Most Christians believe the New Covenant promised to Israel was transferred to spiritual Israel, the Church. Yet if God made an unconditional promise to natural Israel, to break it would make him a liar. It is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18). Without realizing it, many well meaning Christians have made God out to be a liar.
Jer 31:31-34 says, “31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (KJV)
This text can only apply to natural Israel, not the Christian church.
- Vrs. 31: Covenant made with house of Israel and house of Judah.
- Vrs. 32: Won’t be like covenant they broke after coming out of Egypt [Not true of Christian church. The Christian church never came out of Egypt].
- Context verifies natural Israel is being spoken of…
Jer 31:27-28: 27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. (KJV)
The Christian church was never plucked up and thrown down and destroyed by the Lord. These words can only apply to natural Israel.
Jer 31:35-37: 35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” 37 This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD. (NIV)
Israel will never cease to be a nation as long as the sun, moon and stars shine. God will never reject Israel since on Paradise Earth, the sun, moon and stars will continue to shine.
To Peter and Dupin and any others of interest;
Gal 3:16,”And to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say,’And to seeds’, cut as of , and to thy seed which is Christ.” Gen 24:7,”To thy seed I give this land, he doth send his messenger before thee, and thou has taken a wife for my son from thence.” Gen 25:5,”And Abraham giveth all that he hath to Isaac.” Also good to consider Gen 12:1; 12:7; 13:15; and 17:7
Gal 3:17,”A covenant confirmed before God to Christ,the law, that came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not set aside, to make void the promise.” Gal 3:18,”For if by the law be the inheritence, it is no more by promise, but to Abraham through promise did God grant it.”
Gen 22:17,”That blessing I bless thee, and multipling I multiply thy seed as starts of the heaven, and as sand which is on the seashore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enimies.”
Gen 49:10,”The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, and a lawgiver from between his feet, till his seed come, and his obedience of the peoples.”
Have we not seen people worshiped God before Abraham? But the promise was given to Abraham not them correct? So we ask,who will benefit from the promise?
Just jumping ahead a little. Gal 3:22,”that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.” And how do people get to be declared righteous? Gal 3:24,”that by faith we might be declared righteous.”
So proper faith and belief, with obedience, brings one to a righteous standing with God. So why had those Galatians allowed themselves to lose that precious standing? Well the enemy Satan has many ways in which to get people to lose that standing. So instead of looking at his tricks we will continue to examine Paul’s inspired words.
Hank
To Dupin and Peter any that might be interseted. Jusa reminder the verses used are from Young’s literal translation.
Gen 15:6,”And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him—righteousness.” Remember Paul used that at Gal 3:6.
Gen 18:18,”And Abraham certainly becometh a nation great and mighty, and blessed in him all nations of the earth.” And Gen 12:3,”And I bless those blessing thee, and him who idisesteeming thee I curse, and blessed in the have been all families of the ground.” Paul at Gal 3:8
Did you note all these blessing that will take place, yet Paul has pointed out that they need a wake up call. Because they were not obeying the truth.
Did these Galatians feel they were in a covenant? Is not a covenant a agrrement between wo or more persons? Whereby something to do or refraim from doing,s contract? Did God make a covenant with all flesh and animals? How long would that covenant last? Any thoughts?
Hank
Hank – The Galatians were no longer under the Law Covenant. Becoming heirs with Christ, they became part of the seed of Abraham (Jesus’ body members) to one day bless all the families of the earth. So the Galatians were under the Abrahamic covenant (the Sarah feature as pictured through her son, Isaac the spiritual seed).
To Peter and Dupin and any who are interested. Gal 3:1,”O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth.”
Picture this eclesia, we don’t know how many, but it is not to just one chosen one. And Paul was not trying to be funny by calling them thoughtless. But no, here they are prospective members of the 144,000. But somehow they had been charmed or facinated to not obey the truth.
We do well then to ask ourselves, has this ever happened to me?
Lets look at 3:6,”according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him as truth.” Please look up Gen 15:6. Lets think about that. Billions of people say they believe in God. And if that makes it good, then why single out Abraham back then and why use him again about 2,000 years later in the insired word?
How would a person who says I believe God, know whether or not he really does in the right way? And keep in mind what Paul is trying to do, Wake up chosen ones from spiritual death. They are not obeying the truth.
Gal 3:8,”And the writing hath foreseen that by faith God does declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham.” Please look up. Gen 12:3;18:18
Gal 3:9,”Blessed in thee shall be all the nations, so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.” Please look up. Heb 13:7; Gal 3:28,29; Heb 2:16.
We will stop here today, or for now. Hopefully we can agree that these chosen ones needed a wake up call. And if they did not turn around it would be devasting. And so far Paul has used the person Abraham. Also faith and belief with obedience would make a person righteous.
Hank
To Peter and any who want to listen;
On that material you gave it said the following. “The great majority of the exhortations in the New Testament are addressed to the chosen class. 2 Pe 1:11 (R4078:3)
In the material that I will be going over, keep in mind all verse are from Young’s literal translation. Also it will be in severl parts. Rather then any feed back other then saying I read it. I would like to take your notes and rebuttle when I say it is done.
It will take a week or two. Also keep in mind what the article said,”with the ending of the Israel age, another Israel was priviledged to enter into covenant relationship with God.” (1 Pe 2:5,9.)
Please keep these notes.
Hank
Hank – I wasn’t expecting that you would read all that. I was just trying to point out how deep the study of types and pictures in the Bible can get. I always recommend reading the Divine Plan of the Ages first. http://www.godsplan-today.com/#The%20Divine%20Plan%20of%20the%20Ages:English
To Dupin
Thank you for those articles. Peter just gave me two, one of which was almost 800 pages, the other much shorter. Thank you Peter also.
Right now off what Peter gave me I got a few maybes. Much like you mentioned,”it follows.” Or here is another,”Bro. Russell suggested that the golden and gold-plated vessels of the Tabernacle’s Holy and Most Holy represented the Church.” Here in another,”It is possible that ten out of eleven.” And last explain this one.
1. Amram Levite equals little flock.
2. Kohath Levite equals Great Company.
3. Merari Levite equals Ancient Worthies.
4. Gershom Levite equals world of mankind.
No where is Amran connected to the little flock in the Bible. One would have to use words like, it has been suggested,or it follows, orit could be a possibility. His name is about 11 times in the Bible, so I guess a person could say it is suggested that one of the twelve would fall away.
Kohath mentioned more times but now where with Great Company. Possibly it could follow he had a lot of kids thus showing Great Company.
Merari mentioned maybe a tad more then the previous one. Again no link to Ancient Worthies. Found Ancient and Worthy but no Ancient Worthies.
So right now I feel like you are selling me a car. And you said, it is a low price and I will give it to you for this low sum. So I cut the check and you leave. I get him and turn the key, nothing. I open the hood an the engine is missing.
Who would I blame? Myself! Why because I didn’t see that all that is there is not there.
I will when time allows come back to catch those Wt ers. Thank you. And I heard a rumor the ransom covers repentent angels. Can you show me the verses?
Hank
Okay Hank:
Since most of the information you commented on came from the articles Br. Peter linked for you I’ll let him explain it to you. I may go look the articles up myself.
Hank – My thought is that the Ransom does not cover repentant angels. God may forgive them, however the Ransom has nothing to do with that. Jesus died for mankind, not for the angels.
Now if you disagree with the applications of tabernacles symbols suggested by Brother Russell or Brother Frey, you are welcome to disagree. So then, what do you think that Amram, Kohath, Merari and Gershom represent? If you have something better to suggest we would like to here about it.
Thank you Peter
Hager is mentioned about 13 or 14 times in the Bible. Only twice by Paul.
Sarah is mentioned about 40 to 50 times 4 times by Peter and Paul. But Paul refers to her as a free woman, so he talks about her but does not use the name.
Keturah is mentioned is mentioned four time in the Bible but not in the 27 New Testament writings.
In my research it was used alot by Brother Russell and Brother Rutherford. But it was soon learned that in viewing the four places it talks about her, it says nothing about new covenant.
A great example of this is, John 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Rev 3:14. Father is greater than me. Knowledge of two not three for salvation. Jesus has a God. And Jesus was created.
Yet there are 2 billion people on earth that believe in the Catholic trinity that says they are 3 in 1 and co-equal.
Now Gen 25:1,4, and 1 Chron 1:32,33, says nothing about a covenant. Galatians where Paul says the following,”for these woman are two covenants.”4:24 ASV.
Yet like the Catholic trinity which puts three into the god-head, the early Bible Students put three into the covenant picture.
Just as holy spirit was left out of those four verses, Keturah has no verse linking her to the New Covenant.
As to if Brother Rutherford lived to see it taken out I am not sure, but the research I did was from the 1946 August 1st Watchtower Vol LXVII No 15.
The study article was titled, A NEW COVENANT WITH A NEW NATION.
A must read for anyone.
Because I cannot accept the trinity, I also cannot except the Keturah New Covenant.
I thank you all for your time spent.
Hank
Hank – First of all, you are welcome to believe what your study and conscience determine to be truth. Bible Students don’t judge our brothers and sisters outside of our fellowship if they come to a different conclusion on doctrines. We are satisfied to leave Jehovah/Yahweh as judge, and accept all sincere Christians who name the name of Christ as our friends.
Secondly, come on now Hank. Are you really comparing accepting the Trinity with the our view of the New Covenant. If so, you are the one who believes the Church/Anointed are under the New Covenant, right? So you are the one adding this third covenant, just like those rascally Trinitarians. (I am just being silly now, because I think your argument is weak.)
Yes, you are correct. There is no verse in the Bible that says that the Keturah represents the New Covenant. Nor is there any verse in the Bible that says that Sarah represents the New Covenant. What we know from Galatians is that Sarah and Hagar both picture covenants. I believe the Abrahamic and Law Covenants.
So the question is, can I make a type out of Keturah if the Bible does not directly state that Keturah is a type of the New Covenant? Well certainly, where we do not have direct statements from scriptures, we should not be dogmatic. We should not part ways over the difference of an interpretation of a type like this. I am just stating my interpretation here. However, let me ask again – should we make a type where there is not direct scriptural statement interpreting the type? Well, there are lots of Bible verses that hint to us about types, yet the Bible only begins to explain them. Much is left to the investigations of the curious and diligent student of scriptures.
Heb 8:5 (NKJV) “who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.””
Heb 9:9 (NKJV) “It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience––”
Heb 10:1 (NKJV) “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.”
Colossians 2:16-17 (YLT) “16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;”
So the Old Testament Tabernacle, Priesthood and Law arrangement under the Mosaic Law are all typical. What does it all mean?
Brother Russell gives his understanding in the book Tabernacle Shadows here:
http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf/d01f9bc2626a96a38625699900786730/9d93ac1d9cd7570e862564520082363f?OpenDocument
Brother Anoton Frey builds on this and adds more detail.
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/treatises/FreyTab.pdf
Is all this correct? I think it makes a lot of sense. Although there are not direct Bible verses that clearly state what all the these types represent, these writers use scripture to help interpret scripture in a remarkable, thrilling and compelling manner.
So we do not have direct scriptures to explain every detail of every type. However, since we do have direct scriptures telling us that Abraham’s other two wives represent covenants, it does not take a rocket scientist to follow the pattern and look for the picture intended in the third wife.
Hello there Hank:
Where we get the idea of the New Covenant also being the “Keturah” covenant is simple. As you noted for us Keturah is not mentioned in the New Testament, however her presence in a greater drama is implied in Galatians. There, in chapter four, Paul lays out the contrast in two covenants, one of which is with Abraham and includes the Christ and the church class, and a second, which is not part of the Abrahamic covenant and illegitimate in that respect, represented by the woman who bore Abraham an illegitimate son, Hagar. There we are informed that is the covenant with the Jews, the law covenant.
but in Genesis we’re told that after Sarah dies and the matter of a wife for Isaac is seen to Abraham takes another wife for himself who bears him six sons, Keturah (Gen 25:1-6). Since Sarah and Hagar represented covenants it follows that Abraham’s second wife may also represent a third covenant linked to Abraham. That’s where the “New Covenant” covered by Paul in Hebrews chapter eight comes into play. That covenant is the one by which those of humanity who prove themselves faithful will gain everlasting life. Since it fits the complete drama laid out in Galatians we refer to it as the Keturah covenant. Here are a couple of Zion’s Watch Tower articles on the subject:
http://biblestudents.net/htdb/r4510.htm
http://biblestudents.net/htdb/r4318.htm
I learned about the Keturah covenant courtesy of a discourse titled “The three covenants” given by Br. Barton and preserved for us in “Pilgrims Echoes.” That is a book you might want to purchase as it is filled with plenty of helpful material for those who don’t have the “Zion’s Watch Tower” reprints.
To Jacquelin,K, and Peter the unofendable. Reminds me of the untouchables. Smile Peter!
Here it goes. This would not be possible if one Catholic who bashes JWs had not made it possible. So lets look at it from an open discussion.
What the verses mean to a JW. What they mean to a BS. For an application in the time of the end.
Jer 31:23-30 Literal, Babylon destroys Jerusalem. 70 years later a remnant of the twelve tribes returned and rebuilt the temple. Jehovah blessed them with large flocks and plenteousness of farm products. They multiplied in numbers and so did the domestic anilmals.
If Jeremiah had then awakeened out of his sleep of death, he would have seen that beautiful miniature fulfillment. But think how pleasant it would have been to see the great work being done to vindicate Jehovah’s word in these last days. He will be so happy at the resurrection.
In these last days Jehovah has restored pure worship from Babylon the Great. Right at the holy mountain his spiritual temple. To a fearless, and united worship of him througout the earth.
But Jehovah was alert, had to uproot,overturn and demolish. How and why?
First we will look what happened with that happy return. They again slipped back to some problem area of worship. Then Jesus shows up to help correct things and even said I have been sent to the nation of Israel. And a Woman from the temple who was of the tribe of Asher was there. But it was going to only be a remnant that would put faith in him. 37 years later the old worship was removed, but the new way continued. Thus in the modern area, when sincere worshippers were coming together, things were going good. But when the Son showed up, he again had to separate the ones who would worship the Father in the right way and those that wanted it their way.
Thus they were ponded by Babylon the Great. Jehovah had not restored it for the purpose of bring reproach on his name. So he chastised them at the hands of their enimies. They were plucked from their comfort zone.
But just like when Israel returned from Babylon, they were returned to the spirtual paradise. The remnant had repented and started throwing out all pagan worship. Those that had decided to stay with the allowances of Baal, and golden calf worship were scattered from being a groups, forming many different groups, mostly of what dried up and withered away. But just like Israel of old, which does not have a temple, the ones today have no temple.
The repented ones then started receiving the blessings. God’s power reinstated them. He watches over them to do good. He has built them up, and replanted them in the earth as his witnesses, their enimies will fail to uproot,tear down,or destroy this faithful remnant.The remnant avoid the sour grapes of the Devil’s system. Instead they,(John15:1-8)
Individual members may go wrong, being attracted to the sour,death dealing grapes. But that will lead to total disappointment.
But the faithful enjoying God’s approval, announcing his kingdom and declaring the purposes for which his name stands.(Zeph. 3:13;Rev.22:3-5)So hold fast to this special blessing.
Hank
Thank you Peter.
Not sure what you were to bite. But I believe you agree with the Keturah covenant?
Thank you Peter.
Then where does Brother Russell insert Keturah? And why?
Hank:
Hagar = Law Covenant
Sarah = Abrahamic Covenant with focus on Isaac, i.e. the spiritual seed, the Anointed New Creation
Keturah = New Covenant made with Israel in the earthly kingdom and extend to mankind as they enter into and accept the kingdom arrangement
Thank you Jacquelin.
One more verse on the lesser. Luke9:48,”and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same is great.”
That way Paul,Peter or John could say they were great. But so could the one that is least. Although, true anointed don’t say they are great. It was a teaching to not let it go to ones head. Again, I have always appreciated being alive, and would be totally happy with everlasting life, even if I am the least. And they say water boy fetch us another pail. Yes family I will be right there.
It is Satan’s world that promotes a greatness.