledge of the ancient Hebrew language our knowledge is still quite inadequate.

      • Dieter G

        Submitted on 2014/10/21 at 12:06 am
        Hello Stanley,
        Thank you for your reply. Just responding without any notion to win. I have no need to win even as I have nothing to lose.

        Yes, the New Covenant or last will and testament, as Paul clearly identifies both covenants where someone has to die for another to inherit, was indeed made between God and the Israel of the old covenant. I never suggested otherwise.

        So in Jeremiah 31 Jehovah assured Israel of continuance, but only until the completion of their assignment as the Seed of Abraham; their journey tracing from the original promise Genesis 22:18; via reaffirmation of identity Isaiah 41:8; sin and curse Leviticus 26; Deuteronomy 28:15-68; redemption of Israel’s world Isaiah 53; John 1:29; 3:16; Matthew 15:24; post Messianic continuance Galatians 3:28-29; to removal of the curse Revelation 21/22.

        Christianity has inappropriately dragged Hebrew #03117 by the hair into the arena to mean something it does not. Here are the only places in the KJ Authorised by King James Version of the O.T. where Strong’s Hebrew #03117 occurs as ‘ever’ out of 2274 occurrences, but never forever, which was cleverly edited away in most translations, by placing a space between for and ever:
        Genesis 43:9; 44:32. Deuteronomy 18:5; 19:9. Joshua 4:24. 1 Samuel 2:32, 35; 28:2. 1 Kings 5:1; 11:39; 12:7. 2 Chronicles 10:7; 21:7. Psalms 37:26. Jeremiah 31:36; 32:39; 35:19.
        Please go to the source and more at: http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/3117.html

        Ethnic presence and identity never God’s purpose, Israel’s destiny was heavenly governance.
        God’s purpose and written word sit right in between Israel’s permanence taught by some and annihilation by others. While the Law decreed Israel’s death for disobedience, God’s promises to the fathers were absolute.

        Then why this pre-occupation with an Israel in the flesh?
        The literate elite in England, and much of the rest of the Western World, were Christians of Jewish descent, because all early Christians were Jews*. All leading positions in the early church were likewise occupied by those of Jewish descent*. This trend has persisted down to this day, whatever the prevailing flavour of their personal Christianity, and has impacted on Bible translation and commentary. Israel had to be eternalised at all costs.
        * though Gentile proselytes later became an integral part of the anointed Israel of God, Jews would still have dominated in leadership positions.

        In Jeremiah 31:35-37 Jehovah is using hyperbole to encourage the dispirited Israelites facing the inevitable destruction of their lives under the Law, apparent loss of the promises and the attendant inheritance due a firstborn son (Exodus 4:22) and being placed on death row seemingly without a redeemer, ransom or hope of a final atonement, later promised in the last verse of Ezekiel 16 while already having a presence within the Promises themselves, for Jehovah NEVER makes promises he unable and/or unwilling to keep.

        God assured them of the permanence of their assignment until completion. In verse 36 some English/German translations correctly read ‘all the days’ rather than ‘for ever’. while the NWT uses ‘always’.

        Ever and always have no absolute definition: “You ALWAYS say this!” or “I shall love you for EVER!” Death will terminate the reality of the intent. All assurances are limited by the brevity of our vicissitudinous lives.

        Then there is Hyperbole: In the phrase ‘I sooner make love to an Elephant than to kiss you’, in response to an invitation to kiss another man, the comparison lies in the equality of the act of the choosing rather than in the value of each of the two choices. The phrase is pure hyperbole. The value of the verb ‘to choose’ is forever equal, whereas the value of the thing or action chosen, is unlikely to be.

        In Jeremiah 31:35-37 one cannot, therefore, compare the value of Israel with the value of Jehovah’s inimitable laws governing the universe. Ludicrous to say the least.
        Jehovah’s laws are as infinite in their beginning as He is who had none. They had no beginning and they were always with Him whereas the Seed of Abraham Israel (Isaiah 41:8) did have a beginning from out of the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

        This is where it tends to invoke a smile or two.
        Very difficult, if not impossible for someone to be the seed of another and yet have a beginning before the one whose seed one is, since the one producing the seed would need to have been before the one who was before the universe ;-(
        This arises from Ephesians 1:3-5, where verse 4 uses ‘before the foundation of the world’* and is consistently misapplied to mean which one? ‘world’, ‘world’ or ‘world’ as used throughout the King James Bible NT, whereas these ‘worlds’ are entirely different according to the Greek text on which these translations are supposedly based i.e.: Strong’s #165, 2889 and 3625.
        Please see: http://www.sanctifyname.com/threeworlds.html.
        * some translations read ‘before the creation of the world’, while others have: ‘before the creation of the universe’, because none seem to take the three different underlying Greek words into consideration.

        Well now, the ‘world’ in verse 4 of Ephesians 1 translates the Greek Strong’s 2889:
        1. Order of things, Government 2. Decoration, adornment – used consistently for Israel with some exceptions according to context, while considering that Israel was the first and only ‘Order of things and Government’ (1) organised by God for any group of people/tribe, while also God’s ‘Decoration, Adornment’ (2) as His wife.
        This is the broader context of the Jer. 31 verses in question, as are the two testaments made by the testator Israel who had to die twice for another to inherit.

        Once for disobeying Jehovah’s Law, cursed with complete annihilation but redeemed by dying in the person of their Messiah lamb and the second time because flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the heavenly Kingdom the small flock of the anointed Israel of God were to inherit.
        For greater detail please see here:
        http://www.sanctifyname.com/test%20or%20cov.html

        Jehovah’s only begotten son inherited Israel the first time and Jehovah Himself shall inherit the flock of His inheritance at the end of their 1000-year reign. http://www.sanctifyname.com/inheritance.html

        This is NOT Jehovah’s Witness’ doctrine, which is contrary to Jehovah’s purpose encapsulated in just three little verses Genesis 1:26-28. It shall be accomplished as intended – No ifs no buts.
        The rest of the Bible after Genesis Chapter 3 where Adam failed to co-operate, is about the preparation of the means to get humanity back to these verses in Genesis: The Seed of Abraham Israel.

        Once the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have been fulfilled, the seed of Abraham Israel will cease to exist, while their accomplishments and that of their saviour shall forever remind humanity of Jehovah’s love and the rightness of yielding to His righteous requirements.

        May I encourage you to explore this page and all its submenus:
        http://www.sanctifyname.com/israel.html
        Additional pages to familiarise yourself with, for the big picture of God’s purpose and His inimitable scriptures: http://www.sanctifyname.com/exodus2.html and http://www.sanctifyname.com/reconciliation.html and of even greater necessity to understand the Scriptures is: http://www.sanctifyname.com/pronouns.html

        Thank you again for your comments, Dieter G

        • Stanley L.

          Hello there Dieter:

          I’ll take things in the spirit you express and treat it the same way.

          From what I read it seems to me that you are trying to treat the word “yom” as if it were a stand alone in the passage under discussion. It isn’t as this is how it is written in the Leningrad Manuscript, כָּל־הַיָּמִֽים, so it is part of a doublet, which I know you recognize because you invoked another doublet to make your case earlier. That being the case it takes on a meaning of its own, in this case a variation on its literal “all the days.” That’s just another way of saying “forever.” As I mentioned earlier, BDB assigns that meaning to to it and invokes that specific verse as an example, and both the IAV and JPS Translations use that meaning as well. For those who might have trouble with that one both of those translations are Jewish translations. So I don’t see where your case is on a solid foundation. Even the page you so kindly linked for me didn’t treat the combination, other than assigning the meaning of “ever” to the word in isolation. Sadly the same source did not treat the word “Qol” (H3605) in its occurrence in that passage or even list it in its concordance. I doubt it would alter my conclusion if it did. The German translations are of a more literal nature than most English, almost akin to the Emphatic Diaglott when it comes to the matter (I do read German and have a number of German translations on my e-sword program, but only one of which uses that expression). But all they do is render it in a literal fashion.

          But then that is just a side issue on language technicalities. The use of the phrase “forever” applies to how long Israel would cease to be a nation, and it would only happen if the universal laws put in place by Jehovah ceased to be. That is just another way to say that the nation of Israel would continue before him eternally.

          Why the concentration on Israel as a fleshly nation? It’s simple, that is the future promised to them, not a heavenly one, but an earthly future. There are three great Abrahamic covenants. In his letter to the Galatians Paul was very careful to make it clear that the Church, both Jewish and Gentile members are the heirs to the Grace, or “Sarah” Covenant. Then he points out that the natural Jews who did not fully consecrate into the Sarah covenant were parties to the “Hagar” covenant, that is the Mosaic Covenant (Gal. 4).

          It is in his exposition to the Hebrews that Paul brings in the third, or “New” Covenant which God promised to the Jews in the 31st chapter of Jeremiah and which he affirms is with the Jews who do not come into the Church (Heb. 8-10). That isn’t a heavenly inheritance. Only the church has that, as Paul noted to fellow Jewish members of the Church in verses 19-39 of the tenth chapter. The “new,” or “Keturah” covenant (if we can extend the familial analogy out, as we feel we have authority to do since there a third woman is named in Abraham’s life, a wife who bore him six sons after Sarah died [Gen. 25:1])is with Israel and is negotiated by Jesus as its mediator and is for eternal life on the earth. This is after the “Fulness of the Gentiles has come in”, that is, the church is completed and then the blindness Israel continues under is lifted (Rom. 11:7-10,25-28).

          We believe the rest of mankind is eventually brought into that by way of conversion, just as the Jews have to convert and accept Jesus as their messiah. May I encourage you to see more at the article Three Great Covenants

          The rest of your comment goes off on something of a tangent because you are trying to make a point that the “Seed” ceases by a pathway I don’t really see the relevancy of. So I won’t go there, Dieter.

          By the way, you don’t need to point out to me what is or isn’t JW doctrines, I used to be one. However, if you choose to so that there are no misunderstandings for those among our readers who’ve never been involved with that group, I’ll thank you for that kindness to them. I just wanted you to know I already know their doctrines and teachings because I was among them for 30 years.

          Please don’t get bent out of shape if it takes me a few days to see a post. I don’t always check everyday. I’ve cut back my net time to work on other priorities I’ve put in place this year.

          • Brettstone

            Stanley-
            I enjoyed reading your rebuttal.. But I can’t help but notice you were a JW 30 yrs. I myself 20 4 as MS and 12 as Elder, recently resigned and have since gone MIA. Conscious started bothering me a couple years ago as to doctrine, first and foremost “Armegedon” then when I read the articles on the Ransom here on friends of JW that little voice got louder and then dealings with CO, DO and there minions pushed me over the edge.. But I’m curious of your story and how you got here if you don’t mind telling me your story!

  • Hank

    To Peter;

    Surprised who makes it, and where I end up. And no central organized authority.

    Would like to share a few thoughts with you. As to who makes it first. No surprise as to the twelve making it. “‘His office of oversight let someone else take.'” Acts 1:20 “‘May another take his office.'” “‘take his place of service.'” BW,s Diaglott, “The charge of him let take another.”

    Westcott and Hort, “The overseership of him let take different(ones).

    Before this happened and Jesus disappeared in from of their eyes in a cloud they came and met. All eleven of them are named. Acts 1:12 and 13.

    Was it a everybody for them self attitude? “With one purpose all of these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.” Acts 1:14 Verse 15 says about 120 were together. Note what Peter said Judas Iscariot had obtained. “and he obtained a share in this ministry.” Acts 1:17 If one reads Mat. 10:1-7 they will see that the original twelve were all trained by Jesus to the preaching work, which of coarse would be a part of their ministry. An d I cannot find any of the new group of twelve saying to stop the preaching, which makes me believe they were all faithful preachers down to death. Rev. 21:14, “The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.”

    So I am convinced they will be there in heaven, even thought I never saw or new them. Which brings me to, will I know anyone in my lifetime personally who will be there? Have only met I think four. It could be possible we will find out. But with Satan out of the way, and sickness and death removed, is it really important? My feelings are no.

    But lets now take a look at the organization of the 120, about. Big word stands out. PRAYER! And we have to keep in mind they new how to pray, for Jesus helped teach them. Mt. 6:9

    Another big word that stood out. David spoke prophetically. HEBREW SCRIPTURES!

    Another stand out. HOLY SPIRIT! That is how David did it. But it is now important to see that after prayer, the understanding is coming to them or maybe only one of them. Peter is doing the talking so we know he is understanding it.

    Now before picking the replacement, note what takes place. “Then they prayed.” For what? “to take the place of this ministry and apostleship.” Acts 1:24,25.

    At this point it would be good to read chapter two of Acts. A miracle taking place. Many religious people there, who believed in the Hebrew Scriptures. 2:13, “However others mocked them.” While others in their language hear, “magnificent things of God.” 2:11

    So why did I leave you with Acts 6:1? A big problem amongst the newly anointed brothers and sisters. We should note here then that God allows problems to happen with his anointed ones.

    How would this problem be solved? Verse 2, “So the Twelve called the multitude of the disciples together and said.” Now it is good to point out, it did not say the Twelve prayed first, but my feelings is that they did. Likewise my feelings that the Twelve did not all speak but probably only one of them. But if we examine the Scriptures, we can see they did not beg off by assigning the job out food out. But they according to the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures they did what it said they should. Ps 104:27,28.

    But the Twelve who made the leadership move, said they had something else to do. 6:4, “but we will devote ourselves to prayer and the ministry of the word.” How did the other anointed ones take their leadership role? Verse 5, “What they said was pleasing to the whole multitude.”

    Now according to Acts 15 it looks like the responsibility had grown from 12. Verse 2, “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue.”

    Was this one pleasing to all? Verse 5 shows that it was not pleasing to all. So then what? Verse 7, “much intense discussion.”

    Note these words addressed to the anointed, “So why now are you making a test of God? Verse10 13, “After they finished speaking , James replied.” Not just one person speaking. Showing the apostles and elders making leadership calls. And after they fled Jerusalem in 66 C.E. the city was destroyed 4 years later.

    Organization-23,”They wrote this and sent it through them.” “The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia who are from the nations: Greetings!”

    After they left Jerusalem in 66 C.E. there is no record showing the apostles and elders governing. All the Greek Scriptures had been recorded except for John’s Five writings. And most of them apostles and elders had been put to death, and the great apostasy was already at work, and when John died, it sprang like a pack of weeds.

    So what would we expect for the end times? God using men to lead his people? Or God saying, you have free will believe the way you want.

    So Peter, as to your opening words, “and where I end up.” I earnestly hope it will be someplace good for you.

    Take care Hank

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