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What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?

As noted in the answer to the prior question, “…they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;” (Rev 7:15 NWT).

Just as in the Old Testament the Levites provided service for the tabernacle (then later the temple) and supported the greater work of the Priests, so the Great Crowd are servants to Christ and the 144,000 Priestly class in God’s temple .

Rev 7:15 says that “the One seated on the throne will spread his tent [tabernacle] over them” (NWT).  In contrast, Rev 21:3 says, “The tent [tabernacle] of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples.” (NWT)  The Great Crowd are in the tent (from same Greek root word as tabernacle, i.e. Heb 9:2) in the same sense that the Old Testament Levites served in the tabernacle (Num 3:6-8; 16:8,9).  “The tent of God is with mankind” (Rev 21:3) in the same way that the tabernacle was with Israel (Lev 26:11; Ex 2:5:8); but only the Priests and Levites were permitted to go near it, not Israel.  So, just like the Levites, the Great Crowd will have a special role of service before the throne and in Jehovah’s tabernacle.  Yet just as the Levites had a less significant role than the priests, so the Great Crowd will have a less significant role than the Anointed 144,000 who are described as earth’s future priests and kings (Rev 1:6; 20:6, 2 Tim 2:12)

Ezekiel 44 symbolically speaks of the Anointed and Great Crowd.  The faithful priests of Ez 44:15,16 will minister to Jehovah in his sanctuary.  The Levites who went astray will “bear their error” (Ez 44:9-14 NIV), but they will still serve at the gates of Jehovah’s house.  Verse 14 says, “And I shall certainly make them caretakers of the obligation of the House, as regards all its service and as regards all that should be done in it.” (NIV)

This prophecy cannot be referring to the literal Jewish Priests and Levites after the time of Ezekiel, because it was never fulfilled that way.  This chapter symbolically refers to the time of Paradise Earth after the door is shut on the foolish virgins (Ez 44:1; Matt 25:10).  Ez 44 reveals the roles of the Priests (representing the 144,000) and the Levites (representing the Great Crowd).  The Great Crowd is actually of the Anointed during the Gospel Age, but they are not totally faithful and they are drawn to some degree after the idols of this life (vs 12) and become a stumbling block to others.

We are told that “they shall bear their error” (vs 12) and that ” they must bear their humiliation and their detestable things that they did” (vs 13).  This is the “great tribulation” that the Great Crowd is said to go through.  Rev 7:14 says, “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”  It is because the Great Crowd spots their robes (tarnishes their justified standing with Jehovah) with sin, that they must go through trying experiences (tribulation) in their life to wash those spots clean.  Although this has had a personal application to the Great Crowd throughout the Gospel Age, it seems to have a special application as well to a final trial at the time of the final Great Tribulation at the end of the Gospel Age.

33 comments to What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?

  • Bret

    Temple;

    In my view Jesus according to scripture came to fullfil the role of the first Adam he being the second Adam…

    What Adam lost was the possibility of becoming an Immortalized Man, had he carried iut his commision loyally to care for the earth and fill it….

    Adam failed his commision and lost what was offered to Adam, and lost what was lost was not life in Heaven….

    Lu 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

    I believe Adam would have eventually gained Immortality as well as all his offspring had they demonstrated loyalty…

    Life in Heaven is a thing completely foreign to the Old testemnt Jews as well as to Jesus followers who were jews and ecpected to rule on earth… Acts 1:6, Rev 5:10, Matt 5:5

    Gods plan of Immortality is not something that he did not have as a reward to Adam and his offspring…
    Eventual Immortality would bring an end to Death and the finality of populating the earth since Immortals are like the Angels in that they do not marry or are given in marriage…

    The Jews only knew of two ages… this age and the age to come…

    The age to come is Gods Kingdom on earth…

    • Bret

      “ETERNAL” OR “EVERLASTING LIFE”

      The term “everlasting” or “eternal life” is a poor representation of its very Jewish original (Chayay olam). The phrase zoe aionios, known to us all as everlasting or eternal life, really means the Life of the Age to Come or the Life of the Coming Kingdom, which is the same thing.
      Dr. Nigel Turner, remarks in his Christian Words: “It would be imprecise to translate aionios as ‘eternal’ . . . It means ‘belonging to the future age or dispensation’” (T & T Clark, 1980, 452, 455).

      Dr. Turner used a characteristic British understatement. “It is imprecise” to translate aionios as “eternal.” It is in fact very un-Jewish to render the word as “everlasting” or “eternal.” This is much too vague and helps to veil the whole idea of the future Kingdom of God on the earth in the Age to Come. It clouds and befogs the great cardinal virtue of Hope. It allows for all sorts of alien philosophy to invade the faith and gives support for life in heaven as a bodiless spirit, which is something Jesus said nothing about. In addition the rendering of aionios as “eternal” in Matthew 25:41 causes the average reader to think of an eternal punishment for the wicked, an idea which John Stott has recently given up (see “John Stott on Hell,” World Christian, May 1989), and if reports are correct, many in the Anglican community have recently renounced. A strong case can be made for the destruction of the wicked based on the fact that the fire which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is also “eternal” (aionios), that is “having to do with the future age of the Kingdom” (Jude 7). The fire is not still burning. What Jude meant was that the ancient fire which destroyed those evil cities was of the same sort as that which will destroy the wicked in the future. Supernatural fire is what is meant, not eternal fire.”

      The translation of aionios, wherever it appears, as “having to do with the coming age” or “belonging to the coming age” throws a flood of light on the text and saves us from much misinterpretation.
      How clear it is, for example, that in 2 Corinthians 5:1 Paul has in mind the future resurrection body of the believer which we “have,” i.e. we have it as something God has prepared for us. And it is aionios, a body fitted for the coming age of the Kingdom of God on earth. It is a body which enables us to maintain our identity. It will be a body animated by spirit and never subject to death.

      The Life of the Age to Come (appearing less clearly in your Bible as “everlasting, eternal life”) is promised in that wonderful verse in Daniel 12:2. This text so beautifully instructs us that the dead are now dead and asleep in the dust awaiting the call of Jesus to awake to the Life of the Age (to come) (Hebrew, Chayay olam). Based on this verse the New Testament expression “Life in the Age to Come” provides the substance of the Christian hope. Daniel 12:2 is thus massively cited in the New Testament. The greek equivalent to the Hebrew, Chayay olam is Zoe Aionios, Life in the Age to Come

      1We know that when the earthly “tent” we now live in is taken down, we have a house prepared by God, not made by human hands. It is a body fit for the Coming Age and is being prepared now in heaven. 2We sigh with longing for this, wanting so earnestly to be clothed with this new home which will come to us from heaven. 3When in the future we put on this clothing we will not be found naked. 4While we are in this present “tent” we sigh, being weighed down by this life.

  • Bret

    Greetings Everyone….

    I have a question I would like to pose for discussion,with regards to the 144,000 and if this number is literal or symbolic?

    I cannot help but notice Rev 7:3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

    Here it indicates that the servants are to be sealed before the “the four winds bring destruction”

    Verse 4 gives the number servants that are sealed before the four winds are let loose.. “144,000”

    I cannot help but notice that it is during this end times that the 144,000 are sealed. This does not say the remaining members of the 144,000….

    This is the whole group or entire number of 144,000 who are sealed just before the tribulation…

    Now it apears that the number 12 has symbolic significance throughout the Bible especially in the book of Revelation, and 12 squared or 144 as well (See Rev 21:17)

    It is believed that the 144,000 are the entire amount of chosen saints from Pentecost of the 1st century until now, but that is not implied at Revelation 7:1-4, where the total sealed just before destruction is 144,000 these are sealed just before the winds of destruction are unleashed…

    Rev 14 also seems to indicate that this group of 144,000 are existing during the time of the end…

    It apears to me that there is a lot read into thos group (144,000) that is not found in scripture… Nowhere does it state that the 144,000 include those who were sealed and died in the past but rather these 144,000 are existing during the time of the end…

    • ZionsHerald

      Hi Bret,

      I found your question about the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 interesting.

      To summarize, your question basically was, ‘Is this the whole group who were sealed and died in the past (the entire amount of chosen saints from Pentecost of the 1st century until now), or entire number of 144,000 who are sealed just before the “the four winds bring destruction?’

      This is a great question, and one that can be identified easily from the context. To get perspective of who, what, and WHEN Revelation 7 is speaking, lets back up in the context to see where in Revelation the chapter of placed.

      As for who the individuals in Revelation 7 are speaking of, we can definitely find them earlier in the book. We see them in Revelation 6:9 where it speaks of the souls wearing white robes (just like those in Revelation 7) under the altar who were violently killed because of their faith. According to the context, this is located in the fifth seal. Revelation 7 is located in the sixth. From the context we can see that they are not appearing on the scene only in the “time of the end.”

      In Revelation 6, we also see these same individuals in white robes. From this alone we can definitely see that they exist outside of the period mentioned in the 7th chapter, and it isn’t until the 7th chapter that someone asks, “Who are these in white robes”? The question is asked because they appear (without an introduction) earlier in chapter 6 described as wearing white robes. I suppose this is why the question is asked in Revelation 7. I can imagine John asking, “Hey…those guys were talking about in Revelation 6, who are they?” Revelation 6:11 states this would be continued until their number “would be completed also.” We know there number from what John tells us in chapter 7. It is only then that John numbers them.

      Revelation 6:11 states that when each of them was given a long white robe, and they were told to rest for a little longer. This verse is describing these individuals as existing prior to the period you were asking about. It appears that these are saints because of the way that they are described. Revelation 6:9 states that they were “slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.” These saints were faithful so that they would get their white robes. The Church can not say who is a saint and who is not. There are Churches who have claimed this today, and have for centuries.

      True Christians have been slain from the beginning for their faith. This will continue even up to the time of the end when this class is completed, as we see in Revelation 14 where it says “These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.” (Revelation 14:4-5)

      The text states that they are blameless, purchased as first fruits, and follow the lamb, and it states that they have “the word of God.” This describes the Church accurately, but the Church has not always had the word of God. It was outlawed for centuries, and was not available to the public until it started to be translated in the words of the common man at the time of the Reformation.

      This is the evidence we can gather from the minimal information we are given in the seals. But there is more in the corresponding Church and trumpet that can help us identify further of what is happening here. I suppose that is a story for a future time.

      • Bret (B.S.)

        ZionHerald;

        I understand the context as follows through chapter 6 into chapter 7, but the the fact that these are sealed before the winds of destruction are released in no way goes outside of the context.
        We can talk about different groups without changing the subject at hand. I don’t think I need to give examples because we do it all the time in speech.

        It seems pretty clear that this entire group is sealed before the winds are let loose… for the scripture states that his servants are to be sealed before the winds are let lousier and the number of those sealed were 144,000… This does not include ones who had the seal and died before the winds are released….
        The directive to go and seal his servants before the winds of destruction are let go indicates these are the ones sealed just before the winds of destruction are let loosed….

        After the discussion in chapter 6 of those who have been martyred and killed chapter 7 begins with a context changing statement “And after this”, then introduces the number of those who were to be sealed…. these 144,000 are the servants who are sealed at the time of the end…
        I pulled up several scholars who speak specifically about the language used here, and who state this is a group at the end times who are sealed completing the sealing work… I am not personally a scholar of linguistics but we cannot force the language to fit our doctrine…
        I do have a degree and have had to read and comprehend much in my schooling and line of work for a long period of time and the language here does indicate that others before the command to go forth and seal were included…

        There is very little to work with regards to this number that appears in only two different chapters of a highly symbolic book..
        In chapter 14 the context indicates that this group is upon Mount Zion prior than taking their position actually ruling as Kings and priests and this comes as no surprise since in Hebrews 12:22 speaks of those Christians in the 1st century congregation as already having come to Mount Zion and this is obviously before dying and taking their position in the Kingdom….

        • Bret (B.S.)

          I should have said this group (144,000) is sealed after the command to go forth and seal but before the winds of destruction were let loose… And the context of chapter 6 is changed with the simple statement in ver 1 of chapter 7 “After this I saw” or “After these things”…. Here a new picture is introduced…

    • Anonymous

      Which leads me to conclude that the “Great Crowd” an the “144,000” are the same group

      • Bret

        Anonymous;

        I certainly agree with you!

        Rev 7:1-3 gives us the picture of the Angel descending with the “seal of the living God”, and comanding the Angels holding back the winds of destruction to hold off until the servants/slaves have been sealed…

        Again the context says that the Angel descends with the seal and then before the winds of destruction are let loose the slaves are sealed and the number of those sealed is 144,000…. Revelation 21 helps us to see how symic 12 and 144 really is…

        Clearly Rev 7 indicates the 144,000 (in my opinion the complete church) are sealed in the last days and this Angel didnt descend back in the 33 CE erra of pentecost to seal 144,000 from that point until now…

        In Revelation 14 we see once again the collective group upon Mount Zion symbolic of there being enrolled in the household of God…
        Heb 12:22 helps us to understand that those 1st century Christians who were alive and living were said to have already “come to” or arrived at Mount Zion…

        So Revelation 14 is symbolic and the context indicates that Armegeddon has not even taken place yet, but this is the Church living at the end times…

        I believe the Great Crowd is one and the same since the symbolic complete church (144,000) or sealed christians are seen before the winds of destruction are released and then the Great Crowd is seen after the Great Tribulation has passed and they are already standing before the theone…

        • Bret

          Great crowd

          I do not leave out the possibility that the great crowd is the nations of mankind who after coming out ot the great tribulation have submitted to Christ authority and after having. Ome through the tribulation begin to wash their robes by demonstrating faith in Christ (Rev 22:14) they are symbolically celebrating the festival of booths, which indicates coming out of bondage (Zech 14:16-21, Rom 8:19-22).
          I only consider this option because the great company does not seem to include those who are resurrected from times past but only those who come out of the tribulation..

    • Bret,

      I think the number as literal or symbolic often distracts people from the more important aspect of the “four winds”, because whether symbolic or literal and whatever it shows God has an exact number no matter what it may be. As you may be able to tell the seven seals have a “killed number” completion and the whole seven seals is a divine completion description, nothing of most importance is left out of it.

      Because in time the final anointed get their seal by completing Revelation 10:11 command of God to pronouce the final warning a number of years from now and the number of years as Daniel 8:13-14 plays out those initial years as JW Org global desolations, knowing this will affect the chances of beign successful in final approval. This seal is the one Paul got when he got the affirmation from God, not just the token of the initial anointing.

      So we know if they are all sealed it is AFTER the final warnign has completed. It can be dtermined that warning precedes world government 8th King completion by at least 1260 days following the Daniel 8:14 temple judgment.

      That completion gathering of all things has to parallel Matt24:31 as well (and Rev14:14-16), for the “tribulation of those days” is NOT “cut short” by Christ. Christ arrives AFTER the “tribulation of those days” resolves into the Revelation 13:3 “sword stroke got healed” in the comign world war’s “world peace” resolution of 1Thess5:1-3.

      Thus the period under 8th King world government will also be the time they have 10% global weapons system control, so it will be FAR MORE DANGEROUS than the world war that resolves to present world government. And THAT is that “four winds” in the final “one hour” of Rev17:12, and THAT is the period Christ arrives into to cut short the great tribulation in its final phase also marked as the four winds” of both Rev7 and Matt24:31.

      Tha final warning is ceased by ascendant world government as per Rev11:7-12, and Daniel 12:11, and all final anointed seals will be accomplished BEFORE the depopulation attempt “four winds” of complete world government. And then that Rev7 finality of 144000 complete and great crowd complete is all finalized by Christ.

      World government complete, functional (Dan11:45, Rev17:8-18) and “world peace” stated (1Thess5:1-3; Dan12:11), triggers Christ’s arrival, not before, but AFTER it completes. That takes several more years.

      THAT is the simple main point that the final warning will carry after JWs are recovered from the JW org downfall which is comign up as Daniel 8:13-14, easily 15 years prior to 8th King world governemnt compeltion thus giving enough time to complete Rev10:5-11, Rev11:3.

      You can test this in the future or ask God now and he will affirm it for you. (Rev1:1; Eze33:33) It STARTS with JW org downfall of Daniel 8:131-4 you can use that as the first sign this is the truth, soon. Do NOT buy the modern JW and other religious pretexts that this world war is “the end” for its is not as 2Thess2:1-2, Matthew24:6 and Luke 21:9 all attest.

      They want Christians to think this is “doomsday”, but as per Rev13:3 the “doomsday sword stroke” comign up will ehal into full 8th King world government and that final warning will emerge from JW rubble to also go forth well before the real end of the world government rival.

      This time we need to know (Rev1:1) all this BEFORE it happens, if we told this prophecy after the fact as has been the case in the past, of course, it would be TOO LATE.

      This time, it comes out in advance.

      TJ

      • Bret

        TempleJudgment;

        Thanks for your added thoughts… I have to say in my opinion the JW Organization does not deserve that much attentiin anf I dont think it plays any importance in the outworking of Jehovah’s plans…
        I believe the JW organization is no different than the Catholic, Baptist or any other nominal church group that is a part of Babylon the great other than the Lord calling persons out from her..

        • Brett,

          They are not any different, the whole thing has been used by God and all parts have to devolve into wildbeast aiding apostasy. JWs were just the last ones to devolve since 1991. (by 1976 apostate GB lead; Dan11:32a; Dan8:12)

          But, JWs did take the fianl prophecy to Anglo-American national system development point, now present in official form since WW1 made it history.

          JWs did not ignore Daniel 2,7,8,11,12, Rev13,17 because those 7th King “King South” progressions are active right now and Christendom has been covering them all up by omission as their goal is to sell 666 world government of the future as if “God’s World Government”.

          JWs problem is the same infiltration to cover up now among JWs the globalism basis of world government that globalizes fully into the final “King North” form. So JWs will have to be sacked as Daniel 8:13-14 next, to allow the progress to continue past the GB subversion of Daniel 11:32a. The GB will eb destroyed, and that on CNN for all to see, so you’ll know at that time, this is real.

          So everything JWs have mapped so far is correct except for the Daniel 8 and 11 apostasy and 3rd UN event prophecies as foretold as was League of Nations 1919 and United Nations 1945. The GB is coverign up Daniel 8 and 11 final world government gloablization prophecy as the “throwing truth to the earth” of Daniel 8:12, as the “smooth word” unit of Daniel 11:32a.

          The GB are anointed of Satan to complete their “faithful slave” lying blasphemy right among JWs as moder man of lawlessness and sons of destruction for they betray JWs to FEMA in the future in the US JW-org takedown sector. It is Daniel 11:41 and Dan8:13 and it goes global for 3.19 years peak JW org desoaltions and legal corporate dissolution for heavy crimes including pedophile stuff and rackets and launderign charges to also come out soon to the tune of a 30 BILLION dollar WTBTS skim job.

          So JWs have made it all far more real than Christendom who is fully infiltrated and controlled for 666 world government promotions of the future as they mark their flocks 666 for Satan in all who accept these final deceptions. They are part of BTG have to ride a COMPLETE “scarlet wildbeast” which completes as fully globalization completed world government in the future like +15 years from now, after this final world war “sword stroke” resolves into the global healing to promote world governemtn the “heakler” system.

          If they try to sell you world government as if “Jehovah’s World Government” after the US/UK global crash and world war cycle comign up, it is all 666 services infiltrated corporate religions.

          Obviously, the 666 8th King world government is what the US/UK 7th King falls into the rise of. (Rev13:3; Rev17:8-13; Dan11:41-43)

          World government completes before they exterminate global religions as BTG, so those are the final signs. (Rev17:11-18) World government completion is the final signal of the Christ arrival especially in their post BTG “world peace” mantra sales period of 1Thess5:1-3.

          The final forecast has to emerge before all these things take place (Rev1:1), or of course, it would be too late and all Christians would be rejected because they would not perform the second of the two witnesses “prophesy again” (Rev10:11) final warning.

          In time, the drawn out final cycle will make some current doubters become assured complete world government is the 666 allegiance test (Rev3:10; Rev13:15-18; Rev14:9-11) and it will trigger Christ arrival AFTER its signal global completion and they will not be nice guys, hence “four winds” and Matt24:21-22.

          We have over 15 years left at this time.

          TJ

  • Shannon

    if you turn to Revelation you will find the greates crowd is before the throne of Godto the position of the great crowd is not on earthalso at Armageddon the religious system as well as all the governments of this world will be destroyed when Christ comes in His glory and brings his kingdomthe final judgment is until after Satan is released Ezekiel chapter 38 showsthat the prophecy of Gog and Magog happens after the release of Satan from the abyss the thousand year reignthe witnesses hi so far away from the truth especially loveappalls description of love you said Oh you could have many gifts prophecy teaching but if you do not have to love you become clanging symbol I do not have Bible students in my area I associate with do Mormons because they believe so very close to the Bible students in some of what the witnesses teachI do feel comfortable being able to fellowship with men

    • The Jerusalem New comes DOWN from Heaven to Earth. God;s Kingdom COMES to Earth; Matt6:10

      So, by that time the “throne” and temple” is accessible right here it all has come down to by that time:Planet Earth.

  • Ken

    Hello all,the Bible students teach that the ancient worthies,such as Abraham,Isaac and Moses for example, will be resurrected on earth in perfect human bodies, therefore, not having to wait till the end of the 1,000 years and pass the final test like the rest of mankind.My question is: what’s the reasoning behind that belief?

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Ken – You are not one to ask easy questions. I will give you my thoughts. The world of mankind will walk up the highway of holiness to perfection at their own pace during the 1,000 years. However, imagine if the ancient worthies were not resurrected perfect and yet they are to be rulers in all the earth. Couldn’t they end up making a lot of mistakes? Can you imagine others attaining perfection before they did?

      I think the following scripture seems to indicate that the bride of Christ will work with the Ancient Worthies to bring them up to perfection to perpare them for their work. Heb 11(NASV) “39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.” This statement, “apart from us they would not be made perfect” means to me that the anointed who have been prepared, like their master, to be merciful and sympthathetic priests will be in a postion to help them to perfect thier characters, making them ready for perfect bodies.

      Perhaps the following scriptures that speak of the role of the ancient worthies in the future Paradise Earth Kingdom will be of interest to you.

      Isa 32:1 – Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule with justice. (NKJ)

      Ps 45:16 – Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, whom You shall make princes in all the earth. (NKJ)

      Isa 1:26 – I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.” (NKJ)

      Matt 8:11 – And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (NKJ)

      Ps 47:9 – The princes of the people have gathered together, the people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; he is greatly exalted. (NKJ)

      Jer 3:15 – And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. (NKJ)

      Jer 23:4 – I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the LORD. (NKJ)

      Dan 12:13 – But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. – (NKJ)

      • Ken

        Actually that makes a lot of sense Peter,thanks!The Jw’s teach that their elders will be the “princes in all the earth”:)

      • Cazenovi (Bible Student & JW)

        This is great. I think the Ancient Worthies will be brought up to perfection within the first 7 years of the Millennium pictured by the 7 year Dividing of the Promised Land in 1399-1392 BC.

  • max

    To Humbleman;

    My answer is I don’t know.

  • humbleman

    Hi Max in the 2000 years since Christ. do you believe there has only been 144000 anointed Christians ? please don’t give me any long answers lets keep this simple for the viewers. a simple yes or no will do after your answer then i will give you some scriptures to explain to me. if jws have the truth you will be able to explain them easily. Thanks bro humbleman

  • max

    Ken; I found some more help for your 144,000 being a bigger group going to heaven.

    Two things.

    1. Catholics came up with the idea a long time ago.

    2. If you read the beliefs listed on this site, they say 144,000 are the bride. I am sure you want to get in unity.

    Take care.

  • max

    To Observer and Ken;

    Ken first. It is my understanding that you finished reading Vol I? On page 214 and 241 it shows the great crowd which no one could number going to heaven next to the bride, the faithful chosen ones. Re 14:1; 17:14 It does not make sense to say one group is a great crowd which no man could number, and then give an exact amount for the other group.

    Consider 1 Chro 24:1 and 18,”Now the sons of Aaron had their divisions.”for Maaziah the twenty-fourth.” Do you think God wanted that 24 priestly division? Or should I say, I don’t hink he wanted that exact number? I take it as it says. Plus that helps us understand that the 24 elders in heaven represent the 144,000 priests clasa. Consider 1 Pe 2:9; Re 4

    Hi Observer , that was addressed on quite a few posts back. But will try to answer again. Ps 15:1-5 please read. “walking faultlessly.” Compare Noah 6:9; Deut 18:13; Mat 5:48
    “in your tent.” Compare Re 21:3 That is mankind on earth as guest in his tent. Their prayers reach him in his temple, but they come from earth.
    Ps 43:3,”Send out your light and your truth. May these themselves lead me. May they bring me to your holy mountain and to your grand tabernaclr.”

    Ps 3:4,”With my voice I shall call to Jehovah himself, And he will answer me from his holy mountain.”

    Ps 11:4,”Jehovah is in his holy temple.” Compare Is 6:1; Mic 1:2; Hab 2:20; Re 7:15 continue,”Jehovah- in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men.”

    Were down here, he is up their. When I pray to him today, he could be in his holy temple, but my prayers reach him here from earth.

  • Ken

    Sorry all but I’m just full of questions! How can the 144,000 be a literal number when: 1)they are all considered virgins(if implied in a physical sense), is impossible since many of them are/were married. 2)If you multiply 12,000 from each tribe by 12(the number of tribes) obviously you get 144,000 but since this number is derived from 12 SYMBOLIC tribes how can it possibly be literal? Personally I think the number 144,000 is symbolic of the perfect number of people Jehovah will resurrect to heaven to represent all the various races,creeds,kinds,personalities,etc; of all mankind.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Ken – The New Creation, begotten of the holy spirit are called anointed in the New Testament. Anointing is with oil (symbolic of the holy spirit). The wise virgins had extra oil, symbolic of being filled with the spirit. In the new testament, virgins are symbolic of the anointed being faithful to the Lord, in contrast to harlotry (i.e. Jezebel) being joined to human governments and institutions. This is spiritual adultery – faithful to earthly organizations, systems and governments, rather than to the Lord. Numbers in Revelation are genernal literal, but connected with symbolic figures. For example there are literaly 7 trumpets in Revelation. The number 7 is literal, the trumpets are symbolic. In Rev 12 the 42 months are understood to be the same as Daniels 1260 days (42 x 30). The number is literal, however each day represents a year, as with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.

  • Observer

    In the NWT Interlinear, Rev 7:15, the word “temple” is translated as “divine habitation.” The “divine habitation” would obviously refer to the Most Holy in the Tabernacle, the area of the Divine Presence. Therefore this class “the Great Crowd” is definitely in heaven and not on the earth as JW’s teach.

    • By that time New Jerusalem has COME DOWN to earth. So, they do not have to be “in heaven” to be “before the throne” because God’s final “tent” “tabernacle” is Rev21:3-4 “with mankind”.

      Looks like God liked Eden, so he is restoring it and staying there forevermore as he was starting to do in Genesis.

      Of course, he is God Almighty and heaven is his KIngdom place, but he will have a far greater seamless interaction with Earth as was the objective in Eden. The truth is God, Christ and angels LIKE to hang out on Earth. It is what it is, THEY LOVE IT!

      They will not leave this time. Even poor Satan fell in love with this place.

      Think about it.

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        Temple hello. I have just been reading and enjoying all the conversations with friends but I have to press “like”😃😁🐵 on this comment.
        They do indeed love Earth. I was just thinking last night that wow, we might just be the beginning of his crowning creation and we will eventually populate the other planets! I say if we are first of this kind then we are some “Special” creatures indeed! Being free from the governing thoughts of the witnesses has helped me appreciate and love the fact I am born now as possibly one of the first billions of earthlings.
        I can talk directly to him now as my father thru Christ and it feels good. I can think of all the possibilities and rejoice in the prospects.
        I even ask him for help and things in a different way than before. He is rich and I ask him according to his grandeur now and He answers.
        So so wake up and see your comments were right in line with my thoughts last night as I gazed at the planets.
        This scripture has new meaning for me. (Sorry to change subject, now I will just read.) Take care.

        John 16:23, 24 New Living Translation (NLT)
        “23 At that time you won’t need to ask me for anything. I tell you the truth, you will ask the Father directly, and he will grant your request because you use my name. 24 You haven’t done this before. Ask, using my name, and you will receive, and you will have abundant joy.”

        • 1/2

          We need to picture these triple sword promises of God Almighty as if they are right outside our door and this world is trying to maintain the whole death illusion, we need to grasp and grip this with a spiritual vigor to fight to the death if need me, the good fight of the spirit, because this is all coming in Christ BILLIONS of times beyond all this religious confusion which has now totally scattered anointed and people globally.

          We need to understand this is all not “possible” with God, it is GUARANTEED to occur in his timing. And MORE, they have only revealed some basic subjects for us with faith to think about. We just have to ride out this final storm because all forms of God’s children there will be some who MUST see this all “we the living, who are surviving” quite alive. Not to just survive, but to start living forever, day # however long it had been until Christ arrived, the hope of all in time.

          Man [was] created in God’s image, so there is no way God will extinct his own image but merely pass it into the first Christ form offered in that sacrifice of himself as a perfect “last Adam” HUMAN being. He did not become human for no reason, it is the end goal for planet Earth’s humans to assume that form through an immortal spirit “Bride”. (Isa54 is about the children of Christ’s Bride)

          It really is a total Genesis 2.0, Matt19:18 Re Generation, re-creation. Which means as per Ezekiel 47, Rom8:18-22, Rev22, ALL CREATION is to be restored because God does nothing half vast. In fact at Ecclesiastes 3:20 Solomon plainly placed the animals that die as parallel of humans that die in the “one place” which is Sheol, or Hades. It was the one question in Ecclesiastes he asked and could not answer, because he did not know at that time Christ has the “keys of Hades”. But Christ has more than just the limited “Hades” access, he has the keys of “Death” ALSO!

          So, it is Biblical and hidden in the Bible, you have to search for it:

          (Isaiah 34:16-17) Search for yourselves in the book of Jehovah and read out loud: not one has been missing of them; they actually do not fail to have each one her mate, for it is the mouth of Jehovah that has given the command, and it is his spirit that has collected them together. 17 And it is He that has cast for them the lot, and his own hand has apportioned the place to them by the measuring line. To time indefinite they will take possession of it; for generation after generation they will reside in it.
          But Romans 8:18-22 is clear the “corruption” is the decay of global systemic death in which all things living groan, because at this time, all things living die in time. So yes he will resurrect all that has been given him, and that is everything

          (John 6:39) This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day.

          “Resurrect it”, so nothing will have its life robbed by Satan as the Heb2:14 “one having the means to cause [generic] death”, he instead is to be “brought to NOTHING”.

          • 2/2

            In so doing all life of Eden as per Ezekiel 47 is deathless, nothing “died” in the Eden garden and probably whole region of Eden, but that is God’s understanding, but “death” is an illusion as far as Edenic creatures, of which man is the top of the hierarchy:

            (Genesis 1:26-28) 26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” 27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

            Thus that blessing is now turned to the systemic death curse. But once the Heb7 “indestructible life” of Last Adam the “LIFE giving spirit” is plugged into Earth’s planetary life system, Eze47:9 “EVERYTHING will be ALIVE”. Of course the restoration of the animals is too much for some humans to bear at present as if some things are just “too good to be true” with God Almighty of whom “no declaration will be an impossibility” when it comes from his mouth and Word.

            But as God said for those who LOVE HIM, things coming are to be BEYOND IMAGINATION, so if you can imagine it in line with the life giving will of Ps133 Almighty God, then it will become BEYOND what you can imagine.

            And so all them stars and galaxies and so forth out there are but a small fraction of the true extent of these other divine projects and they are not just pretty lights for planet Earth, nor is their parallel with all of God’s angelic “stars” accidental in the Bible as “not one of them is missing” as far as God’s Ps147 purpose and the rest of the Promises of God and Christ.

            Thus we are not to be limited by worldly myths or religious hi-jacked overrides as their final goal is to sell world government 666 as if “God’s World Government” in all of BTG, as they must ride a COMPLETE “Scarlet Wildbeast” symbol become human world government reality, and that is the final “one hour” of these rivals and Satan.

            The second Christ arrives and goes into his maybe eventual “power and great glory” mode as per Zech12:6-9 sheep are healed on the spot, road kill will pop up quite alive for the “Evening Meal” of God, as he sacrifices their oppressors for the first feat of the restoration because God and Christ LOVE the creation many times more than humans, and they have been IN all of it at one time or another. Just a demons asked Christ permission to enter the swine, holy angels have had access to try all creation, they have flown as eagles, they have roared as lions, they have intimate one on one creative based knowledge of ALL CREATION!

            It was first created FOR CHRIST, and all of them are very much in understanding of “God’s image” in perfect human beings, and no way is the will of God to be shoved aside to please a Devil which fool thinks himself GREAT THAN GOD, not just God’s equal, but his superior. So, they will destroy them usurpers, and come back into their center piece Celestial Garden Planet the every place these issues were raised.

            It will become BEYOND IMAGINATION, and all doubts will be shoved aside as it occurs. The “joy set before” Christ is of course these things but also the fixing of every evil that has ever affected a human, to the last man, in every detail of the injustices, but with the purpose of healing sinners into the sinless form of Christ.

            But the legacy of a former record has to be faced as the process of sinlessness is offered to all mankind. “Judgment Day” is a good day, one in which ALL PROBLEMS, ALL CRIMES, everything, will be exposed and rectified in true justice forever.

            No “serial killer” is getting past the first sins that led to an eventual life of murder. No sin can be allowed to simply prosper to its next levels, all things will be rectified but with the goal of complete repentance and life for all.

            Of course, by that time, we will know why Christ is the “iron rod” and cannot let things slide as they do here, and people go into “boot camp” as in every day guidance hands on:

            (Micah 5:7-9) “And the remaining ones of Jacob must become in the midst of many peoples like dew from Jehovah, like copious showers upon vegetation, that does not hope for man or wait for the sons of earthling man. 8 And the remaining ones of Jacob must become among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of a forest, like a maned young lion among droves of sheep, which, when it actually passes through, certainly both tramples down and tears in pieces; and there is no deliverer. 9 Your hand will be high above your adversaries, and all enemies of yours will be cut off.”

            Believe it or not that is about the only direct description of immortal spirit DIRECT interaction among mankind in directly explicit form even with that easily understood symbology to show no criminals can continue to behave as they do now after the period of the tolerance is complete, people will have to obey God’s law and progress into righteousness. Now as per Psalm 133 we know the “dew” is eternal life application to Earth.

            But there are 100 other proofs this is the truth. God “opens his hand and satisfies the desire of every living thing” and in final form NOTHING desires to die, and just providing physical food would limit what the “life givign spirit” will do soon, and forevermore:

            (Revelation 22:1-3) And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations. 3 And no more will there be any curse.

            Now the blessing will flow to also all the “families of the ground” not just the “nations of the earth” so all creation has families that will then also benefit from that Genesis 1:26-28 cascading effect of eternal life under Last Adam. Wiping ALL TEARS from ALL EYES is the removal of all death plain and simple.

            Of course a world under Satan for 6000 years it is no surpirise they would call this crazy and impossible, because that Edenic fruit has not helped out one bit, but helped blind all men in sin and illusions of the Devil, of which death is his number one lie after the first lie, because it seemed to have reality to it, but it is unreal to God and Christ who shall no be taking over planet Earth forevermore.

      • Bret

        Temple;

        Some scriptures to consider with regards to anything coming down from Heaven especially when it is coming such a book as Revelation which is indeed a vision

        Rev 1:1,2 …….He sent his angel to reveal it to his servant John 2 who testifies to everything he saw in vision concerning the word of God, the Gospel preaching which came from Jesus Messiah.

        Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

        Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

        So in my reconciling thoughts and reason “New Jerusalem” coming down from Heaven in this sign or vision presented to John is saying this New Theocratic Government comes from God….

        • Yes, it will not be UN based as many corporate religions will try to say after the US global crash coming up.

          It is the Daniel 2 “stone” of Christ’s rulership for God until he hands it back.

          My point there is by the time the great crowd is delivered it will have come down to end the rival world government, and those people are the foundational eye-witnesses of the 1Thess1:6-10 “wonder” as they will see things millions of times beyond any Hollywood movie in power and associated visuals of 1000 Trillion angel in battle array covering planet earth and its skys in all forms of being as they offer Revelation 14:6-8 open salvation offer to all mankind BEFORE the conquest mode begins.

          Not all take that offer, but the great crowd do.

          By that time therefore those normally heavenly symbols are in descended mode FOREVERMORE and Rev22 is to become a “holy city” whose “gates” are accessible for human immortality, from the final tree in that prophecy which Adam and Eve were barred from.

          So it is a tree of more than just “eternal life” as Adam and Eve already had. But by Rev22 time in the deep future, it has to be humans who can access the “city by its gates” and they have to retain sinlessness to do it.

          Satan’s goal to to empty Earth of humans, it is not Gods will which is in Genesis 1, and Last Adam the new “Eternal Father” of that perfected mankind, even possible to become tested immortals too, but in human form as Christ would have gotten access to the tree oflife had his conquest of Satan not require death.

          Christ went further than Adam, the sacrifice is corresponding as a perfect sinless human being, but Christ has attined immortality too, so that has to be offered to all conquerors of Satan. That next tree is different than the Rev22:1-3 trees, it is the same as the Edenic Tree of Immortal Life.

          Then they never can be broken ever again. It is beyond just living forever.

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